Can we all agree on Scandinavia?

They were better when they were Vikings, raping and pillaging.

Do ya think we could all learn to spell it??

@Yellowdog When you decide to move there, let me know. You might just need a partner in crime once you arrive!!!

I remember everything you listed!!!

Sorry, but I don’t believe we can actually all agree on anything.

And back then, that wasn’t unity. That was a subculture trying to be heard. Plenty of people thought they ought to be arrested or otherwise silenced. It was called a protest movement because it didn’t accord with the mainstream.

So unity when your peeps control all branches of government.

Remember Mitch “One Term” McConnell…? I do and and what is good for the turtle…

No. There is minimal diversity in the population. Almost all white and Christian. Non-scandavians are looked down upon in society and have no way to get ahead.

The whites in Finland and Norway and Denmark and Sweden have national pride, sure, but the population distribution is pretty poor.

These would not be shining examples. (And I have been to all four of them. Of them, Denmark was the most diverse. Sweden, the worst.

“Once, America had unity…”

Hmmmm.
I would agree that we seemed to be on the right path, before Trump. As I’ve said before, I am not really angry with him. I am hugely disappointed with a third of our country though. That portion of our population, has been empowered by Trumpism, and now they feel free to embrace racism, separatism, bigotry, hate, intolerance, and greed. We took a MASSIVE step back, in race relations, with Trump stirring the shit.

As a child, I NEVER thought that I’d be ashamed to be an American. I’m getting REALLY close… That’s because of my fellow countrymen.

If you ask me, supporting Trump, is anti-American.

He represents the absolute worst parts of our society. I would just hate it, it the world thought I supported/was represented by Trumpism.

Given the obvious racism, bigotry, greed, war on the poor, war on the non-white-non-Christian agenda of the conservatives, I can only conclude that Trump supporters are similarly awful people. I no longer care about changing their minds. They are deplorable, or ignorant, or both. You can’t fix either….

Curious that you of all people would bring up Scandinavia, as the model for unity and contentment. And while the Canadians don’t walk around bragging about how well off they are, just try to find one willing to trade places with us. But ask yourself just what is it the Scandinavians have in great abundance, that we lack. Some believe it’s an homogeneous population, but I think THAT answer is just an excuse to avoid the dreaded S word.

Before Trump there was Obama. So are some of you saying we were better off then?

Why not Louis Farrakhan?

I remember a lot of diversity breaking barriers in the ‘70s and I think I was LOOKING for that when I voted for Obama. But Obama was NOT it. Martin Luther King was. Obama had nefarious connections. “God Damn America” Jeremiah Wright. A grinning picture with Farrakhan. The Obama/Hillary team had a mole in an opposition political party and the F.B.I. / D.O.J. are trying hard through redactions to protect this individual. Obama / Hillary LOOKED like they might have been what we were becoming back in the early ‘70s but it turned out a radically different direction

Before Trump there was indeed Obama. But here is the thing that everyone WILL agree on. Trump’s election would not be possible without the growing recognition that the quality of life for most of us is slipping. Your question is about discontent and pessimism in what is still the RICHEST COUNTRY ON EARTH. And I still insist that at its heart we should ignore the liberal vs. conservative sideshow and concentrate on why it is that fewer of our riches are being distributed equitably among us. Where is the money going? We should figure this out and SOON, because as difficult as it might be to contemplate, there are worse things than Trump in our future.

I think there’s a lot of hope to be found today. More people than ever are reaching higher levels of education, which is opening doors to new opportunities for many. There are current social conversations over issues involving gender, class, race, sexuality, etc., that are seeing real steps of progress (building on the progress won by people fighting the good fight in previous generations). Like, only a few years ago, gay couples still couldn’t even legally marry. Now they can, and that’s beautiful and wonderful. And we’re having frank discussions about issues like police brutality (and other places implicit bias crops up), and sexual harassment, and gender’s fluidity, and our impact on the environment, economic disparity, the still-present legacy of institutions like slavery, and I know I’m forgetting dozens of other important issues, but my point is that we are as a society making progress, working to knock down barriers in this country that hold people back. We’re not there yet. We’re not done with that work. And it’s sometimes uncomfortable work. But it’s work that’s still being done, that individuals working together are still doing (building on the progress of generations past), and that fact alone is reason for optimism (even in these past few years where things have seemed to regress to something far more bitter and pessimistic and backwards-looking).

But that hope has nothing to do with acts of performative patriotism, or overt national spirit. It has nothing to do with people thinking this country is the greatest on Earth. It’s people looking around and saying, simply, “Hey, this could be better, and I can help make it that way.” And those same people then rolling up their sleeves to get to work.

Trump’s rhetoric isn’t going to celebrate that, isn’t going to highlight that, isn’t going to show you that. He’s too focused on boosting his own reputation and making people see the world through fear and divisiveness. But it’s still there, and its heartbeat is strong and steady if you stop to listen for it.

@stanleybmanly, I still maintain that there is nothing we can all agree on. Nobody speaks for 100% of the people. In fact, nobody even speaks for me.

I agree that there has always been disagreement and things that we argue. And I’m not certain that my pessimism isn’t the inevitable product of aging. But when I look around, all I see is accelerating inequity and the desperation it fuels. To a large degree we baby boomers are shielded due to the good sense of the generation before us which endured the depression. Medicare and the fact that I came up when college and real estate were affordable are matters of luck. But I’m getting off topic. We will never all agree on anything, but guys like Trump or Hitler never get anywhere when times are good. The question is just how bad must things be for rational people to actually select such a man. And my answer is that if Trump can manage to be elected, things are almost certainly worse than we would prefer to believe.

@Soubresaut I applaud your optimism, but can’t bring myself to agree with you. Advances on the social front continue, but the momentum declines as more and more of us discover essentials increasingly unaffordable. Think about Mariah, and the fact that technically she has achieved the American dream. A kid in in her 20s, probably in the top 10% of the population income wise, yet unable to buy a house where she must live, and terrified that pig headed stupidity might prevail in depriving her of vital healthcare.

I’ve long been a fan of Scandinavia… and I agree I much preferred what seemed to be the cultural situation in the USA in the 1970’s to what it is today.

In fact, those sentiments from the 1970’s are still what I’d like and hope the US to get back to… but it’s also part of what has be upset about some of the conversations going around today. I think there are still plenty of good people with good spirit and positive will… but there are many elements that seem extremely unacceptable today too (for me mainly the blatant corporate power plays, government corruption, corporate news media, undermined civil rights, environmental issues, and the general acute stupidity and lies in our political conversations).

Did America have unity in the 1970’s? I remember huge anti-war protests and bitter divisions across the country. I would also doubt whether we can get much agree on the Scandinavian model which provides universal healthcare, free education and a social safety net that prevents people from falling too deeply into poverty. Way to go I would say but I don’t expect everyone to agree with me – especially in America.

I too am surprised to see you lauding Scandinavia as something to strive for. After all, many of the countries there have far-left policies such as single-payer healthcare, free education, and universal basic income (their populous is also some of the happiest in the world, but I’m sure that’s just a coincidence and not an indicator that such policies are good ideas~)

I don’t think I will ever understand why some people think you need to think America is perfect and beyond reproach in order to love your country. I show my respect for this country in the best way I know how – by recognizing its flaws and fighting to make it better. We’d be a more perfect union if we didn’t have people dying from preventable medical issues all the time because they can’t afford to see a doctor. How does acknowledging that make me in any way unpatriotic?

I recognize that there are other countries that have enacted policies that are working better for them than the policies we have, and so I do not call America the greatest country on Earth, but I strive to get it there by advocating for adopting some of those policies. Do I really have to believe my country is the best one in order to love it? Do you only love your best friend or do you love all your friends in different ways?

I don’t get it.

^Well said.

@flutherother . You’re talking about my basic political thinking. There’s no reason why Americans can’t have free health care, free education, and I would add dependable infrastructure.

Military spending, and ALL else should be afterthoughts.

@Yellowdog , Immigration to Scandinavian countries has been ramping up, though it is not as high yet as some other countries. If you are looking for a white refuge, you better pack your bags right away.

“I still insist that at its heart we should ignore the liberal vs. conservative sideshow and concentrate on why it is that fewer of our riches are being distributed equitably among us.”

Agreed, if we could all just start there I believe real solutions will manifest.

Lostinparadise: I said in my question that “even there I think much of what it is is getting lost—can’t we ALL strive to be more like THAT— ”

Sweden, for instance, is the second most violent country in Europe right now, because of immigration. Bringing outsiders into your haven doesn’t make them like you. People are people and bring their values, crimes, and way of life with them.

But I wouldn’t blame people of color on the problem. You appear a bit racist or are making racist assumptions. I worked in midtown, Memphis, which was truly multicultural, for over 20 years. Lots of diversity. Gangs and politics eventually made it unsafe, however,

Its funny how most ‘liberals’ are lily white and live in lily-white areas—. and call others racist, while harboring liberal views themselves (latent).

You must be getting your news from Fox and Trump. Sweden’s crime rate is not the highest in Europe and Sweden is far less violent than the U.S. Link

Its pretty hard to not be more violent than the U.S.

Six homicides on the news a day in my home town. I was shot in 2011 and held at gunpoint in 1998, Try taking THEIR guns away. Seriously. Please. Politicians needn’t worry they still have the votes.

Glad to hear I am wrong about Sweden. You made it nice again in my mind. I was referring to the cultural mindset and popular culture there and how the U.S. was more that way in the early 1970s—folk music and humanitarian causes, peace, the environment, and non-political social justice,

”...humanitarian causes, peace, the environment, and non-political social justice,”

You’re literally describing a large percentage of modern-day liberals. I don’t get it – those qualities seem charming to you in past people, but you constantly talk shit about the people who believe in it today.

The LEFT today is NOT what they pretend to be, or perhaps, even believe they are.

A lot of liberal blacks rally around Louis Farrakhan and the Black Lives Matter movement, which is anti-law enforcement. Sorry, but the police are NOT the bad guys. Nor is Farrakhan’s tirade against the Jews. The Jews helped found the NAACP and have tirelessly worked with blacks for social justice to this day, yet the militant black and pro-black liberals march to the demise of the Jews—and to the Muslims in the Middle East.

When we were TRULY concerned about racial equality, I was there. I have lived in a truly multicultural environment all my life. My parents were politically active and with Jewish Family Services. We helped abuse victims and worked for racial equality.

I do not believe, for instance, that the culture of the South is racist. Jim Crow and the way the Democrats were originally was a long time ago,

Remember when Joan Baez sang, “The Night they Drove Old Dixie Down” ? Can you imagine a modern “leftest’ approving that song? They pretty much have it banned,

The attacks against Trump are relentless. Can’t imagine yesterday’s left planting a mole in an opposing political party’s campaign, or weaponizing our intel or our IRS against anyone,

Hillary and Obama stand with Farrakhan. Not the liberals I support.

In a safer environment without as much crime and with rights not infringed upon by too-powerful political figures as we have in the U.S. I’d fit right in with the left.

Lol ok. What does “non-political social justice” even mean? Do you think the Civil Rights movement wasn’t viewed as “political” at the time? How about the first Pride parades? You might not see these things as political anymore because, through the lens of hindsight, these movements were so obviously justified. But conservatives in the day hated them. This is what y’all who call BLM a terrorist group, or call feminists feminazis, are gonna look like in a decade or two.

The first Gay Pride parade was deliberately offensive and perverted. I remember the “F” bomb being quite prominent.

When I was working in an Afterschool Activities program at a large church in midtown, Memphis—I had to take a nine-year-old over to where a church function was normally held.
Instead, the Ingram Lecture Series of Memphis Theological Seminary had one of those ‘Feminazis’ speaking.

The Nine-year-old asked me, when we left, “Is she leading an Nazi SS Rally?”
This kid was NINE YEARS OLD and untainted by bias or even understanding. SO its not just MY bias that makes them sound like Nazis.

Vagina hats and hate speech are NOT what I’d expect in liberals of earlier decades, nor from Jews working for Civil Rights or Social Justice, nor from most mainline churches such as the United Methodists nor in Scandinavia or even Europe, where leftist views are very ubiquitous.

I really, really think you might be letting your nostalgia blind you. Enjoy being on the wrong side of history ¯\(ツ)/¯

Thanks for the Shrug. Maybe it is just nostalgia and remembering safer times, or when radical change was needed.

Point being that hindsight makes it a lot easier to see that radical change was indeed needed. If you have your eyes open, you see that there is still a need for radical change. I hope that the next generation looks back on the present day and is horrified by our current levels of gun violence, mass incarceration, preventable medical deaths, etc. and feels thankful that their parents were working hard to make things better instead of being complacent with the state of things.

Your nostalgic musings about the wonderful ‘70s as a white boy in America, @Yellowdog, are…er…reflective of your privilege. As a white woman in America in the 70s, my perceptions were quite different. But you enjoy all that. <eye roll>

“This is what y’all who call BLM a terrorist group, or call feminists feminazis, are gonna look like in a decade or two”

I think what will happen is a realization that the left dropped the ball and did not police from within against the more extreme elements in BLM and third wave feminism. It will be noted that most of the alternative right were actually counter movements that likewise were not policed from within by conservatives.
I have a positive outlook for the future as long as people calm down and stop letting the loudest voices drown out reason and common sense.

@Yellowdog this question of yours, and your responses convince me of something that I have suspected of both you and @Seawuf575. And that is that both of you would abandon the dark side in a flash if you knew a little more and thought a little deeper. I cringe when either of you introduces Farrakhan as a totem of the left, because it instantly destroys your credibility and relegates the 2 of you to that class of people claiming conservatives defined by Hitler
worship. It also reveals a failure to understand that Farrakhan is in fact a fundamentalst CONSERVATIVE, and about as right wing an individual as you will ever see.

Maybe he should run for presidency with David Duke, then. We’ll pit them against Stormy for president on the Democrat side and see if Stormy wins over Farrakahn.

I’ll go watch the Brady Bunch. Tonight I’m taking my GF to Sears on a date

But the question should be asked. With the Scandinavian model sitting right there in front of us, and considering our own pressing shortfalls and needs, why is there such vehement resistance to adopting Scandinavian solutions? And why is that resistance greatest in places that would stand to benefit most on their implementation?

I do love dewey-eyed, rose-tinted nostalgia. It’s never accurate, not by a long shot, but it makes for such nice fantasy.

@stanleybmanly—I’m with you on the pessimism, I really am. I just also think there are a lot of people to root for, fighting the good fight from the “ground level” on up. @Mariah‘s one of them. People working for better opportunity, more equitable treatment, and a more compassionate society for everyone. There has always been opposition to it, and it’s always been hard, but people have made progress despite all that. My hope is simply that such progress will continue. Not nearly enough, not nearly fast enough, (I loathe that healthcare is at risk of being/is being taken away from people again, rather than its access improved) but I’ll take what I can get. Perhaps especially because of all the bullshit going on.