What is your REAL concern about the opposing political party -- and -- ?

@Yellowdog

Major concern for Dems-
While the political opposition generally views Trump or either party as about equally out of touch — with about 80 to 90 percent saying so — the Democratic Party is viewed as far more out of touch by Democrats than Trump or the GOP are by Republicans.

Reeves himself points to the Democratic uproar when President Obama proposed a relatively modest change in a tax-based mechanism to help pay college costs. The change in what are called 529 College Savings Plans was designed to make the program more advantageous to people with moderate incomes and less so for those with high incomes. An estimated 70 percent of the tax benefits of 529 plans currently go to families with incomes above $200,000.
The moment Obama suggested the reform, prominent Democrats from both the House and Senate were inundated with angry complaints from affluent constituents. They pressured Obama to drop the proposal. In less than a week, he did.

Major concerns for Reps-
Trump is gearing up for 2020 and will more than likely win.

Senate can’t get it together on issues like bump stocks.

Statements issues from Trump change daily, such as with DACA.

When you look at the future of the Republican Party, I think that we would be foolish to not see that we’re heading into trouble,” said Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a retiring Republican who represents a diverse Florida district. “Very few women are running on the Republican Party ticket for office. Far greater numbers of women are identifying themselves as being in the Democratic Party. Minorities that have always been, traditionally, a group that we should really be going after—I don’t see that we really have a recruiting program that’s active to get minorities involved in our party.”
Ros-Lehtinen said the GOP seems unable to adapt to an increasingly diverse electorate.

I believe the strength of America is the principle of equality of opportunity. That means everyone starts out at the same place and where the end up is where they should be. This mirrors survival of the fittest in nature and produces the best economy and society overall—a society where you can “make it if you try hard.”

The biggest problem I have with Republicans (and with establishment Democrats) is they’ve essentially been bought by big corporations and the wealthy elite. They are putting their thumb on the scale to make sure the starting line isn’t fair at all. If you’re born poor, black, sick, etc. then you’re not starting out the race anywhere near the same as if you’re the son of an oil exec who can buy you into Harvard despite not being the best applicant. What that does is circumvent the survival of the fittest mechanic and establishes a much more rigid class system. Sure it’s POSSIBLE to rise from the bottom all the way to the top, but it’s much harder than it should be. There are many potentially amazing CEO’s who could be making amazing companies and growing the economy, but didn’t quite make it because her seat was given to someone less deserving but with family connections. This makes the whole country weaker as a result. In that same vein, companies have been allowed to grow too big with mergers/acquisitions that should never been allowed. Diverse competition in the marketplace is good for consumers and the economy as a whole. When entire sectors are completely dominated by just 3–4 companies, the innovation and drive to compete slows to a crawl. Companies that have monopolies or sectors with Oligopolies are unhealthy to the economy, innovation, and consumers. They can exert too much political influence to push special interests at the expense of public interest.

Repubilican polices (and establishment Democrats) are pushing to exacerbate this process. Instead of doing everything we can to make sure that every kid has a fair shot, they’re doing everything they can to skew the game in favor of their donors and rigging the game. A tiny, lucky few may push through against all odds and prove that it’s still possible to rise far above the class you were born into. Conservatives will point to them as proof that the system works, but statistically these cases are going to become even fewer than they are now, which is much less than it was in our grandparent’s day. See this article for more background: You’re twice as likely to live the American Dream in Canada.

Conservative policies like hardline stances on crime, the war on drugs, stop and frisk, for profit prisons, privatizing schools, supporting payday lenders, fighting unionization, gerrymandering, healthcare, raiding education budgets to give tax breaks to billionaires etc. all contribute to the shameful fact that it’s much harder to achieve the American Dream in the US than in other western countries.

I consider myself a fiscal conservative. I think making investments in the American people themselves through Medicare for all, Tuition free education at public universities, assistance with childcare, is a wise use of taxpayer dollars that will pay dividends back in GDP and tax revenue over the decades to come. Giving billionaires tax breaks does very little for the economy, neither does wasting billions on unnecessary military spending, and keeping huge numbers of Americans locked up for non-violent crimes.

Your answers have been better than my question, I have disagreed with a few things but I will hold to being nonjudgemental or debating talking points, The point here is to understand positions

Excellent article on Canada

They are all closeted, light brown hobby fascists, that need to be stopped.

@Yellowdog If you notice, both @gorillapaws and I don’t put ourselves in either party 100%, so I think our pov’s could be different than many on this site.

Great Question.

So everyone here already knows that my #1 issue is healthcare. Republicans are going to have to get their shit together on healthcare before I could ever even entertain voting for one.

From my point of view, the ACA was progress, but was not even close to being “radical” enough. The progress made by the ACA prevents about ~30,000 deaths per year, but there still remains some ~45,000 deaths per year that can be attributed to people not being able to access health insurance (for perspective, that puts uninsurance in the top 10 causes of death in America). We need to be moving forward towards closing that gap by implementing stronger healthcare legislation, such as adopting a single-payer system, or even just the baby step of introducing a public option.

Laissez-faire Republicans like Paul Ryan, however, do not even agree with me about the direction we need to be moving in. He wants to move backwards by repealing the ACA. Thank goodness he has failed, but this administration has still done massive harm in the last 1.5 years. Every single change to healthcare policy since Trump took office has made healthcare less accessible. The uninsurance rate is rising for the first time since 2016. Premiums are rising for those who still have coverage. The government is also spending more on healthcare. We have gotten worse in every possible metric. 16,000 deaths per year can be attributed to this administration’s actions in healthcare.

Now your Average Joe Republican is not complicit in this in the way someone like Ryan or Trump is. Y’all’s biggest crime is ignorance. I get that healthcare is complex, but throwing up your hands and saying I don’t understand it so I’ll just trust in our lord and savior Trump to pull some solution out of his ass, is not responsible behavior. Read an article or god forbid a book. Educate yourself and then stop voting for people who either have literally no idea what they’re doing (Trump) or have an actual boner for killing poor people (Ryan).

Do I sound angry? Does my tone turn you off from my point of view? Sorry bout that. It’s hard to stay calm when your life is in danger and large swaths of your country don’t give a single shit.

@Mariah “Now your Average Joe Republican is not complicit in this in the way someone like Ryan or Trump is. Y’all’s biggest crime is ignorance. I get that healthcare is complex, but throwing up your hands and saying I don’t understand it so I’ll just trust in our lord and savior Trump to pull some solution out of his ass, is not responsible behavior. Read an article or god forbid a book. Educate yourself and then stop voting for people who either have literally no idea what they’re doing (Trump) or have an actual boner for killing poor people (Ryan).”

Let’s pretend I’m all about Trump for a second. What would you have me do to help you, since my only recourse is to either protest, or join the political system to foment positive change?
And do you believe that your insults would motivate me to help change things?

1. Educate yourself on healthcare. I can point you towards lots of excellent resources, if you’re asking in good faith.

2. Undestand that a vote for people who plan to repeal the ACA is a vote to kill 30,000 of your fellow countrymen, annually. Then vote your conscience.

3. Hell yeah, protest.

It’s not my job to be your motivator. 90% of the time on Fluther I discuss this in a calm and rational manner, as you well know from being on this site for quite a long time. I have off days now and then, I’m human, fucking sue me. Something about being sleepless and terrified for 1.5 years straight tends to put a person on edge. If you read my figures above and the biggest thing you took away from it was “wow this girl is rude” then reevaluate your priorities.

We are still under the Affordable Care Act—healthcare is WORSE now for many people than it was in 2014 and 2015.

The Republicans worked on this early on, and neither Republicans nor Democrats would do ANYTHING but obstruct any improvement or working on or dismantling the plan. I don’t think Trump is to blame here. Nothing was perfect, but anything better that the Trump team came up with was described as worse than Hitler.

The Affordable Health Care act sent most people VERY high premiums and deductibles, Some believe it was set up to fail, in order to collapse and we’d go single-payer—which would actually be better than the Affordable Care Act.

@Mariah So I’m supposed to care about you or the 50,000 dying but not babies? You understand how that rationale does’t work for Reps?

Based on available state-level data, approximately 893,000 abortions took place in the United States in 2016—down from approximately 914,000 abortions in 2015.

@KNOWITALL Calling a fetus a baby is disingenuous. If I throw a pine cone into a fire, I’m not guilty of deforestation. If I ejaculate into something other than a vagina that’s ready to conceive that doesn’t make me a mass murdering serial killer. When my fiance has her period, she’s not giving birth to a stillborn. The potential for person-hood isn’t the same as person-hood. Conflating a microscopic organism that has the potential to develop into a person with an actual, living, breathing child is disingenuous.

@Yellowdog The reason for “The Affordable Health Care act sent MOST people VERY high premiums and deductibles” is not true; most people opted out and pay no health insurance were young healthy adults. The older people with higher costs for healthcare were left behind to pay; fewer people paying the insurance companies, the total cost for everyone now has few people to pay.

@gorillapaws To quote @Mariah “It’s hard to stay calm when your life is in danger and large swaths of your country don’t give a single shit.”

To Reps abortion is as important as healthcare.

@KNOWITALL Your life is in danger? I’m having a difficult time following your logic.

@gorillapaws No, the babies (or for you the ‘fetus.’)

We care about different things, that’s the point. I honestly don’t see it as insurmountable, if we could work together calmly and rationally.

Funny though, how you stop caring about the glorified tumors, once they have popped out.
Affordable medical care for them? SOCIALISM!
Social welfare for them if they are in poor families? SOCIALISM!
Free, quality, public education? SOCIALISM!
Reasonable gun regulation to make society safer for them to grow up in? WAAH MY PENIS EXTENSION!

@ragingloli How do you know that I don’t care about children?
If I voted Republican do you believe that means I don’t care about children?
If I voted Democrat does that mean I condone abortion?

To be clear, I was on the ACA as was my husband, and I have voted for Democrats. I have LGBT friends and I don’t attend church often. And you see how you guys are treating me. Ironic.

@KNOWITALL The argument if a zygote should be considered a person is completely ambiguous. It’s ambiguous philosophically, scientifically, and even Biblically (See Exodus 21:22–25 where causing a miscarrage is treated as property and not the same as murder). What gets my goat is that pro-life people are SO FUCKING CERTAIN they’re right on the issue that they insist on imposing their belief system—without any concrete proof—on everyone else. I certainly support a woman’s right to pursue a pregnancy to term that’s virtually guaranteed to be a stillbirth because she believes the fetus is a baby even though I personally disagree and think it’s a bad decision. That’s what choice means.

But no, the pro-lifer insists that they’re correct, without being able to provide a justification that passes logical scrutiny beyond: “Because I say so. I think it’s a baby so it’s a baby. period. end of discussion. I don’t care if you die in an ally with a coathanger abortionist because I’ve voted to deny you access to safe medical services. Fuck you. Praise be to Jesus.”

@Yellowdog please educate yourself. Please take ten minutes to watch this video before you reply to me: https://youtu.be/CiT9wIdgi-A

Yes, the ACA caused some problems for some people; namely, some people saw their premiuns rise considerably. As the video explains, this was caused because insurers are now forced to cover expensive sick people. Before the ACA, those people just died. Now they can live, and as a result, premiuns have risen. Most people with souls will acknowledge that this is a reasonable trade-off. Even still, it is a real problem for many people, which is a great reason to support moving to a single-payer system. It is not a good reason to support simply repealing the ACA without providing any kind of replacement plan, as many Republicans do, and it is not a good reason to support tearing the ACA to shreds and enacting in its place a far more austere plan with fewer protections for sick people, as the current Congress has tried to do many, many times over the last year.

Furthermore, this administration’s sabotage of the ACA has caused less people to be insured AND premiums to rise. So they’re not making a trade off in the way that the ACA did. They’re making healthcare objectively worse by every possible measure.

@KNOWITALL I do get it, if you genuinely see a zygote as something that is in every way equivalent to a grown human, you have quite a quandry on your hands. I seriously get where you’re coming from and it’s a tough position to be in. Personally, I do not view an embryo that may not have even developed the neural structures required to have emotions or be self-aware as something that is equivalent to an adult or child who has emotions, thoughts, ideas, memories, a personality, has friends and family who love them, is a part of their community…I just do not see them as the same. I also have severe issues with infringing on women’s bodily autonomy by forcing their medical decisions with regards to pregnancy. But that’s just my view. I get that we fundamentally disagree on this and probably never will see eye to eye and I’m not here to convince you to become pro-choice. But, it is possible to be against abortion and also for single-payer healthcare. You as an individual do not have to choose between those two issues. I do understand though that in 90% of cases you will not find a candidate to vote for who is both anti-abortion and pro-single-payer, so do what you must with your vote. But please do be aware of what you’re voting for when you vote against universal healthcare. I would be forever appreciative if you could find it in yourself to vote in favor of those of us who are already here and have lives that they don’t want to lose. I will also note that single-payer would greatly increase access to birth control and other family planning resources to prevent many, many unwanted pregnancies in the first place. It would also give those children greater access to healthcare after they’re born.

@Mariah
You’re correct about this though, so what you’re asking us to do is go against our religious beliefs. Let me ask you this-just as an example, if you got your preference on any issue, like healthcare coverage for all, would you be willing to compromise on making abortion illegal again (unless life of mother, rape or incest- willing to leave it to a judge.)

“I do understand though that in 90% of cases you will not find a candidate to vote for who is both anti-abortion and pro-single-payer, so do what you must with your vote.”

@KNOWITALL Nobody is asking you to go against your religious beliefs. Pro choice advocates support your decisions to make religious choices about your own body. They just oppose you making choices about OTHER people’s bodies for them.

So FUCKITALL once the child emerges?

I hate abortions. But I understand their role. Ideally they would never happen. I would be totally happy to improve the social safety net if that meant I paid more in taxes.

Are you cool with paying more in taxes?

People this is not about abortion-smh! This is an example of how each parties mindset is opposite and how polarizing it can be for each party.

@KNOWITALL You’re the one who took us there…

@gorillapaws That was an example, as I said earlier in response to the Q. smh

Q What are your concerns, and what would make you feel better about the opposing party if they did differently?

That would be a horrible decision to have to make, but, gun to my head, yes I would trade abortion rights for universal healthcare.

I would mourn the women who would die of infections or bloodloss after seeking unsafe, illegal abortions, something that has been shown to occur any time access to safe, legal abortion is restricted. I would mourn the women who would be permanently injured by pregnancy because your idea of a law only leaves room for medical abortion if the woman is going to die otherwise (I fall into this camp. If I ever were to get pregnant, my body would likely be ruined even worse than it already is, leaving me with permanent pain). I would mourn for the children who would be raised in homes that cannot provide for them and never wanted them. More than anything, I would mourn the loss of one of our fundamental rights: the right to make our own medical decisions.

But yeah. If I had to give all that up to save 50,000 people a year and eliminate one of the top ten causes of death in this nation, I’d make that trade.

I want to add that even if you cannot, in today’s political climate, find a candidate who supports single payer healthcare who your conscience will allow you to support, you are not unempowered from fighting for universal healthcare if it sounds like a worthy cause to you. You can indicate in polls and letters to your representatives that you would like them to support single-payer. They (are supposed to) listen to their constituents on the issues. If they begin hearing calls for universal healthcare in Red America, maybe someday soon there will be a candidate who is both anti-abortion and pro-single-payer.

I’ll close now with some food for thought if you really believe you are practicing good Christianity by voting Republican:

Those who give to the poor will lack nothing, but those who close their eyes to them receive many curses.

— Proverbs 28:27

The Republicans want to be the one and only governing party/entity.
They want to do away with the idea of “separation of church and state.” They want a religious state!!
As much as they might say that they believe in a two-party system, it’s just a cover up, i.e. BS.

@Mariah Actually if we agreed, that would be 943k people saved between healthcare and abortions, minus any who died regardless of course.

I’ll gently remind you that you don’t know what I do for the poor, but many people do, nor do I only vote Republican. The irony of someone quoting a bible verse to me about the poor, especially a liberal, is not lost on me I promise.

Quoting that was not about you personally but about the people you vote for. Just saying, we all know how kind Republican policies are to the poor!

I was not eligible for the ACA because of my INCOME. I was given a letter from the Health Insurance Marketplace saying that I could not be penalized for not having it but that I didn’t qualify.

I was taken care of by the Church Health Center for two years. I was severely disabled from a gunshot wound. Obamacare did NOT care and neither did Obama.

A BILL COLLECTOR out of all things helped me get on disaBILLity, or maybe it was Nova Nordisc I forget. The only good thing Obama did was be the first black president, for which he won the Pulitzer Prize even though he only accomplished that 33% because he is only 33% black

The Christians of the Church Health Center helped me with my medical needs and now I am on Medicare/Medicaid. ACA did NOTHING—

Everybody is eligible to buy an ACA plan. Literally anyone is allowed to buy a plan on the ACA exchanges; there are no criteria you must meet to qualify. I think what you must mean is that you made too much money to be eligible for government subsidy that would have helped you afford an ACA plan. In that case, you did fall into one of the more serious gaps that exists today.

That is a reason to advocate for more universal coverage such as single-payer healthcare. That is not a reason to advocate for repealing the ACA and going back to the old system. In the old system, you would have been denied insurance because your gunshot wound would have been considered a “pre-existing condition.” You would have had NO options to buy insurance on the individual market, instead of the current situation in which you do have options, but they’re hard to afford.

If you are on Medicaid now, you may be eligible for Medicaid only because it was expanded by the ACA. Without knowing more about your personal situation I can’t know whether you would have been eligible for Medicaid pre-expansion, and I’m not going to pry into that.

I was unemployed with no income. For 32 months I was trying to get on disability. I was able to get on Medicare/Medicaid simultaneously with that. At first, they were deducting over 150 dollars a month for Medicare/Medicaid but that changed

Then you were eligible to purchase an ACA plan, and you were almost certainly also eligible for a government subsidy that would have made an ACA plan extremely cheap or even free for you.

I’m not a democrat. Just throwing that out there first.

The health care issues, are a huge deal to me, but have been thoroughly covered above. I would add, that it should be free. Yes, free. There is plenty of money to do it, it’s just being spent on the wrong stuff (military.)

The debt. Contrary to what Republicans say, and how thy viewed the debt under Obama, they have skyrocketed our nation’s debt. All to line the pockets of the wealthy.

The recent tax changes are my biggest problem. It was a massive insult to most Americans. And no. The crumbs that the GOP gave the non-wealthy, are not a help. It was a total rape of the poor, and middle class.

Immigration.
I’m going to bring up that damn wall here. It’s one of the stupidest things that I have ever heard of. Most of the area which is to be walled, is uninhabitable desert. After the journey, and hardships faced by most people coming up through central America, and Mexico, the wall would be the easiest obstacle to clear. The technology of walls, didn’t stop the Mongolians in ancient China, and it is still completely obsolete. Throw in the predicted cost, and it’s absolutely, jaw droppingly absurd.

Not calling for a similar wall along the Canadian boarder, shows that nationalsecurity is not the motivation for the wall. It tells me, that the conservatives just want less brown people coming here.

DACA.
The “dreamers” are American citizens, to me. Rounding up thousands of our fellow countrymen, and deporting them is unacceptable. This again is something that I see as a race issue. Conservatives wanting less brown people here.

“Muslim” ban.
Conservatives will say that the Muslim thing isn’t why the ban is in place. I call bullshit. Again. Race is part of the issue, but mixed with religious hatred. Less brown people, and muslims is the motivation.
The ban effects tens of millions of people. It does not make us safer, and further divides the US from the rest of the world.

The division of church, and state.

This is one of the most important things the founding fathers tried to do. They understood the dangers of religion, and knew it had no place in an institution of learning.
It also has no place in any branch of the government.
I’m sorry theists, but I don’t need any made up religions guiding my government’s decision making. And I damn sure don’t ever want to see such foolishness as creationism, being anything other than laughed at in schools.
Watching GW say things like God motivated him in starting the second Iraq war, is nauseating. I’m glad we caused the deaths of thousands, and forever changed the lives of millions of people, over what our leader thought his God would want. This is incomprehensible, to me…

War.
The Republicans seem fast to want military action, in almost every case of foreign problems. They were constantly wanting Obama to kill people, so the country appeared “strong.” His lack of major wars was a huge plus, to me. I didn’t like the drone strikes, but that’s a different subject.
Now. We have pulled out of the Iran deal, and will likely have to consider military action in the future.
Trump threatening nuclear annihilation, isn’t OK with me either.
War is Hell. It really has no place in this world anymore. It should be avoided at ALL costs. Not our go to method of changing the world to how we prefer it.

The environment.
Pulling us from the environmental deal, was a potentially cataclysmic mistake. I believe that the Republicansare fully aware of the destruction they are bringing upon our home, they just don’t care. They’d rather be slightly more wealthy, than take care of our home. Greed, is the major motivation here. All the new drilling, and pipelines, are insulting.

Abortion.
I understand the people who oppose it. But there is scientific data, that disproves most of the rhetoric I hear from anti-abortion crowds.
In addition, an unwanted child will likely suffer through a terrible life. Republicansgo out of their way to make such lives harder. So it’s baffling, to me, that they don’t support abortions. When an actual human being has their hand out, they slap it away. They call the less fortunate lazy. They say they should just get 5 jobs, and work harder. The love they have for a fetus, is very different from how they treat actual people. It’s as if they don’t understand that the mothers (in most cases) don’t want to have to rely on government aid, to raise their child, that’s why the abortion was considered. Because they don’t have the resources to raise the child.
Most conservative men opine that women just shouldn’t be whores. That’s an oversimplification, of course, and highly offensive.

Gun control.

It’s been beat to death in the pond, but it’s important. There is a glaring need for radical, sweeping changes to gun laws. Republicans seem to oppose any change.

Free Press.

The right is in a public war with the free press. The press calls them out, on things that embarrass them, so they try to discredit the information.

Racism.

Lots of Republicans are racist. The problem is, they don’t like being perceived as such. So they hide behind policies they claim not to like, or just lie, and say they aren’t bigots. They’re very comfortable trying to make laws to keep the country as white as possible. Wanting to deport millions of minorities. Wanting to keep millions more from even coming here. Supporting laws such as stop and frisk, that disproportionately target minorities. Supporting laws that keep minorities imprisoned.
They’re comfortable taking away government programs that help minorities.
They just can’t admit, that they are racist…

College campuses.

College campuses, are a place of higher learning. People stop eating the information they were fed, and start learning what’s really going on. It is the understanding of critical thinking that leads these places to be largely liberal. The Republican party is actively trying to remove professors, that have liberal views. They are actively trying to remove anything that does not align with conservative views. There is no liberal conspiracy to make colleges anti-conservative. It’s just a natural way for educated, smart, people to lean.

Capitalism.

Here we have some disagreement. I support it, as long as it’s checked by the government. Conservatives want less government, and less checking. That’s where we differ .

I’ve covered my most pressing issues with the GOP. Now for the Dems.

Have a plan.

The Dems seem to have no plan. They seem confident that if the public simply sees how awful the GOP, and it’s leaders are, the people will just vote D. Not a strategy.

Drone strikes.

I feel that Obama probably thought that he was picking the lesser of two evils, with so many strikes. But the process of determining targets, and the oversight was terrible. I am ashamed that my tax dollars probably killed thousands of innocent people.

Military.

Military spending is important. But the Dems could have taken a reduction in spending to task. The Republicans aren’t going to support cutting military spending (although Trump said he would,) so I would like to see the Dems hitch their wagon to that train. Reallocation of a large portion of our military budget could accomplish many needed goals for our country. I would like to see them push for that. It’s a realistic goal. It would face harsh criticism, but it would gain traction, once people realized what else we could do with so much money. They could push for free, universal health care, and improved infrastructure. I think that would get the democratic base in voting booths.

McGrimm888: I greatly appreciate your writing your position on these issues and I know it tool much more work than I’d ever put into an answer on Fluther. Ironically, I disagree with just about everything you said—except DACA and Health Care. And feel confident that I am right. It just goes to show how people can have TOTALLY different views on things.

When I was at Memphis Theological Seminary, there was a Professor from Canada—who REALLY believed that the interstate highways around our city were built for racist reasons,

The interstate goes around the city in a loop, in order to give easy access of the entire city to most people IN the city —and to route traffic to avoid destruction of neighborhoods and business districts which would have happened to build the highway.

This professor saw the interstate around the city as a “wall” to keep brown and black people walled in the city and out of the suburbs.

Truth is, both sides of the interstate highway have been African American for a very long time. The suburbs were out east, not north and south. And most white people lived in the central corridor of the city, within the loop, not outside the loop (except on the eastern suburban side of the loop).

Furthermore, the Professor saw one part of the interstate system, the one that gave access to the medical district and downtown, as being an effort to wall in the downtown area as a black slum—evidently according to the professoe the worst of the worst neighborhoods were downtown. Whereas it IS true that there are some bad black neighborhoods to the North and South of downtown, the interstate system walled in no one and gave everyone access to downtown and the medical district, and to cross the Mississippi River.

The interstate walled in no one—in fact, it gave some bad areas a quick egress out and to the greater loop of the city.

There was also consensus not only with the professor but among the students that a halting of the Interstate 40 corridor through the city’s historic zoo and Overton Park was racist. Why? Because the city planners cared more about the zoo animals than they did about black people. The I-40 branch was planned and halted in the early 1970s. When I asked why this was discrimination against black people, I was told because the city dump was built in a black neighborhood— actually the dump was built in the 1920s in an isolated area and people moved to the area later—first poor whites and eventually poor blacks. This had nothing to do with the zoo or dislike of black people.

I never saw how so many in a class of liberal seminary students could see racism in the interstate highway system that provided access and freedom to everyone throughout and around the city. Conversely they couldn’t understand how I DIDN’T see the racism.. These liberals included privledged rich white students, poor blacks, and a liberal professor from Canada who wasn’t even from the south.

I don’t see how any of the views espoused stand upon scrutiny, but my views were held by me alone.

I might want to clarify one point— the zoo and the city dump.

The students saw the fact that the city was willing to block the highway from destroying the zoo in 1975—protecting animals and white privilege but did not halt the building of the city dump in 1925. Actually the dump was built where it was and the poor moved into the area later

As you stated, you wanted to “understand positions” I hope I have given you a rudimentary understanding of mine. If there were subjects not broached, please ask me for elaboration.

I’m also a non-voter. I don’t vote, out of protest. So. I am probably an extreme minority, but I hope I can still provide some input…

Good morning! After yesterday and mentally reviewing the conversations, I just wanted to put this out there, because I feel it’s the most important take away from this conversation and many others. Again, I’ve voted both major parties so I have no extreme loyalty to either of them, but to us, the people who have to deal with their decisions. Personally, I would love to see jellies more open to bipartisan discussions and solutions, rather than being polarized and alienating each other. Peace.

“In a very partisan era, one idea draws near universal support across party lines: cooperation. Ninety-two percent of Americans want to see more cooperation between Democrats and Republicans in Washington over the next year. Nine in 10 Republicans, Democrats, and independents say they want this.

This wish for more cooperation comes amidst negative views of both political parties. Fifty-two percent of Americans have an unfavorable opinion of the Democratic Party, and 60 percent view the Republican Party unfavorably. These numbers have changed little from last year.”

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-support-daca-but-oppose-border-wall-cbs-news-poll/

@KNOWITALL The sad reality is that the establishment Democrats have “met in the middle” since Clinton. The Republicans have continued to venture further and further to the extreme right wing. As a result, the Democrats are further to the right than the Republicans were in the 90’s on many issues (e.g. obamacare, corporate givaways, mergers, deregulation, oil pipelines, private prisons, usury laws etc.).

I have no desire to keep playing that game. It has forced the discourse to be between radical extreme right and merely very right. See this chart. So no, the fallacy of the middle ground is not a good approach. Imagine if it were the other way around and the Democratic party wanted to completely abolish all private property, religion and make everyone employees of the state, you wouldn’t accept meeting in the middle on that would you?

@gorillapaws My point was that discussions don’t have to be ‘us against them’, we are all humans living on this planet together but we sure don’t act like it, even on this site.

I never said anything about meeting in the middle, although yes, that would be ideal, but unlikely.

As far as your analogy, the Democrats have tried to force the religious community to do or think or feel things they simply don’t, so nothing would surprise me at this point.

@KNOWITALL I totally agree that conversations can and generally should occur with civility between people with differing viewpoints.

“Democrats have tried to force the religious community to do or think or feel things they simply don’t”

I can’t think of a single example of this. Democrats will fight to the death to defend your rights to believe in Christ, Allah, the Devil, Yahweh, Mother Earth, Vishnu, Zeus, Thor, L Ron Hubbard, no God, many gods, or whatever else you want to, as long as you’re not harming other people, you can believe what you want. What progressives do object to is when people try to impose their particular beliefs on OTHERS. You don’t have the religious freedom to force me to comply with YOUR beliefs. You also are not allowed to discriminate against others because of your religious beliefs. That may hurt your feelings, but it’s certainly not a violation of your religious freedom.

@gorillapaws It doesn’t hurt my feelings at all, you don’t have that power. :)

Additionally, even on this site liberals do not defend my right to believe in God, maybe a couple rational ones that I would call friends, but the rest mock, call names, blaspheme, etc… Why don’t you ask yourself why more conservatives aren’t here, participating? Even the few here have to talk amongst ourselves sometime because it’s safer.

Yes, many Christians know there is open war on religion, which is probably why Trump won and may win again. If you don’t see the headlines since he’s been in office and correlate them to the christian vote, you aren’t looking close enough.

@KNOWITALL I’m not sure if you realize this, but the right to freedom of religion also means others have the right to mock your faith too. I certainly don’t think that’s a kind way to treat others, but you don’t have the right to never be offended. There is no war on religion in this country (arguably against Islam, but certainly NOT Christianity—for fuck sake it’s everywhere), it’s fake news. Please name one example.

@gorillapaws Sure they do, I don’t deny that and no, it isn’t kind. I have tons of these but not enough time to list them all for you. I haven’t heard anyone deny this has been coming for years, I think we even discussed here on fluther before.

*And fyi, I’ll ask you not to throw in your curse words at me while we try to discuss religion. Pretty please?!

Oklahoma (this is a group going around christian areas trying to prove by legal means that there is no place for christianity in govt offices, etc…)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/26/satanic-temple-sculpture-detroit-oklahoma

Down the road from me, Missouri (this was the same group wanting to start an after school club in the city of different christian faiths, and AG national office.)
http://www.ky3.com/content/news/Satanic--389074642.html

Religous Expression via Catholics
http://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/

“This new vigorous secularism has catapulted mockery of Christianity and other forms of religious traditionalism into the mainstream and set a new low for what counts as civil criticism of people’s most-cherished beliefs. In some precincts, the “faith of our fathers” is controversial as never before.”

@KNOWITALL Are you saying satanists don’t have the right to practice their religion? How is a satanist church making a statue on their private land an infringement of your freedom of religion? I’m confused. Tax dollars, public lands, government buildings, etc. aren’t supposed to be affiliated with any religion. That’s not a war on Christianity, that’s called the separation of church and state, and Christians should support it because it would protect them if a different faith was ever in the majority. How pissed would you be if your tax dollars were going to fund public schools that were mandating all students do regular prayers and lessons from the Bhagavad Gita?

I don’t see any articles that say that you are being prevented from attending whatever church you want, from praying, from expressing your faith etc. Have you seen America at Christmas? Do you really think Christians are being persecuted? I can’t imagine what it would be like to grow up with a non-Christian faith in this culture to be honest.

@gorillapaws Of course they have every right, like any other religion. My point is they are seemingly liberal as well as their goals, supposedly.

Believe it or not, I agree with you on seperation of church and state. It should be all religions or none, per the amendment, and I’ve said as much to friends when discussing this.

America at Christmas is about materialism, not much about Christ anymore, imo.

As far as I know everyone is allowed to worship however they want, it’s my choice to go or not.

I’m not saying christians are persecuted, we’re not quite there yet, but mocked and ridiculed, absolutely.

@KNOWITALL ” My point is they are seemingly liberal as well as their goals, supposedly.”

So how is that an example of a war on religion? Sorry, but I’m still confused.

“I’m not saying christians are persecuted, we’re not quite there yet, but mocked and ridiculed, absolutely.”

I completely agree. I don’t think being mocked and ridiculed is at all equivalent to a “war on religion.” All faiths and non-faiths get mocked. The Satanist kid, the Jewish kid, the Buddhist kid, the Atheist kid, the Mormon kid, the Catholic kid and yes, the Protestant kid too. All of them have to deal with being ridiculed in different contexts. It sounds like your frustration is that it has become socially acceptable to mock Christians, in the same way as it’s been historically socially acceptable to mock Jews, Atheists, etc. That’s hardly a “war on religion.” Call me when they try to prevent you from going to the church you want to, and I’ll be the first one there fighting to make sure you get the chance. In the meantime, playing the victim when Christianity is more or less ubiquitous is pretty lame imo, it’s like white people crying about reverse-racism, or billionaires crying about class warfare—AKA fake news.

@gorillapaws Okay, although I don’t think you’re correct on a few things in that last post. As if reverse racism isn’t a real thing. I’ve been one of the only white girls several times, my first boyfriend was Vietnamese, there is all kinds of reverse racism, been there.

But your reality and mine may be very different, so peace.

@KNOWITALL I’m not saying reverse racism isn’t a real thing, I’m saying crying about it is lame. Sure there are opportunities and challenges that I have as a white male, but compared to any other race/gender in the USA the obstacles I face due to those factors are minuscule compared to everyone else to the point where complaining about the fact that I’ll probably catch shit if I walk into a black barber shop, or I might not be hired by nepotistic Indian business owner because of my race would be utterly pathetic. That’s the point I was making. I feel the same about Christians whining because sometimes people give them grief, like every other group doesn’t have to deal with the same thing on a much worse scale. Spend a week wearing a burka then complain about being a Christian.

Religion is seemingly conservative and those who follow a religion are in the majority.

I grew up feeling like I was missing out because everyone around me followed a religion. I was treated as an outcast. Both my parents grew up Methodist and went to church but they left the religion when they were adults. My father left after dealing with child neglect from his first wife who was Jehovah Witness. My mom left after being molested by a priest when she was a teen. They never forced a religion on me and they allowed me to attend services with friends who were Mormon, Catholic and others. They didn’t want their grievances to affect me. My parents felt that religion was a choice for me to make.

Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Most of the rest, 13 percent, have no religion. That leaves just 4 percent as adherents of all non-Christian religions combined — Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and a smattering of individual mentions. Seriously, boohoo to the conservatives who are triggered by a loud minority.

I have a lot of curse words for the majority of Christians who feel that their religion should guide our country. A small minority fights this wrong doing. If I’m the scary bad guy, so be it. The religious will not tell me that my gay friends can’t adopt or marry. They will also not tell me that my transgender family member can’t join the military or receive medical care. Religion has no place in government.

And yet— our founding documents read like religious treatises.

Our very freedoms are inalienable rights are irrevocable because they were given by God, not the government.

For this reason, we have separation of church and state. The government cannot trample on religion. Its pretty hard to get around that the Government recognizes YOUR rights because according to our very founding, your rights come from God, and cannot be taken away by men.

And yet. Men try to take away rights, because of religion all the time. Like abortions.

The bill of rights was written on paper. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t better things than paper now. The prospect of a deity, is old, and beyond flawed.
Our founding fathers knew that religion was dangerous, and worked hard to keep it as far away from the new government, as they could.
You are correct, that religion has it’s fingerprints all over our founding documents, but religion in this case, was more like rats on a ship, than the actual cargo with value.

Religion indeed, has no place in government, regardless of the rhetoric used to craft documents. If you think that many only lend such documents credibility because of the word “God,” and not because it’s law, you’re mistaken…

Then why is it written as the foundation of those founding documents?

Abortion is a good example of what happens when you try to divorce God from the founding of America.

I remember way back in the 1980s, a film called ‘Silent Scream’ showed what happens in an abortion (the unborn child could play with his/her fingers, blink eyes, had complex brain activity including REM sleep/dreams. The filming of the contorting agony at being ripped apart in the womb, the attempt at screaming was obvious—most people couldn’t deal with it. the film was highly disturbing and unsettling. Yet, rather than deal with the abortion issue rationally, the film short was banned. There was an all-out effort to condemn the messenger for the atrocity of making a film of this disturbing, horrendous act—but no condemnation of the act itself.

Not too far from me is a counseling center and adoption agency that deals with crises pregnancies. A great many women opt out of abortion and some receive aid to raise their child for many years. Others opt for adoption. But a great many women are dealing with the trauma of having been coerced into an abortion because they believed they had no other choice, and are dealing with Post-Traumatic Stress, guilt, nightmares, etc etc. Other women react with hostility and damn for abortion rights and never deal with the issue. But most had no other choice—were not given a choice or aid or assistance or even information.

We now even have evidence that Planned Parenthood has been selling and harvesting body parts for decades.

No one is taking away your abortion rights. But I would argue that information on what abortion IS should never be censored. People need to THINK about what they are doing.

I have found, for decades, that people who eschew God are also constantly trying to rewrite or reshape the documents and laws themselves and make it into something else.

The Judeo-Christian basis of the laws and human society is the very essence of what these documents are and the rights you have.

I think the reason we have a separation of church and state is because our founding fathers knew what happened in England under Henry VIII (1491 – 1547).
When JFK was elected, people were afraid that the pope would then be in charge of the US government.
Christianity/Theism are both excellent bases for governmental laws, without “God” or any other hoo-doo actually entering into the equation to compound the issue.

@Yellowdog . It’s written in the foundation of those documents, because it was an obsolete way of thinking, that was in transition. The founding fathers had a been raised with Christian values. So. Their rhetoric had coincidental Christian tones. But they clearly wanted to get away from religion, and it’s many problems. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have all agreed to keep it out of the government.

The most important thing they were working on. The most important laws, and ways of doing things were deliberately separated from religion.
If religion was SO influential in the design of such documents, why on Earth would the authors ostracize faith? The answer is obvious. Many opinions were put forth, by our founding fathers, that religion was essentially a cancer. They were right.

They didn’t want cancer in their new , greatest creation. Hence. No religious involvement.

Religions, are man made garbage, with the sole intent of manipulating, and oppressing people. That’s why it’s SO important to spread them, and their influence. Religions are ALL there, to take advantage of the gullible, or weak. They are a mass scam, and should be recognized as such.

Such con artists, have no place in education, or government.

The fact that there is some religious infestation, in our founding documents, doesn’t mean that it is more relevant than the intentions of white male land owners being in charge…

There are many things in our founding documents, that are outdated, or lacking forsight. Keeping religion out, wasn’t one if them .

Read this and you might actually learn something. It sounds to me that you have been raised on atheist propaganda.

The documents protect against establishing a state or nationalist church, or adopting a religion (Catholicism, Lutheran, Anglican, reformed) as a state religion, for the nation or for any state. Or from the government controlling religious institutions. There had been MANY wars in Europe where states or nations adopted a particular religion or were forced to adhere to because it was their state church.

Because our founders believed that God was not subject to governmental control, people could choose whatever religion or none at all, without government interference. Religion could not be established by government nor could any laws prohibit the practice of any religion.

Our nation was not to become a place where people were forced to belong to any particular religious body. You are free to choose any religion or none at all. That is not the State’s business.

To claim that the founders of this nation “recognized religion as a cancer” is woefully out there in left field and is not factual. Our founders were DEEPLY religious and wrote God into the very fiber of what our nation was established on and what we were to become. You have freedom of conscience and can adhere to whatever your belief, but to claim our founders were antireligious—you’ve been propagandized on atheism

The idea that Satanism is a religion is either a mockery of religious freedom, or perhaps adhering to the philosophies of various cult figures as Anton Levey. My experience is that most Satanists are not really into the philosophies of Levey or others but are just mocking

Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that the government did not control what religion you belonged to, and had the right to no religion at all. That’s a choice God gives you, not the government.

@Yellowdog ” Our founders were DEEPLY religious and wrote God into the very fiber of what our nation was established on and what we were to become.”

This isn’t accurate. The founders were students of enlightenment philosophy. They were generally considered to be Deists. This is an interesting article about the faith of the founding fathers.

You got it @gorillapaws . They were smart. They were, from my understanding, anti-religion.

@Yellowdog . I was raised Baptist, and attended Sunday school. My family moved to Europe, when I was 6. For whatever reason, that’s when I was no longer going to Sunday school, and rarely attending church. Maybe because there probably aren’t a lot of Baptists, in Germany…
I slowly became an atheist. It was a journey. I went from believine in the Christian God, to agnostic, to atheist.
It was a carefully, and emotionally weighed decision on my part. I did not easily throw religion away. It was very comforting.

And you are incorrect. “That’s a choice God gives you, not the government.” Ridiculous statement, on multiple grounds. There is no “God,” and if there were he isn’t a US citizen, so he has no rights at all.

Our founding fathers, weren’t “DEEPLY” religious, at all. But they were raised in a culture that was. Hence, the rhetoric in the founding documents had an unavoidable Christian flavor. But the real understand of how they viewed religion, is in their many efforts to separate it from the government. A wise move. And obviously telling about their opinions on religion. If they were “DEEPLY” Christian, they wouldn’t have done things the way they did. In fact, the religion that taught them the evil of such things, was Christianity.
They understood that organized religion has only one goal; to manipulate mankind, for the benefit of a few, and the “brand.”

Satanism .

Ha! Makes just as much sense as any other religion (no sense.) And is rooted in Christianity. So. You would be quite similar to a Muslim, gating another Muslim, over differences in the same religion. I know that you are smart/compassionate enough to see that…

So. @Yellowdog . I know my comments seem harsh. But I’d seriously like to take this opportunity to relay my respect to you. NONE of my posts are malicious, although I will push people hard.

Please understand that, although I am an asshole, I consider you a “Fluther Buddy,” and a valued part of our community. We agree, or are similar, in lots of ways that aren’t political…

I appreciate your attempts to understand your liberal jellies. I hope their views don’t run you off. Or mine.

Peace n love.

Sorry. Edit. “a Muslim *H*ating another Muslim…...”.... Not “Gating.”..

I’ve been on this site for many years and it’s the status quo to mock christians, I’m not surprised one bit but some of you guys seem to want to deny the fact that you’re pretty freaking rude about our religious beliefs. Meanwhile saying we should respect all other faiths and belief systems.

Uh huh…..hard to practice what you preach isn’t it?

@MrGrimm I respect you statement to @Yellowdog.

I don’t deny that I can be rude about it. Religion is a disease.
The problem is that people don’t worship their religion in private settings. They’re constantly pushing their beliefs on everyone. Every other day, there’s a pamphlet, or something from Christian, or Jahova’s witnesses trying to convert me. Many just end up blowing around the neighborhood, trashing the place.

Worst of all, these people are in our government, and/or trying to get our government to act or change in the name of their religion. THAT is where the animosity comes from. And it is deserved. A person’s religion should not affect the lives of others. I think we should all agree with that. But that is what is happening in America. People are voting for terrible people, who are inacting terrible changes, because of religious beliefs. The Republicans know exactly how to manipulate the Christian population, and the Christians are letting the GOP play them to pursue an agenda.
Each election cycle, they get Christian people riled up, by promising to make abortion illegal, and make gay marriage illegal. But they never do. What they do do, is help the wealthy elite, and their agendas more often than not hurt the people who put them in office. But that won’t stop the Christians from putting more awful, greedy, lying Republicans into positions of power.
Religious people will vote for a terrible candidate, as long as they claim to align with a handful of issues, that stem from religious beliefs. The voters often don’t know much about a candidate, other than they are opposed to gay marriage, or abortion.

Actions, rhetoric, and behavior that are motivated by a false premise, are harmful. That’s the reason why men invented religion in the first place. To control people. It’s a sleazy, but very effective way to control large parts of a population.

Now. I’m fine with someone believing whatever they want to. But theists shouldbe thinking about the brainwashing that their religion is doing. They want people to act, and behave as their “god” intended. That way, they’re easy to manipulate. Notice how easy it is to sell a suicide bomber on blowing themselves up? Look in this book. It says that you will go to heaven, and have lots of wives!
It may not seem like it, but Christian voters are just like them. They have been manipulated into doing someone else’s bidding, using religion.

Any Christian people here tythe? Giving some of your money to the Church, so it can spread the religion more, because they say that God wants you to. More manipulation.

What about the Catholic Church being opposed to birth control? Well. Without birth control, their followers will likely make more followers. More people to control. More money, and power for the Catholic Church.

If you’re part of an organized religion, you are only a pawn, and you are being used. Not used by a deity. Used by crooked men. By playing along, you guarantee that others will be used as well, and that agendas far more diabolical than you could imagine are being pursued with your help. Your every action in the name of your religion, is an action to further the religion’s power, and influence. It’s really that simple.

I’m not speaking for all atheists, just me. Hopefully this explanation of why I am so aggressive about religion will at least let you see the dangers I see from organized religion…

Fin.

@MrGrimm888 I’ll have to second that. GA!

I regret writing it. It was probably deeply offensive to some jellies that I care about.

I felt that not speaking my mind would be disingenuous, and overall more of an insult. This is a debate forum.

I will also admit to struggling unexpectedly ,IRL, so I hope I didn’t just throw misdirected anger.

The Republicans use people’s religion against them, and they can’t get enough…. Go figure…

Actually, it has been helpful to me to see it all in one place. I recognize that you are writing to be informative, and I also recognize that it takes a lot of effort to give a lengthy, detailed answer

Thanks @Yellowdog .

Peace n love.

@MrGrimm888 While I understand what you’re saying, I’m not brainwashed or being controlled by my religion. Yes, my religious views do affect who I vote for, absolutely, but I won’t get into that since ya’ll get so mad every time I bring up abortion and my ethical problem with it. But my vote is my vote, and whether I voted for Clinton or Trump or not at all, that is MY choice, not yours. You vote for who you want, I do the same.

And this, because Democrats aren’t awful, greedy nor do they lie? : But that won’t stop the Christians from putting more awful, greedy, lying Republicans into positions of power.

I don’t attend a church regularly anymore, nor do I tithe to a church. My understanding is that we tithe according to our beliefs, which means I give to whomever and whatever I feel like doing, and it’s all good.

Be careful about generalizing, I think your picture is quite skewed by what you ‘think’ you know. And our beliefs are NOT the same, as you know, about many things, so of course I’ll vote differently than you, but that doesn’t mean you’re right and I’m wrong. I don’t believe that anyway.

Example: A nontheist Jelli who had no presents or food for Christmas and mocks all religion and religious people, says she ended up going to the church for both for her son. To me, that’s hypocrisy, but you know that church was happy to help, regardless. That’s our hearts and our mindsets, whether you believe it or not, the world would be a far worse place without the Catholic Charities, homeless shelters, food pantries, etc… I would think you could at least acknowledge the fact that churches do a lot of things the Democrats TALK about doing.

Just my two sense, peace.

Knowitall: I have kind of a Truce and understanding with MrGrimm.

However, MrGrimm and others like him, which may be about 35–30 percent of the culture, really DO believe you are brainwashed. Seriously.

They believe your church and various republicans really DO tell you and their masses how to vote. They believe that Trump gives economic prosperity to the wealthy, bans Muslims, hates non-whites, and deceives working people into voting for them and gives them ‘crumbs’ whereas the Democrat party exists solely for the poor and underclasses.

The believe there is a war on Muslims, immigrants, and African Americans in this country led by militant “Alt Right” Republicans, and that non-Caucasians in this country are facing widespread persecution from white people. especially Republicans and Christians.

That Donald Trump is a dictator who colluded with Russians to steal the 2016 election and that Mueller has a case against him—for about eighteen months they have believed that Trump will very soon be frog-marched out of the white house in cuffs and chains.

Furthermore, that it is URGENT at EVERY OPPORTUNITY to make it loud and clear and definite how reprehensible and repugnant this criminal dictator is, far more reprehensible and dangerous than any of us can ever imagine.

Your RELIGION has led you to blindly trust these dictators and you AUTOMATICALLY vote for them like sheep. You NEVER vote for anything but a dictator (who is also very uneducated and STUPID) because you yourself are an empty-headed automation or may sincerely believe you are doing the right thing but have been programmed by efforts to control your mind and your vote.

Please someone let me know if I exaggerate or stretch it. I am reading what others truly say about their views. They REALLY believe this.

I can fight or argue with them or try to point out reality, but I’ve learned to accept and respect that this is the reality they live in.

@Yellowdog I know, that is why I will at least respond respectfully to @MrGrimm888 for communication sakes.

It’s so interesting to me here, as a social experiment, to even defend Republicans or theists. I have said that I voted both parties in the past, I’m a moderate, I have gay friends, trans friends and would defend them from anyone meaning them harm, with my life. It just blows my mind that some liberals actually believe all that.

I guess according to that logic, and since I’m in a RED state and a christian, I should vote a straight Rep ticket moving forward and not even bother to review candidates or their records, etc….?

haha, I’m all good, it just gets old being called a racist, crazy christian and all the other nonsense here, tired of telling them they have no clue what they’re talking about. Most of the other theists have been ran off or don’t stay long…glad to see you’re staying.

I voted for Obama against McCain for reasons I will not get into here. But Obama literally seemed like he was bringing people together—and maybe was the fulfillment of an old dream or promise we were longing for in the 1960s and 1970s. McCain seemed a rather ordinary Republican echo of the Reagans and Bushies. Been there, done that.

Obama vs Romney—well, I voted for Romney. But if it had been Hillary vs. Romney, I would have actually voted for Hillary. Again, Iceland had women presidents and maybe it was time for a new kind of Democrat party. Obama was telling Israel to go back to its pre-1967 borders and was becoming very sympathetic to Islam and barking at Christians, Law Enforcement, and Jews.

Trump vs Hillary—I saw EVERYTHING that was going on and is going on still.

@Yellowdog . I’m sorry if you inferred from my diatribe, that theists are empty headed. If I gave that impression, I sincerely apologize. I think anyone can be brainwashed. I know I was raised Baptist, and attended Sunday school, every Sunday. I prayed to God, and tried to be a “good” person. Looking back, I can easily see it as brainwashing /indoctrinating all of the children there at Sunday school. It took uears, decades really, to untrain myself.

If something is hammered into your head, from a young age, and your entire community compounds, and further cements it into you, of course you will believe it.

Another interesting part of organized religion, is the teaching of anger at anything not aligning with the faith. Another thing that most organized religions have in common. Any questioning of people’s faith, leads them straight to furious anger. In many Muslim countries, blasphemy is harshly punished, or even a capitol crime. That’s another way religions control people, and make sure that only their religion remains powerful. As with anything in life, things that are never to be questioned, should be regarded with suspicion.

That anger is very effective. Many theists can’t even converse about such things. They get blinded further by their anger.

@KNOWITALL . I of course respect your right to vote for whomever you wish. I don’t vote at all. Yes. There are plenty of bad people in the Democratic party as well. But they don’t weaponize a religion. A big reason that they have trouble winning elections.

I also wanted to clarify that my statement earlier was not directed at any specific jelly.

I wanted to be detailed, so you can at least see that I’m not just a reason-less hater of religion.

Religion is a tool for controlling people. Republicans aren’t ethical enough to not use that tool.
How many Christians will vote for Trump in 2020, simply because he moved our embassy to Jerusalem?

Is gay marriage illegal yet?

Is abortion illegal yet?

Of course not. But the Republicans will get LOTS of votes from Christians, who have been told repeatedly, that the GOP will get it done.

Is Trump working on it? Of course not. Because he doesn’t care. He got the Christian vote, and that’s all he wanted.
I’ve seen Republicans running on those issues countless times. It seems to me that the GOP would do well to keep abortions legal, and gay marriage. That way, they can always control a portion of the country.

I personally, would be offended by being used. I’m just pointing it out.

As far as charity. It’s not altruistic. I’m afraid that religious charity is only another way of a religion spreading it’s influence, and power. So no. I will never give the Catholic Church credit for spreading their disease, and proving my point…

Think about it. Those who are most easily manipulated, are desperate, vulnerable people. I can’t think of a better recruiting ground, than a homeless shelter.

So called acts of kindness, are just well planned manipulation of the population that isn’t catholic. It’s a great plan. And they don’t even pay the people working there! These people are volunteers, because they don’t know that they are just free religion spreaders. Although I am sure that they feel good about what they do. And they kind of should. They are helping people in need, even if it’s sadly at the cost of spreading the disease further too…

@MrGrimm888 I’m sure you’re a fine person, I’m not debating that, but sometimes I think our views are skewed based on our personal beliefs.

I think religion was created to control people, but in modern society, it’s a choice.

So what you are saying is that Trump using religious people’s political views is wrong of him to do? Kinda like Hillary talking smack about ‘poor people’ then using the platform to show how she will help them? They all do that, that’s politics. Heck Obama used the ‘no new boots on the ground’ to get Democrat votes and pretty quickly said he was mistaken and would have to send more troops. So that’s not any ONE party using the system to win.

As far as Same Sex Marriage, Trump has not tried to reverse that decision or make it a big deal at all. So I guess you’d be correct on that.

Abortion is not illegal but things are happening, yes. You probably aren’t aware of it as much as others are.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43978510

I accept your definition of charity but I don’t feel you’re correct, and I also feel that religion is beneficial to many people, including myself. It’s so interesting how many Democrats bash charity and kindness, but don’t ever include their own stories of charity for the population. Where are all the non-religious food banks, homeless shelters and charities? Where?

@KNOWITALL “Where are all the non-religious food banks, homeless shelters and charities? Where?”

See these. Some standouts you’re probably familiar with include:
Amnesty International, Doctors without Borders, Goodwill, Rotary, and Planned Parenthood.

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
The various UN programmes

Here’s the actual list, I’d have to research religious vs non-religious.

https://www.forbes.com/top-charities/list/#tab:rank

*Again, I’m asking about charities such as food banks and shelters. Even the Salvation Army includes religious services btw.

@KNOWITALL I’m not sure why you’d exclude groups like Doctors without Borders and Planned Parenthood which help provide healthcare to people in need? It seems arbitrary. Furthermore, consider that 2.4% of the US population self-identify as Athiests, with about 75–80% of the population believing in God. That means one would expect many more charities to be religious in nature by statistics alone.

@gorillapaws Doctors Without Borders has zero locations inside the US. Amnesty International is about changing laws, etc…rather than feeding the hungry.

This is interesting and related:
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/10/no_prayer_no_food_shelters_tur.html

@KNOWITALL The rule is that you can’t require recipients of the charity to participate in the religious activity and still receive donations from the government. Imagine if it was a satanic cult that would give out food only to desperate people that agreed to participate in worshiping the devil… and it was being paid for by your tax dollars via the federal government. How pissed would you be? The rule is perfectly sensible, and it’s one that apparently Bethesda Mission was already following, but they decided to make a stink for publicity sake I guess?

IMO if a charity is attempting to proselytize than I don’t consider it’s works to be “charitable.” It’s just “religious marketing” masquerading as charity at that point. It’s the kind of thing that Christ was disgusted with when he chastised the Pharisees and told people to pray in their closets.

“Amnesty International is about changing laws, etc…rather than feeding the hungry.”
Changing the right laws can feed more mouths (or ideally, preventing mouths from ever becoming hungry in the first place) than handing out food ever will btw.

Planned Parenthood is heavily funded by the government. It is primarily for abortion. It offers other women’s services but its funding crowds out other clinics which really DO exist ONLY for women’s health,

Goodwill is a private for-profit business. It takes donations and sells them for profit, using underpaid mentally challenged people as its workforce.

@Yellowdog ”[Planned Parenthood] is primarily for abortion.”

Bullshit.

Take a look at Page 31 of the 2016–2017 Planned Parenthood Annual Report. Abortions are literally 3% of what they do.

“Goodwill is a private for-profit business”

Bullshit. Goodwill is a 501( c )(3) Non-profit organization. There may be reasonable criticisms, but let’s not spread misinformation.

@gorillapaws I get that. So you’ll understand why any funding of PP with taxpayer monies is such a big deal, too.

Hey, I’m an elected official, of course I know changing laws is beneficial, but all of that takes TIME, which most hungry and homeless people don’t have. In my area (Missouri), all charities are ran by churches, like Salvation Army or others we’ve discussed.

Lets focus on giving our tax dollars to womens health clinics that do the other 97% then,
There are plenty of them. And Planned Parenthood well deserves the controversial status it’s earned.

Goodwill is a 501( c )(3) Non-profit organization ? I believe you, but that makes it even WORSE that they take donations and sell them for profit, using underpaid mentally challenged people as its workforce.

@KNOWITALL ” So you’ll understand why any funding of PP with taxpayer monies is such a big deal, too.”

I’m sorry, I don’t follow you. Can you elaborate?

@gorillapaws Self explanatory isn’t it?

@KNOWITALL . I am not concerned about you thinking that I am a “fine person.” I was just hoping that I hadn’t hurt your feelings.

I’m also not a Democrat. So, I will not defend any of their actions.

I don’t see opinion, and beliefs room be similar. Saying no more boots on the ground doesn’t go after someone’s religion. It targets those who opine that there should be less troops in a battlefield. That’s not going to pull the same strings in someone, as something that has baring on their religious beliefs.

I concede, that Hillary sucked. But I never supported her. I don’t like her, for different reasons. She, I felt, was usually just saying what she thought people wanted to hear. I cannot respect that, and I certainly can’t support someone (as a candidate) who isn’t transparent with their agenda.

@Yellowdog . A lot of what planning parenthood does, has to do with contraceptives, and birth control. Such things prevent the spread of diseases, some cancers, and unwanted pregnancies. Being as unwanted pregnancy is the main factor in the desire for an abortion, I would think that conservatives would support them. I have seen 1, or 2 articles about people there “selling/pushing” abortions. Those were in conservative publications, but maybe true. Outside of that, I hear nothing but good things.

Isolated incidents that are negative, are inevitable in the sheer number of cases worked by such agencies.

Less disease. Less cancer. Less unwanted pregnancy. Less unwanted children. Less need for government aid. I’m not seeing a lot of negative impact from planned parenthood…

Planned Parenthood is the world’s leading provider of abortion and performs the overwhelming number of abortions in the U.S. Originally, Margaret Sanger started “The Negro Project” (which became Planned Parenthood) as a sort of Eugenics program.

There are more womens’ clinics that do NOT provide abortions which receive far less government funding because Planned Parenthood is a powerful organization that gets the overwhelming share of the funding.

@Yellowdog Which anti- Planned Parenthood pamphlet did you steal the BS from.

2% of the budget is used for abortion and NONE of it from the Federal Government. Most PP money is used for contraceptives and clinics, like getting antibiotics for STD’s. But the truth is not to seen by people that want to believe it is all a lie to get money for abortions. Don’t look it up and just keep lying to yourself and everyone around you, it just show lack of education and research.

@KNOWITALL “Self explanatory isn’t it?”

Not entirely, that’s why I was hoping you’d quailfy. I have a guess as to what you mean, but I don’t want to misrepresent your argument.

My assumption is that you’re drawing a parallel and making an argument via analogy, something crudely to the effect of: liberals don’t want to fund religious activities, and conservatives don’t want to fund abortions. The thing is it’s a lousy analogy. I’m fine with tax dollars supporting religious groups that aren’t promoting faith during their charity work, likewise US tax dollars don’t go to fund abortions. In other words, tax dollars can go to groups that you may not agree with as long as those dollars are only funding charity/general healthcare and not funding the activities that are objectionable. Unless you meant something else?

@gorillapaws Basically, yes.