Christians: what do you think about Sessions using the biblical quote from the Apostle Paul?

The problem is that ANY use of Bible teachings in relationship to American law should be illegal. At last words, we are not Saudi Arabia. This is a democracy, not a theocracy.

Sessions’ specific words and biblical chapters are irrelevant. The principle is that religion is not the basis for justify a legislated law.

I get strong Gilead vibes.

Funny. Because he and his ilk would never use that part in support of taxes, or gun laws, or the legal right to abortion, or the illegality of discrimination against gays.

Seems to me this Chapter could have been quoted and used to have the US be merciful:

“When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt” (Leviticus 19:33–34)

@elbanditoroso
Yeah, but that is the old testament, which christians ignore willy nilly.

Well, yes—Christians ARE to obey the government. But we are also to participate in the government of this land in such a way that if an unjust government or law exists, we are to work to get the law changed, rather than disobey the laws/government,

Christians DO recognize that the U.S. is not a theocracy and that Christians themselves founded this nation to be pluralistic—Christians believe our rights are endowed by the Creator and not the Government, so individuals should exercise those rights in choosing their relationship with God, or lack thereof.

I find it odd that those above are having a problem with a quote which Christians believe is from God that commands Christians to obey the government. And Jeff Sessions is no friend of Christian conservatives or the religious right.

But anyhow, here’s my take. If it were coming from a Christian, I would take heed to this counsel. The battle against unjust laws is not ours but it is God’s and God will work through other channels and not us, to get His will done.

Coming from someone in a post-Judeo-Christian Government or an unjust government, it seems more like a poor attempt at manipulation, to tell us who would disobey the unjust government due to religious objections, that our scriptures say we have to obey THEM.

To which, the scriptural passage which better fits the context, would be Acts 5:29

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

One could argue what God, or the bible, has to do in a country’s constitution in the first place.
I can imagine that people that don’t believe in (a) God take offence to that.
They might say that it is of course totally fine to believe whatever you want, but do so in your private home.
And, don’t (try to) apply laws from a book to me.

This is Jeff Sessions using a Scriptural verse telling BELIEVERS of that book to obey the Government. As an agent of the Government its a little scary or hypocritical.

You can believe that book or not, but Jeff Sessions is telling Christians that their book says they better stay in line and obey.

But the Government is supposed to be the People’s governent, not the other way around, and we have the right to change the government with our votes and petitions, Sessions’ attitude comes across as authoritarian and a little elitist.

@Yellowdog you are being to permissive and uncritical.

This isn’t elitism. This is using religion to justify a morally repugnant action. Using religion as an excuse for cruelty.

In the case of separating children from parents who have illegally crossed the border, who have been sent to a detention facility (a prison)—the passage doesn’t even apply.

There needs to be some sort of holding facility other than prison, where families can stay together and be granted asylum or deported. This is a government action and there is no reason to hem God into it at all.

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” Jesus said it before Paul and well before Sessions. The point is that the things that are important to the government or the rulers are the secular things of this world. The things that are important to God are the spiritual things that come from your soul.
Paul further refined that to say that the rulers are all part of God’s plan and therefore should be obeyed. That is where many Christians fall short, myself included. When I see corruption and evil going on in our government, it is very difficult for me to step back and trust to God. I feel, in my pride, that I should say something or do something because the injustice I perceive rankles me.
But to carry it further, and probably away from what Sessions was thinking, God also then created Kim Jong-un’s government, Putin’s government, Syria’s, Iran’s and Afghanistan’s governments. He allowed warlords to take charge of different countries. When I consider that, I confess I don’t see the whole picture.
As for the government using it’s powers against the religious right, that is already happening. The key for Christians is to do our very best to trust in God and hold to His word. No matter how tough that gets.

He should have read the entire chapter as verse 8 denies his claim…

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

I find over & over that God instructs us to love one another!!!

@Yellowdog is correct in that that is what the bible tells Believers.
Does it offend me, no, believers already knew this-or should, he was just re-iterating it.
This is exactly what I tried to explain on a previous thread, and why many on the religious right see some issues very differently.

Romans 13 Living Bible (TLB)
13 Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the policeman does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear him. So if you don’t want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well. 4 The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose. 5 Obey the laws, then, for two reasons: first, to keep from being punished, and second, just because you know you should.

This column, from one of the conservative writers at the Washington Post, encapsulates the argument.

link

Her conclusion: there is NOTHING Christian in what Sessions said.

I am a Christian, and I will tell you it is my belief Jeff Sessions is not acting like a Christian. This is the kind of snarky comment that badly reflects on the faith.

Satrah Huckabee Sanders defended Sessions quoting the Bible with, “I am not aware of the attorney general’s comments or what he would be referencing… I can say it is very biblical to enforce the law, that is repeated a number of times throughout the bible.”

And she is the daughter of a Minister!

What even is a christian. Even christians can not agree amongst themselves.

@ragingloli , a Christian is someone who uses a Christ-based third-party belief system in order to avoid taking responsibility for him/herself

@elbanditoroso That’s rich….lol

Well, it is either “It was god’s plan”, or “Satan made me do it.”

“I can say it is very biblical to enforce the law, that is repeated a number of times throughout the bible.”
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I’m hearing that loving thy neighbor fulfils the law of being bullied by the government.

Sarah’s dad is a politician first & minister last.

A tad bit judgemental, are we?

Anyhow—

No one representing the U.S. Government should use the Bible to tell believers that they are commanded to obey a certain law or statute. That is the role of other believers or religious organizations. Christians DO get a vote at the ballot box and can petition the government, That is the limit and the role of their Christian faith in government.

Some people find separation of children from parents at the border to be repugnant—but the alternative is to incarcerate the children with the parents for crossing the border We do not incarcerate children for their parents crime. When adult parents go to prison or detention, the children are put in foster care, even U.S. citizens. Even so, that procedure has nothing the verse quoted applies to. Some people find abortion to be repugnant, but the government should not use scripture to admonish people for it, or for opposing it. Its the job of the faith community to tell believers what their role is when something is unjust, according to their religion.

There is no way the government could tell people to “do everything in love because the Bible tells you so.” That is something the Christians are commanded to do by example. Then again, how do you command people to love one another in the first place?

@Yellowdog GA, I love that you continue to differentiate between secular rules and religious rules.
I guess it really boils down to some people believing that illegally entering the country is a crime, which is two different pov’s.

I asked a friend about this on Facebook and a friend of hers linked me this article. Let me know if the link doesn’t work.

https://rcg.org/articles/scstga.html

@JLeslie I love that article! Here are some of my favorite parts, which would help people understand some of us better as to criticism of Obama/ Trump, etc…

Regardless of how leaders conduct themselves, either in their personal lives or in carrying out their official duties, they must be obeyed. But their ungodly examples are not to be copied.

Paul wrote, “Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men” (Titus 3:1–2). Does this verse describe you? Or do you reflect cynicism, bitterness, anger and accusation toward others? The instruction is all-encompassing—“Speak evil of NO MAN.”

I have seen many people who traffic in gossip, innuendo, slander, storytelling and relentless character assassination of leaders of all kinds. They spew “fire” all over those that they attack, seeking to consume them. They presume that they are acting with impunity, even though God says they should fear speaking such evil (Rom. 13:4). They will not get away with this defamation!

The Christian’s responsibility does not end with mere obedience to government authority. Paul actually tells us to pray for those in authority—and includes a specific reason.

They are always to shine as outstanding examples to the world. This includes a humble willingness to cheerfully obey all civil governments under which they find themselves.

@KNOWITALL This is not a personal attack on anything you have said. I want to tell you my initial reaction to what Sessions said and what that article means to me. How it seems to me.

When I heard Session say the quote I thought, what happens when Christians hate a law put into effect by the Democrats? Are they just going to be obedient? Many of them fight to change laws. How can a law be Ordained by God, but need to be changed?

What about our law that makes abortion legal is it “ordained by God” in the mind of a Christian? I don’t think so.

I realize I’m generalizing about Christians, but bear with me so I don’t have to say after every sentence that I know it’s not all Christians and not all Christians think alike or behave alike.

Furthermore, it feels to me that there is a subliminal message that those who are disobedient or without God, and against Christians and God. This in a time when Trump is president, and there have been large protest often full of left leaning people doing the protesting. All the various marches that went in around the country and worse some violence, which I have spoken out about myself, that is anti-Trump, and trying to stop conservative from speaking on campuses, etc.

It feels to me again like trying to separate people and feel superior.

I don’t believe Christianity is culprit, I think Christianity helped make our country a great and special place at its founding. I have all sorts of positive feelings about Christians and Christianity, but it’s mixed with some things that bother me too.

I do think leaders with specific goals use Christianity as a tool to move and persuade the masses. I am not talking about clergy here, I am not talking about the church right now, I am saying other leaders who use the religion to control the masses. To control the Christians.

I really do believe you feel strongly about how you interpret Paul’s statement. I believe you are telling us your truth, and I don’t think you have a malicious bone in your body. I just think in the end people who see it like you do will be hypocrites I feel like you’re being set up. There will be a time when your “side” will find God in being disobedient. That’s my prediction anyway.

Paul also said women should be silent in church, but we all know many denominations willfully ignore that particular edict.

I also agree that this kind of defense would never be used for certain laws, i.e. same-sex marriage (where’s the Christian appeal to this verse in regard to people who wish to ignore same-sex marriage laws, such as those who refuse to grant licenses?)

The opportunism and the cherry-picking render this kind of defense ultimately absurd to me. My first reaction was “they must really be getting desperate if they have to stoop to this.” It’s manipulative, it’s disingenuous, it’s par for the course unfortunately.

@JLeslie But whether it (lets say abortion) is legal, christians answer to a higher law when we KNOW it’s against Gods will. We don’t have the options nonbelievers do. Does that make sense?
Like when Dr Tilley the abortionist was killed by a zealot, he was not praised in churches for his crime of murder, he did not trust God to handle it, and took a life, not okay.
As far as a sense of superiority, I obviously don’t know who you refer to with that, but it could be strong belief in our God and his word and promises to us. It’s not something I can explain other than the definition of being under conviction in our beliefs.
Further, many of us are in politics and we are trying to change things. I think bringing religion into politics is tricky, like Pence, he freaks me out a little. But you know I’m not the hardline christian he is, I am very liberal on the social issues like SSM because I prayed my way to understanding against many other christians beliefs.

@KNOWITALL It makes perfect sense to me that Christians answer to a higher law. That’s how I have always though Christians feel about it.

But, this quote is saying civil law is ordained by God. That would mean civil law is God’s law.

As a special note I don’t feel religious zealots like people who murder dictirs sho perform abortions represent the average Christian. Those zealots also are using religion as a tool to commit a murder.

@JLeslie But that’s why it’s difficult because christians have so much to interpret in their own way, and resolve in their own hearts.

Did christians accept SSM? I do, it’s now legal in many areas and ultimately between a person and their God to determine if that’s a sin. Many christians would clearly tell you it is a sin based on the bible. I personally believe that my sitting in judgement of any human being is wrong, as the bible also says.
My gay friends fiancee just asked for his christian parents blessing. They said they love them both and wish them the best but they could not give their blessing as it went against their beliefs. Of course they love their son and want his happiness but they also have to be honest and live THEIR truth, too.
So finally we are left with the fact that most christians did accept it as law, but are under no moral obligation to condone or participate. There aren’t marches, it’s not in the headlines, many simply feel it’s a law of man, not God. But you see, like abortion, we can march, we can change laws, we can legally gain acknowledgement that a fetus has personhood on its own.
Sorry if thats convoluted, I’m sleepy lol

^^What you said makes sense. If I were to paraphrase your words, you’re saying there is a difference between agreeing with a law and accepting a law.

What I still have trouble with is saying a civil law is ordained by God. That means God created or agrees with that law. From what you just said, it’s not that God/Christianity agrees with SSM even if Christians accept the law, so then I would say that the law for SSM is not ordained by God. Would you say the SSM law is ordained by God?

I appreciate you sticking with me through this conversation.

@JLeslie I would say that I am very torn on that. It doesnt affect me past the point of loving my friends that it does affect, which God commands. But many christians would say it is a law of man, like abortion, legalizing drugs, alcohol and gambling, etc…
It’s hard to navigate loving thy neighbor, God’s laws for us, and secular laws.
Similar to Jews eating pork or Indians eating steaks, we can but we are forbidden under penalty of eternal damnation.

@KNOWITALL Torn on what?

I’m still stuck on the word ordained. Are you saying you are torn on whether civil law is ordained by God?

My take on the “ordained” is that it is believed that God allowed certain people to come to power, certain governments to rule. It is not up to me to buck them. It’s His plan, not mine. If they are evil, God will bring them down. The only places that crosses is if a government or ruler is telling you to violate God’s law. At that point you have to follow God’s law. For instance, if the government told you we will now construct idols to Ba’al and worship them, you would not do that.

@seawulf575 so then you would agree with Mr Sessions that separating children from their parents is, in fact, a manifestation of God’s law, and is not to be questioned?

@seawulf575 I thought Christians believe God doesn’t make mistakes. If the wrong person comes to power that sounds like a mistake. I know Christians who say if one word in the Bible is not true then the whole Bible isn’t worth anything. Those particular Christians seem very absolute.

So, if God has a hand in who comes to power, and the people in power make laws like gay marriage and abortion, then those laws are ordained by God. Right?

I’m not trying to hassle Christians here about their beliefs, I have a problem with political leaders using Christianity as a way to control people.

@JLeslie No more so than a Democrat does, or any other party. They tell you what you want to hear, they do a few big things, then the other party wins an election and the cycle continues.
We know the chances of Roe being overturned are slim, SSM will be legalized, just like drugs and prostitution eventually. Churches are closing all over the country as many of us reject traditional values that exclude LGBTQs and other things we no longer agree with. They have to be all-inclusive to survive, so change is coming. I find it exciting! All this anger and arguing will hopefully usher in a new age of unity, love and acceptance based on the teachings of Jesus, who said He came to abolish the old laws. That’s my hope.

@KNOWITALL But, a Democrat who isn’t religious isn’t saying God First, or that what matters most is God’s law. I agree there are hypocritical Democrats, I’d say it’s worse now than I’ve seen in my adult life, but the republicans run on things like family values, morals, and religion. The Democrats are now talking about those things to try to show Republicans they are voting for someone who does not fit what they have always preached. The Democrats are trying to get through to the Republicans in the Republican language. It’s not working well, and it does make the Democrats look like hypocrites.

I still don’t think you answered my question about civil law being “ordained by God” but maybe you feel you have and I’m missing it. I think of it as a yes or no question with no middle ground.

I’m glad you are hopeful for a time of unity, I usually feel the same. Sometimes I feel like the whole world is going to open up and be peaceful and kind.

I believe this explains it best. But in short. We are not commanded to sit quietly or follow laws that are evil and go against Jesus teaching. Man is flawed and so their laws may be flawed as well. We protect our souls when we protect the souls of the innocent. We are to follow mans laws when they are designed to protect ALL. But harming those who seek refuge does not do that. These references about sections of the bible saying to follow Mans Laws were meant for man to follow laws that keep Gods Children (all of us) from harm or to pay our taxes for the good of the government so it could do what needs to be done with those taxes. This passage is what Hitler and slave owners used to do their atrocities, but there are numerous parts that give people license to fight back against injustice. As Christians you are suppose to follow Jesus. And Jesus taught peace and love. He would’ve never followed a law that broke with God.
This site explains it best. https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-limits-of-submission-to-man

@Pandora Interesting. I was going to bring up Hitler and the KKK, but I didn’t want to risk it being taken the wrong way. Instead I tried to word it more generically as leaders using Christianity to control people. Again, I am not criticizing the religion, but how it can be used.

Elbandito: separating children from their parents is a part of arresting people who have committed crimes. The adults go to some kind of prison facility or detention. The children are put in foster care. The children have it pretty good.

The photo of children in cages was made in 2014. It is not an invention of the new administration or ICE agents. Whether native born Americans or caught in a boxcar from Honduras, children whose parents go to jail, yes, are separated from them. It happens in white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant Christian families, too. Normally, the children are well treated in Foster Care— I don’t know what happened under the Obama administration in 2014, but no one cared then, or blamed Obama.

@Yellowdog and you, a minister, find separating families godly?

@Elbandit None of us want that. Come on. Hate the crime not the criminal.

It is a by-product of being arrested.

I am noticing on the news that they are now saying it is Trump’s “immigration” policy.
Its funny how none of you gave a damn about these people attempting to cross our borders illegally, and their children being separated until it became something to blame on Donald J Trump.

The Democrats have refused to work with Trump on this matter because Trump wants to build a wall. The Democrats are treating this like the holocaust. A wall would not restrict people from entering the U.S.—it would make sure they are legitimate immigrants, refugees, and asylum-seekers.

Again, this policy goes back several administrations, and none of you cared until it became something to blame on Trump, at a time when a lot of good things are happening in the world that you don’t want him to get recognition for.

Sorry, but for me crossing into America for freedom and a better life is not a “crime” like stealing and killing. Put yourself in their shoes. What if you are starving or bombs are being dropped on your heads, and you cross the Mexican border for safer ground. Are you a criminal equivalent to a person who has directly harmed someone else? I’m not saying we just let everyone in, I am saying I really have a serious problem with calling people trying to emigrate criminals. They are illegal, but they are no bad people, and to me criminal implies bad. Some of them might be gang members and bad people, very few I would guess, and I’m fine with locking them up in jail.

I have a serious serious problem with how republicans are using the word criminals for illegal immigrants. I can’t say it enough. You don’t want the Democrats to think you think all Mexicans are rapist and murders, then stop using that word criminal. Why can’t you be more specific and say illegal immigrant? Unless you think it’s all the same?

I heard on TV that some of the people are from countries we give asylum to. I am curious to know if that’s really true. If they are asylum countries then what is the hold up? I don’t get it. I didn’t know we are giving asylum to any Latin American countries right now.

I will say this, I was watching MSNBC today and a reporter was interviewing a man and his son who were detained, I can’t remember what country they were from, somewhere in Central America, and the reporter asked him if he knew he would be separated from his child for so long do you think you still would have come, and his reply was, “probably not.” So, if he represents the majority, then maybe Trump is right that it’s a deterrent. It probably depends how bad it is in your own country.

@elbanditoroso No, enforcing the laws of this country is the purview of the government. The government sets secular law. Those in power are there because God chose them to be there. However, humans being what they are, they screw up. That is what I meant that if they start doing evil, God will deal with them. He can put them into power, He can remove them from power too.

@JLeslie God doesn’t make mistakes. However humans are fallible. God might put someone in power to punish us. That isn’t a mistake, it is a punishment. He might put someone in power to change something else in the world. Again…I don’t know his plan, so I cannot judge. If you look through the bible, you find a number of times where God put people in power because they were good and then turned bad. You find times where God put people in power as a punishment for a people (Israel) that were straying from Him. But in every example, out of those choices, good came. Israel didn’t want to trust God and felt they needed a king. So he gave them Saul. Saul was good for a while, until he wasn’t. He got obsessed with killing David, who was actually on his side and he turned away from God. In the end, Saul was displaced and David took over. David was a good king, bringing God back to Israel…right up until he wasn’t. He sent one of his generals on a suicide mission so that he could have the general’s wife (Bathsheba). And David faded out of God’s favor. But out of his bloodline, we ended up with Jesus. I haven’t found anything Jesus did to fall out of favor with Him.
Just because God doesn’t send his angels down to slay a bad leader(s) immediately, doesn’t mean he isn’t changing things.
But your last statement brings out an interesting thought. I haven’t considered that any of our leaders have used Christianity to rule people. But you see that in multiple countries with Islam. And I don’t believe I have once seen you say a word about trying to rule people with Islam. Your thought? Should Muslim groups be allowed to set up Sharia law in our country? Should Muslim affirmations prayers be a required thing in a calligraphy class in a public school? How about Muslim bakers being allowed to refuse making cakes for gay weddings? I’m interested to see if it is theocracy as a whole or just Christianity that bugs you.

^^Absolutely the Muslim religion is used as a tool to control the people. The bad people in the Middle East have used it successfully, because afterall the majority religion in those regions is the Muslim religion. Not all Muslims buy into the crap those bad leaders are selling, but many do. Some go along not because they agree, but because their towns and cities have been taken over and they are trying to preserve their own families.

In America our majority is Christianity, so if you want to try to control the country Christianity is the way to go. Speak their religious language, and you can suck some of them in to do horrific things, or even not so horrific, but enough to sway populations to sway who comes to power.

Germany was Christian.

Again, I don’t see it as the fault of the religion, but simply it is used as a tool.

This is why “we” have a problem with people characterizing the Muslim religion as a bad religion full of bad peoples. I have many Muslim friends and acquaintances, and it’s just not possible for me to feel that way. It’s the murderous leaders who are brainwashing and scaring people, many of whom are probably depressed, and hopeless, and promising them Heaven.

Your answer is specious in its circularity. AND it avoids the real issue I stated. Many Muslim nations have Sharia Law. The rules are set by the IMAMs. Sharia is part of the Islamic religion. There have been those that feel we ought to let them install it in this country so they can keep their heritage. These are solid examples of nations using Islam to control people. It is built into their religion and and practiced. Yet I made the statement that I don’t consider ANY of our leaders to have used Christianity to rule people.
Your statement is humorous in its attempt to avoid the examples of Islamic rule while you cling to the idea that Christianity is being used as a weapon. You acknowledge that Islam is used, but then you cling to individual Muslims being good people. At the same time you are lumping all Christians together like there are not good people in that religion and that religion is being used to rule people. I can give you quite a few examples of Islam being used to rule people: Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, Pakistan, Palestine. The list goes on. Now, enlighten us…please make your list of nations where Christianity is being used as a tool to rule the people. Not a list of nations where the leader is Christian, where it is being used as a tool to rule.

@seawulf575 Like I said above, I give part of the credit to Christians for the basic ideals of our nation. Separation of church and state, freedom, democracy. I feel Christians at the time of our founding were integral in what made America different and special. A secular government made us very different, and some Christians seem to forget that. It’s not just that we were a democracy.

During the time of Hitler there were many Christians who did amazing things saving people and taking great personal risk. That does not go ignored by me.

When I was growing up my dad used to say he was grateful to live in a nation whose majority is Christian. That looking around the world the countries that had religious freedom and were prosperous and safe were predominantly Christian. This was 40 years ago when I was a girl, but that does not mean things can’t change. Germany was Christian too.

KKK leaders are not necessarily in the government. Osama bin Laden and ISIS leaders, not in the government. I’m just talking about any leader with malicious intent. Sometimes they are in the governments.

@seawulf575 @KNOWITALL @Yellowdog In the case of the children being separated from their parents, I think the question the democrats the republicans is, do you agree with the law? Or, are you saying follow it because of your religion? Christians right now are evading the question.

If I ask a Christian are you pro-life or pro-choice, they answer the question regardless of what the law is. Even if they don’t interested with the law (obedience) they will answer with their opinion, even if their opinion is based on their faith. If republicans disagree with the law, or what some call the punishment they need to say so, not saying so means to me they are fine with separating the kids from their parents.

Also, I’ll point out that Bush regrets following the law when he didn’t take action after Hurricane Katrina. He waited for the governor to invite him in to help (the law) and it was a mistake, she was an incompetent leader, and in that moment so was he. If there is a no trespassing sign on your neighbors yard and you see their 4 year old drowning in their pool, you break the law! Deal with the consequences later if there are any.

Breaking the law to save people is different than breaking the law to hurt them.

Plus, there are plenty of laws not unforced because they are stupid, or caused harm not foreseen at the time of the passing of the law. Those eventually are not enforced, or overturned.

I can see where separating the children might be practical for some circumstances, but I do think overall parents should be able to stay with their young children, definitely be able to spend most of the day with them. I realize there might be some logistical problems, but the president is saying it’s because of the law, and it’s the fault of the democrats, he is not talking about logistics. Think about that. Political games? What’s really going on.

@JLeslie This is a great conversation, thank you all for being open.
Do any of you have links to the conditions of the people? Do they get food, water, access to medical care? Are they safe in American camps?
I have not read the actual law, but I will.

@JLeslie the problem faced by border patrol is that while the media is screaming about separating children from their parents, in many cases, the children being detained are traveling alone or with people that aren’t their parents. Is it better to let children run free or potentially fall victim to human trafficking, or to detain them? And here’s the other part that isn’t being addressed at all: They are all trying to enter this country illegally. They knew it was illegal before they set out to come here. They knew it was illegal as they were doing it. You are trying to conflate that with seeing a child drowning in your neighbor’s yard? Breaking the law to get into trouble is breaking the law. The laws are in place for a reason. If your neighbor has a fence up and no trespassing signs and someone drags their children into that back yard and then lets them drown in the pool, which was the law that could have stopped the tragedy? The one that was in place to keep it from happening or the one that might deter someone from rescuing the child?
But by your own logic about breaking the laws, let’s look a little deeper. With so many children being accompanied by strangers or traveling alone, why wouldn’t you detain the children separately until you can determine the facts surrounding them? It would actually be better to separate children from their parents for a period to determine the truth than to let human trafficking go on.
But the obvious answer to all this is: Build the wall. If we keep these invaders out of our country, then we don’t have to worry about how we treat them when they get here illegally.

If the child was trespassing I still go in to save her.

But the root of the problem is the parents of the child that put them in harm’s way. That is what you are avoiding.

Here’s a thought to consider. When Obama was elected president, he a Dem majority in both the House and the Senate. They did nothing about immigration at that time. Then, after 2 years, they lost the House, but retained the Senate. They still did nothing about immigration. It wasn’t until 2014 that the Dems lost control of the Senate. In 6 years they did nothing about immigration, except choose to not enforce the law. Meanwhile, it was under the Obama administration that the imprisoning of children started. Yet not one liberal said boo about it. Now, all of the sudden this is a huge deal. President Trump has tried to do what Obama refused to do…he tried to make Congress do their jobs and pass some sort of immigration reform. And they refuse. It is both Repubs and Dems refusing. So why is it suddenly all President Trump’s fault? We have laws describing how to immigrate to this country. Why is it so horrible to enforce the law? If you think the laws are bad and are blaming President Trump, you are really messed up. The POTUS does not make the laws…that is supposed to be Congress doing that. Why aren’t you railing against your congressmen to do something?

I’m talking about what is being done, I’m not harping on Trump, I’m asking about Sessions’ quote from the Bible, the general meaning of it according to how Christians perceive it, and if Christians who are supporting what is being done at the detention centers, actually support it, or just are going along with following the law.

If the same was being done under Obama’s I question it the same way. I do wish Obama had done regarding immigration reform.

The railing in this nation is more anti-Trump hysteria.

About six major events have happened in the past two weeks, The most notable is the de-nuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. The Left used to be very dedicated to the cause of peace and the reduction on nuclear weapons. They can’t let us celebrate this success towards world peace, where we were once in the nuclear path of a crazy world dictator but now that dictator is complying with our president’s plan toward peace. Instead, the Left and the media have stirred this issue up and is blaming it on Trump.

When I first read the question, I found out it was a movement for the children. But when I really looked at the issue I discovered it was another tiresome nationwide series of anti-Trump rallies, designed to keep our eyes off the historic, international successes of President Trump.

I really hate to see this cause being used for political purposes/hysteria justification, where it has been compared to the Holocaust and the result of a dangerous and deranged president’s policies. It started under Obama, And Trump has pushed for immigration reform since his inauguration.

I don’t compare it to the Holocaust, but some of this is new under Trump from what I understand. A few months ago the rules changed and immigrants are now processed as federal criminals in a way that they weren’t before.

Both sides use things like this to make the other side look bad. Both are guilty. We don’t have to be guilty of that here. We can try to discuss the facts and say our opinions.

As much as you accuse democrats of not seeing Trump accurately, is the same amount republicans don’t see the whole picture either in my opinion.

I still say there is a lack of “there but for the grace of God go I.” Christian Americans in America for 5 and more generations who live in predominantly Christian parts of the country with not a lot of immigrants from many places tend to feel like there is no risk for them, they don’t put themselves in the minority’s place, or the immigrants place. They don’t identify with it. They see themselves as different. Not all, I never mean all, but many do function like this. It’s like when a religious person wants prayer in school and I say, “what if the majority was Muslim, and so majority Muslim teachers, and Muslims in the government, then would you want prayer in school?” I’ve asked that many many times. 90% of the time the answer I get is, “I wouldn’t live in a Muslim country.” It leaves me dumbfounded.

This is not asking you to put yourself in the “criminals” place, because the crime to try to go to a better country is not the same as raping and pillaging. One is an act of seeking safety, freedom, and prosperity, the other is assaulting people.

We have in this country a kind of ‘Civil’ God, in spite of the Separation issues.

God is mentioned in so many quotes and founding documents. Many of our founders were Freemasons, and in a general way, it is sort of a Masonic God we have in America. But it is fairly much the same as the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob—and with Christianity. Islam was once a religion that made advancements in arts, sciences, mathematics, architecture—I have to admit that I am fascinated by Islamic architecture. I am no fan of the Islamic religion today because of the way its theocracies work. But I would include Islam in its classic form in with the American ‘Civil’ God and not object to its prayers as long as they are focused on God and not one people or another.

That being said, yes, you are right (and others)—there HAS been an increase in the capturing of people coming over our borders and the consequential separation of children and their families. I have recently been reading up on this. It was hard to get past the anti-Trump rhetoric to uncover the facts.

President Trump HAS made several humane and reasonable proposals in recent weeks, but they all involve building a wall as part of the eventual solution. It does not surprise me that the left-leaning, Trump-hating media has not reflected on this.

It should be a matter of discussion, not political hate.

Building a wall, or controlling our borders, would certainly prevent the separation of children and their families, and control the massive influx of children coming over our borders unaccompanied, or non-refugees, terrorists, criminals, entering our country. Many of the children seen in the overcrowded shelters in places like San Francisco are due to the influx of unaccompanied children, teenagers, and young adults pretending to be minors, crossing our borders—not children separated from their families. Once planted here, chain migration means they can bring in any relatives they want.

It is probably inevitable that this country will eventually be predominately Latino, and I think most of us are okay with that as long as our country is able to keep its infrastructure, laws, government, in place. We don’t want America to fall, and it will fall. If America falls, the rest of the world will become unstable to nuclear threats of countries that would terrorize and scorch the earth. In America, Its much more difficult when masses continue to enter without any regard as to what our nation stands for, is, and to its own unique culture as well as a place of refuge and order for a mostly unwelcoming world.

@JLeslie I have no compulsion to word things nicely for this administration. Facts are facts. But a real Christian follows Christ teaches. Which is, compassion for the weak and the poor and the defenseless and love for all our brothers and sisters. I find the second one is harder than the first but I would never use the bible to do evil to others. That goes against the whole principle of the faith. Only evil people without conscious or faith could do what they are doing.

@Pandora I believe we are basically agreeing. I don’t want Christians to follow blindly, because then they can be led by the wrong people. We all need to think for ourselves more, all of us. I’m including democrats, other faiths, everybody. Not be afraid to think differently than the groups with identify with.

I saw something about Ted Cruz coming out now and making a statement, along with many former First Ladies. I’m going to watch the morning shows this morning and see what’s going on.

Thankfully, many Methodist leaders are coming out against separating the children, so has Graham, and the Pope.

Also, Stephanie Ruhl in MSNBC reported from McAllen, TX this morning that the town is not in an uproar. It’s an issue there immigration and the children too, but the town is not turned upside down. She said down there shop owners need staff, there are help wanted signs in windows. That she expected the scene to be more animated when she arrived.

I think something will be done about this very soon. As usual, Trump is blamed. And blamed or not, Trump is usually the first to DO SOMETHING where others have only promised.

Trump should be lauded by all if he comes up with a solution, but people are saying that HE created the policy. They’ve been lied to by the news media about this, or the news media don’t have their facts straight, Reckless disregard for the truth.

I hope Trump does something. He could have been a hero and done the right thing to begin with. He could have said he became aware children were being separated and he took action right away when he realized what is happening. He missed that opportunity.

@Yellowdog Looks like the media are lying again, they just reported Trump will “sign something” to keep migrant families together.

He will overturn Sessions memorandum that was crafted by McMAsters and Miller.

How is that lying?

Thank goodness Trump is going to do something! Like I said on the other Q, now that parts of the right wing are coming out against separating the kids finally Trump is doing something. Credit to the Methodist ministers who signed the document statement it was wrong to separate the children, and the Pope, and even Ted Cruz, although Cruz probably functions on political gain at least partly, but I still give him credit.

How people who defended Trump on this are going to twist things around will be interesting.

Now, the children won’t be in foster care.

They’ll be in jail with their parents.

Trump’s executive order cannot go against what the court order passed in 1997 because it was passed by congressional order. Obama knew he couldn’t change this with an executive order. So did the morass that orchestrated this mess, as if its some new crises. Children were in those cages and ripped from their parents in the Obama years, too.

BTW I’m NOT twisting things

^^I meant in general I was interested to see the twists on the boob tube that I tune into every day.

Why should people be in jail for crossing a border? It makes no sense. Detained yes, but jail?

God forbid you ever need to escape your country and want to be treated humanely in another country.

Mind you, I am not just talking about opening our doors and letting all immigrants poor in. I am simply talking about treating people under an assumption that they are good and also desperate, while still vetting them.

They don’t have to be in luxurious quarters, it can be like a dorm room. Have school for the kids. I wonder what our other detention centers have been like over the years?

Hopefully they will be detained in moderate quarters—I think military bases will be utilized. There are also FEMA emergency camps for families during natural disasters. Oops! I said Camps.