Are the people who are separating children from families "merely following orders"?
I’m think of the Nuremberg War trials after WW II. A large number of German Army defendants said that they were “merely following orders” and that they should not be found guilty of atrocities at concentration camps and other sites of Nazi killings.
That defense didn’t work very well for the Germans.
So, are the ICE people that are breaking up families “merely following orders”? Or are they true believers in what they are doing?
Observing members:
0
Composing members:
0
79 Answers
It isn’t an “either/or” condition. They are “following orders” that they truly believe are legitimate and lawful.
There is probably both things going on. Some probably agree with it, and some probably don’t.
Immigration officials are carrying out orders that come from the very top of the Trump administration. Presumably anyone not obeying these orders is in danger of losing their job so they feel they don’t have much choice. If they didn’t do it someone else would.
It can’t be easy taking children from their mothers and some immigration officials simply lie and say the children are being taken to be bathed and will be returned shortly. This is uncomfortably close to the Nazis who pretended that those they were about to murder were going to take a shower.
I wasn’t aware people were trying to break into Nazi Germany. What country were they from? Why did they go there, knowing they would be put in concentration camps?
Lying is easier? Doubtful it’s easier for people with a conscience.
My guess is the children overall are cared for. It’s not taking children to send them to their death, or taking children to send the parents to their deaths.
The question of following orders is a great topic for discussion. My sister and I used to talk about it regarding soldiers following orders during the Iraq war. But, I just want to point out the officials following orders in TX are not following orders with lethal consequences. Yes, it can be traumatic for children and parents to separate them, I’m not arguing that. Some will be more affected than others. Certainly, prolonged separation is insane to me! I cannot wrap my head around it. My bet is the parents are more traumatized than the kids in the moment. Wouldn’t you be afraid that the government is taking your kid! Then, if you aren’t allowed to see your child for days? WTF?!
They are following orders to enforce the law as written.
It would be odd if there were such a law in the land of the free but there isn’t. There is no law on separating children from parents at the border, but rather a policy introduced recently by the Trump administration.
Just for me, @kritiper, can you cite that specific law for me?
Authoritarians with power fantasies are drawn to law enforcement. They like to impose their will and push weaker people around.
I’m not saying everyone in ICE is like that, or all cops. But the bad ones are given an license to act out their sadistic dreams.
Some governors, including some Republicans, are removing National Guard troops so they do not have to choose between disobeying orders and doing something morally reprehensible.
Have you heard the audiotape of a border agent laughing, mocking, and calling the children’s cries an “orchestra” in need of a “conductor?”
I’m sure there’s a wide array, from people following orders and appalled by what they’re doing, to those who believe quite differently. That’s always the case in such situations.
I really can’t believe there are many people enforcing this policy who take any satisfaction from it. Many of them will have children of their own. Your heart would have to be as hard as stone to do it.
^ ICE has been destroying families for years and should be abolished. It’s easy to believe that these people wouldn’t have a problem just increasing their horrors. This is an unjust institution that does horrible things. This didn’t just start. It’s just being escalated.
I can’t help but wonder what everyone thinks the solution should be. You either release everyone crossing the border illegally, into the country and hope they show up for their court hearing or you arrest the lawbreakers. Since the children can’t be jailed with the parents, they are separated and sent to live with a relative or foster home.
I know releasing everyone that comes here illegally is attractive to those that want ‘open boarders’ but many of us see drawbacks to that.
@rebbel No, I can’t. But if you can find a transcript or recording or copy of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen’s press conference of June 18th (I think that was the date), she tells all about it.
@Jaxk
Gee, what did we ever do until a couple of months ago?
@JLeslie They are “being cared for” only in the most extereme use of those words. Three or four social workers to change the diapers of hundreds of toddlers and infants. Housed in cages with no one alowed to comfort them.
Kirstjen Nielsen doesn’t even know what race her own people are. Take anything that vacuous airhead says with a huge goddamn grain of salt.
@Darth_Algar The same might be said for you.
The press conference is the closest thing I seen or heard to the truth, so anyone can take it or leave it.
I suggest that anyone concerned on this subject SEE her conference. You should SEE it, too, not just read it, @Darth_Algar , if you haven’t.
@kritiper
No, I know that Scandinavians are white. Nielsen, evidently, does not, despite being of Scandinavian heritage.
No, I can’t. But if you can find a transcript or recording or copy of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen’s press conference of June 18th
You could just say you can’t back up your statement.
“Do your own research” is an admission that you’re bullshitting.
I am wondering how horrific the conditions are in the country these people are coming from to go through all this.
I haven’t set foot in the u.s in almost twenty years and hope I never have to again ,your country is getting beyond the stage of weird.
Border cops and all other cops in general always feel their actions are making the world safer for you and me.
@zenvelo I’m just saying they can rationalize not feeling too bad aoutvthensekves as they take the children away. I’m against the families being separated.
@Jaxk If their only crime is crossing the border that’s no reason to jail them or to separate the kids from their parents. Of course, in many cases we need to detain the families for processing, but why separate them? If they are actually committing felonies like raping and pillaging, then of course they should be arrested and jailed.
Just from a selfish standpoint, it cost the tax payer more money to care for young children. If the kids are with their parents, their parents are minding the children.
Put yourself in their shoes. America suddenly decides all people who have a user name that starts with J and their families are to be hunted. So, you take your family and cross to Canada. Do you want your little children separated from you? Does that make any sense?
@flutherother Since you were the first to say this (I know others followed) I will answer you.
This is NOT a Trump administration policy. It has been going on for at least 13 years.
Trump may, as usual, be the first to do something ABOUT it, however.
No one GAVE a damn until it became something they could blame on Trump, to detract from his successes with North Korea.
The children who are separated from their parents are sent to relatives or foster homes. They are not kept in cages. The parents have been arrested and are in detention. They could be jailed WITH their parents, and that’s likely what will happen.
Jail with parents are worse conditions than the foster homes, which provide better food and clothing and education—but agreed that separation from parents is indeed a child’s worst fear.
@Yellowdog Just to be clear, are you saying Trump is the first one to act on an existing law/policy about separating the children? Or, that other administrations separated children from parents also?
The parents should not be in jail! Just for crossing the border. Detained yes, but in with hardened criminals? No! Is that what is happening?
It was going on before the Obama administration. The first pictures I saw of this atrocity were taken in 2014.
There is a much greater surge of people attempting to cross the border in recent years, mainly because Mexico and some agencies in the U.S. have made it easier to get from South America through Mexico. Mexico of course doesn’t give them asylum so encourages/helps them to get across the border—though it is very dangerous to get here the ways available (coyotes, traveling with drug cartels, etc) Also there is a lot of human trafficking at the border and some attempting to enter are captured by human traffickers.
@Darth_Algar – We simply released everyone into the country. It was called “Catch and Release’, maybe you missed it.
@Yellowdog So, you agree it’s an atrocity? Why not be saying that rather than defending Trump?! The right can encourage Trump to change it! To not use the children as pawns to pass other legislation. Go for it. Be part of the voice to stop separating children from their parents.
Edit: in 2014 we had a large surge suddenly of people crossing the border. I have no doubt we didn’t handle it perfectly. We don’t have a huge surge right now, it’s the government tripping stuff up and separating kids in instances when we didn’t before. The government is creating a larger immigration problem at the border than it needs to be at this moment in time.
Of course I believe its an atrocity.
About the only thing it has in common with the Holocaust (and DOES have in common with the Holocaust, as I’ve read MANY memoirs of people who were children during the Holocaust and WW/II)—childrens’ greatest fear is not bombs or losing ones home—children fear being separated from their parents the most.
It is not a child’s fault that their parents committed a crime and put their children in harm’s way— or if a child comes over with someone who is not even a parent.
During WWII children had the option to be resettled in Palestine (soon to be Israel) as orphans—where they could be cared for. But this was more traumatising to them than being separated from their parents, who could not come. Consequently, many faced the gas chambers—but being sent to Palestine as an orphan was worse because it meant separation from their parents,
I think something will be done about this very soon. As usual, Trump is blamed. And blamed or not, Trump is usually the first to DO SOMETHING where others have only promised.
Trump should be lauded by all if he comes up with a solution, but people are saying that HE created the policy.
@Yellowdog This is NOT a Trump administration policy. It has been going on for at least 13 years.
Trump may, as usual, be the first to do something ABOUT it, however.
I think by “do something” you must mean extreme enforcement of the policy to an absurd point, and then pointing the blame finger at predecessors and/or political opponents for creating such a horrible system.
I don’t trust the ACLU. You don’t trust Donald Trump.
That’s all fair dinkham. We can ALL agree that separating children from parents when apprehended at the border needs to stop.
Now, lets work on a viable solution.
I think that is coming pretty soon now.
@Strauss You are detracting by saying I said something I didn’t say.
Do you have the same illness as those who deliberately misquote or slander the President?
Detracting or lying about a person’s post is tantamount to being nothing more than a troll
@JLeslie – Jailed vs detained? Is there a difference?
Keep in mind that there are hundred or thousands of children coming across the border by themselves. Their parents have sent them along alone. You still need facilities for them. Also you have parents that have illegally entered more than once, that’s a felony. We all would like to not have have this problem but it isn’t a problem we created. Those illegally crossing the border created it.
This may be modded for being off topic, but I can’t help but wonder how many fine Evangelical Christians are supporting this Un American bull shit. If any of that Judgement Day / Second Coming stuff is true, I suspect those people are in for a hell of a shock. No pun intended.
The truth is that Trump put himself in a bind when he decided to ramp up detainments without the infrastructure to support the predictable load. Ideally, there should be facilities where families can be housed intact, but even Trump has the sense to realize that migrants housed and treated reasonably would find such confinement paradise compared to the plight driving them North. It’s clear that he is banking on word getting back to Guatemala and Honduras about the “gringos” snatching babies from mothers, but it is a pointless exercise. The rigors endured getting here should be proof enough of the desperation propelling folks here.
@Call_Me_Jay If you want to assume that I’m not telling the truth, that is your problem. Keep this in mind next time before shooting off your mouth: NEVER assume ANYTHING! Because when you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME. But in this case it’s just you…
@Darth_Algar Hey! You’re the guy who talks to the tooth fairy, as I recall…
What kind of bullshit can be the result of that??
@rebbel Watch the press conference!
@Yellowdog Of course this was Trump administration policy. The separation of families was a direct result of Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy. Trump has now reversed his decision which only proves he was responsible.
This is typical Trump. He introduces a policy without thinking through the consequences of his actions. There are many examples, pretty much everything Trump does in fact. A worse president would be hard to imagine.
@kritiper
Holy fuck. Not only did the point sail a mile over your head back then, but you’re still dwelling on that? What’s it been? A couple of years now?
@kritiper Yeah, I read what you wrote before, and I have watched it.
But you could also have directed me to a recipe on hot chicken wings, since my question was “cite me the specific law, if you please?”.
@Flutherother The policy goes back to a congressional decision made in 1997 under the Clinton administration, by the Democrats—that children could NOT remain incarcerated with their parents over twenty days. That’s why they were separated from their parents and put in foster care or sent to relatives.
Sean Hannity played a montage today of Obama—21 times during Obama’s eight years whence he explained why he (Obama) could not override it with an executive order.
Today, Trump DID sign an executive order so that children would not be separated from their parents and would be detained together.
Trump’s Zero Tolerance policy IS still in place, however. He did not sign that away. He signed an executive order to override the 1997 congressional ruling.
A democratic judge will probably rule it unconstitutional, however. to override the 1997 congressional ruling. Even Obama didn’t try to do it.
@rebbel Contact the Dept. of Homeland Security and I’m sure they’ll be able to help you.
I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t work for the Dept. of Homeland Security. I’ve only repeated what I found out by watching that conference. If you want to know what law it is, do your own research.
”They are following orders to enforce the law as written.”
My bad.
Since you stated it so resolutely I thought for a second that you were yourself convinced that it was a law.
Hence my desire to see said law.
I am convinced that it is law because it makes sense. And the secretary said it so profoundly and with such great resolution to the TV cameras and the reporters that it could only be true and be law. I’m sure any police dept. or FBI office, ICE office, Dept. of Immigration office would be able to answer any questions regarding exactly what the law really is.
It doesn’t matter how I said it as much as how she said it. And of all I’ve heard, what she said sounded the most truthful.
^ And people wonder how the whole Nazi thing happened…
^ I guess there are anarchists where ever one goes…
@kritiper: ”^ I guess there are anarchists where ever one goes”
I wish.
From what I just read Trump has seen the light. Too bad for him he didn’t do it a couple of weeks ago, he could have been a hero, saying he was upset once he found out how the family separation was playing out. He missed his opportunity. Now, he’s just reacting under pressure from clergy, the Methodist Church, the Pope, Graham, and politicians like Ted Cruz. At least some religious people understand you don’t just go along with what the president dictates like sheep.
I’m not saying everyone on this thread was going along like sheep, but too many people were talking about doing just that as the right thing and it’s scary.
But Trump’s executive order isn’t legal.
In 1997, a court order was issued making it illegal for minors crossing the border to be detained in jail for more than 20 days.
Now, they will not be separated from their parents. They will be in jail WITH their parents.
Some Federal judge will declare what Trump did to be illegal, by signing the executive order. He is going against congress.
Some Judge will order all these minors released and on their own. Probably the parents, too, because, remember, we can’t separate the families.
I think that the observation that can be made about this whole zero tolerance / child separation fiasco is that it was poorly planned, poorly implemented, and terribly explained by all different agencies of the federal government.
Why they would come up with this sort of plan and not be mindful of the optics – how bad it would look – is completely baffling.
This is, in my assessment, another sign of the horrific incompetence and ideological motivation that marks this administration.
Sooo—we can’t separate the children and put them in foster care. We can’t detain them in prison with their parents more than twenty days—
Obviously we simply release the children. But since we can’t let them be separate from their parents, we release everyone who claims someone is their child. We release them all unless they don’t have a child with them.
This was set up to fail no matter what happens. The result will be a country free of borders, which Trump will also be slammed with.
@Yellowdog – Trump picked this fight, and he had Sessions do his dirty work. This action was not forced on Trump, it was his choice to make it an issue. And so he did, rather poorly.
If he really wanted to solve the entire immigration issue, he would negotiate in good faith with the democrats and the moderate republicans. He would search for a middle ground. And he would get the job done.
But he is so beholden to the core right wingers that he doesn’t have the courage or the balls to actually work on a real solution. He would rather be a blowhard than a leader.
Bottom line – if he would govern instead of be a tyrant, people would work with him. But that is not in his personality and is not the way he wants to be president. If Trump would be a leader instead of an asshole, a lot could get done.
@Yellowdog – “The policy goes back to a congressional decision made in 1997 under the Clinton administration, by the Democrats”
In 1997 Republicans controlled both chambers of Congress.
Trump signed an executive order stopping the separation of families.
So now we will see conservatives upset that he is not following the law and ruling by executive order like a dictator.
Right?
Nah, they’ll praise him for his mercy.
@Darth_Algar It was a Democrat bill. It was passed because it was abhorrent to keep children in detention with the adults. The children in cages became a matter among advocates during the Obama administration, but NOBODY gave a damn except a few advocates for change in the policy. Obama said 21 times during his administration that he could not write an executive order overriding this congressional decision because ‘we are a nation of laws’
You SHOULD be hoping for change for the benefit of the children. Most Democrats and the media are wanting bad PR for Trump, and still don’t give a damn about the children (the small percentage who are actual children of those attempting to enter the nation for a better life).
AS I READ THIS THREAD, I read over and over that this is an effort to make Trump look bad, and blame it on Trump—but no real concern for the children—nor any regard for the problems with the influx of illegal persons crossing our borders.
Oh goddamn, get over your persecution complex already. Not only do you cling to it for yourself, but you project it on to others as well. Nobody is making Trump look bad aside from Trump himself. Most people truly find the man’s statements, actions and policies genuinely repugnant.
As much as I disagree with a lot of what @Yellowdog has said on the topic of these kids on more than one Q, I will agree on one thing, there is a little pawn playing on the side of the Democrats too. Trump might be a liar, but the Democrats are stubborn, semi-hysterical (sometimes for very good reason) and do not want to do anything that might make Trump look correct or good in any way.
A couple of days ago Meghan McCain said on The View, “can we all just agree that if Trump won’t sign something to stop separating the children from their parents that congress should pass something stating just that, nothing else atratched to it, to get this over with.” Something to that effect. Whoopi, Joy and Sonny would not agree, they just kept harping that Trump should do it. Meghan also felt Trump should do it, that someone or some governing body should do it. She wasn’t giving Trump a pass. They would not agree with Meghan. They practically put their hand in her face to get her to shut up. Both sides of the aisle do watch that show.
Meghan also felt Trump should do it, that someone or some governing body should do it. She wasn’t giving Trump a pass. They would not agree with Meghan.
“They” are not in Congress and the Democrats in Congress can’t pass anything.
“They” are not in the White House and the Democrats can’t sign an executive order.
“They” didn’t ramp up a policy designed to terrorize children. This was not an accident. It was deliberately abusive and hateful.
Knock if off with “both sides are bad”. The Republicans do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. It’s the party of Roy Moore. It’s the party of Nazis are “very fine people”. It’s the party of “grab them by the pussy”.
It’s also the party of protect the wealthy, the poor are only poor by choice.^^
@Call_Me_Jay the Democrats can pass things in Congress with the cooperation of the republicans. If the Democrats had put on the table not to separate the kids and the Republicans didn’t sign/vote for it, then we could blame the Republicans in Congress.
Or, are you saying congress didn’t actually have the legal power to do it? It had to be executive order? That’s not how I understood the situation.
”...with the cooperation of the republicans…”
Good joke.
^^Then they couldn’t blame it on the Democrats. Why was the point of not drawing it up two weeks ago? Just to make Trump look bad? it worked in the eyes of the Democrats, Trump looks like an idiot. He was completely wrong, he was able to do an executive order. He already is a liar and idiot to Democrats. The people who love him don’t care that he was wrong about the executive order from what I can tell.
Congress needs to get its act together now. Congress passed it and Bill Clinton signed it into law in 1997 . Congress can change it now and Trump can sign it into law in 2018
Obama didn’t even attempt it.
I am realizing that many of you really believe the news sources without question, but I’ve seen a montage on Sean Hannity of 21 times when Obama addressed the issue. The footage can’t be faked.I remember becoming aware of the issue in 2000 and 2014.
@Yellowdog Right now it doesn’t matter if Obama did it or not. The point is Trump said he couldn’t change it under executive order, and that was false! He tried to blame the democrats. If you want to say the democrats could have done something go ahead, I said they should have drawn something up, but it doesn’t change that Trump was full of crap, and playing the politics game too. Why defend him?
Obama was known as the Deporter in Chief among Latin American immigrants, yet republicans make it like he was permissive and soft on immigration.
Ugh.
What about Sessions? Using religion to get the republicans to believe and trust blindly. You should be furious about that, but instead you supported it. I just have a really hard time understanding that. I have a hard time understanding everybody lately though.
the Democrats can pass things in Congress with the cooperation of the republicans
I see you are unfamiliar with the federal legislative process. And also unfamiliar with the fact that Republicans vary from far-right to extreme far-right.
Republicans can pass bills with no Democratic votes, and in fact they want no Democratic votes. They follow the “Hastert Rule” which says that any bill that gets a single Democratic vote is too liberal
^^I thought they needed 60 votes in the senate to pass something for this issue. Is that incorrect?
I had to Google this. You are correct, they need 60 votes in the Senate to pass a bill. So I was wrong in saying Republicans can pass a bill without Democrats IN THE SENATE.
Still, the onus is on Republicans. In the House they need zero Democrats. Any bill has to pass the House regardless.
And the House is the home to the far, far right Republican extremists.
The Republican House does not consider normal human decency to be a virtue.
@JLeslie – I’m addressing this to you simply because you seem to be the only rational person on this thread. When Trump said we needed legislation to resolve this problem he wasn’t lying despite the executive order. The truth is, his executive order flies in the face of existing court rulings that prohibit keeping those families together longer than 20 days. The ‘Flores Agreement’ from 1997 states that children must be removed from detention to the least restrictive location possible as soon as possible. Then in a 9th circuit ruling that was further defined as within 20 days. Even in the text of the Executive Order itself, it says that they will need relief from the Flores agreement.
It all gets pretty complicated but if you read the two links you will at least get a sense of how complicated it is.
@Yellowdog You are detracting by saying I said something I didn’t say.
I intentionally quoted you in italics at the beginning of my post. My comment is not a misquote of your statement, it is an expression of my opinion and observation.
@Jaxk The way I understand it, previously, the relatives would pick up the children, but now the relatives are having their legality questioned, and so those without papers won’t come forward to take the children. Some people obviously don’t have relatives here, so then the point is moot.
There was a recording of a girl crying saying she wanted to go to her aunt, and that she has her aunt’s phone number. My guess is her mom had drummed into the girl’s head to ask for her aunt and to memorize the number. They must know how it all works. I don’t know how expediently this administration is calling in the relatives already living here when that is an option?
I used to hear about some of the detention centers in Miami, I don’t know what typically went on there. That was mostly Cubans and Haitians obviously. I don’t know if the children were separated there? It would be interesting to know. Cubans floated over more than most people realize, unless you live here in Florida.
I can’t help but think of Hurricane Katrina. Law is that the Fed can’t go into the states unless asked to. The LA governor didn’t ask, didn’t do her job quickly enough, the Fed should have ignored the law in face of her incompetence. Because Bush didn’t, he was in the end incompetent too.
My guess is the law you linked was enacted in the spirit of putting the burden on HHS to care for the children, to show compassion for the children. We have to stick with that spirit of the law, and do what is compassionate. Maybe we need to rethink that law. I don’t see any reason why parents can’t be in touch with their children even if the child is removed. Skype, phone, visits, etc. Personally, I think we can have family friendly facilities. Sometimes it might be necessary to separate the kids, but the majority of the time I can’t see why that would be the case.
What is completely unacceptable is not knowing for sure where the children are. Is that really happening? They are having trouble matching the child to the parent? That’s an outrage.
Answer this question 
This question is in the General Section. Responses must be helpful and on-topic.
Composing members:
0
