In your opinion.How would it change American people's thoughts on immigration, if all the southern border immigrants were Caucasian?

Technically, they ARE “Caucasian. They just happen to be a darker variety.

But if they were Northern European, they would be told where aid agencies and resettlement assistance are located.

I think they’d want them to be vetted, too.

But they can just walk through from Canada. Why isn’t there a sense of urgency about that?..

No urgency because the impetus to crash the Canadian border isn’t from North to South. How many Canadians do you imagine are desperate to escape their homeland for life in Trump’s United States?

Well. What conservatives always bring up are drug, and human traffickers, terrorists, murderers, and rapists. Those types of people would still have motivation to cross from the north, right? So. By that logic, the northern border is in desperate need of a wall…

We have the same problem @stanleybmanly we have people south of our border trying to get across all the time too, trying to escape persecution and so forth looking for a better life in the great land of Canada.

Lots of Russian ladies coming to have their babies in Miami. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/11/russians-paying-big-money-to-have-their-babies-born-in-us.html

Not quite emigrating, sure, but hey! Let’s have American babies that don’t need vetting!

Yes. From what I hear, the more astute Hispanics are trending toward hot footing through the United States straight to Squeek’s country.

It’ about the law. Not the race!

Why is nobody upset that the pregnant Chinese women fly over here simply to have their baby here??? Yes, they go back home; but at some point, we’re going to have an influx of Chinese children demanding to be US citizens. Nobody ever talks about that!!!

@LadyM Are they legally allowed to be here?

Wouldn’t change it at all.

Some people have short memories:
Trump wants fewer immigrants from “shithole countries” and more from places like Norway

It is about race. And if someone tells you different they are a liar.

And you racists better enjoy the dollar menu while it lasts.

@KNOWITALL . I’m afraid I can’t provide a link, but yes. I have heard of large amounts of pregnant Chinese women coming here to have children. In some articles I have read, there are like “travel agents,” that organize the logistics of birthing a child here.
The Chinese have also allegedly bought up large swaths of Detroit, and other cities, that were vacant due to the recession.

One could infer a possible link…

Having a US born child, is a big deal. With the population of China, the competition is incredibly fierce. People really have to be elite to get ahead. Those people want the same thing as the immigrants from the south. A better life for their families. The Chinese I were referring to are better off financially, than their South/Central American counter parts.

@Call_Me_Jay .Yes! Such rhetoric, combined with actions that seem to represent the rhetoric.

It’s pretty transparent, to me.

Honestly, Trump speaks with great inference of disdain, when even talking about brown people, much less immigrants. His crowds usually grumble in accepting ways too, at his rallies. Trump just drives his supporter’s minds…

According to the federal government being Hispanic is NOT a race. Most Hispanics are Caucasian, some are black, some maybe could reasonably say they are Native American actually. Not that it matters. For whatever reason, “racist” is now used even when we are not talking about a race, it can be any minority it seems from sexual orientation to country of origin.

Ok, so if most of the people coming across the boarder were from northern or Eastern Europe would people still be up in arms? Probably so. As long as people are feeling a crunch economically they will find a group to blame. The Jews were white in Germany, and it didn’t stop the Germans from wanting to get rid of us. Some of us even have blonde hair and blue eyes, which Hitler coveted.

Since many Latin Americans are darker than someone from Sweden, they are more easily targeted, more easily found out in a crowd. Then, if they can’t speak English well, uh oh.

It’s about the numbers. A lot of Latin Americans have been coming in for the last 30 years, so they are more easily targeted. When a minority group starts to seem big to the majority, then the majority starts taking notice. Otherwise, the few are just a novelty, and usually felt to be non-threatening. If a lot of Irish people started coming over they would have a target on them too.

I don’t see the same reaction to Irish that have stayed illegally after their tourist visa expires. And ICE has never raided the San Francisco Irish Cultural Society, despite it being rife with undocumented Irish.

For whatever reason, “racist” is now used even when we are not talking about a race, it can be any minority it seems from sexual orientation to country of origin.

Racism has come to mean discrimination based on ethnicity and appearance. Which works because race isn’t an exact term anyway.

Nobody uses the word for sexual orientation. Don’t exaggerate.

And nitpicking about the word is a common diversion tactic among racists, used to deflect the conversation away from the bigots’ actions and words. Don’t play their game.

@zenvelo You can’t compare Irish immigration numbers to Latin American immigration numbers the last ten years. There have been bigots in our country historically against whichever group is coming over in big numbers. When the Irish were coming over in big numbers here there was plenty of hate.

The place where I agree that Hispanics get it more than someone Irish is that since a lot of those who emigrate here have ancestry indigenous to the Americas or parts of Europe that skin and hair tend to be darker, they stand out, and so are easier targets for hatred. Like why part of the reason slave owners favored to bring black slaves to America rather than white endentired servants, because if one had escaped he wouldn’t blend into a crowd of white people, and the authorities could stop and question all the black people they came across unattended or who didn’t look familiar. Being “white” certainly is helpful in a lot of circumstances, I’m not going to deny that. Being a girl I have other reasons though to feel vulnerable so there’s that.

Look up the numbers for immigration and you will see that immigration from Mexico is huge for a while now. Add in immigrants from other countries in Latin America it gets higher. They are not evenly spread across the nation, they have dense numbers in some places.

The general way people seem to function is when a lot of one group moves in, a portion of people who were there “first” get very ansie. When a part of that group gets a lot of negative attention from the media it doesn’t help.

Too often new groups who come in on the lower economic scale have an element that isn’t good. Remember the gangs of NY? The Italian mafia? Now, we have MS-13 (MS-13 is actually not very recent, they have been a problem for years). Thats what is in our faces in the media and plays on the fears of the people. Not statistics like first generation Hispanics born here do almost as well as their “white” counterparts. The numbers are so close it’s barely worth differentiating. Education numbers, prosperity, etc. they aren’t in gangs more or committing crimes more as group, and the do assimilate like every other group in American history, except maybe the Amish who adhere more strictly to their lifestyle, but they are small in numbers, and concentrated in just a few areas of the country.

@Call_Me_Jay Not a game. I didn’t even know they try to play any game with that. Most “racist” people I know do consider Hispanics to be a different race. I’m not the only one pointing out that Hispanics are white (or can also be black, Asian, etc). Hell, if we are going to use the word Hispanic synonomous with being from Latin America, that’s not really accurate by the classic definition either. They can be Asian, German, etc. My friends from Latin America are extremely varied ethnically. Chinese, Italian, German, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish, Arab…The Americas are full of people from all over the world.

I was stating that racism now seems to encompass more than race. It’s not a game. I’m not sure why including gay people is offensive. People discriminating against gay people not wanting them to have equal rights, wanting them to disappear, It’s really not much different. In fact, I’d say it’s not different at all. So, do we use the term racist for anti-semites? A lot of Jewish people don’t like Jews being called a race. In fact a lot of jellies don’t like using race terms at all except for the word racist. There is some irony in that.

I was not saying that racist people aren’t racist. I’m not making some sort of excuse for their behavior, I’m just talking about the evolution of the word. Just like Americans use “Asian” for east Asia only, which I had to get used to. I think of Asia as the continent of Asia, and in fact my UK friend who’s family is from Pakistan calls herself Asian.

Don’t make my statement more than it is.

Are you saying being a bigot isn’t as bad as a racist? Is that why it bothers you? To me they are fairly synonymous, I asked a question about it on fluther once, people seemed to agree. Just a question about definitions and semantics.

I was dwelling on the ignorance of those who consider Hispanics a race, when they are not officially categorized as a race, they are just a group, a group that is divided into many races.

It’s just interesting to me how words change. We don’t use Anti-Hispanic we use racist. That’s fine. I’m fine going along with the trend as a means of good communication. I just think it helps the haters push the idea that Hispanics are different than themselves. The haters are racist, and so framing Hispanics as a different race feeds their rhetoric I think. The problem with what I said there is it’s like saying you shouldn’t hate them, because actually they are white like you, but then what do you say for the people they hate who are black or Chinese? Those people are ok to hate? Of course not, so that’s where my “argument” falls down a little.

I can only speak for myself. It wouldn’t make a whit of difference. I don’t care if they are white, brown, black, yellow, or green. They are violating the sanctity of our national borders. That is the issue. I would be all for deporting them if they were all caucasian.

White border crossers won’t be demonized, use as political pawns and treated inhumanely by Republicans.

Ummm…just a reminder….all the stuff that you are whining about on how the illegals are being treated by President Trump was started under Obama. He was a Dem. He had the support of the Dems. And the Dems, while having a majority in the House, Senate and the Presidency opted to do nothing about immigration reform. So you might want to rethink limiting your hatred to only Republicans.

Do yourself a favor and eliminate accusations of hate and hatred from these conversations. You can’t seriously dismisss these accusations against Trump’s policies as motivated by hatred. On my side of the argument here, I don’t talk about anything as silly as Trump’s hatred of Hondurans or Mexicans even with his marked proclivity for saying blatantly hateful things about both.

regarding the above I just read that 84% of Americans want illegals turned over to the law!

regarding the above I just read that 84% of Americans want illegals turned over to the law!

It was on the Internet so it must be true!

@stanleybmanly let me point out that Honduras has among the highest murder rates in the world. They have a huge gang and drug problem. How is it hatred to want to avoid letting that into this country? Particularly illegally?? Let me ask…If the country decided to start relocating MS-13 members into your neighborhood to make them as comfortable as possible, how would you feel? Would you leave your door unlocked or your car? Or would you beef up security in your home?

@Call_Me_Jay That seems to be good enough if you hear it on MSNBC or CNN or see it on any of the liberal websites.

I don’t understand your post as a reply to my own. Are you saying that you DO hate Hondurans? Or maybe you’re telling us Trump hates Honduran refugees and is justified in doing so?

He’s using the same strategy. Use the anomalies, to represent the majority. Pure BS.

@seaqulf575 . Would you want rapists from Canada living in your area? Not a problem right?

@stanleybmanly your mind seems incapable of anything other than hate. Everything has to come down to hate for you. I thought I put it pretty clearly. There is a lot of violence in Honduras and it isn’t hatred to not want that violence coming to our country. It is common sense. Hatred doesn’t come into play at all. Except in your mind where someone has to hate someone.

@MrGrimm888 absolutely not! That is why I am against illegal immigrants! So let me ask…why is it wrong to try keeping illegals from our country? They haven’t been vetted, they are violating our laws just in how they entered the country which makes me wonder how they would behave once on this side of the border. Yet you seem to support letting them pour across the borders.

YOU are the one fixated on hate. YOU are the one framing all criticism of the dummy as hatred. It’s Trump haters this and Republican haters that. YOU constantly accuse those here who disagree with you of hatred and it cheapens your every argument.

Sorry @seawulf575 I totally have to agree with @stanleybmanly on this.^^

Sorry @SQUEEKY2 I totally have to agree with @seawulf575 on this.

Re-read the last few posts by both of them and see which seems fixated on hatred by a party or a person, and the other who is trying to have a reasonable conversation.

I will take credit for the issue in the last few posts, but I raise the issue because the wulf & dog (and apparently you as well) do not have the wit to appreciate the dismissive accusation of hate is not sufficient response to the absolutely VALID crititcisms of Trump. I understand why the tactic is utilized, but every time it is amounts to an open admission that “I have no other defense.”

As I said before, Trump’s behavior toward immigrants is demonstrably hateful, but I do not believe that Trump, you, the dog or wulf hate immigrants. I don’t refer to any of you as haters, because not only does it distort the truth, but it is a petty fallback from rational argument, and should be avoided if you are to debate here with any semblance of credibility. YOU CAN DO BETTER

@stanleybmanly And as I have said before, President Trump continued on the policies that Obama set up. I have yet to see you say that Obama’s behavior towards immigrants is demonstrably hateful.
My coaching to you about the hate is to take a minute to view your posts before you hit the Answer! button. You come across as a very negative person that has nothing nice to say about anyone. You use the term “hate” quite frequently, even if the conversation has not used it once. I don’t really view you as a stupid person, but I do get the impression that you have a hard time opening your mind.

@stanleybmanly So you want me to say Trump hates minorities or has acted or spoke in hate, or legislated in hate, is that it? I can see why you feel that way, but I do not.

The only issue I take with this post of yours is that you are saying we lack the wit to understand the situation, but I think what makes you angry is that we see it differently. I don’t agree with everything he says and does, but no, I don’t truly believe he is a racist.

So I guess you can call us witless or dummies or whatever you like, but I won’t sink to the level of name-calling. Or hate.

OH?^^ And when he said we have to keep people from shit hole countries out, was said with love?
And a Muslim travel ban,was put in place with love and understanding??
You keep defending Trump is just following Obamas policies, the same Obama that Trump wants to destroy any legacy,that Obama, the same Obama you guys always talked about with utter vile ,and contempt that Obama?

@SQUEEKY2 You are bringing to mind all that the left does so well. You take pieces and interpretation and try passing them as whole stories. And you work yourself up in the process. Let’s back it up a bit. It wasn’t a Muslim Travel Ban. It was a travel ban on nations that have made overt threats to us or that knowingly supported ISIS and other terrorist groups that have threatened us. And it wasn’t even a ban…it was more of a delay. People could still come from those countries, but they had to be properly vetted. We’ve been over this. Of the 7 countries on the ban one was North Korea and one was Venezuela. Those are not Muslim majority countries. The other 5 were, but there are 50 countries in this world that are 50% or greater Muslim. If this was a Muslim travel ban, there would have been 45 more countries on the list. So please, stop taking part of the story to try pushing a hate story.
I’m not defending Trump following Obama policies. What I AM doing is pointing out the hypocrisy that people are getting fully wound up about how horrible Trump is when he does things that Obama started. And even when it is pointed out, they generally can’t get to the point of getting outraged at Obama along with Trump. I do indeed think Obama was about the worst president we have ever had. He violated the Constitution more than any other president….more than ALL the presidents put together. He created divisiveness in this country the likes of which we have not seen since the hippie days of the 1960’s. I think it might actually be worse. And I, along with 70+% of Americans feel he was dragging this country down the wrong path, pushing towards socialism and open borders.
I think President Trump lacks the polish of other presidents we have had. He hits me as being somewhat pompous and arrogant, a bit childish sometimes, and just can’t stay off Twitter. But most presidents are pompous and arrogant so that, I think, goes with the job. But he is trying to enforce the law. He is trying to help America. If you feel his views on immigration are bad, please consider this: There are laws concerning immigration. Laws are created or altered by Congress, not the president (unless your name is Obama). The job of the president is to enforce the laws. President Trump has attempted to force congress to do something about immigration reform. Our congress is entirely inept and dysfunctional. They have avoided doing anything with it and only want to blame someone else. If you feel immigration policies are wrong, then write your congressmen. Write your Senators. Hold them accountable.

You forget I AM A CANADIAN, and you accuse me of cherry picking and making a big deal out of nothing it is exactly what Trump does.
And news source after news source called it a muslim travel ban.Even ole orange hair himself called it a muslim travel ban, or did you miss that one?
You say Obama did so many things against your Constitution uh sure he had to work with a Republican house and Congress, shit if they could have nailed him for anything they would have put him in a room and thrown away the room.
So nice try.
You say Obama created more divisiveness than any other President, strange I see it more with Trump than any other President.
You say your Congress is entirely inept and dysfunctional, it’s a Republican Congress, guess you will have to just vote in a democrat Congress this fall to get back on track eh?
Trump is going to implode the USA with his tactics,alienate your closest allies, and pretty much isolate the US from the rest of the world, but you keep seeing what a bang up job he is doing I guess someone has to,might as well be you and the rest of the extreme right wingers.

@KNOWITALL How can you possibly read what I said as encouraging you to accuse Trump of hatred?

@seawulf575 I am reasonably sure that you will not find any comments of mine accusing you of hating Obama, liberals or anyone else. The only time I even comment on the word is when you start throwing simplistic accusations of my motivations being based on hate. And now that attention is forced on the issue, perhaps you will think before sliding into the lazy habit of throwing such nonsense around.

@seawulf575 Perhaps you are right regarding my inability to open my mind. But it amazes me that so many people regarding themselves as open minded appear to have facilitated only the “escape” of reason.

@SQUEEKY2 You are amusing! I really don’t care if you are Canadian or not. You obviously have enough information to justify voicing an opinion on United States politics. Unfortunately, you do what many liberals do…you trust to main stream media to tell you the truth. It doesn’t happen. Doesn’t matter if it is CNN, MSNBC or Fox…they all skew things. But do yourself a favor….do a little research before you buy into their stories. For the travel ban…go read the actual executive order. You can find it on line. Don’t trust the media, don’t trust me…do the research yourself.
Ditto that for Obama’s record on breaking the law. I have posted lists on these pages of all the things he did that violated the constitution. But I encourage you to do your own research. Here’s a scary suggestion for a liberal…go to conservative websites. I’m not saying they are more honest or less biased…but they will give you another viewpoint. If you find a list on a conservative webpage, take the time to research it. See if the things listed are true or false. And if you find a liberal site that refutes something, see which one seems less factual. For instance…you have a website that says that something happened and they cite references and they are refuted by a site that basically says “No, that is a lie” with nothing other than opinion to back it up, you might want to view the one that is willing to cite references as a more reliable source.
As for Obama getting away with it, that is simple. The Republicans didn’t control enough of the Congress to carry impeachment without Dems and the Dems were lock step with Obama. In this country, the only punishment a president can get is impeachment and removal from office. That is a two-step process. The House of Representatives can put forth letters of impeachment (make the accusation) which are then voted on. A simple majority in the House is enough to impeach the president. But impeachment alone doesn’t do anything. The president needs to be convicted which is step 2. If the House impeaches, the case then goes to the Senate where ⅔ of the members present have to vote for conviction. If you don’t get 67 votes, the impeachment dies on the vine. That is why Bill Clinton was impeached, but not removed from office. His only saving grace was that a couple Republicans didn’t vote to convict. With Obama, the Republicans knew that they could not get a single Dem to admit Obama was a criminal and vote against him in the Senate. So bringing forth impeachment was doomed before it starts. It is a waste of time, in essence.
Our congress is indeed dysfunctional. It was worse with a Dem majority, but it is still bad. Our elected leaders are corrupt and spend way too much time figuring the angle to best serve themselves and not enough time figuring the angle to help the country. And please note I am not excusing Dems, Repubs, or Indies.
President Trump may or may not “implode the USA”. He is helping us so far with things like unemployment and bringing industry back to this country. He is stepping on toes around the world, but it might be that those toes need to be stepped on. And the funny part is that there are other countries that are changing their views to match his. They are tired of the way their countries have been going under the liberal rule and are starting to take back control. I can’t say if his choices are good or bad, but I can say that it doesn’t feel like he is selling us out or that he is trying to enslave us.

No just the rest of the world that deals with the US.
I really could give a shit on your immigration ,I can’t figure out why someone would willing want to move there.
Personally I hope I never have to set foot in the states again,it’s been over twenty years since I was last down there so it’s looking pretty good.
I do give a shit on the trade side of things, a crap load of jobs depends on trade between both countries and Trump seems determined to throw a wrench in it.

Gone for a bit. @seawulf575 . I ask again then. If it’s all about the small percentage of immigrants being possibly undesirable, WHY no wall planned for Canada?

The basis of the question is that there is a gargantuan flaw, with using security as a motivation, and not race. I just don’t see the ferocity the conservatives have for brown immigrants, when discussing white ones. And not a single jelly has said one thing to show why Canadian illegals, are less of a threat, given the logic they employ.

As far as the travel ban, Trump repeatedly told his crowds, while campaigning, that he would stop all Muslims from entering the country. The wording, and so forth, in the order cannot erase his own words. It’s VERY simple… As usual, just using words straight from Don’s lips. No liberal media, no conspiracy, no slander. TRUMP’S OWN WORDS….. TRUMP’S OWN ACTIONS….

@MrGrimm888 It truly is getting old going over and over the same ground with you. This Canadian wall question you pose was good the first time. On the 4th time it’s just foolish. Now you have added another wrinkle to the question that is just as foolish. It isn’t about the small percentage of immigrants being possibly undesirable. Illegal immigration is just that…illegal. It is all undesirable. As for why no wall up north, it is a simple answer…one I have given you time and time again and which has not altered along the way. It is simple numbers. We don’t have anywhere the numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the northern border as opposed to the south. We don’t have anywhere the amount of drugs crossing the northern border. Let’s look at it this way: let’s say you are putting us security cameras on your house but they are very expensive. Do you say you have to put one on the chimney because you could have someone break in that way and therefore it has the same risk as the front door? No. It is a foolish thought.
As for the travel ban, I stand by the facts. What he says as a campaign promise is foolishness when you try to use it as a basis to ban something that is entirely different. If you want to go to campaign promises, he also altered his original position when he won the Republican nomination. So which campaign promise do we believe? Let’s take that back to the 50,000 foot view…which campaign promise from any politician do we actually believe? To try claiming a campaign promise as a reason for fighting an action that happens years later is just partisan bullshit. If you go to the EO and actually read it, no where in there does it state Muslim or Islam anywhere. It doesn’t even imply it as we have discussed ad nauseum. It isn’t even a ban. It is a delay until travelers can be properly vetted. It is a liberal media that has tried stirring these flames of dissension.

Boy it sure sounded like Trump said he wanted a travel ban on all Muslims, when he was campaigning,and it sure looked like it came straight from him.

I really wish you guys would put a wall up here,we have the same problem you do, we have people south of our border trying to sneak across escaping the awful regime of the country just south of us.

Interesting. When we talk about keeping illegals out of our country, we are evil. But you have no problem talking about it and you call it a problem.

@seawulf575 If you bother to read this, you can build a wall 50 feet tall and electrify it, you will just get Americans themselves smuggling those people across,one to fill the labor intense dirt wage farm work, that Americans won’t do.
2 for a part of profit in that illegal drug money,they bring in so you say.
I could care less if you build it or don’t.

personally, I think there is very little chance that we will see a wall. Back when the several billion dollar boondoggle was first proposed, I suggested that those favoring it look up what Patton had to say about fixed fortifications.

@seawulf575 . You’re making my point for me. Comparing the a border that stretches thousands of miles, with a chimney?

Campaign promises? The wall was a campaign promise, and Trump’s trying hard to get it. So. If he gets his wall, by your logic, it will be for completely different reasons than he claimed while campaigning?

@MrGrimm888 yes, comparing our northern border to a chimney. You can avoid the analogy if you like, though I know you aren’t that stupid. In a situation of security and probability and threat, where is our greatest problem. Is it our northern or southern border? Please, fill us in. You would have us believe it is our northern border, apparently. As I have stated before, we have probably had more illegals enter this country across the southern border than the entire population of Canada. We have had a mountain of drugs come across our southern border. What have we had come across the northern border? What is the threat from that way? Please…fill us all in.
As for the campaign promise, you are again trying desperately to avoid the point. President Trump put out an EO for limiting travel from 7 countries. That EO talks about the need to properly vet people coming from these countries. It talks about the potential threat these nations present to us. At no point in this EO is Muslim or Islam mentioned. And 2 of the 7 countries are not mainly Muslim. The left (such as yourself) in a desperate attempt to denigrate the president have termed this a “Muslim Ban”. It was challenged in court and liberal judges that do not rule on law but on agenda supported it. The SCOTUS finally ruled on it, putting it to rest. All the left can say is “He said during his campaign…”. Well guess what? He also walked that back. He said other things too. Get over it. Stop giving in to the liberal propaganda machine, man!

To be crystal clear; the amount of illegal immigrants from either border, is unverifiable. You cannot prove anything like “more people come across southern border than the population of Canada.” There’s your propaganda for you. You cannot prove the amount of drugs, rapists, or any other statistic. All of your “information,” is conservative speculation, in the most pessimistic of guesses.
It’s clear, as you cannot provide ANY other motivation, that race is the only verifiable variable. The majority of people who live beyond the US’s southern border, are non-white. Whether it’s out in the open, or subconscious, this tells me that conservatives find brown people less “desirable,” than the more likely white immigrants from the northern border…

You bring up the SCOTUS. Excellent. So by your logic, if tried there it must be ok, then I can assume that you also support abortion. As that was also made legal through that court… We’re making good progress here. Your showing me all the hypocrisy I wanted…

The exact amount of illegal immigrants coming across the borders indeed cannot be identified. However, relative numbers…yeah, those can be made. Streams of people coming across the southern border….not on the northern border. Drug cartels to our south, not to our north. MS13 from El Salvador which, oh by the way, is to our south coming across the southern border, not the northern. As for the relative number? Remember back in Obama’s time at the helm? We were estimating 9 million illegals. Then a year later it was up to 10 million, then it went to 11 million. Then amazing thing happened…they stopped increasing the number for 6 years. Everyone knows the 11 million was low when it was put out and illegal immigration did not stop for years. Canada only has about 36 million citizens. We are getting really close if not there for numbers coming across the southern border. But in the end, you are nitpicking. You know exactly how silly your “put a wall along our northern border” sounds and are just trying to be obstinate.
As for race being an issue, please look at my very first answer on this thread. I don’t care about race or sex or religion. The issue is that THEY ARE BREAKING OUR LAWS! As a LEO, you ought to have a better respect for the law and the need for it. The fact that your racist mind can only focus on race is not my problem and I will not let you assign your issues to me.
Whether I support abortion or not is irrelevant. It is the law of the land. There are avenues for changing the law. Attacking abortion centers is not the way. Actually, I believe protesting at abortion centers is a huge waste of time too. I equate that to the hateful protests against returning soldiers back in the 60’s. But let’s be clear…the law is not that abortion is mandatory, therefore people have an option as to whether they want it or not. In this case, President Trump’s EO has been proven by the law to be Constitutional and well within the power of POTUS to enact. Get over it. If it were a “Muslim ban”, it could not be Constitutional. And to be perfectly honest, if it were worded as a ban on Muslims, I would have been right there on your side decrying it. You should know that about me by now…I am not a Republican. I am an American and an Independent voter. I can think of a number of things that came out of GW Bush that I argued were entirely wrong. Things like the Patriot Act, invading Iraq and then Afghanistan. These were bogus things. We all know I can list a number of things that Obama did that I felt were illegal and wrong.

I don’t understand why arguments about immigration come down to “the law” and calling immigrants criminals.

Why not just argue about what seems just and fair. The debate, if we are going to debate the topic, should be about what the laws should be, or could be, not what they are.

Immigrants are not the same as someone who rapes and kills. Calling immigrants criminals sounds like you put them in the same category. If your 10 year old son stole candy from a corner store would you call him a criminal? Not all people who break the law are the same.

Most immigrants are looking for a better life. That’s their crime. Can we take them all in just because they want to be here? No, we can’t just let everyone come in who wants to come all at once. That debate is to be had regarding who comes and the economics of it, etc.

We have to stop demonizing immigrants.

Are there some bad people who come across the border? Of course. Like any group, there are some bad people, but it is a very very small percentage.

MS-13? They are bad news. Jail them for their crimes and deport them if you think they will stay out of the country. I don’t care if they are legal here or not. Don’t think that all MS-13 are illegal, that’s doubtful in my mind. I’m fine with stripping them of their resident papers or even citizenship if they were fairly recently given citizenship.

Are there things in our society that drive young people to gangs? We need to really think about some of the underlying causes of gangs, and for sure part of it is America’s fault. Whether it be MS-13 or another gang.

Like I’ve said, first generation Americans from Latin American immigrant parents do basically just as well as their European-American counterparts. The assimilation and prosperity works the same for almost all immigrant populations.

@JLeslie The reason I feel the debate needs to come down to the law is because we, like every other country in the world, have laws concerning who we admit to our country and what the process is. We are pretty unique in the world in that we have this ongoing debate that anyone that wants to break our laws should be welcome and that it should be somehow wrong to say they should enter legally. We have laws, we need to enforce those laws. Passing immigration reform is really a scam since we don’t enforce our immigration laws now, passing new laws won’t make a bit of difference.
The people that enter this country are, indeed, criminals. They purposely broke our immigration laws to enter our country. If someone broke into your home, would they be a criminal? Would you think it should be okay for them to be there? Should someone else be able to say that it is just and fair that they get to stay there because they want it? That is the argument you are giving to our citizenry. You are putting the desires of the illegal immigrants over the rule of our laws. Without laws, we end up in chaos.
MS13 is indeed a bad lot. And you said it yourself…in every group there are going to be bad lots. That is what the immigration laws are for…to help weed out the bad lots. But when you put the desire of the immigrant over the rule of our laws, you open the door for more and more of these bad lots to enter our country and prey on our citizens. And you pointed it out yourself…deporting them will do no good since we don’t enforce our laws.
I have no problem with legal immigration. I support it as long as it is done smartly, with proper methods of vetting in place. But that is what the laws are supposed to do.
We cannot have a discussion on immigration without including the law. The law is half the debate. If you have suggestions for improving our laws, please bring them on. Send them along to your congressmen and senators. Recommend that Congress actually does its job instead of continually kicking the can down the road. And please note that I am not blaming one party or the other…our entire congress is a waste. I am also a huge proponent of term limits for all congressmen and senators.

@seawulf575 Good thing your laws weren’t in effect when your family landed on these shores or you wouldn’t be here today!!!

I keep hearing you saying over & over that ALL the illegals are rapists & criminals. I was raped by 9 Caucasian American males & nothing was done about it. Should those 9 be sent back to their country of origin??? NO, they were white & it was their right to take what they wanted because boys will be boys. I’ve never even had a Mexican try to sexually touch me; so why should I hate them just because the ONLY argument that you can come up with is that they are here illegal??? After my experience, I’d prefer an illegal Mexican to a legal Caucasian American male!!!

Is Trump not a DACA??? Should he be deported back to the country of his grandfather’s origin??? Do we know for sure that his grandfather actually came here legally??? Did either of his foreign born wives come here legally??? Trump himself will spend $100 million in attorney feess to keep from paying $100,000 in taxes. Is that not illegal??? Are we just to take your word for it that you have never done anything illegal??? I find most really judgmental people to be the ones who are doing what they don’t want others to do!!!

My question is WHY when somebody shows up at the border asking to come over that those who are truly illegal aren’t just denied entry & sent back home??? Many that came here & then had their children stolen from them were attempting to come here legally. They were welcomed with open arms & then raped by Caucasian American males!!! America was much GREATER when we welcomed people to our shores & gave them a reason to feel like they needed to be loyal to their new home. When you’re bullied every day of your life here, it is difficult to feel loyalty!!!

Since all this started, our border (Canada ) has seen a HUGE influx of refugees,asylum seekers, that are scared to death of being deported and facing torture and possible death if sent back to their own country.
And you keep saying LEGAL,LEGAL,LEGAL,
Fuck ole orange hair barely knows legal,he just throws away legal contracts because he didn’t make it(NAFTA) for just one example.
You say all news sources are fake,if ya want the truth go to a conservative web site, sure that will be all truth,uh OK excuse me for a sec(BARFFFFFFFFFFFF).
BUT I am going to agree with you, if one wants to move to a foreign country they should do it through the legal process.
BUT NOW I ask you to think about this a person, if you or your family is facing almost certain death or torture,just because of beliefs or political stance, if they stay in their home country kind of would make a person a bit desperate eh?

@LadyMarissa At no time have I stated that all illegals are rapists. I would challenge you to find anywhere that I stated that. There are some rapists that are entering the country illegally. There are some criminals that have entered the country illegally repeatedly and continue to come back and cause more hate and discontent, resulting in American victims. But that is why we have immigration laws….to prevent that sort of thing.
As for you being raped, you have my sympathies. That is a horrible, horrible thing to happen. My view is that rapists should be hung by their testicles until dead.
I have stated my views on illegal immigration repeatedly. Entering the country not in accordance with immigration laws is illegal. You shouldn’t get rewarded for that. But the rest of your challenges make no sense. If someone shows up at the border asking to come in, they are denied entry unless they meet certain criteria. The might have a travel visa. They might be asking for asylum. But if they just show up and ask to be let in, they are denied. They aren’t arrested and detained unless they actually are on US soil. At that point they are here illegally. THOSE are the people that are arrested and detained. And yes, if they have children, the children are separated from them. I have pointed out previously that we separate children from their families for a variety of reasons in this country. But generally it comes down to the welfare of the child. The parents are criminals and going to prison, the parents are abusing the children….things like that. At that point the children are either placed with a relative or placed in foster care until a more permanent resolution can be found. How is this any different? The parents have committed a crime. They were arrested.
As for President Trump being a DACA…no, he isn’t. DACA didn’t exist. His parents were not illegal immigrants. Likewise, neither Ivana nor Melania are here illegally…they entered this country and obtained US citizenship legally. But it is interesting that you bring up DACA. DACA is not a law….you know that, right? DACA was an executive action instituted by Obama that was used to overwrite the law. That in itself is illegal. Might want to ask why the left clings so hard to illegal actions from a lawless president.
If President Trump wants to pay $100M in attorney fees to avoid paying $100k in taxes, that is his business. If he avoids the taxes legally, then no, it isn’t illegal. And trust me, if he had done anything illegally on his taxes, the left would have dug it up and tried using it as fodder for impeachment. So I’m pretty confident that he hasn’t done anything illegal. As for me, have I ever broken a law? Yep. I think it is safe to say most Americans have. But here’s the difference: If I break a law and get caught, I don’t feel entitled to be excused from the law. If I get a speeding ticket and it is legit, I pay the fine. If I park illegally and get a ticket, I pay it. If I feel the ticket is incorrect I will challenge it in court. I don’t drink and drive, I don’t use or sell drugs, I don’t steal, I don’t rape, I don’t murder. But if I did any of these things, I know they are against the law and would accept the consequences of my actions if arrested. Why should someone violating our immigration laws be any different? They know up front that they are entering illegally. They know up front that if caught, they could get in trouble including detention and deportation. Yet they break the law anyway. Why should they be treated any differently from anyone else that breaks the law?

@SQUEEKY2 I would challenge that most of those entering our nation illegally are here to avoid torture and death. Most are here to seek a better life. The ones that have a credible reason to run from their country are the ones that asylum was created for. But if they are running because they are a rapist or a murderer? Nah…sorry. We don’t want them here just so they can get away with their crimes from their own country.
President Trump doesn’t like NAFTA, there is no secret there. I don’t like NAFTA either. It was an agreement that was put into place to allow big corporations to move their manufacturing to countries with lower wages and non-existent environmental regulations. It did nothing to help the US of A, other than corporate America. But…President Trump cannot just negate NAFTA on his own. He needs to get approval from Congress to alter that deal…including withdrawing from it. So your whole accusation is bogus and uninformed.
If you care to go back to re-read where I suggested you view conservative websites, you might see that I didn’t say they were any less slanted the liberal outlets. But they offer an alternate viewpoint to that you get from all the liberal outlets you use. It gives you something to consider…the other side of the story. But I also highly recommended that you take any news you get with a grain of salt until you do some research on your own. I also gave you a recommendation on how to tell a good story from a bad one. I understand that asking a liberal to open their minds is a useless effort….they are incapable of doing so. So carry on brainwashing yourself.
If my family and I were facing persecution here and our lives were threatened, I would indeed think about going elsewhere. But I would do a little research first to see where I could go and what the entry requirements would be. If I were going into Canada or Mexico for instance, I would see what their immigration policies were and start moving in that direction. If they offered asylum as an option, I might opt for that, but would ensure I had as much documentation as I could get to justify my need. And it might be that even then, I would not be allowed in. But that is how life is sometimes. If I enter their country illegally, I would be subject to their laws. Here is an interesting article that outlines Mexico’s policies for illegal immigration:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2010/04/how-mexico-treats-illegal-aliens-michelle-malkin/

Here’s another article that talks about Mexico, but it also highlights Canada as well:

https://www.npr.org/2016/12/21/505538964/police-and-illegal-immigration-what-our-neighbors-do

This article shows that Canada has the exact same attitude as I do. Funny how that is:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/912713/Canada-illegal-immigration-spike-America-Donald-Trump-thousands-arrive-US

And this article shows that most Canadians are aligned as well:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/20/illegal-immigrants-may-not-find-warm-welcome-in-canada-refugee-policy-immigration-migration-trudeau-trump-united-states-poll/

Now…you were saying?

I am trying to state that they must be checked out,to make sure they are indeed not a hardened criminal, that could cause Canadians harm, but while going through that process they must be treated humanly and fair.
Families MUST be kept together.
Not like they are all dangerous criminals.

But your stance implied that it was all President Trump’s fault that the illegals are trying to go to Canada. You seem upset that he wants to enforce the immigration laws of our nation. But you are saying that is exactly what you think should happen in Canada…enforce the immigration laws. So why is it okay for you but not for us? Canada deports immigrants as well. That’s what these illegals are trying to avoid in our country. And you blew me crap about the Travel ban. It states we need to vet the people coming from known terrorist areas. As you said, we need to make sure who they are and that they aren’t hardened criminals. Yet you act like we are wrong for wanting that. Why exactly is everything we (conservatives) want in the USA bad when it is exactly the same thing you want in Canada?

His words were something like this I Donald J Trump, want a travel ban from all Muslim countries until we can figure it what the hell is going on,Remember that???
People are afraid that visas won’t get renewed ,they won’t get their final hearing before they are deported from the USA, and these people are all blaming Trump.
As for involving Congress about NAFTA he TRUMP alone slapped tariffs against Canadian steel, and aluminum citing National security,HUH? National Security against CANADA???
He also was pissed about Dairy, American Dairy Farmers are heavily subsidized by your government, and flooding the Canadian market with cheap US dairy products would cripple our Canadian dairy farmers,our government was just levelling the field but yours says that’s not right.
I was never against checking out people trying to get in, but they are still human.
So treat them like humans. All I am saying.
Personally I can’t figure out why anyone would want to flee to the US it’s becoming more and more like 1940’s Nazi Germany, rather than the land of the free.

The framing of the immigration debate around some imaginary flooding of this country with killers and rapists is stupid. Latin America is the place OUR rapists and killers want to reach for safety.

@SQUEEKY2 That was a statement from back in 2015, before he even won the Republican nomination. He also walked that back and change the statement. So why is it you don’t quote the change? It is more recent. Or here’s an interesting concept…Read The EO! It never was a Muslim ban. It never banned Muslims in any way, shape, or form…except in the liberal media. That is where you get your talking points. This is what I was talking about doing the research. The liberal media keeps calling it a Muslim ban as a way to discredit President Trump. Do your homework and you won’t look like such a sheep.
So people with valid Visas, that have entered the country legally, are afraid of getting deported because….why? The liberal media said they would? When has President Trump Ever said he wanted to deport legal immigrants? So they are running scared for no reason at all. Not my problem. You are welcome to them.
Invoking tariffs has nothing to do with NAFTA. NAFTA is a treaty…an agreement…that requires congressional approval to withdraw from. However, the POTUS has pretty broad leeway in using tariffs. He sees that most of our steel and aluminum is coming from overseas. That puts us in a bad position as a country. He is trying to kick start the steel and aluminum industry in this country as well. Again….why is helping our country so wrong when that is exactly what you want for your country?
Okay…immigrants are human. Treat them like that. Let them into Canada until you can figure it out. That way they will be taken care of, right? Besides, in sheer size, you have the biggest country in the world. You should be able to take millions of immigrants. And that would benefit you because as the left is so fond of telling me, they are a boom for our economy. Especially the illegal ones. Imagine how well off your country could be will millions and millions of illegals in it. What? You don’t like that idea? That’s very Nazi of you.

@seawulf575 I said I don’t like calling immigrants criminals. To me crossing into a country is NOT the same as breaking into my house. I don’t know how many times I need to say it.

Did Rosa Parks break the law? The black boys who sat at the lunch counter? Were they criminals?

I think being a nation of laws is very important, but your black and white interpretation lacks empathy, and supports turning a blind eye to the weakest among us. The law is supposed to protect them most.

I got one that should make any right winger happy, you guys should just set up Machine gun towers every couple of hundred yards, and just gun down anyone trying to get across,that will teach them eh?
Word would soon get out don’t even try it.

There are some who would support such an idea…

@seawulf575 . Just to clarify. I’m a former LEO, now. Left in May. There’s a lot of hypocrisy in our nation’s laws. That’s one reason I left. I was just paying the bills. I was not a guy there to support our laws.

@JLeslie Yes, Rosa Parks was a criminal based on the laws of the time. Do I agree with the laws of that time? Nope…not at all. Would I have supported a change in those laws? Yep. But as I have stated again and again…there are ways to change the laws. In the case of immigration, we have laws and need to enforce those laws. Without laws, we have chaos. To allow people to break the laws just because they want to is lunacy. The lackadaisical attitude this nation has had towards enforcing its immigration laws for the past 50 years or so is what has caused so much of the problems we are dealing with today. But at some point you have to say “Stop”! Our lack of enforcing our laws has created problems not just for our country, but for many others as well. It has created a whole pile of new criminal activities to spring up that targets the people trying to illegally enter this country. Mexico has altered their interpretation of their immigration laws. If you try to illegally immigrate to Mexico and are caught, it is an automatic 2 year sentence in their jail and are deported. If you return illegally and are caught, it is an automatic 10 year sentence. However, they have put in a loophole that allows illegal immigrants that are “just passing through” to go on their merry way. But they also tip off the drug cartels to the immigrants who are then targeted for human trafficking and other illegal activities. So by having our lax border security and our catch-and-release programs and our sanctuary cities and all the other bogus things we have done that undermine our immigration laws, we have created an extremely hazardous situation for those people coming here illegally. How is that more caring?

^You’re not wrong, that the laws could be changed (in some cases.) Will that happen, probably not.

The only polarizing change I see possible, is Roe v Wade. At least some conservatives would get something for their decades of being used. I wonder if they aren’t aware of what they exchanged for this?

You are blatantly ignorant of many things, in regards to immigrants. You make proclamations, that sound exactly like regurgitated conservative propaganda…