Whatever happened to the use of Ms in place of Miss or Mrs?

It’s still used. I am Ms and forms let you choose it. It’s just not universally used and never was; some women liked to be identified as Miss or Mrs.

Like @janbb says, it’s still there. “Miss” seems to be being phased out.

I can’t remember the last time I addressed anyone on paper by Miss or Mrs or Ms. or even Mr. I just use their names. In emails, it’s addressed Colleen Harris, or Dr. Colleen Harris, perhaps… Once my father was emailing with a Dr. Pat and then met Dr. Pat and it was a woman and he laughed so hard, because he kept picturing Dr. Pat as a man in their 3 months of correspondence. Your married status isn’t an earned title like the The Right Honourable… or Madam Secretary, so I think it’s been dropped for the most part this day and age… or at least by me, unless someone specifically introduces themselves as ‘Mr. Smith’ or ‘Mrs. Smith’ themselves, I never assume to use it. I think I would only ever call a small girl ‘Miss’ but anyone older is a Ms, sort of by default, if I’m referring to them in conversation, perhaps. In France, it used to be rude to call a woman of marrying age Mademoiselle, because it inferred that she was old enough, but wasn’t worthy of marriage. I’m old enough to get away with calling young women ‘lass’ and they don’t get upset, but I wouldn’t call them ‘girlie’ or ‘missy’ because that sounds like I’m admonishing them and demeaning them, like saying they’re immature. So, very young girls could be miss or lass, and older girls/women are Ms. Then, when I get to know them, perhaps lass or their first name, when I remember it. Beginning of the year it’s ‘The lass in the 3rd row with the red jumper’... ;)

People don’t care. Over the years, things have become so informal that we call people “Jeanne” instead of any of the terms used above. If you go to a doctor’s office, they call you ion as “John Johnson” or maybe just “Johnson” – but not Mr. (or Mrs. or whatever) Johnson.

I use Ms. whenever I formally address women.

A bigger concern is “why identify gender with an honorific?” I don’t use “Mr” all that often either.

I still use it but as @ScienceChick pointed out, I think that in general honorifics are falling by the wayside. Except for Dr., that seems to be hanging on.

I still use it.

Actually, @elbanditoroso, people do still care. Very often professional men (doctors, lawyers, mostly) will use my first name but address the men as “Mister Surname”. It’s annoying and unprofessional, and starts off a client relationship on an uneven footing.

It’s still used. I use it, always, unless I know the person would, for some reason, prefer otherwise.

Hell, I have gotten to the age where I call all the doctors “Doc”. Course, I’m older than most of ‘em anyway

@canidmajor In group dynamics, it is shown that some people refer to peers by their first names but insist on being called ‘Mr’ or ‘Dr’. It is the type of power play that is equivalent between children and adults and has no place in organisations where peers are meeting. Sometimes, board members are referred to as Mr or Ms or Mrs by folks working for the organisation, but not among peers working together. When we do workshops and peer reviews, we always shake hands and use our first names. If we are in an advisory position, it might be different. Sometimes, letting the undergrad be aware of the power dynamic is important. I’m not their pal. But if I’m working with other faulty, regardless of how long they’ve served, we’re a team. That’s important. As are our administration assistants. I would NEVER pull that crap on an admin member or the grown men and women who clean the building.

On business letters and emails I use Mr. and Ms. I remember only one time in the past ten years that someone wrote back, “I prefer Mrs.”

Outside of business correspondence it’s extremely rare that I use anything except First Name Last Name.

@ScienceChick I had a friend who worked at a major US university as the head of the department that took grant proposals from all the professors and other professionals, reviewed them for punctuation, grammar, overall correctness and completeness, re-wrote them into legible and understandable proposals where necessary (which was most of them from what I understand) and submitted them to the appropriate agencies.

As the department head, he interacted with the majority of their clientele at one time or another either by phone or in person and he said that 97 out of a 100 were decent folk and he was on a first name basis with each but you always had that asshole who insisted on being called Dr. Whatever, usually in a very superior manner.

The initial conversations usually went like this:

Bob: “Phil, this is Bob Smith from the grant department, I need to get some further details before I can submit your grant”.

Phil: “That is Doctor Jones, Bob”

Bob: “That is Mr. Smith, Dr. Jones and I still need to get your paperwork corrected before I can submit your grant”.

Eventually, most came around but he did have those few who, even after years of working together, would insist on being referred to as Doctor.

@rojo I know the type. It makes me cringe and usually is accompanied by other issues.

Something that bothers me is kids calling adults by their first names….

I believe that’s mostly a regional thing, @Dutchess_III. When we lived in Seattle, then Colorado, just about all the adults we knew socially preferred that the kids use their given names. Teachers, doctors, other professionals, no, but casually the first names were preferred.
When we moved back to the North East, the adults preferred a more formal address. It was confusing for the kids, to say the least.

Well, Kansas. I still refer to our neighbors as “Mrs. Hamblin,” and “Mrs. Nimrod,” if I ever have reason to speak of them.

It is still used. I only use it when I don’t know the marital status of my subject. I always use it when I know the woman is divorced, even though Mrs. is appropriate for a formerly married woman along with her own name (not her former husband’s).

Mrs. = missis, mistress, missus, wife
Miss = unmarried woman, usually
Ms. = “miz” a independent woman, possibly formerly married

Ms. = “miz” a independent woman, possibly formerly married

Ms. has nothing to do with marital status. Married, never married, divorced – Ms. applies to all.

That’s the point of it. “Mr.” is used for both single and married men. Ms. is the equivalent.

And if someone prefers Miss or Mrs. for themselves, use that.

I see Ms. much more often than Miss or Mrs.

In fact, I almost never see Mrs. I think the practically only time I see it is on formal invitations, and even then sometimes they just use first name and the last name now. Once in a very very blue moon I see something addressed to me as Mrs. It doesn’t bother me if they know I’m married. It’s when it’s assumed that it’s a problem, or if someone who shouldn’t be asking marital status asks.

The only time I hear Miss is when someone is trying to get my attention, or when a southerner calls me Miss JL. Which still sounds odd to me, but I’m more used to it now.

@kritiper What does “independent woman” mean?

I use Ms. I teach about 300 K12 students, so I answer to Miss, Ms, or Mrs. without correction. At a certain age they correct each other, so it works out. I do correct adults unless the situation makes it really awkward.

I don’t think it necessary that a name reveal marital status. Women can be valued or devalued based on it, both personally and professionally. It is a woman’s right to choose what suits them.

@JLeslie I assume it means “not needing a man.”

Wasn’t there an old saying that a woman without a man was like a fish without a bicycle?

Maybe the bicycle died. And the fish doesn’t have to be young.

All this time and I thought that “Ms” is the short form of “Miss” and “Mrs” is the short form of “Mistress”. To my knowledge in English, other than marital status the usage of “Ms” and “Mrs” also define a woman’s age. We refer to the younger females with “Ms” and middle-aged females with “Mrs”, regardless of their marital status.

@Unofficial_Member That’ not true in our culture.

@rojo The saying was “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.”

@kritiper So, not needing a man whether married or not? I never would put it this way. Is that what Mr. means? Not needing a woman? Women can be married and use Ms., that’s the whole point. Plus, “needing a man” sounds so, I don’t know. Married women can still be independent and not “need” a man. Maybe we just like the guy, and decide to build a life together as partners in the journey.

@Unofficial_Member In America it is not short for Miss, it is to have an equivalent to Mr. when women go on job interviews the employer is not allowed to ask if she is married. In America we have done our best to remove any cues that a woman is married. It doesn’t say it on our driver’s license (some countries it does) we have Ms. as a formal way to address someone so her marital status is a non-issues. It is simply the equivalent to Mr., but for a woman.

I was going to say the same thing. Does the phrase “Independent man,” mean they don’t need a woman?
Gosh. I can’t say whether the issue of whether I’m a Ms., Mrs., or Miss has come up in the last 30 years. Sometimes I see the question on various forms and I just skip right past it because I think it’s a bullshit question.

@JLeslie No, what I meant was, for example, a widowed woman not needing another (new) husband.

So…for you “Ms.” means “used to be married?”
Do you ask yourself why we even want to tag women with their marital status when we don’t do that to men?

No! A formerly married woman who used to be married and whose husband may have died (or she’s divorced) but doesn’t need another man in her life, a woman who can take care of herself.
It’s similar to Mr. for men, a term that can be applied to any man, married, single, divorced, whatever…
My grandmother used the term, and she said it like “My name isn’t Mrs. or miss! It’s MIZ!”

Why do we even have to label a woman who can “take care of herself”? Why don’t we have a label for a man who can’t take care of himself?

We do. We call that kind of man a bum.

That’s not what I mean @kritiper. That’s a slur, not an actual prefix to his name. Just like “slut” is a slur referring to women, but not an actual prefix to their name, like Ms, Mrs, or Miss.

Related issue

In the 50s, 60, and so on, a woman was only identified by her husband’s name.

So Susan Barton was never known as Mrs. Susan Barton – she was always referred to as Mrs. Frederick Barton. The woman had no identity outside of her husband.

@Dutchess_III I knew what you meant. There isn’t a prefix like that and, if there was one, I sure wouldn’t want it affixed to MY name!

Oh, I remember @elbanditoroso. Women couldn’t get credit in their own name. They were a non-entity.

@kritiper The point about Ms. is it isn’t related to marriage at all.

A formerly married woman can use Miss if she wants, she’s single. A widowed woman can use Mrs. her first name and last name. Mrs. his first and last name implies the husband is still alive. In the past using her first and last name with Mrs, could imply widowed, but now people use Mrs. and her first and last name even when the husband is still alive.

Ms. is equal to Mr., it has zero to do with marital status past or present. It also has nothing to do with financial independence or an independent mindset.

Back in the day when Ms. was beginning to be used more, during the time of women gaining more equality, maybe men perceived it as women who were trying prove something, and who wanted to make a statement that they didn’t need a man. That wasn’t really the point though. The women weren’t saying that with Ms., the men might have perceived it that way though. Women were just looking for a benign word like Mr.

@JLeslie So, to each his or her own, right? One might relate it to marriage, or not, and another might take it to mean something else, be that person young or old, married or not. Whatever blows one’s skirt up…

I’m still waiting for the Ms. America pageant.

That’s another thing..“Miss” can indicate virginity!!

Can we all agree that it is best to address a woman as Ms. until she expresses a preference?

I agree!

According to Merriam-Webster’s, the term “Ms.” is used when “the marital status of a woman is unknown or irrelevant.”

irrelevant being the key word here. Just as whether a man is single or married is relevant

Exactly. Irrelevant. Nothing to read into when a woman uses Ms. I thought that was true when a man uses it, but I guess in some cases with men they have a whole back story and assumptions about the woman regarding the use of Ms.

Learn something new every day.

Always irrelevant, except at those times when it is also relevant to know a man’s marital status.

^^ such as among strangers at a bar?

Well, if married peoples are at bars without their spouses, I think that’s a problem. But that’s just me.

I think people can go out with friends without their spouses. But that’s just me, not thinking other people should be controlled like that.

I’m at bars without my husband sometimes. I don’t think twice about it.

I’m out dancing all the time without my husband, but it’s not usually a bar, it’s a dance at a recreation center or out to see a band in a town square.

Well, I agree ladies, but it depends on what kind of bar and what the motivation is for going. I’ve been out with the girls a few times for drinks, but we met at restaurants that also had a bar, like Montana Mikes Steak House.
I had a girlfriend who got married right out of high school. Well, one Saturday night we went to a bar. It was just a bar. A meat market. She let herself get picked up by some guy and I was so, so angry. Out in the parking lot I let them both have with with both barrels, over the fact that she was married and they should both be ashamed of themselves.
I was also thinking about men out on business trips, going to a bar all by themselves, with only one misson in mind.