Is racism valid?

Is racism, a defensible position?

I guess I’m asking, is there really a “superior race,” or ones who are inherently inferior, as our conservative jellies would opine?

appropriate response to racists

“Guns, Germs, and Steel” is an interesting book on the topic of why some cultures advanced so far and became dominant and why others were stuck in the stone age. On the surface, it may seem that certain races just are superior (why else would Europeans take over the world and indigenous Australians still be hunter gatherers?), but the book provides answers that have more to do with geography, native flora and fauna, and other environmental factors than anything inherently different in the minds of the people.

Any time I see true racist arguments (i.e. black people are poorer because they’re genetically inferior) I find other, non-racist explanations for these phenomena. I’ve investigated racist explanations (there’s little I won’t look into, no matter how distasteful I find it) and I’ve found them unconvincing. The scientific evidence just does not suggest that people of difference races are that different apart from physical appearance.

They deserve to be called out.

if racism is valid, so is misogyny, so is believing men are better drivers, so is believing men are better with money, so is believing women are ditzy and irrational…..

I suppose it is, if kept solely and entirely to oneself, with no effect on others. I think it only natural. How could it be avoided entirely?

Racism does indeed exist in this country and in the world. If you want to call out racists, that is your business. However, you might want to make sure they are racists first. Example: Not all Trump followers are racists. People that don’t agree with you aren’t necessarily racists. People that want to enforce immigration law aren’t racists. I guess the real issue is: How do you define racism?

Gee I don’t know maybe thinking all Mexicans are murders and rapers.
Like thinking ALL muslims should be denied access to the U.S.
Like thinking people from countries like Haiti and Venezuela are horrible people from shit hole countries.
Like believing anything FOX news, says or reports.
Thats just for starters.

^Lol. Beat me to it.

@seawulf575 Yes, racism does exist. That does not make it OK. It’s a long, slow process, spanning generations, to offset it. It’s barely been one generation since Blacks received the actual right to freaking vote. (I still can’t believe I was alive when all of that embarrassment and shame went down…)

Wait!
“...as our conservative jellies would opine?”

What?!? Don’t paint ME with that brush! I am a conservative white woman. I have a daughter in Japan who will most likely marry a Japanese. A few years ago, one of my other daughters was all but engaged to a very dark man of African descent.. If I were racist, I would have already ticked off half of my family.

I do not think there is such a thing as a superior race. I think that’s completely idiotic. And I don’t appreciate your comment @MrGrimm888. It is inflammatory and judgmental. It sounds like you’re trying to start a flame war.

Again with the freakin “ALL” bs.
Provide any link please where the leader of our country ever said all in the ways you have tossed around so easily.

Racism, however wrong, however painful, is never going away.
What people say or do might be controlled, but what is in someone’s heart cannot. It can be changed, but not by force, nor even education.

The thing about racism is, it has existed since before man knuckles left the ground.

Racism is about personal likes and dislikes. For some, that goes mostly on basis of individuals, but it is a majority of people who judge others in bulk form.
It is part of our DNA. Selection for purposes of mating, trading, forming communities.
Don’t look only within the humans. Mammals of all makes and models, reptiles, insects. I doubt any living creature is exempt, except maybe single cells.
Tolerance is what people need to aspire to. Learning to accept differences, even when those differences feel fundamentally repugnant.

“Learning to accept differences, even when those differences feel fundamentally repugnant.”

Racism is wrong. What you said is one of the most asinine and uneducated things I’ve read in a long time. Racism is not to be tolerated. When people are educated they can change. It happens all the time. No person should ever accept racism. Period.

Racism isn’t the right word to target, on regards to being “tossed around too much.”

“Tolerance.”

This is a common mental slip, that exposes bigotry, or ignorance. (Please don’t take “ignorance, ” as an insult.)

Tolerance. This word has heavy implications. It assumes that 1. There is something wrong, to tolerate.
2. That the person “tolerating” the other, is “right.”

Coexistence, is the important word, in respect to societal harmony.

Accept it or not, it is there, and don’t think for one moment that racism is exclusive to white people. As I said, it is global.
There are those who can rise above their racism to be effectively cohabiting, but there are all sorts of, “Marry a nice Italian girl, son”, and, “You are Chinese, and your ancestors are Chinese, and your grandchildren will be Chinese” and, “Do we really want that kind in this neighborhood?”

Denial will not bring change.
Anger will not bring change.
Moral indignation will not bring change.

And, if you think that by speaking the truth here I am condoning racism, you are real mistaken.
Mr. Grimm, you can point your boney finger all you want to, but the only heart you know the contents of is your own, so just knock off all that outrage you spout.

Racism is a fact.
Validity is in definition. If by existence alone something has validity, then it must be valid.
If by valid does one mean useful, then perhaps it may sometimes be valid.
Diversity is a good thing, but with diversity comes bigotry, because in all things, we make choices. If choice were not a valid and valuable trait, then we just as well mate like mice, take whatever is handy and go at it. No need to elect a leader, choice doesn’t matter.
Huh! Choice is everything. Choice proves we still think, and emote.
Sometimes choices hurt, but life hurts. Love hurts. The truth hurts. Why should personal choices be any different?
The thing about it is, not being fooled about the word tolerance. Just because it rhymes with dominance does not mean the two have anything in common. Tolerance is a two way street.
It is about recognizing that there are differences, and even if those differences are offensive to one, does not mean those differences are wrong, or even offensive to many.
Tolerance is not for superiority, but for harmony.
What is the point of shopping at a big and tall store, if you are neither big, nor tall? Is small a bad thing? No, but shop somewhere else.

Look, when bigotry stands in the way of people living without fear, then something should be done, but nobody can force everybody to like them. Individual choices are not the same as national, or global condemnation.

Down through the ages, humanity has sought better living conditions, for themselves, and for future generations.
A lot has been accomplished. All is not well, yet.
But, anyone who wants their opinions, beliefs, and preferences to matter, must be willing to accept that others have differing opinions, beliefs, and preferences.
What suits me is not acceptable to some others. I can tolerate that fact. But, I expect others to be tolerant of the very same knowledge. And that is how tolerance works. I disagree with you, but we shouldn’t hate each other over it.

@Dutchess_III As I stated, racism does exist. And nowhere did I state it was okay. But todays world has taken to throwing around the race card for things that aren’t racist. It really started big time while Obama was in office. If someone dared to say they disagreed with one of his policies, the first thing that happened was people started calling him a racist. Because we all know that the only reason you could disagree with a policy is because of the skin color of the POTUS. And it continues today. Look at the comment from @SQUEEKY2. She actually believes that somewhere, someone believes ALL Muslims should be denied access to this country. That is totally incorrect AND…Muslims aren’t a race. But she is categorizing them into that so that she can play the race card. She has now equated watching Fox News as being racist. I just can’t get there from here. She continues to throw the race card for things that have absolutely nothing to do with race. Yet I don’t see a single liberal on these pages clocking her on it. You all apparently believe she is right. So my comment about defining what racism is holds true. Apparently racism has nothing to do with race but has everything to do with whether or not you believe in the liberal kool-aid.

Not all Trump supporters are racists, but I would wager that 99.9% of all racists are Trump supporters. The number of hate crimes has risen considerably since he was elected. Link

An important distinction must be made. It is one thing to say, for example, that blacks earn less than whites. This is a simple matter of fact. It is racism to say that the difference is due to genetic differences between blacks and whites. In point of face, scientists do not recognize racial distinctions

Don’t look only within the humans. Mammals of all makes and models, reptiles, insects.

What the af? Hahahahaha… Race is a cultural construct. Other animals have no concept of race.

What a little education can give us.

People who need a short cut to thinking judge entire groups of people. You can dislike people individually all you want, but when you assume that all members of a group are the same, that just makes you look ignorant.

@Stache ”....even when those differences feel fundamentally repugnant.” What does that mean?

Patty. I will continue to point out comments I consider racist. If someone is supporting the Trump administration, yes, I think that gives me ample window into that person’s heart, or at least what they are willing to be complicit to. Trump’s agenda isn’t hurting people in secret. And his policies are public, and in most cases declared publicly. There are no excuses for people supporting the administration without knowing that they are contributing to hurting people.

The difference is, conservative jellies have been hiding behind things like border control, law enforcement, and national security. Which I always knew was a poor excuse for the real reasons they support the administration’s agenda. Lately, several jellies have just been honest. And it has exposed the racism, fear, intolerance, and white Christian pride, of Trumpers, that I always knew was there. Although they have the courage to admit their feelings, they still lack the courage to be accountable for having what they refer to as a difference in opinion, which is actually more accurately that their “opinions” in this case are of the type of people no longer welcome in America.

So. Now that we have confirmed, through their own words, that racism is at play, to varying degrees, in the minds of Trumpers, I wanted to know if my anger is misplaced. Is there some way to say “yeah, I’m racist, but _____.” Is there a way to justify their position?

I don’t think it’s ok. I don’t think these types of people belong in a modern, democratic, and diverse nation. Such people are now empowered by the Trump administration, and are helping the war on everyone not white, and Christian. Well… Fuck that.
Steve Bannon has been trying to unite Europeans against the immigrants there. Fuck that.

For every bigot empowered by this administration, two decent people are empowered to push back. Look around the world. Trump is met with protesters, everywhere he goes. These unite the right rallies, are being met with armies of real Americans, and being stomped out. Bigots will be pushed, pulled, or dragged into a future of coexistence. But they won’t be allowed to live peacefully, while they try to push this war.

I don’t remember who, but someone inferred that I/others think only white people can be racist. That is NOT the case.

@seawulf575 . I think you are far too wise, to think nobody criticized Obama because he was black. There were surely black people who voted for him, just because he was black. I’m not going to deny the role race played there. Surely there were whites, who voted against him, just because he was black.

Race was undeniably an issue for many Obama critics. If policy/performance were the only things people took issue with Obama over, then they would still be mad about the debt, military spending, infrastructure etc. But nope. Trumpers sing this POTUS praises. So stop trying to act like race wasn’t a big deal…

Not all conservatives support Trump. A surprising number of them don’t. And they don’t because of all the reasons you listed @MrGrimm888. Ergo, not every conservative is racist, etc.

Correct Dutch. I’m sure I’ve made that mistake multiple times in my ravings. I’m really talking about “Trumpers.”

My apologies to our non-Trumper-conservative jellies…

@seawulf575 Thank you for your last post ,now I know you are not worth my time and energy to further argue with.
You can take your holy er than thou white conservative attitude and go spit on a muslim,and kick a mexican.

^No no no. You kick the Muslims, and spit on the Mexicans… Amateur…

@SQUEEKY2…. was @seawulf575 referring to you as a “she”? Or was she talking about a woman she didn’t name in the comment…

@Dutchess_III “even when those differences feel fundamentally repugnant.” What does that mean?”

Ask @Patty_Melt. I was quoting her.

Don’t care @Dutchess_III this white conservative ,everything in the world is the liberals fault isn’t worth the time or energy any more, surprised he even has time for us between clan meetings and white forever gatherings.

This morons leader, is turning the world against the US, and he loves it and playing right into Putin’s hands.

OK @Patty_Melt. Back to you. “even when those differences feel fundamentally repugnant.”. What does that mean? For example….?

Is racism valid? Yes, of course. It exists, it hurts people, it need eradicated.

Some of you say things that are highly offensive and I truly don’t understand your hatred or assumptions about other jellies, that are often wrong.

I spend the weekend with many minorities and ethnicities, and let me tell ya, many didn’t mind Trump near as you do.

I guess I don’t know what “valid” means anymore. I took the question to be asking whether racism had some truth to it, and I don’t believe it does, from my investigation, thus I consider it invalid. But apparently some people see “valid” as synonymous with “existent” which seems to cheapen the word and render it useless.

Definitions of “valid”:

1. Well grounded or justifiable, pertinent.

Racism is not that.

2. Acceptable, proper or correct.

Not that either.

Therefore I have no problem calling racism and racist beliefs invalid. Some of you seem to be acting like that’s worse than being a racist.

Not exactly sure what you meant by ”.. let me tell ya, many didn’t mind Trump near as you do.” But if you’re saying many minorities like Trump, well, so do many women. I can’t for the life of me, fathom how any woman could support such a scum bag.

“Fat. Pig. Dog. Slob. Disgusting animal. These are just some of the names that Donald Trump has called women.

@Dutchess_III For example, one Bosnian woman who has been here for 22 years said the freedoms we have the US outweigh any President who is elected into office and we American take freedom for granted. All I asked was ‘what do you think of Trump?’ I got a 30 minute lecture about other parts of the world and what freedom actually means. She had not one bad word to say about Trump, not one.

And tbh, I think some of what I see and hear is pretty disgusting, too, even some things on this thread. I’m not defending Trump, as that is not my job, nor do I agree with everything he says or does, like any other President we’ve had.

@KNOWITALL I’ve had similar conversations with foreigners, as have my children who have friends in many countries.

I agree that we take our freedoms for granted! That doesn’t excuse what Trump is doing to this country.

@snowberry It was so odd, how I kept up the liberal ‘accounts’ of the current political climate and they got upset at me for it!

Frankly what you see on fluther and the news is not true for the entire US.

OMG. You’re getting sucked in to his “fake news” machine @KNOWITALL.

Yep. As I have said over and over again, I take my issues straight from Trump, and his supporters’ mouths.

@Dutchess_III I’m really not in the mood to argue today. It’s real, it’s not just Trump who believes it exists.

Michael Radutzky, a producer of CBS 60 Minutes, said his show considers fake news to be “stories that are provably false, have enormous traction [popular appeal] in the culture, and are consumed by millions of people”.

Claire Wardle of First Draft News identifies seven types of fake news:[19]

satire or parody (“no intention to cause harm but has potential to fool”)
false connection (“when headlines, visuals or captions don’t support the content”)
misleading content (“misleading use of information to frame an issue or an individual”)
false context (“when genuine content is shared with false contextual information”)
imposter content (“when genuine sources are impersonated” with false, made-up sources)
manipulated content (“when genuine information or imagery is manipulated to deceive”, as with a “doctored” photo)
fabricated content (“new content is 100% false, designed to deceive and do harm”)

Here’s a good article explaining the psychology.
https://www.bps.org.uk/news-and-policy/liberals-and-conservatives-cry-%E2%80%9Cfake-news%E2%80%9D-different-reasons

I’ve got a better idea. Listen to Trump’s speeches, at his rallies, and watch the crowd.

@MrGrimm888 Who are you even talking to? Please use your @ so we know.

Some of your posts lately to other people are pretty offensively rude. And frankly, the fact no liberal or anyone I’ve seen, has publicly said this to you, makes me sad and even further detracts from the party your beliefs represent (that you’ve defined here on fluther) appeal to me personally.

This is not your playground to insult people or call names. I think you should be ashamed of the words you use to strangers on the internet. It’s politics and you admitted you don’t even vote, so you’re just part of the problem imo.

If I were a mod, you’d be banned and most of your insulting comments deleted as personal attacks.

Racism that leads to lynchings, demonizing illegal immigrants, slavery, annihilation of an entire race is pure evil. It’s valid. Valid evil.

@KNOWITALL . Well. That’s your opinion. You’re welcome to shop it to the mods.

The only insults I see, are coming from the Trumpers here. They have insulted EVERY race, accept whites. Is that less offensive, than me calling them out? I don’t think so…

Why is my calling someone out for attacking the majority of the people in the world, worse than their words?

Notice that I have called out some jellies, on their comments, but I have NEVER called for them to be silenced. You have severely disappointed me @KNOWITALL . Call for my censorship all you want. I have done nothing but point to jelly’s own words. I have not slandered anyone. I have simply called them to defend their beliefs.

So. In a thread asking for validation of such comments, you request to silence me? WOW! Very Trumpish of you…

I am going to post this here and on another post,it explains FAKE NEWS very simply that anyone including Trump could and can understand it..
https://youtu.be/_87ehzRV0AI

You got to understand @MrGrimm888 , Trumpsters don’t like to be called on to defend their beliefs in the guy,and when done so they cry insult,if they can’t spin it and point to an email, or how well the economy is doing.
Trump is turning the world against the US and that is exactly what Putin’s Russia wants.
But first he is turning his own countries citizens against each other, but look at how well the economy is doing.

Two people who don’t vote in US elections, setting us straight on Trump, and equating that name with racism, as if they were interchangeable.
And for authority, Jimmy Kimmel, and a prompted third grader. There’s the ideal go to.

Lol. So Jimmy Kimmel, a TV show host, isn’t as valid as Trump, a TV show host? Lol…..

@MrGrimm888 If you feel so strongly, maybe you should vote, as I’ve told you before.

I don’t want to silence you at all, where did I say that? #fakenews
See, that’s part of the problem, making things up and then being offended.

You’ve disappointed me, too. And we’ll both survive to live another day.

Good grief @KNOWITALL one of your posts said he was truly offensive,and if it was up to you ,you would have him banned and his posts removed,isn’t that wanting to silence him?
Actually it’s 7 above this one if you want to review.

And @Patty_Melt I am concerned about what happens in the states because it has a way of affecting us north of the border.
Like the orange hair god you so admire calling Canada a threat to national security just so he could slap unjust tariffs on us.
You know that latest from this wonderful orange hair god,He doesn’t want Canada to even participate in the NAFTA talks, really?
Something that really affects us he doesn’t even want us there,yeah he is all about fair,BARF!

@SQUEEKY2 I want him to vote or stfu with all the ugly comments to people.

@KNOWITALL I will agree with you on ,HE SHOULD VOTE.
But he is still a citizen and tax payer of your country so he definitely has a say.

@MrGrimm888 remember my previous comment to you? You succeeded! Do you feel better now?

@snowberry I apologize if I offended you, but I was trying to prove a point in a way they MAY understand. The lack of empathy is appalling.

@snowberry . I’m not sure if my apologies reached you. I was wrongly targeting people who didn’t support Trump. I apologize… I’m not sure what I “succeeded”; at…

What’s disgusting is the people on this site who try to justify racism and homophobia.

@KNOWITALL . I don’t make assumptions. Conservative jellies have found the courage to out themselves. And they have pulled the others out into the light.

Attack me all you like. You simply cement my opinions of conservatives. You’ve all done a great job, making me look like I have been right all along. Thanks!

If it makes you feel better, I have no children that I am aware of.
I don’t beat my dog, but I’m not in/from Florida, as if that has any relevance, as you suggest.

I suppose these personal attacks, and attempts to censor me, mean that I have indeed struck a chord with you. Your denial/deflection, is now on full display. Rather than defend the position of yourself, and your racist bedfellows, you have tried to silence me. VERY impressive….

@SQUEEKY2 . This is just classic deflection. I don’t vote, because I refuse to legitimize one of two pathetic candidates each four years. @KNOWITALL has apparently run out of relevant material to debate about, so she will attack my honesty, and shared values…

Yawn…...

@KNOWITALL “The point is, I’m not like that”

Uh, your post says otherwise. You can’t attack someone like you just did then say “but I’m not like that.”

You guys are just winning Trump another term. Great job, keep it up.

@Stache Flag it then, thats what the mods are for, supposedly.

@MrGrimm Be right then. If you can dish it, you should be man enough to take it.

Showing your true colors now, eh?

Guess so. Never hid anything. Sure is sad to see other people devolving into flamers.

Says the person flaming.

I guess dude, I dont know you so think whatever you want. Smh

What you said about @MrGrimm888 was very personal, has nothing to do with the topic of discussion and is fucked up so yeah, I’ll think what I want.

@Stache Words do mean something, so you got the point.

And you don’t get mine. What a shame.

@Stache Conservatives never will because they are to busy deflecting EVERYTHING, even things they really don’t need to.

And @KNOWITALL as for winning your orange hair god another term,lets see what the mid terms bring?
Then we will know if he has a snow flakes chance at another term,then again his base clings to his lies so you might be right.

@SQUEEKY2 His fervent followers are just as delusional as he is. There’s no way in hell he’ll win a second term. He won due to the third party vote. That’s not going to happen again. The people who reluctantly voted for him or voted for a third party are disgusted. They aren’t going to make the same mistake. A few people on Fluther being pissed at the left aren’t going to win the next election @KNOWITALL.

Lol

Keep watching Fox @Patty_Melt . That’ll get you far in life. Your loud conservative friends on the internet are in the minority. Trump lost by 3 million votes. The fools who voted for Trump because they hated Clinton don’t have a Clinton to hate this time. Trump has made a disgrace of the presidency. Only fools believe he hasn’t.

They ain’t voting for Trump this next time either. I can’t wait to see the Trumptards cry.

There you go, thinking you know stuff. I don’t watch FOX at all since Bones is over.

Ooh. You got me.

All this back and forth sniping. Fun to watch. But I asked a serious question about what your definition of racism was. The only answer I got involved things that had nothing to do with race and it was seconded by another. But I believe THAT is the cause of all this strife…the fact there hasn’t been a defined idea of what racism really is. Sure, there’s lots of hatred being spewed, but by the definitions I got, that could be racism too.

@seawulf575: “Sure, there’s lots of hatred being spewed, but by the definitions I got, that could be racism too.”

Of course. Up is down. Left is right. The real racists are the anti-racists, just like anti-fascists are the real fascists., right?

@KNOWITALL . Where have I NOT taken it? I don’t try playing people, by PM’ing, and I have NEVER asked for a jelly to be removed. You’re quite an awful person, when people don’t agree with you. Sad. And you claim to be a person who holds some public office. I recommend that you take a long walk, or a long gaze in the mirror. I would never had guessed you were capable of such hate, and intolerance. Talk to your God, or whomever, and rethink your position…

@seawulf575 . At this point, a Trumper is a racist. There’s your definition. If you really need clarification, after all he’s said/done, you are beyond help.

Yes. It is entertaining, to watch jellyfish fight. Tentacles, and viscous fluid all around!

Get your popcorn ready folks. I’m not backing down from calling out the racism, or from anyone too pathetic to own their bigotry. Nobody’s getting hurt here. Let’s talk about why jellies feel this way, and maybe we can help.one another.

Why can’t white, Christian people live in harmony with others? Yes. That’s the real question… I’ll start a new thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

just for anybody confused about the subject.
And Trump has shown he is indeed a racist more than once, like saying Mexicans are murders and rapers, but then he adds I am sure there are some honest good ones as well.and to his loyal sheep that is all it took to prove he isn’t a racist .
^^ To this outsider the guy is total racist^^ IMO

And again when he said he wanted to deny immigrants from shit hole countries,<That doesn’t scream racist to you his loyal followers??
Secret if they weren’t shit hole countries they wouldn’t want to try for a better life in your wonderful USA right?
And lets not even start what he thinks of Muslims

@MrGrimm888

Who wrote this?
^No no no. You kick the Muslims, and spit on the Mexicans… Amateur…

I don’t want to live in harmony with people who write things like that and joke about abusing minorities. YOU look in the mirror, you wrote them.

It was in Jest and you know it! ^^^
The things I said about Mexicans, Muslims, and denying people from shit hole countries, came straight from your orange hair gods lips, feel free to spin it or call me offensive but I didn’t say those things the great Trump did.
And you don’t want to live in harmony with anyone that even jokes about that kind of thing,but it’s fine for ole Trump to say things like that all the time?

@SQUEEKY2 Was it really? or should I assume you two may be closet racists, since it’s so hilarious to write things like that? I certainly never would, nor I have I seen @seawulf or anyone else giggle about things like that.

Let’s get real, you guys have consistently said things on par with Trump, joking or not, being very ugly to other people here, and there are about five of us who claim to lean conservative, and less than that who claim to in any way, idolize Trump.

What have we said that is on par?
PLEASE point them out, or is that a classic deflection?
I have seen you and @seawulf575 get very rude to others that don’t tow your conservative values.
Shit he even claimed liberals and Nazi’s are basically the same.
And spouted a Hitler propaganda saying to try and prove his point.
But YOU don’t see that do you?
And heaven forbid you wouldn’t call him on it,
Like saying Mr Grimm should be banned ,then say you never said anything like that,classic.

@SQUEEKY2 I already answered that once, read your own posts, I don’t have time to quote you, nor the desire to read that drivel again.

Okay, yes, I have got rude, but I didn’t joke around about abusing minorities. Grimm did.

Am I supposed to defend @seawulf575 now? He’s a salty old dog, he can handle himself, but I never heard him say a racist thing, that I recall. If I did, I’d have no issue with telling him, trust me.

As far as Grimm, I said if I were a MOD, which I am NOT, I would ban him- he’s breaking the site rules by flaming and personal attacks.

I’m not sorry @KNOWITALL . I’m just calling jellies out, and getting NO response.

May I ask? What statements, other than your own, have I criticized? Seriously, I have not remotely concocted any material on you guys. I’m just using your own words!

How is bringing up what you say, grounds for dismissal, or relevant?

I am NOT flame baiting.
I am NOT making anything up.
I am NOT lying, or faking anything.

Why should I be ostracized?

Because you, lack the courage to stand by your beliefs?

@MrGrimm888

Well you got a response from me didn’t you? What response are you wanting? You want someone to admit they’re a racist, is that what you’re hoping for? What an odd thing to hope for.

What beliefs are those? The ones you make up about people, or the ones I say I believe?

I believe you are flame-baiting, making things up and flat out lying, yes I do.

You show me one person here who YOU say is 100% racist, let’s just test this theory.

Maybe you would get a response if there were true racists here. Far as I know, there are not.

And another thing, I stand by my beliefs 1000%.

I have jellies on my fb, they know my real name, see my real pics, they see my posts, they see my friends list, nothing to hide here and no reason to. Not sure many of you can say you’re as open with your RL as I am, and that’s intentional on my part. Heck Dutchess came and met me here at work, can’t get much more transparent that that.

@SQUEEKY2 your hatred is showing. Get your facts, dear. Trump never said all Mexicans were rapists and murderers. What he said was that Mexico wasn’t sending their best across teh border, they were sending people with problems. Some were rapists and murderers, some brought drugs and some were probably good people. But speaking with border patrol, they are telling him what they are seeing. That isn’t racism. That is a statement of how reality works. But the left, as you have aptly shown, aren’t interested in actual facts, only the twisted ones that allow you to fan your hatred.

@notnotnotnot given the answer to my question of what are we calling racism, can I take it any other way? You tell me. How is watching Fox news racist? How is wanting to vet immigrants from specific countries racist when there is nothing tying the countries together except their support for terrorism and hatred of our nation? Even if you say it is all Muslims, that isn’t racism…Islam is not a race. So nothing in that answer dealt with race…at all. By that definition, anything that could be deemed at hatred is racism. And there is plenty of hatred being spewed from the left on these pages. So are they all racists….by the given definition? I would have to assume so.

@seawulf575 – You already gave yourself up. Why are you still here?

@notnot Squeeky brought him in by repeating her version of his words. I clarified with him. He obviously felt he neede to speak for himself.

Sad seeing a vet treated in a condescending manner, typical fluther left.

Plus he has more lurve than you if you didnt notice.

@notnotnotnot…ahhhh….no real response. Got it. So you agree with the definition present by @SQUEEKY2 and seconded by @MrGrimm888 ? Go ahead…say you do. Especially since I have proven how hate filled and inaccurate it is. Go ahead. OR….deny it…say they were wrong all the way down the line. This should be good. Oh wait!!! You are a liberal…never mind…you will try some lame dodge to avoid actually having to support your opinions.

^I’m unsure why you feel your opinions, presented as facts, are more important than others’...

@KNOWITALL . What response do I want? I don’t have a desired response, per say. I’m asking for people to defend their beliefs. Example. If they think the white race, is the best, why? If minorities are inferior, why?
If they are afraid of a country where they are suddenly a minority, why? I’m asking for defense of their fear, and ignorance. No need for some to admit they are racist. But what are the REAL factual reasons for their opinions? I believe that if they are truly honest, they will see a damaged part of themselves. A part that can only be fixed, through introspection, and conversation with people outside of their comfort zone…

@seawulf575 The definition I gave was from wikipedia,you don’t agree with it?
What a surprise.
Paint your orange hair god any way you want, and your right I do hate the guy sorry, for one declaring Canada a threat to your(USA) National security just so he could hit us with unjust tariffs.
He is indeed a racist and worse he is turning the world against the us playing right into Putin’s hands, and you’re to blind with your love for the guy to see it.
But as long as your economy is humming(for now) and theres still an email lurking all is well in your rep/con world.

^We wouldn’t let @seawulf575 slide with a Wikipedia resource. Let’s give him some slack here.

You don’t need Wikipedia, to make a judgement on Trump anyways.

I have a feeling that Trumpers like him being a dick. That’s definitely a role he excels at…

Here is another thing Trump is guilty of ,he is profiting by being in office, he goes to his resorts on his off days (which far out number Obamas,that got all the rep/con tits in a wringer) and his entourage has to pay to stay there.
He tells foreign dignitaries to stay at his Hotels, while they are in your country.
Isn’t that against your constitution?
He is using his power of President for profit(his own profit)thought that was a big no,no.

Sadly, many presidents profit from their office. I’d love to pile on here, but that’s America.

While they were in office??

@SQUEEKY2 I would love to see where Wikipedia defined racism as trying to keep all Muslims from this country, referring to Haiti and Venezuela as shithole nations, and anything Fox news airs or reports. Please…feel free…show me that citation. Because that was your response to the initial question of what definition of racism are we using. The Wikepedia link is not a definition, it is more of a justification and a history lesson. Let’s look at the definition:

From Merriam-Webster:
Definition of racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b : a political or social system founded on racism
3 : racial prejudice or discrimination
— racist play \ˈrā-sist also -shist\ noun or adjective

From Oxford:
Definition of racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b : a political or social system founded on racism
3 : racial prejudice or discrimination
— racist play \ˈrā-sist also -shist\ noun or adjective

Racist and Racism are not what you are describing. I would suggest trying prejudiced or possibly bigotry as better options. But that is exactly my point. The left throws around labels like Racist with no consideration of its accuracy. It is hurled as a epithet to justify any further opinions you might have on a person or to try shutting down any differing opinion from your own. The original question was “Is Racism Valid”. My answer is that it does indeed exist. But I was looking for what definition was being used since the left almost never uses it correctly. Your initial response was fairly typical of a liberal response…anything I don’t like is racist.

@MrGrimm Got it. So you need to fabricate a ‘racist’ here so you can show them the way and help them. Maybe you should try an actual racist website or chat room for your project. It sounds interesting.

I don’t have a need to fabricate a “racist.”

They know who they are, and they can deny all they wish. That’s their right. It doesn’t change their transparency though… So it makes them look racist, and hypocritical… Not a good look.

@MrGrimm888 Do you think that perhaps you were triggered by current political events and the climate, because of your childhood with your father? I mean that had to affect you in some way, but you never mentioned that until yesterday, so it would be interesting to compare notes.

Do you think that perhaps you felt so powerless as a child and his being a ‘super racist’ (your words) that you are feeling empowered as an adult and want to ‘fix’ it in others?

I mean, I wish you could explore that and see if perhaps your seeming obsession with race or racism could be an unaddressed trauma. Maybe if you get that figured out, not only will you feel better, but possibly could help your life get better in many ways. I’m serious.

(Disclaimer: I would have PM’d, but you wanted things in open forum)

^Oh, I have definitely been agitated, by current events. As most Americans are, one way or another.

My father is relevant in this thread, sure. I wasn’t “traumatized,” by his racism. I would maybe say extremely disappointed, and embarrassed by it.
He grew up very poor, in downtown Charleston. Circa 1940’s/50’s. He was/is a red headed, youngest of three siblings. He got picked on a lot, and he was never far from a fight. There were lots of black people who lived around him, and there was constant tension.
He went to Vietnam in the mid 60’s, and I think he gained a lot of perspective on black people there. When I was growing up with him, he was more racially insensitive, than like actively racist. But he told me stories, about when he was a teenager, and he and his friends would throw things at black people on the streets, and be generally unpleasant to them.
As I mentioned, my constant harping on him, and his watching Obama speak, “fixed” him. I have not heard him say the N word, in many years.
I love my father, but he is far less cerebral, than any jelly here. I guess I can’t help but think, if he could see his error, others can to.

I don’t like bullies. Never have. I was bullied a lot, as a child, and it was miserable. I suppose you could say that I feel like the Trumpers, are bullying our brown Americans, and I guess I feel obligated to stop it…

I hope this public moment of introspection, can help you better understand my “obsession,” with race. I personally see my interest in this area, as reactive. I am no soldier for civil rights, and I don’t have any false feelings of being a maverick, or crusader for good. But I’m sick, and tired of what I feel is an unraveling of race relations, due to a minority of American people…

@MrGrimm888 Thank you for sharing. I respect the fact that you are willing to be open, while asking others to be open as well.

Being raised here in the Midwest, I have been around a wide variety of people from day one. I was scared of the loud backwoods type racists you’d find around here. I never understood it, and after my mom explained it all, I found a real intolerance for racism and bigotry of any kind. That’s probably why I get SO offended when you generalize about white christians.

As many people here know, in my early 20’s, I had a boyfriend that was gorgeous and a lot of fun. When we started hanging out with his friends, I realized many were racists. Well long story short, when I wouldn’t join in, I was courted, cajoled, then continually threatened slyly. I also went to school with whole families of racists, even little ones were taught. You’re right, many are bullies and not very cerebral.

My point in all this is that until you know OUR stories and we know yours, I feel like we should try to be more understanding. There is almost nothing I wouldn’t do to protect another human being of any color, so when you keep hollering ‘racist’, I get really emotionally agitated. I know what real racism is, and it’s really bad. All I’m saying, is that I hope, having survived it myself, and you surviving it too, that you will be emotionally responsible here with that ugly label.

To answer the question NO!!! Racism is not valid.
Will it stop nope, because low minded people continue to think minorities get all the advantages and they get left behind.
I am not sure these people could or can be educated to see their way of thinking is greatly flawed, and along comes the great orange hair god who tells them what they want to hear,and they love him for it.

We’ve been over this @KNOWITALL . Supporting this administration, is supporting racism, bigotry, and greed. Think of the over 2,000 kids who were traumatized, by being separated from their families. Dozens of the parents were deported, but signed their children over, without fully understanding what they were signing. Those children, and parents may never see each other again…Those crying children. Those worried parents.
I know that right groups claim that the suffering was exaggerated. Let’s assume that only one child was hurt by this. Just one. How do you feel about your role in that?

Yes. Many policies can hurt people. But this was deliberate. And Trump only stopped because of the pushback.

I’m afraid that I cannot lend a Trump supporter any credibility in their claims of wanting to help people, when they are clearly, and deliberately hurting people…

@MrGrimm888 Okay point taken.

Counterpoint. How do you feel about Molly Tibbetts and the role of an illegal immigrant in her death? Does she not count just as much?
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/21/us/mollie-tibbetts-missing-iowa-student/index.html

I will tell you that the pushback Trump got was NOT just from the left.

To me, that was a bipartisan issue and still is, we need to fix the laws and immigration process, and we need the votes from both major parties to accomplish it.

I’m not a fan of tit, for tat arguments.
Did you hear the one about the illegal immigrant, that helped a drowning person, or helped put out a fire?

Every human being, has the potential to do something awful… It’s a pretty weak argument, to point to a missing persons case, that hasn’t been resolved yet…

Let me ask you. Do you think if you were drowning, and an illegal immigrant noticed, that they would potentially try to help you? You know, just one human being, helping another in nerd?

Even as a career pessimist, I see far more potential for good, to come from these people looking to start a new life. I know Trump has everyone thinking that they’re an invasion of the worst people, and they are all just wanting to hop on welfare, when they aren’t busy raping and pillaging.
No. They are here to find work, and build a life for their families.

Ah…. We are in agreement, in regards to change being needed for immigration. We probably differ on multiple facets of what type of changes, buy hey, let’s just focus on our first agreement in days…

@MrGrimm888 Actually I’m not sure we differ that much at this point.

And you didn’t answer my question, which isn’t very fair when you blame me for the death of an immigrant child, but don’t accept blame when the immigrant does something bad. And the guy admitted it and led police to her body and was on camera, so appears a slam dunk. That guy may or may not speak English, so what chance does he have in the legal system…probably none, that’s why we need this fixed, it’s not fair or right to either of the parties involved.

Of course I think anyone has the capacity for good, sorry to tell you. We are all God’s children, born with the potential for good and bad. Unlike you, I acknowledge that we each make our choices and some of them cause harm to others, or end up criminal, doesn’t matter what race or color your skin is.

You see color, but I wasn’t raised that way-I see a human being, all are worthy to me, including Molly Tibbetts and including the immigrant children. Many of my younger friends don’t understand what’s happening, this race war, because they also weren’t raised to see color and discriminate, so it’s confusing to them and seems really crazy, on both sides.

Yes, we agree that change is needed. I’ll take it.

And from me to you, although I disagree on your tactics and much of what you say and believe, I apologize for losing my temper at you the other day. I read your post saying you liked the honestly of a pissed off jelly, so I guess you got what you wanted, but for me, I thought my temper was getting better than that at this point in my life. Still some work to do I guess.

Now knowing what you do about me, can you imagine what I would do to a racist that mouthed off to one of my friends? It wouldn’t be pretty, but it would be my first offense lol

@KNOWITALL . I appreciate, and accept your apology. I thought everybody did pretty well. I expected to piss some people off. I expected personal attacks. I’m a big boy, so I’m ok. Your one post actually hurt my feelings, but I am sure I hurt other jellies feelings with my questions and posts, so I should deal with the consequences of my own actions.

I have tried to explain that I also want vetting of immigrants. Bit it needs to be faster, or have more funding, or whatever it takes to process these people. There is a humanitarian crisis going on south of our borders. These people need help. These people have feelings, desires, families, and many are running for their lives. Whether or not they arrived here legally, I find most immigrants to be the most patriotic people I ever meet
They are proud of, and bring with them their own culture. But they love their new country, and make up large swaths of our many branches of military.

I have to opine, do you think the immigrant that killed this girl, would have been stopped by a vetting process? I’m not sure.
I find this case to be right wing propaganda. I am not saying that it didn’t happen. But I know right wing media focuses on them, to further the agenda. As I mentioned, hear any positive news about illegal immigrants, on your media? If not, there’s a reason.

The world is such a strange place, to me. The more I learn, the more confusing it is…

He was not in the country illegally

^Oh?.....

Read the whole article.
His lawyer showed no proof of his claim, and there is statement his ID was illegally obtained.

I don’t have WiFi, in my new place. If I wanted to view a link, it would take 100,000 years… Sometimes I read links in places where I can get free wifi, but tonight, I’m at my wifi free spot…

I can’t cut and paste. This phone is different than my other, and I am still learning the functions, and where they are.

I’ll try to view it tomorrow. I will be at a place with wifi. I’ll try to hold my opinion, until then…

@MrGrimm Irish temper, Cherokee vicious. Sorry. If you have Cherokee blood you know.

^We’re good. Until next time I piss you off;)

<weeping>
I just love seeing jellies get along.

^We’ll see how long I can behave myself…. Fingers crossed.

Once @KNOWITALL mentioned triggered I scrolled to the bottom to respond. I did not read the rest.

Fucking triggered by racism? The person speaking out against atrocities is not the bad guy.

^I think we’ve worked through this, as best we could. I think I’ve said everything I needed to say. Everything else is just arguing…

@Stache Psychological triggers exist, duh…maybe you SHOULD read the actual content before popping off. Smh