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LadyMarissa's avatar

It increases my desire to vote in the midterms!!!

Yellowdog's avatar

Censorship involves removing or suppressing material deemed to be unfit. And that is what is being opposed—censorship,

Even yesterday, a Google search could not produce any information on the U.S. / Mexican Trade deal. Ironic, isn’t it—that you have to turn to FOX News to get this information, a major turning point in history, involving NAFTA.

Of course, this is because it is positive for Donald Trump’s leadership. You could find dozens of incidental negative stories—including one three days old that said Trump’s deal wouldn’t pass. But none affirming that it did and what it means.

Google may be a private enterprise, but this kind of censorship has to stop.

ragingloli's avatar

Google search is full of results for that.
As usual, your side produces nothing but lies.
And you use these lies to justify the encroaching tyranny sought after by your dear leader.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I thought Google personalized their engine, per user. If 10 different people Google something, they should get 10 different results. It depends on your browser history.
We tested it here, on Fluther. We all got different results for searching for the same thing.

raum's avatar

I think @MrGrimm888 is right. Search engine results usually varies with user.

I got plenty of search results about Trump and NAFTA.

Maybe Trump is too busy googling all the bad things people are saying about him and his personalized search algorithm has picked that up?

tinyfaery's avatar

OMG. I just googled “NAFTA Trump” and got a lot of hits. It even came up on the prediction. There are articles by major news sources. @Yellowdog Do you know how to use Google?

I am so bemused by this nonsense. Do Trumpers actually want an autocrat in office?

ucme's avatar

Doesn’t affect me in any way & so my take is this…I don’t care.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Yellowdog Maybe you’re doing it wrong. Here is what that exact search got me . Some of them go back 2 days.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Dutch. Wasn’t it you that started the thread on Google search differences? Could you provide a link?

Dutchess_III's avatar

I don’t think it was me.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Dammit….

MrGrimm888's avatar

^AHAH! I thought so…

MrGrimm888's avatar

So. Our experiment makes Trump’s statements irrelevant. Nice….

Dutchess_III's avatar

Damn! How long ago was that?? Glad to know a tiger has not eaten your memory. Good catch. And an interesting question I asked. That might have something to do with he got what he was expecting to get, maybe, based on his history.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Correct. His sweeping generalization, and conspiracy theories, are born of either ignorance, or straight lies. A common Trump tactic…

seawulf575's avatar

Censorship is the bad thing. But that is what is being done by many of the search engines and social media outlets now. When you search something, if it is a conservative something, it is very difficult to find. Ditto that with the shadow banning of conservatives on Twitter and Facebook. So why is it that when Trump addresses this, the left goes crazy trying to say HE wants to censor things? He is specifically trying to do away with the censorship.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Give us an example of a “conservative thing” that you think is “very difficult” to find.

tinyfaery's avatar

Those “conservative somethings” must be rarely searched and/or obscure. I can never find obscure shit either. That’s how algorithms work. It’s not censorship. Not even close.

Just more nonsense.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I tried looking up bullshit sandwiches. It just took me to footage of Trump rallies.

When I look up sheep. Just more Trump rallies.

Google is definitely broken.~

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III I tried repeating the test that Trump based his “96%” comment on. Go to Google, go to the News feeds, and search on TRUMP. I had one item on page 1 of the search results from Fox News. I had one item from Business Insider on page 3. I had one item from the Wall Street Journal on page 4. The rest were from NBC, CNN, NYT, WaPo, etc. There were quite a few from Huffington Post and Vox. There are roughly 10 search results per page. So out of 40 search results, only 3 are from anything that might be considered a conservative outlet. Do you believe that Fox News only had one item about “Trump” in their News? Do you believe the WSJ did? So if you are looking for a conservative view point using Google, you are really barking up the wrong tree. If you want the liberal slant, it’s a great place to go.

LadyMarissa's avatar

I don’t care for Google’s search results on any subject so I seldom use them!!! I do find Google good for most of the “How To” subjects I want to learn about. I also don’t care for Trump whines & I don’t listen to him either. When he doesn’t like something, it’s fake news…when it’s in his favor, it’s the gospel. Fox stays in his favor because they kiss ass so well!!! You can’t become King as long as your royal subjects know the TRUTH; so, GET RID OF THE TRUTH!!! Before he goes out of office, we won’t have access to the internet at all!!!

ScienceChick's avatar

All I know is that when I Google ‘Idiot’ I get a page full of pictures of ‘you know who’.... and I laugh and laugh. But that’s all done because of pictures of him being tagged ‘idiot’. That isn’t google. It isn’t censorship. It’s the action of millions of people online doing the same thing. One might say, they are exercising their… what-now? Oh, their freedom of speech. That’s what it’s called. Nobody is censoring the internet. If you don’t get the search results you want, you’ve not trained your browser properly or you are using the wrong words. You have to use the best words. What was it that said he had the best words? Oh… that’s right.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Conservatives, and especially Trumpers, are a small minority in the world. Plus. They get their information from Trump, who just gets his from FOX news. It makes sense that there would be few sources online. FOX tells Trump. Trump Tweets it, or regurgitates it at a rally. Trumpers in turn regurgitate it back onto their social media. It’s like how the rain works.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Why on earth would you just want news from a “conservative outlet” @seawulf575? I certainly would not want to get my news from something that would be considered a “liberal outlet.” I want my news from an outlet that tells the truth, even if it’s not what I want to hear, like the BBC or NPR.

flutherother's avatar

People constantly claim news sources and Internet search results are biased. Usually the left complain of right wing bias and the right complain of left wing bias. The President of the United States usually stays above such squabbling but if he feels it is an issue he could surely set up an enquiry to look at the facts instead of inflicting his own bias upon us.

kruger_d's avatar

90% of his tweets are just distraction. It’s slight-of-hand.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 how do you justify your claim that Conservatives are a small minority in the world? What is your source? I’ve heard the exact opposite. In fact I have citations:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/180452/liberals-record-trail-conservatives.aspx

https://www.ibtimes.com/more-americans-identify-liberals-fewer-moderates-1535332

I also found this one that addresses a little of the fake news debate:

https://www.inquisitr.com/4947261/americans-struggle-to-identify-fact-vs-opinion-only-25-percent-correctly-separate-the-two-survey/

And that sort of explains your aversion to Fox. You do understand that Fox news is generally the top rated news outlet? That means your entire statement is illogical. Only conservatives and Trumpers that you claim are a minority, watch Fox. Yet Fox wins in the ratings. How is that even possible? Time to re-evaluate your premises.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III I use the term “conservative outlet” as a way to differentiate news outlets. I have seen various charts that separate news outlets into right leaning and left leaning. BTW, NPR is left leaning….in a big way. But that doesn’t mean I don’t listen to NPR. I can sum up the idea of why someone would want to go to a news outlet that leans in a political direction opposite from what that person normally leans…to get a differing viewpoint. To be more informed. I view myself as a conservative. But I don’t watch Fox News (which by the way doesn’t fit into the far-right description on those previously mentioned charts) unless it happens to be on in a public space. But if I see an article or story coming out that interests me, I will review a variety of news outlets to get a fuller picture of the different viewpoints. Sometimes you come across a story or an outlet that actually just reports the news without the commentary. I like those the best. Sadly, most of those are foreign based outlets such as BBC as you mentioned or Al-Jazeera or even RT sometimes. Facts are what I look for…not opinions. Though to be honest, opinions tell a story too, just not the one about the news story being presented. It gives insight into how the opposite end of the spectrum thinks.

ScienceChick's avatar

I would watch Fox News ironically. Because it’s funny and it would make me laugh.

flutherother's avatar

I watch Fox New occasionally. It fascinates me how bad it is and it is a bit worrying that so many Americans believe it is a straightforward news source that provides a clear view of the world. The presenters are so worked up and emotional. Why, I don’t know, but the truth usually speaks in a quieter voice.

ScienceChick's avatar

Again, the confusion with ‘It’s the most popular, so it must be the best’. That is a dangerous fallacy. A very dangerous fallacy.

ragingloli's avatar

Besides, all the rightwingers flock to that fake news channel, by virtue of it being the only big one, whereas all the non-right wingers are dispersed among the plethora of real news channels.

seawulf575's avatar

I find it funny that I identified a perfect example of how the tech companies (Google in this case) manipulates things and has blatant bias against conservatives. And not one of you has seen anything wrong with that. Apparently mind control and suppression are okay with all of you. It was for Hitler too, by the way.

ScienceChick's avatar

You identified your opinion. Nothing else.

ragingloli's avatar

Just one faux news result on the first google search results page is not manipulation, because there are dozens of other news sites out there.
Just by statistics alone you can expect other news sites to be more prevalent in the results.
What you and your Dear Leader Orange Hitler want to do, is force google to unduly overrepresent faux news in the search results.
THAT would be manipulation.

Another example.
When you search for 9/11, it takes until page 5, to see any sites run by 9/11 truthers.
That is because they are a fringe position, not because of “bias” against truthers.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@seawulf575 It is ironic that the most trustworthy and truthful news outsets are always accused of being “left leaning,” when all they do is report the news.
Instead of recognizing that there is a serious problem with the right values the conservatives deny any problem exists and dismiss the news outlets as being biased.

As Alec Baldwin said, as Donald Trump, “The media makes me look bad by reporting everything I do and everything I say.”

seawulf575's avatar

@ScienceChick I handed you a test…a scientific investigation. It was a simple test and doesn’t tell the whole story, but it does tell some facts. And it was a test you can repeat as easily as I did. I saw the story and didn’t believe it on the surface…until I recreated it without any effort. It isn’t my opinion…it is a fact. That you choose to ignore it speaks volumes about you and your attitudes and not facts. It tells me that you, as an educator of fertile minds, don’t want to actually look at facts nor investigate anything that goes against your biased opinions. I weep for all the young people you infect with your attitude.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli you are purposely ignoring the facts. Fox is one of the biggest news agencies out there. The fact that there are more hits for Vox or Huffington Post speaks to the entire story. Google is manipulating data and you are trying to defend it. When one of the biggest news agencies in the world is identified only once in 40 entries is not an accident…it is not statistically possible that they only had one article dealing with “Trump”. And I’m not suggesting that things should go the other way….all Fox or some other conservative outlet and no liberal outlets. I’m suggesting that in an honest world, you would see relative amounts of articles. If you go to Fox news website right now you get at least 7 articles that mention Trump, most in the headlines. Why would one of the top news outlets get only 2.5 percent of the coverage on Google? AND, the one article that showed up was a related article to another article from another outlet. Meanwhile there were multiple hits for VOX and Huffington Post…outlets that are uber liberal and not nearly as popular or prolific as Fox. Sorry Hoss…Google has displayed express manipulation of their searches and their bias against Conservatives and you are still trying to defend them.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III I could give you site after site that explain the identification and reasoning behind why some sites are conservative and other are liberal, but honestly, you sound like you are grasping at straws. I could take your statement and turn it around 180 degrees and it would say the same thing about liberals. Maybe liberals don’t recognize their is a serious problem with the left values and they are in denial that a problem exists. It sounds just the same, doesn’t it? And it actually is. If you notice, I have made a statement that Google is manipulating data to push liberal websites and suppress conservatives. That is manipulation of the population. That is the same stuff Hitler’s propaganda wing did. Yet you are all supporting it. I have asked the simple question for you all to cogitate on and you refuse. Instead you want to try pushing the liberal agenda and attack my statement. Tell you what…why don’t you do exactly what I have done? Do a search for liberal and conservative news outlets. I suggest going to a more benign outlet than Google to do the search. Try duck-duck-go. They seem to be much more evenly balanced and they don’t track your stuff for you. Once you identify what a liberal news outlet and a conservative news outlet is, then go to Google and type in “TRUMP” into the search bar. Hit enter. See how many conservative websites are represented. Like it or not, it is a fact…Google is brainwashing you.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Again, I just don’t understand why you, or anyone, would consciously go looking for a site that has any kind of political bias. I want the news reported. if I want bias, I’ll discuss it with my friends.

This has a chart in the article that I think is pretty spot on. However, I was disappointed at where CNN was in the ranks. It was one of my favorites, but I quit going to them for my news.

ScienceChick's avatar

I teach my students the difference between a fact and an opinion. Something Wulfpup doesn’t seem to understand.

ScienceChick's avatar

Also, don’t hand me anything. Its obvious that the only thing that’s been in your hand is your own dick. Keep it to yourself.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I’m not sure how you could compare The Huffington Post, with Fox, when it comes to ratings/viewership. Talk about apples, and oranges.

Conservatives a majority.

Perhaps you are talking about conservatives, of every type. I am referring to US rep/cons, Trumpers, and the white nationalists in Europe.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III I applaud you doing the research and finding a site showing bias. There are tons of them out there and all vary a little. I personally like https://mediabiasfactcheck.com as a source. It lists sites based on their bias and you can look to see if a site is left, right, left-center, right-center, etc, etc, etc. But the issue is not that I would purposely seek out a site that is left or right biased. But sometimes I find sites that I’m not sure about. Then it is nice to find out if it is left or right. I keep a questioning attitude going. And if I find an article on a site that I then find is right biased, I will see if I can find a corresponding site on the left and if possible, in the middle. In every debate, there are two sides and generally the truth is somewhere in between. My point is that when you go to Google, you get mostly (over 90%) liberal sites. Your searches are being forced to the left without your knowing. Eventually, you will get to the conservative sites…many pages of search results later. But that bias on the part of Google is attempting to manipulate users.

seawulf575's avatar

@Soubresaut I have seen that page before. But here’s the problem: Google is under heat right now for having a huge bias on their searches. Going to Google to ask if they have a bias is not going to get you there. There are too many vague areas in their decisions: Algorithms, for instance. By what is on that page, Google states: Google ranking systems sort through hundreds of billions of webpages in the Search index to give you useful and relevant results in a fraction of a second. but that leaves the question of what is their ranking system based on? Who determines what “useful and relevant” is? And it is exactly those things that result in their obvious bias.

seawulf575's avatar

@ScienceChick Your claim to be, by your handle, a science chick. Here’s a concept: have you ever heard of scientific method? It is the decision making tree you create to prove or disprove a statement. Trump made a statement that Google was biased. His info came from another site that set up a test. It is a simple test for a search engine…put in one specific word that would be very popular on all news outlets (in this case they used TRUMP), select the news feeds as the place to search, and hit return. Any fool can do it. Except, apparently, you. And when you run this test, the results are obvious…Google has a liberal bias.
What I find hilarious is you. You have accused me of not having facts and only stating opinion. I have backed my statements up, yet not surprisingly, you have not. So who is spewing the opinions? Who doesn’t deal with facts? How can you possibly teach your students to deal in facts and not opinion when you obviously don’t and possibly can’t? But I understand how fragile the liberal fantasy reality is…you really can’t have facts upsetting the delicate balance. I continue to feel sorry for your students.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 You continue to live up to my expectations, which are pretty low for you. Let’s review: I have shown citations that give the information that Conservatives are the majority, not the minority. You have shown nothing. But apparently your opinion is more accurate than facts that are shared by multiple outlets. Now you are attempting to walk back your statements, forgetting that we can all scroll up to see what you actually said. Conservatives, and especially Trumpers, are a small minority in the world. are your exact words. Now you are trying to change what you said. Typical…liberal makes outlandishly wrong statement, gets clocked with facts, tries to change the statement. But still won’t produce a single spec of evidence to support the now nebulous statement.
As for comparing Huffington Post and Fox, I didn’t compare them…Google did. They gave more credibility to HuffPo and Vox than they did to Fox. That really is the point of my statement: Google manipulates its users and skews their search results way to the left.

ScienceChick's avatar

@seawulf575 do you know what confirmation bias is? Because you just explained it, but you called it by the wrong name. You wouldn’t know science if it hit you in the arse.

seawulf575's avatar

@ScienceChick you are wrong again, not surprisingly. Unless you are trying to say I identified Confirmation Bias (not bias confirmation) in you. Again, I have explained the methodology of my research and you have done nothing to disprove it. But in true projectionist liberal fashion, you voice your opinion, claim that is what I am doing, and consider that proof. Not very scientific of you. And with performance like that, what are you REALLY teaching your students? How to be good little liberal sheep?

ScienceChick's avatar

Keep working on your methodology. I’ll look forward to reading any published paper you have. And again… opinions are not facts. I have facts. You seem to have lots of opinions. But keep trying. It amuses me. http://babyspittle.com/idiot.jpg

seawulf575's avatar

You have facts? When have you voiced a single fact? When have you actually cited anything to back up your opinions? You haven’t. You are a hypocrite, m’dear. I can only imagine that carries over to your classroom. Typical liberal….all bloviating and zero fact. Maybe you should review that citation I gave for @MrGrimm888 from Inquisitr…the one that talks about people not being able to differentiate between fact and opinion. so far you are batting 0.000. You have voiced opinion and backed it up with nothing. And can’t recognize when I actually post facts. And you call yourself an educator! Shame on you!

ScienceChick's avatar

@MrGrimm888 He’s so funny. I can see why you keep him around.

ScienceChick's avatar

I gave a ‘Great Answer’ to this: https://www.google.com/search/howsearchworks/

The day I have to to defend math and algorithms is the day the world has gone mad. Right now, I can only see one mad person and he fancies himself some sort of clever without any sort of reason.

seawulf575's avatar

You haven’t defended anything. You have spouted opinion. You haven’t backed it up with anything. And algorithms are not definitive things. They are dependent on the variables you use to solve whatever you are trying to solve. That is the whole problem. But I suspect you either don’t know that (likely) or are hoping I don’t (even more likely) or both. The fact that you gave a “Great Answer” to a citation I already poked holes in means nothing. It shows you fancy your opinion as fact. Sad from a person that is supposed to be teaching young people how to think. I suspect you don’t teach them how to thing, but rather what to think. Indoctrination, the old German way, eh?

ScienceChick's avatar

Yes, Wolfie boi, the whole world is out after you and your crying baby of a president.

seawulf575's avatar

Understood you fully support liberal bias, manipulation by the media and propaganda. Hitler would be proud.

ScienceChick's avatar

Make sure you have your food tasted. Your paranoia is taking over your reality.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I take Huffpost with a grain of salt, too @MrGrimm888. I have ever since I caught them in some sort of spurious news reporting. Don’t remember what it was though.

ScienceChick's avatar

Huff post just grabs reports from other sources. Everything needs to be double checked, or triple checked if it’s online.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yes it does. Hell, it needs to be checked no matter where it’s read, online or in real life.
Came across this in my local Wichita paper several years ago. (Yes, I see they got it from the LA Times. No need to mansplain that to me.)

Dutchess_III's avatar

Right? I was like, “Don’t newspapers have editors any more?” I mean it was a huge headline!

ScienceChick's avatar

But if you really want to know how ‘big data’ works, there are things you can read and podcasts to listen to. Here is an entertaining start from BBC4, a podcast called ‘The Infinite Monkey Cage’. Automated AI collects data. https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/b0b9wbf8

I’ll see if I can find some work by the professor of statistics in Cambridge. Prof David Spiegelhalter. He is quite interesting to listen to if you’re worried about what to worry about.

ScienceChick's avatar

It is also important to realise, that Trump isn’t the only person to be affected by this. The manipulation of data on the internet is systemic. This has happened to leaders in other countries. There are banks of people behind computers that are for hire that will make posts that will skew search results and will even, for a price, follow your social media account so it looks like you have more followers than you actually do. This should also show Trump and his supporters how easily the information can be manipulated by hackers from say,... Russia. He only gets upset when the manipulation on the internet makes him look bad but is really joyous when he can give a speech and spread the misinformation that makes his political opponents look bad. That’s what I find hilarious and ironic.

Dutchess_III's avatar

This made me laugh. :D

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . I didn’t walk anything back. I attempted to clarify. My quote, that you provided, is what I was attempting to clarify.

The Huffington Post, started and was for most of it’s existence, a magazine. It has never had the type of financial backing of FOX, and was never meant to compete with it as a 24 hr news channel. The only comparison, to me, is that they are both biased. So. You presented a false analogy…

Do really think Trumpers make up the majority of the world? I must be misunderstanding you.

In the election Trump couldn’t even win his home state, and lost by millions in general. Does that sound like a candidate with the support of the majority?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III…more good ones. This is one I always liked :

http://www.pineforestjewelry.com/articles/headline-news-bonus-rangers-get-whiff-of-colon

It is actually pronounced “cologne”.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Hilarious!

‘It is unbelievable that a journalist could put these words on paper, read them after writing them, and not understand the problem with the wording !!!” Yo dummy. Maybe he knew exactly what it was going to read like.

basstrom188's avatar

Is there anything positive to say about Trump?

seawulf575's avatar

@basstrom188 there is if you want to say it. You wouldn’t find most of the jellies here supporting you, but you can say it.

ucme's avatar

Positive about Trump?
He is comedy fucking gold & threads like this only embellish the hilarity further.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I got one. He has a beautiful, poised wife.

ragingloli's avatar

And his daughter is totally fuckable.
Hey, he said so himself.

Soubresaut's avatar

@seawulf575 If you read through that section of their website, you would have a better gist for how their search algorithms work. Significantly, they aren’t directly coding “this website better” or “this website worse.” They’re trying to come up with more general patterns to allow the computer to sort through the immense mass of data that is the internet, whatever someone’s query might be.

The part that is probably most relevant for our purposes is the “Ranking useful pages” topic under “Search Algorithms”: These algorithms analyze hundreds of different factors to try to surface the best information the web can offer, from the freshness of the content, to the number of times your search terms appear and whether the page has a good user experience. In order to assess trustworthiness and authority on its subject matter, we look for sites that many users seem to value for similar queries. If other prominent websites on the subject link to the page, that’s a good sign the information is high quality.

So the algorithms “look” for, among other things: how recently the page was published and how often the search term appears. We’ll get back to this shortly. They also explain a little about how they determine a site’s trustworthiness: do other Google users click on it? Do other websites link to it (this data would be known from the crawlers and indexing process)? These are easily-tracked data points for algorithms. Notice, too, how these are general patterns that allow the computer to sort through large amounts of information quickly no matter a user’s query.

As for the test that supposedly exposes a bias… typing a single word, like a name, into a search bar is a bad way to use a search engine for anything more complex than simply finding that person online. This is why the general search results of “Trump” always lead with Trump’s Twitter and Trump’s personal website, and why Wikipedia is always somewhere near the top if not at the top.

If you type a lone name into the News section of Google (or look specifically at the news articles in the general results)—well, remember that news, as an industry, writes about the negative far more than the positive—that’s the way it works—and expect that to be reflected in the resulting headlines. Type “Clinton” or “Hillary Clinton” into Google, and the results are quite different. Unsurprisingly.

I’m just saying, it’s not a surprising result of the test, especially for someone as active in politics as Trump currently is, thanks to the combination of his job and his lifelong flair for drawing attention to himself.

As for why a “liberal” website like Washington Post would show up on a Google search for Trump more than Fox—well, before we jump to “liberal conspiracy of deliberate anti-Trump bias,” let’s look at how the content of two opposing sites might be sorted by algorithms that use “number of times your search terms appear” and “freshness of the content” as two key factors.

I searched the keyword “Trump” internally on both Fox News’ website and Washington Post’s website (these were the first newspapers that came to mind, so I went with them). I sorted the results first by date to see what Trump-related articles were most recent (or “fresh”), and then by “relevance.”

Fox News “Trump” search (within Fox’s own site), sorted by date:
– Only 2/10 headlines with “Trump” in the title.
– Only 4 with “Trump” in the description (2 of those articles were the 2 with “Trump” in the headline, mentioned above), and that’s counting the phrase “CNN’s Trump-Russia meeting story.”
– 6/10 articles do not have “Trump” in the headline or in the description at all—they are about something else which Trump either only features briefly, or is adjacently related.

Washington Post “Trump” search (within Washington Post’s own site), sorted by date:
– 5/10 headlines with “Trump” in title.
– 9/10 had Trump in the description
– Only 1 that did not have Trump’s name in either location.

When I sorted by relevance on both sites, the name “Trump” was in the headline of every article. The first 4 from Fox News were opinion articles by Ivanka Trump and Lara Trump, with dates from July, June, and March of this year, and May from last year (so Trump in name, but not the Donald). The next most relevant is from the 3rd (today), and the dates march steadily backwards: the 3rd, then Aug 27, 23, 19, 19, 13.

That isn’t ancient history, but if we compare it to the Washington Post results, sorted by relevance… Of their first 10 most “relevant” results, 4 are from the 3rd; one from the 2nd; 4 from Aug 31, and 1 from Aug 29.

Either way we slice it—date or relevance—Washington Post wins by a clear margin.

None of this is conclusive, but it does suggest an alternative, simpler, reason why Fox News might not show up as often as you’d personally like when you search for “Trump”: they’re not publishing as many stories that will catch the “eye” of the mindless algorithms sorting for, among many other things, date of publication and recurrence of search terms. As far as those two factors, for this particular query, Washington Post beats Fox News, and that is enough to explain the results of the “Trump” Google test without resorting to conspiracy theories involving computer programmers wasting their time creating secret pro-Trump/anti-Trump or conservative/liberal rankings of websites.

Dutchess_III's avatar

And he is so smart he is the only one who knows the F35 stealth bomber is invisible to the naked eye.

seawulf575's avatar

@Soubresaut I might go with all that, except Google doesn’t just search on titles of articles. It searches for content as well. Also, I think you need to go back to try you test again. I just went to the Fox News website and searched on “Trump” and came up with pages upon pages with Trump in the title. Similarly I did the same thing at the WaPo pretty similar results. Again…pages upon pages with Trump in the title. So based on that, the two ought to have appeared equally in a Google search. They don’t. So I expanded the test. I tried the NYT.
Again, pages upon pages with “Trump” in the title. What I did find, though, was that the dates for Fox for the first 10 pages were all from about the last week. I noticed at the NYT that within the first 2 pages they were pulling in articles from July. So for articles that have “Trump” in the title, both had many, but for current data, Fox was far more prolific. Yet NYT appears more in a Google search. Expand it even further.
When you go to Google and search for Trump, you end up with sites like Huffington Post and Vox getting more results than Fox. Now those are definitely liberal sites, but are far less prolific than NYT. So I tried your test again there. I couldn’t use Huffington Post since they didn’t have a search button. But their web page was not filled with articles that had “Trump” in the title. I did search at Vox. They showed 1350 articles pertaining to “Trump”. But most of them did not have “Trump” in the title. So how do they get more air time on Google than Fox?
Any way you slice it, date or relevance, Fox was the clear winner over Vox and NYT. Yet both appear far more than Fox in a Google search for “Trump”. They only thing you way you can get more Vox or Huffington Post or even NYT results in a Google search, is if the Google search is biased. No other answer.
Here’s a clearer test: Go to Google, go to the News pages, search for Trump. Now go down and see how many times Fox is shown on the search. Look at the date for the article cited. Now go to the Fox page and see how many times Trump appears in the titles of articles from the date of the article cited in the Google search to present. Want to guess what you will find? A whole lot more articles on the Fox News page than on the Google search.
Sorry, m’dear, you have not convinced me. It really doesn’t matter what Google says they do, it really matters what they actually do. And they actually slant everything far to the left.

ScienceChick's avatar

I went to google and clicked on the News section and put in Trump. The return said ‘about 302,000,000’ (also, comparing returns on the search results from individual New sites is pointless. It just means one site writes more articles (good or bad) about the subject. Unless you like a buffet of bad food over a nice, chef-cooked meal, quantity of content is no indicator of positive or quality content.)

Maybe the content is based on World Wide results. Maybe the rest of the world knows that Fox isn’t a place to go to for news. Maybe that’s why you can’t get your Fox fix from Google. Because the rest of the world knows it’s bent. But you know exactly where to go to get your fix of bent Right Wing news and you won’t be told otherwise. I bet you didn’t get many BBC pages to come up, where I got several. I also got Reuters. If it was based on content, Reuters and BBC and perhaps Chinese papers should be the largest , but it isn’t based on the number of articles on the web. Not at all.

ScienceChick's avatar

I also know that my Google search results and any advertising I get is based on previous searches I have made. Woofiepup isn’t going to get adverts for Mooncups, and I won’t get ads for Remington’s latest machine gun. Everyone’s search results will be different depending on what they have ‘trained’ their search engine to return. It automatically helps you confirm your political or medical bias.

seawulf575's avatar

@ScienceChick as unscientific as ever. You miss the entire point of the evolution and tried making your bogus theory match the facts. You did sort of touch on another example of why Google is biased, but you failed to see it. BBC and Chinese papers should conceivably get more entries because they are bigger. Possibly, though in true liberal fashion you have nothing in the way of a fact to back it up. But let’s say you are right. So they are not being seen as they should. Why not? Why doesn’t Google cough up those results? You then try to make it all about ads and surfing preferences. But that isn’t true either. If it were, when I used Google to search for “Trump” I would get far more conservative websites than liberal sites and I would get next to nothing from Huffington Post nor Vox. Sorry, you are still showing your lack of scientific method. I can only imagine what actually ARE trying to teach your students. Hopefully it isn’t science. Nothing you have stated shows anything other than your inability to design a test and interpret results.

Dutchess_III's avatar

She’s not being unscientific! If you don’t have a clue how Google works I can understand why you would be confused. She is right. Everyone gets different results when they Google the same thing. It’s based on prior searches.

seawulf575's avatar

Again…if that were true, why don’t I get more conservative sites? My own searches do mix liberal and conservative sites, but I haven’t been to Huffington Post in years, yet I end up with at least 2 hits out of 40. I have never visited Vox, yet they, too, had 2 out of 40 hits.
Meanwhile, Fox, which I don’t go to often but have been to several times this year, only showed one. I never go to CNN yet it dominated the search results. No matter how you look at it, the arguments that it searches for the number of times it finds the key word in the title of the article, or my past search history, either way, it proves out false. The only thing that is consistent is that Google front loads its searches with liberal outlets. I’m sure if I dug far enough back I could get to conservative sites (maybe), but they are so buried that it becomes a useless effort. That is what Google is counting on. People don’t frequently go back more than 4 pages when doing searches. They usually click on the top 4 or 5 hits. I have found dozens and dozens of articles on Fox with the word “Trump” in the title, yet none really show up on Google. The results don’t fit any of the theories being put forth by those defending Google. And going to Google to ask their opinion of whether they are biased or not is ridiculous. If it came out they were biased, they would come under so much heat it would be damaging to their company in the extreme. So they will put out all sorts of things that might sound reasonable…right up until the point where you put them to the test. Then they all fall apart.

Dutchess_III's avatar

All you type in is the word Trump? Nothing else? What you’re going to get, then, is based on how many other people just typed in the word “Trump,” and then what ever they clicked on next. The more people that clicked into a particular news site, then that site comes up as #1 (most popular.)

I get the Washington Post, CNN, The Hill as my top 3 hits. Then I get some Twitter stuff. Then 3 CNN videos. Then some stuff about Woodwards book about Trump.

I can’t access the Washington Post, so I don’t them, and I don’t use CNN or The Hill because I don’t quite trust them, but I still get them in my feed because of the millions of people who DO click into them.

tinyfaery's avatar

Oy. @Dutchess_III Good on you for continuing to try and explain.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Are you saying I should…give up?! LOL! Probably. My attorney once told me I had this idea that if I could just explain it logically then everyone would see the light! I was really young then, and didn’t have much experience with crazy then.

tinyfaery's avatar

I used to think that too. I’ve discovered that it is not true.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Right? But lord, we do try.

Look, if you want hits on conservative sites just type in UFOs or Bigfoot or conspiracies and stuff. You’ll get lots of hits.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III you are either contradicting yourself or are proving my point, or are just being silly. Let me help.
You stated that everyone gets a different Google search result because it is based on prior searches. So that means the results I get are based on either (a) it is based on my prior searches or (b) prior searches done by everyone. If it is my prior searches, I should have more conservative hits than 3 out of 40. If it is based on searches done by everyone, now you are starting to get into circular logic. Basically what you are saying is that everyone gets different results when they search on a word because everyone searches for that word. Huh?
You could be proving my point. You did a search for Trump and got all liberal sites. Welcome to my side of the argument. Why only liberal sites? That makes no sense. But you said it yourself…your top three hits were all liberal outlets. As I have stated, Fox news is one of the biggest news outlets in the business and they have tons of articles about Trump. So why aren’t any of them out there? Are they smaller than The Hill? You admitted yourself that you don’t look at any of them. So why are they showing up in your feed? Because millions of people view them? That is where you get into silly. Okay…here is a nice graph:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/875811/most-popular-us-news-brands-ranked-by-audience/

By that data, your top 3 hits should have been, in order of website visits, WaPo, NYT and CNN. Fox should have been the 4th. So by your reasoning, seeing The Hill in the top 3 doesn’t make any sense. It didn’t make it into the top 10. As I mentioned previously, I got hits on Vox. That isn’t anywhere on the list either, yet it showed up more frequently than Fox and Business Insider combined.
So far, none of the reasons Google gave for how they decide to show search results is holding true. Yet I shouldn’t be surprised that the liberal jellies on here can’t acknowledge that. You keep trying to prove me wrong, but instead keep proving I am right. How does that happen? Oh yeah….facts.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^ @Sobresaut fave a detailed description of how the algorithms, and programs work.
It seemed logical, to me. Was it not, to you?

tinyfaery's avatar

Algorithms account for both personal searches and world wide searches, and so many other variables. Math doesn’t have circular logic, only ideas and concepts are subject to that test.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 yes, @Soubresaut gave an opinion of how algorithms are supposed to work. And on the surface it sounds reasonable. But the problem comes when you take theory to practice and then Google falls flat…again. And if you cared to do a few tests yourself, you would see that to be true. Go to Google, select the News feeds, search for Trump. You get almost all liberal sites. She tries saying it was because of date and relevance. Yet if you go to Fox and do the same search you get pages and pages of articles all with Trump in the title, often within the last day or so. But they don’t show up in the Google search. Meanwhile you go to Vox and do the same test and they have far less articles that focus on Trump. Yet they show up more. Why? She suggests it has to do with how much web traffic that site gets. I presented a chart that shows web traffic. Vox is nowhere on the list, yet Fox is #4. Meanwhile, on the Google search, Vox appears more often than Fox. Why? She suggests it might be because liberal sites write more negative press and that is why they get more hits than a conservative site when you search Trump and then she theorizes that if you did the same search for “Hillary” or “Clinton” you would get the same sort of results except 92% would be conservative sites. That idea says a couple things. First, it says she didn’t do the test with Hillary or Clinton because it doesn’t come out that way. An interesting thing happens when you do it for “Hillary”. You get actually a pretty decent mix of liberal and conservative websites. But you get hits from such well known outlets as _The Allentown Morning Call from an editorial they put out. And Fox still only shows up 2 out of 40 hits. If it was negative press and Fox supposedly hates Hillary, why wouldn’t they show up much more? Secondly, what she is saying is that Google preferentially presses negative press which is…well…manipulation. It says that number of times an article was accessed or that the word was used in a title has less to do with it than how negative the article is.
In the end, all the suggestions of how an algorithm is supposed to work and how Google says they run things doesn’t hold up to actual practice. It is all smoke and mirrors.

seawulf575's avatar

@tinyfaery Yep, algorithms have a lot of variables. But not all algorithms are the same. The user inputs which variables are desired to be used. And that is where bias comes in.

ScienceChick's avatar

@Seapuppy Marketing isn’t a crime. Popular ideas aren’t a crime. Google isn’t a library cabinet filled with index cards. You’re trying to make it all sound criminal because you’re sitting in a dirty diaper and crying that life isn’t fair because your mommy is making you eat your vegetables. Grow up.

ScienceChick's avatar

Also, it’s called the World Wide Web. Using US statistics to say the web isn’t fair is like cherry picking the data you want to include in your study. That’s not scientific. Also, ‘popular’ STILL does not mean best. Does not mean most accurate. Does not mean unbiased. Try reading information from reliable sources and forget what’s popular. https://www.toptenz.net/10-reliable-news-sources.php (from the article “Before we get into the full article, it is also important to point out that just because some news sources may be more reliable than others, does not mean we should ever read the news blindly without thinking it through. All news stories should be put through the process of critical thinking, and analyzed based on the context, and any possible biases – whether intentional or otherwise.”)

Dutchess_III's avatar

Kudos to you back @tinyfaery. AND @ScienceChick, for continuing to try to explain. He doesn’t’ get it.

I am dead serious @seawulf575. If you really WANT to find conservative sites, just type in bullshit like, “Bigfoot,” and “JFK conspiracy,” “Was 911 an inside job?” and nonsense like that. You’ll get hits on conservative site insisting that it’s all REAL!

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III and that is making my point even more. What you are saying is that you can only find conservative sites represented if you type in oddball stuff. That is what you have been programmed to believe. But let me help you a little. I just tried some of your examples. I went to Google and typed in “Bigfoot”. I got a bunch of local news channels, along with some of the liberal news outlets in the NW of the country. I even found one from China. Not a tremendous Conservative presence there. I then tried “JFK Conspiracy Theories”. Your theory fell apart again. I got hits from Elle Magazine, CNN, WaPo, Mashable, Rolling Stone, a St. Louis NPR station, Esquire and, oh yeah, one article from Fox. Funny thing…all liberal sites except Fox. But another interesting thing…most of the entries didn’t have anything to do with JFK. They were mainly liberal sites slamming Trump or conservatives. And the Fox article was actually about Sen Rubio attacking Alex Jones.
Maybe the next time you want to challenge me to something you will actually know it will give the results you are looking for.
In the end, you have once again proven my point for me…Google has an extreme liberal bias.

seawulf575's avatar

@ScienceChick I haven’t said it was a crime, I have said it is propaganda supporting the liberal bias. Nothing you have said disproves that. In fact, you actually confirmed it. I suggest you go back and re-read all the excuses that have been given by your fellow liberals as to why Google shows only search results that support liberal viewpoint. You are all starting to argue with each other. Google shows only those sites that are accessed the most, no wait, it is based on how popular the articles are, no wait, being popular doesn’t mean it is accurate or popular or unbiased, no wait….you are all arguing yourselves in circles. You have challenged me to make other searches and in every single example, the Google results have confirmed my original statement. What does it take to make you all admit Google is biased? And why is that so hard for you when the facts are there for all to see?

Dutchess_III's avatar

No. It is not what I was “programmed to believe,” silly. That has been my experience. Yes. If you want a conservative site you have to type in off the wall, super stupid shit. That’s just the way it is.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Response moderated
Soubresaut's avatar

@seawulf575 If the way you’ve characterized my above post was truly what you got from it, then I failed in making my point clear, and wasted both of our time. If I didn’t have a better ways of explaining it a couple of days ago, I doubt I do today.

This would be a good place for me to note, too, that you didn’t replicate my experiment. When I did internal searches on Fox and WaPo, I deliberately did not simply look at the total number of results. If we’re looking at the articles that appear on the first page or so of Google, the backlog doesn’t matter (at least not directly).

I’m not a computer. I don’t have the processing speed to go through as much information as a computer does, nor do I have the patience to try and get close. I had hoped, by picking 2 data points that were relatively easy for me to gather, I could approximate the way a search engine might “favor” certain websites over others without having a specific “bias” deliberately coded into it. And I think my little experiment does that well. With two variables and two websites I was able to show how a simple combination of date + sorted “relevance” may affect a website’s ranking in a search engine. I chose these data points specifically because they were easy for me to gather in a fairly superficial yet measurable way.

We know that Google’s search engine is more complex than that, first because of course it is (their employees are working to make it as sophisticated as possible), second because they tell us so (they don’t use two factors, they use “hundreds”).

I must admit I’m a bit confused by the search results you say you’re getting. When I searched “Clinton,” the first news article that popped up was a Fox News article criticizing Bill Clinton (something which shouldn’t happen, given Google’s bias, should it?). Whether I search the surname alone, or include Hillary’s, I consistently get articles from conservative sites in the top few news results. Tonight it was, specifically, The Washington Examiner, The National Review, and Fox News. You forget, too, that much of the “liberal media” (as you brand it) eagerly take on negative stories of the Clintons (no love lost there, despite their supposed allegiance). I assume that as you were scanning the green text that indicated the source of each article, you simply forgot to look at the headlines themselves. (I would note here, you are far less likely to see Fox critical of popular or prominent Republican politicians than you are the many diverse institutions caught under the umbrella term “liberal media” of Democratic politicians. Odd.)

Unless I am mistaken, you have only named one news website that has been targeted by Google’s supposed political bias. Are there others? If so, which ones? Or is every other news agency a part of the “liberal media”? How many of those are there? There are certainly more non-Fox news agencies in search results than the four you’ve listed.

I would like to repeat one thing I stated above: the test you’ve latched onto is a bad test. I don’t mean it’s not appealing. I can completely understand its appeal for someone who already believes that most news agencies are untrustworthy, or don’t represent his perspective on the world. It offers a simple, clean, decisive answer with a clear narrative villain—and it presents itself as a conclusive test that anyone can perform to confirm their suspicions.

One reason it fails: it’s not testing what it claims to be testing. It can’t. It’s not nearly robust enough. It’s claiming widespread, deliberate tipping of the scales, yet rests the weight of its case on a pinpoint. Yes the simplicity makes it an appealing test, but it doesn’t make it a good or legitimate one. (And, as I mentioned above, searching a single name in a search engine is a bad way to use a search engine for anything more complex than simply finding that person online).

Another reason it fails: Should it be shown that Fox News doesn’t appear as often as other websites (which, again, isn’t shown by this test), the reason or reasons for that would still be in question. You have already bought into the idea that the only possible explanation is Google deliberately coding political bias into their search engine. This is not the only possible explanation, nor is it the most likely. As someone put it better than I could: “The kind of blanket, intentional bias Mr. Trump is claiming would necessarily involve many workers at Google. And Google is leaky; on hot-button issues — debates over diversity or whether to work with the military — politically minded employees have provided important information to the media. If there was even a rumor that Google’s search team was skewing search for political ends, we would likely see some evidence of such a conspiracy in the media.”

I borrowed the above excerpt from this article, which is far from being defensive of Google. It’s titled “Here’s the Conversation We Really Need to Have About Bias at Google,” and I only link it because I thought you might find it interesting. It looks at concerns like Google’s increasing monopoly on the “information landscape,” and the ways artificial intelligence may accidentally “amplify the many biases found in society, even unbeknown to its creators.” So if you feel leery of Google’s ever-increasing dominance, there are plenty of people right there with you, if you look, with better facts and better reasons to support your unease.

seawulf575's avatar

Okay…I can see you are all in need of a more hand’s on approach to showing where your errors lie. Let’s go back to the beginning of this discussion about Google. I go to Google, to the News feeds, and search on “Trump”. Here’s what I get:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Trump&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS706US706&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSjMDo96XdAhWHNd8KHSr5DH0Q_AUICigB&biw=1284&bih=936

There isn’t a single article from a conservative website listed until page 4 of the results. That is an article from Fox that isn’t even about Trump…it is an article about Trump’s DOJ investigating the pedophile Olympic doctor. And you all really believe that results honestly represent either my personal searches or nationwide searches? That so few conservative websites are visited that they don’t actually warrant being seen until page 4 of the searches? So I took it one step further. I went to Duck-Duck-Go for my search engine and repeated this evolution.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Trump&t=opera&iar=news&ia=news

I still see a lot of liberal hits, but the results also show more conservative content as well as the topics being more applicable to Trump. Now I repeat the test for “Clinton”

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS706US706&biw=1284&bih=936&tbm=nws&ei=C-KQW9i1H_Ka_QaNi6jwCg&q=Clinton&oq=Clinton&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.778239.779205.0.780161.7.7.0.0.0.0.228.757.5j1j1.7.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.7.756....0.0V2wG-0c9lA

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Clinton&t=opera&iar=news&ia=news

Again, the results show the same. Much bias on Google, less on other search engines. You have all avoided actually looking for bias with Google and instead have tried putting out all sorts of justifications…most of which come from Google themselves.

@Soubresaut I don’t understand how you got the results you did when you went to Fox or WaPo. You claimed only a very few results (2/10) with Trump in the title. Here’s what I got:

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=trump&ss=fn&sort=latest&start=0

3 out of 10 with Trump in the title. Then I move to WaPo:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/newssearch/?query=Trump&sort=Date&datefilter=All%20Since%202005

2 out of 10 with Trump in the title. Hhhmmm….seems Fox should appear more, or at least the same as WaPo on search results based on that.

So I hope this has at least cleared up some of what I am saying. When you look at Google search results, they appear obviously biased. When you compare them with another, less biased search engine, it confirms it. When you try arguing that my search histories are contributing to Google’s bias, you are way off base. When you try talking about how a key word appears in a title, you are way off base. When you try talking about how liberals sites are more popular, you are partially right….there are many more of them. But that doesn’t excuse negating Fox which is one of the top viewed websites in this country. Any way you slice it, Google is biased. They are manipulating your minds and are nothing more than propaganda for liberals.

ScienceChick's avatar

From a Fox News fan to write this made me almost spit take my coffee. ‘They are manipulating your minds and are nothing more than propaganda….’

tinyfaery's avatar

Ahhhhhhhh…

And this why America is on the decline. Great again? What a joke.

seawulf575's avatar

@ScienceChick Again with the unscientific conclusions. Even when presented with evidence, you promptly ignore it to try making your warped views correct. Here, let me help you. I stated this up above in this thread:
Meanwhile, Fox, which I don’t go to often but have been to several times this year, only showed one.
I don’t watch Fox on TV and I don’t go to their website to search stuff. I have been to their website through articles I have found other places. But you jump right onto me being a Fox News Fan. Amazing. How do you consider yourself a Science Chick, much less a teacher? You are the most biased and illogical person I have met in a long time. Your poor students.

ScienceChick's avatar

When we look for facts, it is always best to consider the source. If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck…. You repeat the Fox news headlines almost verbatim sometimes. I’m calling a duck a duck. And don’t worry about my students. Your life has probably already been improved or saved because of one of them. You’re welcome.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Anyone else pick up on the palpable sexual tension, between @ScienceChick and @seawulf575 ?....

seawulf575's avatar

@ScienceChick So you have just admitted you don’t care about facts, just your assumptions. got it. Thanks. You are right…when it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. You make wild statements and have nothing but opinion to back it up….that would make you a horrible teacher. Thanks for clearing that up.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 that is disturbing, especially since our conversation just included Ducks.

basstrom188's avatar

Mr Grimm are you rich, a climate change denier or a polluter? As far as I can see the only people who have benefitted from Trump are the rich, climate change deniers and polluters.

ScienceChick's avatar

@MrGrimm888 is seapuppy attracted to old dykes? That seems yet another lost cause for the sad mutt.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@basstrom188 . I agree with your sentiment. You must be new. I am not exactly a Trump supporter…

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yeah, no. Only one person here supports Trump and it’s not @MrGrimm888.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Lol. Right. I think we have about 4 Trumpers in the pond though.

Dutchess_III's avatar

We do? Cruiser did…but he’s not here any more. I have him on FB though…I kind of want to ask what he thinks now! For the most part, supporters have gone reaaaaaally quiet.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Oh yeah. Cruiser. I hope he’s happy now. I know he enjoys the tax breaks, but at what ethical cost?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, he always brushed aside our arguments of ethics, but that was before trump really came out in force and showed that not only is he a racist, misogynistic pig, but he’s DUMB as a box of rocks too.
I’ll ask him. Maybe. I don’t want to lose his friendship.

notsoblond's avatar

^he told me that I need to be the parent and not let my child decide for himself that he’s transgender. I’m glad he’s gone from here and my fb if I’m going to be honest. I know this will be removed. oh well

Dutchess_III's avatar

Huh. I wasn’t aware that he told you that Blondie. I am so sorry.

notsoblond's avatar

Been told that by many conservatives. It’s why I’m not friends with them anymore. I’m used to it by now, but thank you.

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