Do you think the misconduct allegations about Brett Kavanaugh are true?

Assuming the charge is valid, I would stack it against his behavior in the years since the incident.

It’s not exactly an 11th hour ploy. The woman told Senator Feinstein in July. Feinstein told the FBI. How it all came out after that is pretty confusing to me. However, yes I believe her. She took a lie detector test In August and passed.
Your belief that something that happened in high school shouldn’t hinder him from becoming a Supreme Court Justice is a little alarming to me. 40 years ago girls couldn’t tell about things like that because no one cared or believed them. I wonder if you would feel the same way if you heard he had killed someone or tortured animals? Is it just the degree of what you perceive as “boys in high school will be boys”?

Yes, I believe it. Especially in the early 80s when some me were sure that women existed only for their sexual satisfaction and had no worth beyond that. He seems like that kind of sleaze to me. Not someone I would want in control of making decisions that affect my gender.

You do realize this wasn’t sexual harassment as you you used in your tag. This was a drunk dude that with a friend trapped a female in a room and climbed on top of her and groped her and tried to rip her clothes off. I call that attempted rape.

And sure. It should disqualify him. Surely there is another Republican lawyer that hasn’t attempted rape.

As for the 11th hour thing. Lets say a dude in high school raped you. But for some reason you decided not to tell anyone. He works at McDonalds so you don’t really think much of it. But then he gets the job as the principle of a all girls high school. Now you might have a good reason to tell someone.

I agree with @johnpowell. This went above and beyond “harassment.” This was a physical assault.
I imagine she’s told many people about it over the years. What was anybody really going to do, especially back then? She was drunk, he was drunk, she probably asked for it, she was probably dressed like a slut, she led him on and and he didn’t know what he was doing so he didn’t do anything wrong.
We know all of that is bullshit, but back then it was the way it was.

@chyna True, not everything that happened in high school is “boys will be boys” and I’m not trying to excuse the action, whether it’s true or not. I’m just not sure that a person shouldn’t be allowed to get past it. If he had actually raped or murdered someone and should’ve been imprisoned for it, that is a bit different than an attempt whose time for punishment might have already passed. In general, I do like to believe that people can redeem themselves. But people have been disqualified from jobs for less.

Would you let him date your daughter?

I understand what you’re saying @Demosthenes, but to me it speaks to a mindset. It speaks to an attitude toward women.
It’s like Tyreek Hill. Man, I used to love that guy. Who wouldn’t love some one who could get a speeding ticket while running, on foot, in a school zone?
Then I heard he got in trouble for beating his pregnant girlfriend in college, and that was it for me.
Well, he realized his pro career was being threatened so he just got all sorry and shit. Rick has totally forgiven him because he’s such a great guy…..but I just don’t think you can really take the tendency to abuse out of a man. They can fake it for the rest of their lives…but it will still be there.

@johnpowell should he be allowed to judge your daughter?

@johnpowell Is against him @stanleybmanly. You might want to redirect to @Demosthenes who seems to be thinking he should be allowed to be redeemed.

Well I might agree were it not for the fact that his rulings from the bench indicate that his thinking is still marooned in the past where that sort of behavior might pass without consequence.

@stanleybmanly Well, that’s the thing. Unless he should actually be in jail right now, I don’t think he should be disqualified from this job unless we don’t think he will be able to do the job well.

I don’t know about that either. If as a high schooler, Kavanaugh had botched an attempted liquor store robbery, would you deem him qualified to sit on the Frderal bench? Your question isn’t actually an either/or. The allegations are indeed an 11th hour ploy, but the timing is hardly the issue. Clarence Thomas wouldn’t stand a chance in hell of being appointed today with the weight of evidence from Anita Hill. Kavanaugh might squeek past this, and we can have will have a 2 predator voting block.

Pretty unsavory, but not a crime.

I also believe that all these 30–40 year later revelations are quite opportunistic.

Trying to ruin a person’s career because when he was 17 yrs old and tipsy he got a little out of line?

@stanleybmanly I mean, if there are so many other qualified candidates, that might be enough to rule him out. But one key difference is that you could prove he attempted to rob a liquor store; this will probably always just be he said/she said, that’s part of the problem. The accusation is enough. It doesn’t even need to be true. That’s the kind of negative side of the “metoo” movement that I have a problem with.

@Demosthenes Same. I watched the Bill Cosby accusers pretty intensely and I don’t think we get context of the period in time, etc…. I mean, Janice Dickinson? Not buying that for one second.

Just because we haven’t heard about it before now doesn’t mean it was a sudden revelation. Most of us hadn’t heard of Kavanaugh before now, either. We don’t know how many people she has talked to about it in her life. We know she talked to a counselor in 2012. It was a traumatic event.
Before now, it didn’t matter. No one cared. Certainly no one took it seriously in the 80s.
But now, people care. Now it’s big news. Now conservatives want to call it an 11th hour ploy, when it probably isn’t.

What if the allegations are true? Should that disqualify Kavanaugh from the SC?

What if it is an 11th hour ploy? Does that make it any less true? Should Kavanaugh be confirmed because, although true, the allegations were brought up late?

Can the two actions be separated?

We don’t know that it is an 11th hour ploy. From what I’m hearing, it is not.
Like I said, people are simply paying attention now.

Yes. If they are true it should disqualify him.

Now, lets switch it up. What if a 17 year old girl attacked and tried to rape a 15 year old boy, then, years later, wound up to be a Suprememe Court nominee, should her long ago behavior disqualify her.

Is it just me, or does it seem more women believe him, and more men think she’s making it up. Why is this?

@Dutchess_III :: Is that a legit question? Your mom, your sister, your aunt, your grandma. I would bet two of the four have been raped.

I have never raped, or been raped so for me rape is like a jar of pickled sea-fish tongues. I know there is one out there but I have never seen it.

My sisters twins are 17 and getting raped is a constant fear. If they see a dude at night walking towards them they cross the street. They stick in pairs. They do not leave their drinks unattended if they are at a house party.

@Dutchess_III Yes, but she wasn’t raped, so claiming victimhood seems opportunistic.

@johnpowell Only 310 in 1,000 rapes is reported in the US.

Many women, myself included, feel that they are partly responsible, for being dumb, or being too drunk, etc… It’s great to be aware of things, but being hyper aware can also cause it’s own damage.

BTW, I just looked him up on FB and he’s been married to our fellow classmate since 2001, has kids and expecting his first grandchild.

Would it be fair for me to ruin his life and relationships by bringing this up publicly now?

If he ran for office would it be fair then?

What would I get out of making him pay in whatever way I could?

Doesn’t seem right to me.

Is what you’re saying is that because most women have dealt with this, we are more likely to believe her @johnpowell? I agree.
But tell me, then why are the men more likely to dismiss her when they all know how some men can be? When they’ve had sisters and mothers raped?

I think “a little out of line” is an inappropriate assessment here, @KNOWITALL. She literally feared for her life.
Read the article from the Atlantic to get a better handle on what actually happened.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/09/brett-kavanaugh-and-the-revealing-logic-of-boys-will-be-boys/570415/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=the-atlantic-fb-test-390-1-&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social

This man could be deciding cases like Brock Turner’s.

Wow @canidmajor . That was very good, very deep. Many of the men seem to dismiss it as “fun.” I have news. It is no fucking fun. It is terrifying.

@canidmajor They were kids, not adults. Aren’t juvenile records sealed for a reason? Again, he committed no crime, he was drinking, acting out, and scared her and I acknowledge that.

And that makes it OK? At 17 you can hold down a job, and drive a car. You can become an emancipated minor, with all the privileges and responsibilities that that entails. A bully at 17 is very likely a bully for life.
I am very glad that you decided not to raise children if you think this is OK.

It does not matter if they were “kids.” He is that kind of guy @KNOWITALL. I knew “kids” who would attack girls, and they’d still attack them as adults. I never dated a guy who would attack a woman.

This isn’t the same thing as shoplifting or getting in to fisticuffs with another guy.

This is what happened:
”Speaking publicly for the first time, Ford said that one summer in the early 1980s, Kavanaugh and a friend — both “stumbling drunk,” Ford alleges — corralled her into a bedroom during a gathering of teenagers at a house in Montgomery County.

While his friend watched, she said, Kavanaugh pinned her to a bed on her back and groped her over her clothes, grinding his body against hers and clumsily attempting to pull off her one-piece bathing suit and the clothing she wore over it. When she tried to scream, she said, he put his hand over her mouth.

“I thought he might inadvertently kill me,” said Ford, now a 51-year-old research psychologist in northern California. “He was trying to attack me and remove my clothing.”

Ford said she was able to escape when Kavanaugh’s friend and classmate at Georgetown Preparatory School, Mark Judge, jumped on top of them, sending all three tumbling. She said she ran from the room, briefly locked herself in a bathroom and then fled the house.

@canidmajor That’s a pretty shitty thing to say to me. Oh well, you learn who people really are in threads like these. I just complimented you last week, too….shame.

you’re lack of understanding of how things work is frightening. Call me all the names you want, but defending a potential rapist is pretty low life-ish on just about anybody’s scale.

And you should bother to read the article, it’s telling and relevant.

@canidmajor Potential rapist…..(scoffs), but I bet you vote Democrat don’t you? So hypocritical.

Grinding against someone, trying to rip their clothes off and putting your hand over their mouth is sexual assault. The only reason a rape didn’t occur is because he was too drunk and his friend jumped on them.

@KNOWITALL Gee – did you ever laugh at Bill Cosby? So hypocritical!

Isn’t it possible to admit that Kavanaugh might be a flawed candidate for many reasons even if you clearly would like a Conservative Supreme Court Justice?

@janbb Really, et tu Brute?

What does laughing at Bill Cosby have to do with anything? I sure wouldn’t take an old man to court over something that happened 40 years ago!

Yes, it is possible. All I’m saying is that it seems pretty odd to try and convict someone for life based on one incident, while intoxicated, at 17 yrs old. Even criminals get out of jail sooner, that’s why I find it outrageous.

@KNOWITALL I was pretty careful not to be nasty, I hope you notice but I thought your Democrat dig at @canidmajor was not germane. Where did that come from if not a dig at Bill Clinton and a smear at all Democrats? I guess the question is one of whether a bully and brute at 17 is different at 55. My sons would never, ever have attacked a woman at any age. I respect you so I’m bowing out now.

A bully and a brute at 17 is a bully and a brute for life. They learn that behavior early, very early, at home.
Kavanaugh is a bully and a brute.

@janbb No, actually I meant several Democrats, that we’re never allowed to mention here or we get bullied off the thread. Anthony Weiner would be a good example of how indiscretions were overlooked, as he went on to run for Mayor of NY.

I voted Democrat before, so it’s not a party issue for me at all.

Anyway, have at it, I guess as an ACTUAL rape victim I don’t deserve to speak with any kind of experience here anyway.

I doubt you’d get anyone sticking up for the Weiner – here or anywhere! :-)

What indiscretions were over looked with Weinier? He got his ass fired and thrown in jail! He started serving he federal prison sentence last year. He is disgusting. I’ll be he was disgusting in high school too.

Kavanaugh will be willing to give many Republicans exactly what they want – the power to tell women what they can or can’t do with their bodies – so they’re willing to overlook or justify away any repulsive act he has done. Disgusting how people abandon all morals over the promise of political power.

Yes, I think they are true. The woman’s therapist has been able to produce records of her speaking about this incident as far back as 2012, disproving any claim that she’s doing this for political reasons, and she passed a polygraph.

@KNOWITALL Going only by @canidmajor ‘s quote of the incident, it looks very much like attempted rape. The difference from actual rape being mainly that he accidentally failed. I too find it very disturbing to read anyone trying to characterize that as not a very serious concern. The point about term length you mentioned hardly applies, since he has not been in jail, no one is trying to convict him – it’s just about who do we want for a Supreme Court justice? It seems well worth consideration, to me.

And that’s not even getting into all the other reasons not to want Kavanaugh as a Supreme Court justice!

There are a lot of people out here who cannot get ANY job because of something stupid they did as kids and the vast majority of them did not physically harm or threaten someone, they just had some noxious weed. Yet here we have someone who wants to stand in judgement, potentially of someone accused of the exact same thing he has been accused of. How is he going to maintain impartiality? Hard to feel sorry for someone who might not get to be a SC justice when you view it in that context.

Any boy who tries to harm a girl while young and intoxicated will do so when they are older. It’s not a mistake just because they are young and intoxicated.

:Like those guys who try to blame the woman for their inability to control themselves because the woman dressed provocatively. His attitude toward her might also explain his failure to support Roe v Wade and other issues having to do with the ability of a woman to make decisions concerning her own body.

Ah, so now it was just Rough Horse Play says the guy who said he wasn’t at the party to begin with.

@KNOWITALL read the account. They didn’t stop, she escaped. She would likely have been raped by two young men had she not escaped. These guys weren’t ungrown boys of 11.
Calling me a hypocrite is silly, how I vote is not the discussion here. I wouldn’t want anyone in that position of power who thinks it’s OK to commit rape. There are likely other candidates that you would approve, that I would not, who would not have these allegations brought against them.
I appreciate that you think women should not have bodily autonomy, (they die because of that, BTW), but this is a different issue. My objections in this instance are not political.

I’m pretty sick of hearing how it will affect his life, his family, his career. What about her life, family and career? She has lived with this for almost 40 years and has has had to see a therapist over it years ago. But hey, let’s not ruin him because of it. ~

I do believe that it’s true. Moreover, I think most people, including Trump believe that it’s true. It sounds exactly like the behavior of an arrogant privileged drunk high school boy from 30 years ago. Back then had his victim attempted to file charges, she probably would have been told to leave it alone for the sake of her own reputation. And it would have been sound advice.

If she’d tried to file charges back then she’d have been blamed, ridiculed, mocked, threatened…all those things that make women, much less girls, reluctant, even today, to report it.

So you think I ever told anyone about being sexually assaulted by a friend of my father’s? Hell no. You are the first people I ever told.

I didn’t talk about my abuse for years and when I did it was discounted by people I trusted.

That’s right. Just like people are trying to discount Ford now, the slut.

So why exactly is the FBI being asked to investigate? It’s my understanding that the FBI doesn’t normally investigate sexual assault claims about people who were not government employees at the time, let alone minors.

To buy time, maybe? Sorry to be cynical, but there are reasons this is seen as a political ploy.

This is exactly the kind of things that the FBI investigates when conducting background checks, then they follow up leads. This is a lead and should be looked into.

It may or not be political in nature or in timing but are you saying if it is, regardless of if it is true, then it shouldn’t matter @Demosthenes?

I read something today that pointed out that if a woman waits to report an assault they are told that it is in the mans past and should be left there. If she reports it right away she is told she must think of his future. What about her past and her future? Do they not deserve consideration as well?

@Demosthenes I wondered about that too, but this is some serious stuff that needs investigating. We are poised to give this guy a life long appointment to the Supreme Court. I think it warrants FBI investigation. I think it falls under Federal jurisdiction.

But…why wasn’t trump investigated by the FBI? Or was he….?

^^^ Don’t you remember…Trump’s was ONLY “locker room” talk so it didn’t count!!!

No, it was admitted physical assault as well. Maybe this Kavanaugh issue is the last Goddamn straw. We aren’t gonna take it any more. Maybe things have change that much since Trump took office. Maybe.

I find the whole thing to be questionable. Kavanaugh has been a public figure for decades. Why is this suddenly coming out now? It seems odd. It also becomes a he-said/she-said matter…really hard to prove. So it looks like it is nothing more than an attempt to smear Kavanaugh. To further that appearance, as @chyna stated, she supposedly brought this up to Feinstein in July, yet it wasn’t until September for it to be brought out? Why? Timing is important.
The other part that seems disingenuous is that the Dems are up in arms about Kavanaugh allegedly attacking this girl 35+ years ago, yet are ignoring Keith Ellison physically assaulting his girlfriend when there is a witness and a video recording of it. So it seems as if it isn’t the protection of women or even believing the allegations that are the issue, it is the attempt at a smear that counts.

Sure, just what I would do for fun if I were a successful professor; subject myself to a being humiliated and insulted by a bunch of old white men. Shit, Grassley is 87 and his sidekick Hatch is 85. I doubt they know shit from shinola about the subject of sexual assault. Besides their mind is made up and they don’t want it clouded with facts. No matter what is said, the conclusion is forgone. Nothing short of a video would stop Kavanaughs approval and they would have to watch that several times. In private. With Kleenex. Perverted old farts.

Here’s hoping that in the coming days someone throws them to the ground, assaults, gropes and grinds on them while trying to hump them. This is what should happen before they get to judge her.

Keep them fingers crossed y’all, it could happen. There are some really fucked up people in the Republican fold.

Because he is poised to become far more than a mere “public figure,” now @seawulf575. Do you not grasp the enormity of what it means for the US if he is appointed to the Supreme Court?

@Dutchess_III Yes, I do. But when he was nominated to a federal bench, why not bring it up then? It would have taken away his federal seat as well as any future SCOTUS nominations. Let me ask…has she brought the same allegations against the other boys that were supposedly taking part in her assault? Why hasn’t she named them as well? Why isn’t she going after all of them at once? If it was so traumatic that it silenced her for 35+ years, why isn’t she making it a joint attack? She claimed there were others there. But in the end, it still doesn’t change my comments about timing by the Dems and their hypocrisy surrounding Keith Ellison. If she brought this up in July, why did the Dems wait until September to release it? What…they couldn’t lead with that? Sorry…it all smacks of a political ploy.

She did name the other boy. Mark Judge.

How do you suppose she managed to produce medical records from her therapist showing that she talked about this in 2012 if it’s a political ploy? Do you think she planned this 6 years in advance?

@seawulf575 Oh c’mon. You must admit there’s hypocrisy on both sides and both sides play politics. Look at what McConnell did to Garland’s nomination. Nobody’s lily white. Al Franken had to leave the Senate for much less. Still, why not let the FBI investigate if he is, as he claims to be, innocent? Don’t you think a Supreme Court Justice should not have committed a violent crime against a woman?

And the timing doesn’t change that it should be investigated prior to any confirmation. The timing would not negate the act.

And speaking of timing, lets talk about Garland. And the unnecessary rush these hearings are being subjected to.

@janbb I absolutely say that both sides play politics. I have stated many times that we need to get rid of career politicians and start getting people that actually want to serve the country. Let the FBI investigate if they like. But while they’re at it, why don’t they investigate Ellison as well?

@Mariah why aren’t they asking the FBI to investigate Mr. Judge as well? And as I remember, she claimed there were a group of boys, not just two.

@seawulf575 There were 4 boys in the party, but only 2 in the room with her while she was being attacked.

The statute of limitations is up, so Mr. Judge could not be tried for a crime. It also sounds like Kavanaugh was the main perpetrator based on her description of what happened. Kavanaugh couldn’t be tried for a crime either, but he could absolutely be denied a privilege such as a SCOTUS seat for something like this, which is why an investigation is warranted for him moreso than Judge. There have been calls to have Mr. Judge testify as a witness.

@rojo…what rush? There was a vacancy on the SCOTUS and Trump made a nomination to fill it. That was at the beginning of July. It is the late middle of September. 3 months. Why is that a rush? Let me help you,,,Kagan was nominated May 10 and confirmed by the Senate August 5. Sotomayor was nominated June 1 and sworn in on August 8. Kavanaugh is not a rush. In fact, if you look at all the justices currently sitting on the SCOTUS, Kagan was the longest time at 87 days. Kavanaugh is at 104 as of today. I think you need to revisit your thoughts.

In 2016 there was a SCOTUS vacancy for a year while the GOP refused to hold hearings for Garland. Having a vacancy for 3+ months is not unheard of or unworkable.

Ellison is not in line for a position and so let us take care of the more immediate concerns then, if you want, we can investigate Ellison. ‘Course, let us wait ‘till they finish with Long of the FEMA. Don’t want to overload them.

Also, same goes for Judge. He is not trying to become a SC justice. If the initial investigation shows further investigation is warranted, then they can do so.

What rush? Seriously? If there is no rush then let us hold up with the vote until all the information is in. And while talking of Kagan and Sotomayor, why did you not also mention Garland? How long has he been waiting for his confirmation hearing?

I was 15 yrs old when I was raped by two guy friends. All this speculation on this question is exactly why I never went to an adult.

This was 30 years ago. I found one of the guys on Facebook and he’s still a big douche according to his posts. If he were to run for office or another important position I might say something as well, but it would probably ruin my life.

sigh, as if being raped and assaulted at 15 isn’t enough to live with

@rojo you are correct, Ellison isn’t up for a position…he already has one. He is already a representative from Minnesota. So does that mean he is above the law? Oh! and his case isn’t past the statute of limitations. It also has actual witnesses and video evidence. Yet because he is a Dem we don’t go after him?
As for Garland, I really don’t care if they voted on him or not. Let’s face it, our congress is dysfunctional. The Repubs could have done the kabuki theater and delayed things (as the Dems are doing now), then voted against Garland at the last minute or they could just decide not to consider him. Either way shows extreme partisanship and that is a huge problem with our politics now. Please see my response to @janbb above as to how I view partisan politics. In the end, he was not voted on or confirmed. Time to move on.
If you look at my comments, they pretty well go right down the line of shooting at partisanship. Everyone has already convicted Kavanaugh for something that he was never even accused of…until the 11th hour of his confirmation. I would put forth that before we convict him, there ought to be actual evidence. Go back in time and look at how I commented on these similar things with Roy Moore. BTW…what ever happened to that fiasco? As soon as he lost his election bid, you never heard one more word about him abusing women or girls. That tends to make it look even more like a political ploy. Unfortunately for America, that hurts women that are attacked. It numbs the public to believing them.

Not convicted @seawulf575 but certainly less credible than Dr. Ford. Lets face it, who want to be famous for being the girl who was raped? She gains nothing, He gains everything from this.

Did you guys listen to @notsoblondanymore? Her story. These were boys she thought were her friends. She trusted them.

We have another Jelly who became pregnant because of a rape.

But, you know, it was a long time ago, and boys will be boys, so just get over it girls. I can’t believe you even remember it. I bet your aren’t remembering it right. You probably led them on.

@Dutchess_III Well, she did have a bathing suit on under her clothes~

On average, there are 321,500 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year in the United States.
Younger People Are at the Highest Risk of Sexual Violence
Infographic reads “The majority of sexual assault victims are under 30.” Statistic is broken down into five age groups. 15% of sexual violence victims are 12–17, 54% of victims are 18–34, 28% of victims are 35–64, and 3% are 65+.

Ages 12–34 are the highest risk years for rape and sexual assault.

Women and Girls Experience Sexual Violence at High Rates
Graphic illustrating the statistic that 1 in every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed, 2.8% attempted).

Millions of women in the United States have experienced rape.

As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.
Young women are especially at risk.

82% of all juvenile victims are female. 90% of adult rape victims are female.
Females ages 16–19 are 4 times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault.
Women ages 18–24 who are college students are 3 times more likely than women in general to experience sexual violence. Females of the same age who are not enrolled in college are 4 times more likely.

And those stats are based on reported assaults. I never once reported any of the assaults on me. I bet those numbers are closer to 100%. We have 2 Jellies on THIS THREAD who were raped. How many females are here?
I was almost raped twice. Grabbed, groped, pinched regularly when I was 14 to 22.

I have NEVER seen an announcement of who is being appointed to the Federal Bench; so, she might not have known at the time.

Even IF she’s lying, what harm would be done by postponing the confirmation until the FBI can fully investigate UNLESS they already know that he’s guilty as hell??? He will still have the rest of his life to get ALL the females back in line!!!

So, @Dutchess_lll, @notsoblondanymore, @chyna and the rest, why aren’t you screaming about Ellison? His case is far more concrete than Kavanaugh’s and he is already an elected official making decisions for this country. You all like stats…go look at the stats for battered women. Here, let me help:

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/facts.htm

Let’s apply your same logic to that case:

(1) Monahan is certainly more credible than Ellison. After all, who would want to go public that you were in an abusive relationship?
(2) Why would she lie? What does she have to gain? And more importantly, why would her son lie? What would he have to gain?
(3) women are battered far more than they are raped. Up to 6 million per year.
(4) He is already holding an office and look at the damage he can do from there!
(5) There was credible information that he was running for office, yet she didn’t speak out against him. That is typical of battered women.

But wait…Ellison is a DEMOCRAT! What was I thinking. That is why you don’t want to even mention that he should be tossed out on his ear. Hypocrites.

Face it girls, until you are willing to go as hard after Ellison as you are Kavanaugh, your credibility is shot. You are on a political crusade, not a women’s rights or protection crusade.

I can only answer for myself. Why am I not screaming about Ellison? I hadn’t heard about his case until you brought it up, that’s why. Now that I’ve read up a bit on him, I believe he should also resign.

The Kavanaugh situation is urgent to me because the GOP is ready to push him through to a lifetime position next week if we don’t do anything now.

I advocated for Al Franken’s resignation during his scandal even though it harmed my political goals, so you can fuck right off with your accusations of hypocrisy.

@Mariah I think this is one of the differences between you and I. I don’t believe Ellison should resign. Yet. He has been accused….that is all. I think he should have a chance to defend himself against the accusations. That is the same thing I am saying about Kavanaugh.
I do suspect the timing of the accusations against Kavanaugh, though. It looks amazingly like an effort at political smear. All the more so because Ford supposedly notified Feinstein about this in July and it didn’t come to light until September. If there were actually proof against Kavanaugh, then I would suggest he should withdraw his name from the hat. But if there were really a case against him, the Dems could have brought it up in July and there would be all sorts of time for investigation or for resolution before confirmation. If it isn’t true or if there is no evidence, this is a smear campaign. If there is actual proof, then the Dems are politicizing her pain by waiting to bring it to light. What does that say about their views of how women are treated? To me it says they are willing to politicize any pain and suffering to help their political goals. That brings my thoughts back to how corrupt Congress is (not just Dems) and why there ought to be term limits for all congressmen and senators.
But the whole problem with the #MeToo drive is that it basically convicts guys (and gals) based on decades old accusations for which there is often no evidence other than someone coming forward and saying it happened. That would be like some guy you were at a party with 20 years ago coming forward and claiming you drugged and raped him. Of course there is no evidence or witnesses, but by the idea of #MeToo, you would be guilty until you could prove your innocence. And even then there would be a pall of doubt over you. We seem to have forgotten the idea that a person is innocent until proven guilty and that they have a right to a fair trial before being convicted.
One thing you said did bother me…that you hadn’t heard about Ellison until I said something. That is a HUGE issue and yet you have not heard of it at all. That shows the liberal bias of the news media…that they would suppress such a big story. But that is a different thread.

I have not heard of the Ellison case either.

What @Mariah said. All of it.

And if I’m not mistaken, notsoblondanymore did not report it at the time of her rape either. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, it means she was terrified to report it. And I believe her 100%.

I had NEVER heard of Keith Ellison either; so, I set out to find out what was being hidden!!! Ellison should NOT be in office!!! The difference between he & Kavanaugh is that he is an “elected” official who can be VOTED OUT of office; where Kavanaugh, once sworn in, will be there for the rest of my life. IF I lived in Minnesota, I would be voting AGAINST Ellison; but, my Georgia vote does NOT affect him being an elected official in Minnesota!!!

As a woman who was once married to an abusive spouse & also gang raped by 8 men, I know you think that you understand from where we women speak. Until you have been beaten by your spouse or raped for hours with NO hope of getting free & then being told to “just forget it” because your case “is NOT important enough” to waste the manpower of the police force, I don’t think that you have a VALID opinion!!!I believe that you’re entitled to have an opinion & I believe in your right to your own opinion; but at the same time, I think you need to just forget it because your opinion is NOT relevant in most of the lives of the women in this thread!!!

The ONLY thing I can agree with you is that BOTH Ellison & Kavanaugh deserve to tell their side & so does Karen Monahan & Christine Blasey Ford & NOBODY should get a pass just because things didn’t happen in a timely manner!!! Rich kids have been given way too many passes to begin with!!!

I see your attitude to be part of the problem!!! Once again I’m being told to “just forget it”. Well, I didn’t forget it the first time & I DON’T plan on forgetting it THIS time. Now, when Ellison goes up for reelection next time, I will be willing to help Karen Monahan to get her word out in hopes that this can turn into a TWO CREEP banishment!!!

Well, this is what, the 4th woman who has never heard of Ellison either. And also what @Mariah said, especially the “fuck right off part.”

I’ve heard of Keith Ellison, though I found his association with the Nation of Islam as disturbing as the allegations. But I’m not a Democrat, so…meh.

Anyway, it seems that Ford does not want to have the “first word” on this, but that’s sort of how it goes. The accused will defend themselves after the allegations are presented. She’s going to have to testify and talk first, otherwise this is going to get thrown out.

She must be under extreme stress. If she is not believed then I think there is a good chance she may go to jail. Almost certainly her career will be ruined.

@seawulf575 Feinstein and others aware of Ford’s charges were prohibited from bringing them forward specifically due to their promise at her request to withold her story from public exposure. And the double standard charge is silly, unless you truly believe that Ellison could survive a Supreme Court nomination with his sordid past unexposed. Do you actually believe that?

The charge of Democratic ambush doesn’t hold up either. Only Ford could choose when to surface with the charges, and in view of treatment of Anita Hill, I fully understand her reluctance to come forward. Had she appeared with this information at Kavanaugh’s initial appointment to the bench, the incident would probably be dismissed as a boyhood prank. In any case, the timing of Ford’s appearance is not the issue. It is the truth of her account that must be answered, and if credible, Kavanaugh’s suitability as a judge.

@stanleybmanly then I would suggest that Ford is naive and/or that Feinstein lied to her. Think about it. Here’s what the scenario you are all painting:

30+ years ago at a party, Ms Ford went alone to a separate room with at least two boys, one of them is supposedly Kavanaugh. They started fooling around and Kavanaugh and the other boy(s) started taking it too far and got on top of her. She got loose and locked herself in the bathroom until it was safe to leave, apparently. Then we fast forward 30 years and she suddenly sees Kavanaugh on the TV and the horror comes back. She then decides she wants the world to know so she reaches out to Sen Feinstein, but then tells her she wants her privacy. ?huh? She is speaking out against a SCOTUS nominee but believes her anonymity will be maintained…that she won’t actually have to face the person she is accusing. And Feinstein, instead of telling her that is a pipe dream agrees to keep her privacy.
I think when I read that out loud it sounds sillier than when I type it. I guess if you believe whatever the Dems tell you blindly it makes perfect sense. But to believe it you have to believe that Ford is a complete naive idiot…to think she can come forward with what should be a career ending accusation but not want it to go public. Why tell a Senator then? Why tell a senator if you really don’t want it going public. And if you know it is going to be public, how can you believe that no one will ask who is making the accusation or what proof they have? And if she really is that sort of naive idiot, then Sen Feinstein absolutely lied to her because she would know that it would have to all go public.
Now, if you take her accusation as being somewhat true, I can see her getting outraged and coming forward and claiming issue, but I really can’t get to her believing she would be kept anonymous. In other words, the whole thing was timed for maximum effectiveness….a political ploy. They couldn’t find anything in his confirmation testimony to realistically disqualify him so suddenly out comes a 30 year old sexual misconduct complaint to stall things further. That makes a whole lot more sense to me.

And @stanleybmanly you grill me on Ellison, but you are defending him. You are basically saying that his brutality towards women is okay because he isn’t going for SCOTUS. Funny how you had an entirely different song when it was Roy Moore. Hypocrite.

That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is that Ellison’s career is probably finished. And I haven’t grilled you on anything. And let’s take a peek at your narrative compared to Ford’s account of events. Ford claims that she was on her way to the bathroom when she was accosted and FORCED into the bedroom. She was FORCED onto the bed and her mouth was covered to prevent her crying out. She was groped, His honor straddled and groped the girl and tried to remove her bathing suit. This is the account I read in the biased liberal media. Where did you find yours? Why tell a Senator? Because a Senator has the weight to have the matter investigated so Ford won’t be hung out to dry like Anita Hill. Ford feared EXACTLY what she is going through now, and as it is, the lives of her and her family will never be the same.

Ok, just to clarify, this is about Kavanaugh. If you want a thread about Ellison start one. Stop hijacking the one about Kavanaugh, Straw man arguments must stop.

Perhaps we should give Kavanaugh a pass because of Ellison but that was not the question. Should we give every punk male rapist a pass because of someone else who isn’t prosecuted?

^standing ovation

@rojo so using precedence is not allowed when discussing how to address a situation? Please help me figure this out. Because it is attempted to be used against me all the time. In this case, the question was what I think about the allegations against Kavanaugh. I stated that and used the Ellison case as an example of how situations like this are treated and why I felt treating it differently was wrong. Funny though, it seems that when I am making a solid point and identifying the hypocrisy of the situation, you suddenly want me to stop “hijacking” the thread.

@stanleybmanly why would you believe Ellison’s career would be finished? As you can plainly see by the responses to my statements, many of these liberals have been so sheltered from it that they never even heard about it. If the media protects him and doesn’t air his dirty laundry, why would it impact his career? Do you hear anyone calling for his resignation? No. You hear the Dems trying to avoid an investigation into his slime.
As for the rest of your comment, all you are doing is cementing my previous statement. You are trying to focus on semantics from 30 years ago. You entirely ignore the idea that someone could believe they could make such an accusation against a SCOTUS nominee and not have to go public with it. You ignore the fact that Feinstein sat on it for two months before bringing it up and then, only after the confirmation hearings were done. You ignore all these things in an effort to avoid actually having to think rationally. How about it? Was Ford really that ignorant and naive or was Feinstein playing a political game?

I’m not ignoring ANYTHING. The whole country was “sheltered” from the misdeeds of a backwater Minnesota Congressman, except for the residents of Minnesota itself. The story was working its way to national news and is now indeed there. In your desperate attempts to cook up liberal shortcomings and media conspiracies, you dig up an individual that none of us ever heard of and plop him down beside Moore and Kavanaugh who were at the forefront of national news months before any revelations of scandal. It’s another example of your favorite tactic—false equivalence. You make the claim that the reason liberals never heard of Ellison is because the liberal media suppresses the news. Apparently the right wing rags and wing nut blogosphere were in on the conspiracy to shield us from news of Democratic evil. Otherwise you would certainly have brought him up before now. And THAT’s the point Liberals aren’t being shielded by their darling press. The accusation is STUPID on its face. The press, liberal or otherwise is NEVER going to ignore any story that’s a juicy scandal. It is merely that it took a few days for a story about an obscure backwater Congressman to bubble to national attention. Now that the spotlight is on him, Ellison’s career is probably over. Like Al Franken, a liberal that certainly received no favors from the MSM, Ellison is probably finished. And if he should survive this, it will be exactly because he lacks the celebrity status to hold the focus of the MSM.

@stanleybmanly again…trying to downplay Ellison. He isn’t just some backwater Minnesota congressman. He is also the deputy chairman of the DNC. He was almost the chairman, but got beat out by a slim margin in a second round of voting. That ups his importance significantly. The chairman wants to make him the face of the Democratic party. Or did. He was in the news a whole lot before the charges he attacked his girlfriend came to light. But if you have to admit that, a lot of your partisan anger has to go away. It pokes holes in your arguments.

Now to Ford. Your skewed reasoning is rather breathtaking in its lopsided articulation. Of course Ford realized that she could not make an accusation against Kavanaugh without going public with it and revealing her identity. This is EXACTLY why she didn’t come forward and held Feinstein to the promise not to go public. That promise was the reason Feinstein “sat on it for 2 months”. What Ford wanted was an investigation of the allegations prior to her coming forward to face the barrage of shit destined to turn her life inside out. Feinstein in frustration put the matter in the hands of the FBI.

Thank you for the revelations on Ellison, though I very much suspect that you did not know a single one of those facts you listed about the man a week ago. I’d also be willing to bet that YOU never heard of him before the allegations of beating his girlfriend came to light.

@stanleybmanly I actually heard about Ellison when it first happened. But then I go to conservative outlets as well, so I would have heard of it. I have seen other news channels broadcast his speeches and his views, but they avoided this. There was even coverage of him during Trump’s state of the nation speech to congress. He is in the news quite frequently actually…unless he does something wrong and then it is crickets.
And the whole thing with Ford is exactly what you are saying. She decided to come forward but then didn’t want to go public. How did she think that was going to happen? She is accusing a guy that is being nominated to the SCOTUS of sexual assault when he was 18. It is going to be big news and she knew it. To go to Feinstein but then ask for it to not go public is a contradiction. You can’t have both things. Either you are making the accusation or you aren’t. If you aren’t, then you don’t go to a senator with it. If you are, then you don’t expect it to not go public. That is just common sense. So either, as I stated before, she is either stupid, which I don’t believe, or naive, which she might be, or she is playing a part in a smear campaign which also might be part of it. And Feinstein cannot be so naive or stupid to believe that she wouldn’t be going public with it. She should have told Ms Ford that right up front. To not do that was pure irresponsibility for wasting everyone’s time going through the confirmation hearings and for “promising” to keep it private. Unless it is a political ploy, and then the whole timing makes perfect sense. Sit on it until confirmation hearings are done and if nothing else presents itself, then tote this out. So in that case, either Ford was complicit or not, but either way, it is a political ploy. How is that skewed logic? Please…help me see where that doesn’t make sense.

You keep missing the point that Ford may have sought out someone with the juice to have the charges seriously examined for their credibility, prior to the disclosure of her name. And Feinstein did turn the material over to the FBI , who declined further involvement. If Ford was naive, it was in believing that her allegations would be acted upon by the FBI minus direction from senior decision makers in the executive branch.

@stanleybmanly, I understand wanting to reach out to someone with enough juice to act upon it. I get that. What I don’t get is the naive thought that she could take that action and really believe she could remain anonymous. It just doesn’t jibe. And it still doesn’t address why Feinstein sat on it until after the confirmation hearings were over. As for believing the FBI would just sit on it, you have to consider that Kavanaugh has been through 6 FBI background checks already. There probably isn’t much to investigate. And even by her own admission, there really isn’t much in the way of proof. She names Judge as the witness but he has already stated he has no recollection of the event she describes. She also named someone else who likewise claimed to know nothing of an event like that. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but it becomes impossible to prove. It has already moved from a he-said/she-said thing to a she-said/they said one. Looking into this, I came across this article:

https://news.grabien.com/story-8-reasons-question-veracity-kavanaughs-accuser?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=mixi&utm_campaign=grabien

I don’t know the website…never been there before…but I suspect it is a conservative outlet so it probably has some slant. But it does bring up some interesting thoughts. I attempted to see if I could find out more information about some of the items and had some success, though I did not go back to verify all of them. What this looks like right now is that something happened to this woman when she was a teenager. She blames Kavanaugh whether he was actually involved or not. But there is no real proof…right or wrong. If Kavanaugh actually did this, he will probably get away with it since no crime was ever reported, he was never named (until his SCOTUS nomination), there is no physical evidence and none of the witnesses she claims were present have any recollection of it at all. Many would say that is horrible and maybe so. But let’s flip to the other option: he did nothing of the sort. Let’s say Ford is actually making up the whole thing in an effort to block Kavanaugh from getting the SCOTUS seat. It would be equally horrible if he did not get it because of a baseless fabrication. You can’t even say “let’s err on the side of caution” because there is no side of caution in this. Someone is lying or mistaken. And there is no way to prove or disprove for certain. That is why these decades old accusations are so onerous. They may be true, but they may also be smears and there is no way to prove it one way or the other. If it is true and the person gets away with it, that is a travesty of justice. If it a smear and it works, it becomes a political weapon that plays on the idea that sexual assault can be used at will to smear any political person at any time. That is a horrible way to run a country.

@seawulf575 so…your argument is, it’s her fault?