How do I determine a student's gender before I have a reason to refer to them as "he," or "she"?

“Can I have your attention, please…, who found the eraser of Andy?”

“Has anyone seen Andy’s eraser? If you find Andy’s eraser, please return it to Andy.”

That’s a thought though…if I could get one of the students to use the correct pronoun first. What kind of question could I ask another student about Andy that wouldn’t give away my true reason for asking?

“their”

I suppose I could refer to them as “they,” or “their,” but that would get pretty awkward pretty quick, I think, and would quickly send the same message that they don’t want to hear, that I don’t know what gender they are!”

“Have you seen Andy’s eraser? If you see their eraser return it to them, please.” That’s pretty transparent, don’t you think?

Other than that, you can refer to them as “filthy earthlings”, “lowly mortals”, and “damn dirty apes”.

“Their” or “they” is now the accepted gender neutral pronoun so I would suggest using that. If you want to be more specific, it is common with older students to ask them what personal pronoun they want to be referred as.

My point is the, younger ones will get upset if you have to ask. The older ones it is not as big of a deal because 6th grade and above it gets physcially obvious.
As I said in the details and in response to @ragingloli, using “They, their, they’re” it would quickly become obvious that I don’t know their gender, and that upsets them. “Have you seen Andy’s eraser? If you see their eraser return it to them, please. They’re going to need it soon.” Does that sound at all natural to you?

Rebbel made me think of something though. What kind of question could I ask another student about Andy that would prompt them to use the correct pronoun while hiding my true motive for asking?

First day of class, ask that all of the boys stand. Then instruct the group that each individual announce his name then be seated. Repeat the process with the girls.

@Dutchess_III You’re making far too big a deal out of this but shoot down everyone who’s telling you different if you like. The kids are not going to even notice if you are saying “they” and “their” and they might as well get used to it. And your point about older kids is wrong too since some of them might be transgender. That’s why asking older kids what they prefer being called is done now in enlightened areas.

@janbb If using the wrong pronoun hurts a kid’s feelings, then I am NOT making too big of a deal in trying to find out how to tactfully find out their gender.
And for the second time, I told you I’m dealing with younger kids, preschool to 5th grade. Any older it really isn’t a problem.

As I’ve said three times now, @rebbel gave me a good idea. For the third time, what kind of question could I ask another student about “Andy,” that would prompt them to use the correct pronoun while hiding my true motive for asking?

I was talking about younger kids too and also pointing out that older kids could be transgender. I’m out.

Of course older kids can be transgender. What on earth does that have to do with anything at all?

To answer the Q directly, you can’t so you don’t. @rebbel, @ragingloli , and @janbb all covered it intelligently and reasonably. Not sure quite why you got your knickers in a twist.

If you could read you could see that their suggestions would still give away the fact that I don’t know what gender a child is and that would upset them. I’m trying to figure out how to find out without hurting their feelings.

I think asking a question of another student that would prompt them to use the pronoun for that person would be a good solution, but I’m trying to think of what kind of question would be good (for the 4th time.)

If you could read, you would understand my first sentence.

Well, you could ask another student if Andy has a penis or a vagina!

Do you not have a list?

So if a kid has the name of Andy, which is typically a boys name, and has short hair, I’m sure she has been referred to as he on a few occasions. So instead of letting her get all hurt over it, just say ok or yep that’s what I meant, and move on. Don’t let it become an issue and the child will forget it in a minute.

A list of what @ragingloli?

That’s really all I can do @chyna but it makes me feel bad that I caused the child to feel bad. I don’t linger on it,but I would like to avoid it. What kind of question could I ask another student about the student in question that would prompt them to use the pronoun?

A list of all your pupils.

Really, @janbb, would “penis” or “vagina” be age-appropriate?
How about “pee pee” and “hoo ha”?

In your example, I would just use “it” instead of “their eraser”.

In general, if you have the time, it might be cool to start the first lesson by having the kids introduce the student sitting next to them. As in “This is Andy, she likes horses and knows all about baseball.”

I usually find a list somewhere, @ragingloli, but it doesn’t tell me anything beyond their name and I don’t know which name goes to which student. Many of the names don’t specify gender any more either. Or how to pronounce the name.

THAT is a good idea @longgone. That is a very, very good idea! I love it!
(But you lost me on “it”....“It lost its eraser”?)

^ Sorry, total confusion on my part. I would say “Has anyone seen Andy’s eraser?”

Thanks!

“Hey, what name is Andy short for sweetie?” Hopefully the kid would have answered Andrew or Andrea or whatever it may be.

Right? ^^^^

It’s not your fault that Andy has a confusing name. Andy needs to suck it up. You need to let it go.

What does her name have to do with it? Andy is a cute name for a girl!

Ah, but you forget that the apostrophe ‘S’ is a contraction of the pronoun ‘his.’

Andy’s eraser literally means Andy his eraser.

What on earth are YOU talking about @Yellowdog?!

Apostrophe “S” (‘s) is a contraction of the pronoun ‘His.”

Robin’s sword means ‘Robin his sword.”

Yeah, archaic Old English. Not used since Elizabethan times

What about Hillary’s server? Where on earth did you learn that apostrophe “s” is restricted to males?

I am dying here!

Well, maybe she’s (she is) transgender?

I guess you can’t tell on the interwebs when someone is serious. But that IS the origin of good ole Apostrophe S

Wait wait! I bet YD is right. Why else would they use ‘s instead of ‘r or ‘g or anything other letter?
But now it’s just a possessive and has no gender association.

And what about her’s emails?

How about ‘The Emails of Hillary’.

Eh, sounds unnatural even as a discussion @Dutchess is right. No gender association now

I am just wondering if the fault entirely lies with us when the people themselves named their kids with obvious gender-specific names. If you know someone is “Michael” then you’ll use “him” to refer to the person, the same goes for “Andy”. Use gender neutral reference, it doesn’t matter not specifying your students’ exact gender (they won’t even care much about it, you just worry needlessly about it).

So you’re complaning about 20–30 students? I live in thrid-world country and I have to say that it’s typical here for classroom to hold around 50 students, even more so with public school (and many of the kids are rascals) so I would like you to feel a bit grateful in your situation.

Yes. Andy (Andie) is a cute name for a girl. It is also a boy’s name.

Its also the Lord’s name in the hymn ‘In The Garden’

“Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me, and he tells me I am his own. And the joy we share as we tarry there, no other will ever know.”

Dwerp @Yellowdog! : )

@Unofficial_Member it wasn’t the name. It was the cloths and the short hair cut. The name just added to my mistake when I referredto her. Everytyhing was suppose to be gender neutral, I suppose. I just used “he“and hurt her feelings.
Yes her parents named her. Dressed her for school.and chose her hair cut too for all I know.

Actually that was suppost to be three ‘andys’ I slipped up the third time and said ‘and he.’

@Unofficial_Member i wasn’t “complaining” about having 20 or 30 students. I was just trying to set the stage so people could understand that I don’t have all the time in the world to sus out everything I need to know about 1 child out of 30, as much as I’d like to.

It doesn’t really matter what gender, so you don’t need to wonder. The young adults that lived with me used “they”, which was very confusing to me. Teachers at some schools now use “E”.

Well, it matters to the kids.
We discussed using “they” above. It’s is most often used to refer to a group of people, not to one person. When you use it when referring to one child it doesn’t flow naturally. It just sounds off. It singles them out in a way. Most kids do not like being singled out.

You are a bit out of touch with the younger generation @Dutchess_III. They is very common to use now. It doesn’t flow naturally to you. It will not single the child out if you use it.

So they ^^ say I’m a bit out of touch but they don’t know enough to put quotation marks around the word “they” so that they manage to communicate that “they” is not supposed to be a logical part of the sentence. Why don’t they understand that?

Because, you know, being a grammar nazi really enhances the original point of the Q.

I am questioning whether ‘their’ really even IS inappropriate as a gender neutral pronoun, as it is usually used in the same contexts as the word “anyone” (which is certainly gender neutral)—and often in conjunction with it.

“Anyone who brings his own…” is somewhat stilted and awkward.
“Anyone bringing their own….” makes a lot more sense.

@Yellowdog Yes, it ahs become the accepted common usage gender neutral pronoun.

^^^agreed, I have seen it in a couple of renters that lived here.

Perhaps a direct question, “who prefers “he, who prefers “she”? Make it into a teachable moment.

Refer to them as “it.”
DRIVE the point HOME!

I don’t want to insult anyone @kritiper.

Sorta makes you wonder why we have so many well-established, commonly used gender pronouns anyway. Seems to me the only thing useful with it is that the messenger can convey that the unknown person is male or female. Or, maybe we can torment our enemies by calling them by the wrong gender.

We really don’t need gender pronouns at all. Just this late in the history of language, it will not change smoothly.

I don’t think that’s why they came into use (to designate whether or not the person is a he or a she.) They make conversation flow much more smoothly. Using “he” or “she” helps keep the characters that one is talking (or writing about) about straight.