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Unofficial_Member's avatar

Pet owners: will you keep a pet in the first place if you know that it can only live healthy with raw diet?

Asked by Unofficial_Member (5107points) December 28th, 2018

Let’s suppose that it can already be proven once and for all that feeding commercial pet food (especially kibbles) to pets can actually harm their health in the long run. This mean that there’s no more lazy habit of simply reaching for pet food bag and pour it on their bowls if you really care about your pets’ health. This mean that you’ll have to prepare the raw ingredients yourself in order to feed your pets.

What will you do? Will you still have a pet despite knowing what’s required for their healthy diet? Will you remain oblivious to this newfound revelation? Will you feed your pets commercial pet food anyway for convenience’s sake? If you want a reference, see this video (and its subsequent parts).

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38 Answers

KNOWITALL's avatar

I would definately keep them, no question. A little rice, chicken (or salmon, or cooked burger, steak, etc..) and veggies and they’re good, it’s not that hard, just prepare a little on the side for them when you cook your dinner, with less or no spices.

My dogs love cooked salmon and it’s really good for their coats. They each get a cup of food in morning and evening and are ‘supplemented’ with wholesome food.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Well, I can’t really fathom that since it isn’t true. I. Would put a lot more thought into adopting a pet for sure. Especially ones who had a variety of dietary requirements, like dogs, cats and rabbits.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I mean I would not have a dog and a cat and a rabbit and a hamster and a bird at the same time.

SavoirFaire's avatar

My pets already require a specialized diet, so it wouldn’t change anything. The video you linked is pure quackery, though, so I hope you haven’t drawn any serious conclusions from it.

I also hope you didn’t just ask this question as an excuse to share the video—not just because that’s against the rules, but because it would mean your intention was to spread misinformation.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

@SavoirFaire You can’t call label something as quackery just because you’re personally against/don’t believe in it. The information in the video is plausible and realistic. Please don’t say bad thing about something without giving an educated reasoning.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

What is wrong with kibbles? We started buying Kibbles n Bits for old Dakota because it’s softer food without being canned and her teeth aren’t so great.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

Kibbles aren’t soft, @Dutchess_lll , you’ll still have to add warm water to it to soften the texture if your dogs have weak teeth/trouble chewing. What’s actually wrong is the ingredients, as well as our understanding of the internal working of the dog itself. Most kibbles are loaded with things that aren’t even supposed to be primary healthy ingredient that a dog should consume, not to mention that manufacturers that substitute a major meat ingredients with plant-based ingredients are simply unethical as they’re unnatural for the dog. I understand that kibbles are cheap and convenient, but if we can give them more natural and better food why shouldn’t we? I also don’t believe that kibbles help cleaning your dog’s teeth very much, she can still eat natural food and have her teeth cleansed by chewing on toys if using tooth brush on her isn’t a regular practice.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Unofficial One way to tell if you dogs are not healthy is when they eat their feces. Generally change to high protein food or bagged food. The problem is some people think a bag of crappy Ol Roy is as good as NutriSource. Some just dont care.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

I am sure there are a lot of pet owners here in this site and they’re just purposely avoiding this question so that they can cling to their belief and not have to deal with the possible realization that they could lose the convenience of using commercial pet food for the sake of their pets’ natural wellbeing.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Unofficial Its one of the most lucrative markets in the US. There is a big movement to increase dog nutrition. So I would be surprised if many jellies didnt buy the good stuff for their pets already.

longgone's avatar

Yes. If anyone ever presents me with actual evidence that my pets need raw food to thrive, I will feed them fresh rabbits.

However, that video you linked to is very unconvincing, so I will happily stay with the pet food I’m buying now. Right now, my dog is doing great on a kibble made with duck and sweet potato. He is very much against your suggestion to make dogs fast, by the way.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Unofficial_Member “You can’t call label something as quackery just because you’re personally against/don’t believe in it.”

When did I say I was against it? If you want to put your pet on a raw diet, go ahead. I have no problem with it, and I have no reason to believe that it would be unhealthy. But there is no reliable scientific data to support the notion that a raw diet is the only way to keep a pet healthy.

“The information in the video is plausible and realistic.”

Plausibility is the standard for a hypothesis, not a conclusion. And “realistic” seems to be nothing more than an empty buzzword here. In any case, the information presented in the video is not plausible. I’m not going to do a point-by-point refutation of an 11 minute video that cannot even go to the trouble of properly documenting its sources, but here are a two key points.

(1) The video starts off quite wrong by asserting that “one point that no one’s going to argue about is that for optimal health to occur, animals must consume the foods they were designed to eat.” This is either trivial or false. It’s trivial if all it means is “a healthy diet is part of being optimally healthy.” It’s false if it means “for a contemporary member of a species to be healthy, it must eat the same foods that its ancestors ate while its species was evolving.” Malnutrition and food scarcity are constant problems in nature, and no species evolved under wholly ideal conditions. It does not follow from this that modern animals should only consume foods from sources that were available to their ancestors.

This also raises the question of which ancestors we should be taking as representative. Cats and dogs have been domesticated from a variety of species, and their lineages are not always well known. But given that different potential ancestors had wildly different diets, anyone who thinks that animals must eat the same foods their ancestors ate is left with the nearly impossible task of tracking down not just what kind of canine or feline their pet is descended from, but which region of the world their specific ancestors came from (keeping in mind that many species used to be far more widespread than they are today). It gets even more complicated when we get into other types of pets, such as birds, lizards, and rodents.

Furthermore, Becker concludes from her (not actually inarguable) assertion that “carnivorous animals must [therefore] eat fresh whole prey for optimal health.” But this does not follow at all. The digestive tract does not distinguish between eating a whole cow and only part of one, except to the extent that eating a whole cow would be enough food to kill the vast majority of domesticated animals. For another, the hierarchical feeding habits of some species means that many individual members did not get to eat their prey at peak freshness. In short, the supposedly inarguable foundation of the video rests on complete ignorance of the actual evolutionary history of the animals it discusses.

(2) The only attempt at providing a scientific basis for the claims made in the video comes in the form of a reference to the Pottenger cat study. Becker does not cite the actual study (despite the fact that going back to the primary source is standard scientific practice), but instead cites this write up of the study—a write up that ultimately undermines her claims. The author, Guillermo Díaz (who, again, is Becker’s own source), summarizes the flaws in Pottenger’s study this way:

“There were no good scientific controls. All of the cats were donated and Dr. Pottenger didn’t know the thorough history of each one. Most of them were strays, which can lead to statistical errors. Concerning the food: the composition of the diet was not constant during the ten year period, because of its origin, it varied in freshness and quality.”

Let’s look at that last bit: the composition of the diet was not constant despite the fact that this was a diet study. I am not trying to denigrate Pottenger here. His work can be valuable even if it is not complete. But let’s not pretend that we can draw broad conclusions from a poorly controlled diet study that didn’t even manage to keep the factor being studied—the diet—constant throughout the experiment. Let us also look at what has been learned about nutrition (both human and feline) in the 80 years since the study was done. As Díaz notes, all of Pottenger’s findings are consistent with a taurine deficiency.

Though he could only conjecture about the specifics at the time, it turns out that what Pottenger actually discovered is that certain ways of processing food (e.g., cooking or pasteurization) can remove nutrients (e.g., taurine) that may be essential to some of its consumers (e.g., cats). This is valuable information, to be sure. But it has also been taken into account already: taurine has been added to pet food for decades.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

GA.
Also how would we even know if a pet’s diet was unhealthy?

Unofficial_Member's avatar

@SavoirFaire First, let me say that I appreciate that you took your time to give your own analysis. However, what you said is not incontestable.

“It’s trivial if all it means is “a healthy diet is part of being optimally healthy.”
How could that be trivial? What your pets eat can affect their body in the long run and is definitely an important factors (among other major factors) that contribute to an animal’s optimal health.

“for a contemporary member of a species to be healthy, it must eat the same foods that its ancestors ate while its species was evolving”
Despite the nature present various dynamics to the ancestors of dogs, the internal disgestion system of a dog still remain more or less the same as its ancestors, in other words, wolves. Designed primarily to digest meat and other body parts from their prey, this internal system is not suitable for vegetation processing, unlike true herbivores such as cows and sheeps. Typical commercial pet food have loads of plant-based sources to substitute what your carnivorous pets should get from prey animal.

From what species the animal originated from is not that consequential as most dogs and cats are actually the sub species of one or two original species of their wild counterparts (despite some taxonomist make distinct naming) so it’s easier to pinpoint who is the exact species that shares the closest DNA similarities with their domesticated counterparts, the same goes for the region. You seem to misunderstood the idea of “eat the same foods their ancestors ate”. It refers to source of the food, which is prey animal, it doesn’t mean that just because wolves eat Elk as their major prey our dogs must also eat Elk, it simply means that we can give them other prey species for them to consume that fulfill the same meat criteria a prey species like Elk could provide. Since BARF diet is mentioned, we are limiting our discussion to related animals such as Dogs and Cats.

The digestive tract does not distinguish the between animals’s body parts. Yes, I agree. We’re not forced to feed our pets cow’s brain and tails. What is sufficient is some parts of prey animal that contribute to the necessary nutritional requirements that our pet need. As for the freshness, this is essential in raw diet since the fresher the ingredients the better the quality, which also works for most other things. It’s an option that we can choose. Give our pets spoiled meat or fresh meat, even if they provide the same nutrition they will differ in quality.

I agree that the composition of the diet wasn’t constant in the study. But how inconsistent the diet throughout the studies, in term of percentage? This will affect the possible discrepancy resulting from the inconsistencies. Small and less frequent inconsistencies are more tolerable in scientific studies and not necessarily associated with failed result, all they need is a bit more further testing and revisions (real testimonies from BARF proponents that we have nowadays can even serve as a type of small-scale alternative studies to complement this). I don’t blame them for the lack of technology, test subjects, and financial foundation at that point in history.

I agree that certain components in nutrition have been better studied nowadays and being added in to commercial pet food. The digestibility, quality, and amount of sources of the ingredients for these processed food are still questionable, however. Pet food manufacturers tend to care more about making the most profit with the least honest investments.

I am more concern about the amount of junk plant-based ingredients that the manufacturers put in commercial pet food to substitute nutritional elements that your pets should get more meat-based sources. What’s natural is better than mass-produced processed food. We can educate ourselves regarding proper nutritional requirements for our pets, choose quality ingredients ourselves (rather than solely relying on company’s claim and credibility), and create the most approptiate and natural food for the sake our pets’ health. There are more and more testimonies from real people that have realized the benefits of BARF diet and many of them have admitted that their pets that used to have deplorable health conditioned have transitioned in to exceptionally healthy pets after they decided to practice BARF diet. We shouldn’t turn our eyes away from possible better alternative and label it as a type of snake oil just because of our lack of knowledge or skepticism.

@Dutchess_lll You can eventually tell by looking at your pets’ overall wellbeing and their vet tests after prolong feeding of a particular type of diet.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Cats are obligate carnivores. They can not digest any vegetables.
Dogs can eat, and digest, a pretty good number of veggies like carrots, corn, potatoes. Meat makes up most of their diet though.

I’m pretty sure the general health and life span of our domesticated pets far exceeds those of their wild ancestors.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

We mostly see the wolves taking down deer and other animals and ripping into their innards because who wants to watch 10 minutes of wolves eating wild tubers?!

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

“for a contemporary member of a species to be healthy, it must eat the same foods that its ancestors ate while its species was evolving”

The ability to live on a wide variety of foods is an evolutionary advantage. So whatever you want to believe is THE food they ate is just projecting your beliefs onto history.

I know lots of dogs who lived to old age on store-bought food with no health problems. I’ve known one dog who ate nothing but raw chicken and turkey parts, bones included. There is no single one appropriate diet for animals (including humans).

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Dakota, our 15 year old geriatric German Shepherd, who, by the way, has lived twice as long as the average wild wolf, is failing. At the moment she is showing signs of dehydration. I figure grocery store bought beef and canned chicken broth might be her Pedialyte. She is taking in more fluid since we started that.
Anyone want to contest this idea?

Unofficial_Member's avatar

@Dutchess_lll Here is the testimony that show the reverse of your situation. Moreover, You can’t just abruptly change to Raw diet right of the batt, there are appropriate step by step way and procedures so that your dog’s internal digestion system (which was previously contaminated by junky commercial food) can be reintroduced back to its natural digestion system and benefit from raw diet.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I haven’t listened to the video. It would be rude in my current situation so I am not sure what I said that you’re responding to.

At any rate I have no intention of putting her on a raw diet. She’s dying and I’m just trying to keep her comfortable.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I looked at it. “Why vets discourage raw diets. They think the owners are stupid”?

Unofficial_Member's avatar

^^ The video shows a situation where a dog that is having a long term illness and the commercial pet food (suggested by vets) didn’t help/only worsening its condition. After switching to raw diet the dog has transformed in to a much healthier creature free from its past condition (which could’ve easily attributed to prolong commercial pet food consumption).

I am not forcing you to switch to raw diet, @Dutchess_lll . I just want you to learn more about what’s more natural for dogs and realize the benefits your dog can gain from it.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

My dog is at the end of her long and healthy life. Old age can never be a “past condition.”
Both of my dogs were healthy dogs. Well until Dutchess got throat cancer a year ago. I don’t think that had anything to do with her diet.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Now I’m back on my lap top. What part did you disagree with me on @Unofficial_Member ? That domesticated animals live much longer and overall are healthier than wild animals? That dogs and wolves can, and do, eat some vegetation? Or something else?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III I’m sorry she’s not doing well. Hugs.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Thanks. She’s suddenly really fine today, for an old girl. But I’m hand delivering her food and water so she doesn’t have to walk much. Her poops have been so dry…so maybe her biggest problem recently has been dehydration? She seemed to be drinking water just fine, but we’re supplementing it with beef and chicken broth to encourage her to drink even more, plus get other nutrients in her. (Wild wolves don’t get this kind of treatment. They just DIE!) She’s even making it outside to pee and poop. Sometimes. At least when she craps in the house we can check the consistency. Just tryin’ to look on on the bright side, SMH.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Oh good. I’ve heard that some dogs really enjoy beef or chicken boullion frozen in ice cube trays. Not sure if she’d be interested, but any way to get that extra liquid in.

My vet said as long as they eat, drink and potty, you shouldn’t get too worried. :( Bless her heart.

Dutchess_III's avatar

She’s not really into eating. :( We picked up some of those expensive stew things for dogs and put a spoonful on top of her dry food. She eats the stew and a few bites of the dry food that way. I’m afraid to give her too much of that, or canned food….she’ll develop diarrhea and THAT is a nightmare with such a geriatric dog. Who needs a roomba to spread shit though the whole house?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III I get it. I usually give my dogs (as they approach the end) scrambled eggs. They seem easy to digest for them, but I’m sure every dog is different.

Definately no to the diarrhea….!

Dutchess_III's avatar

That’s a good thought! Yes! I also make this rice and egg and chicken dish for her when her bowls get wonky but I stop after they get normal.
Scrambled eggs is a very, very good idea. Thank you. I will go make some now.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I made a bowl full for her. Letting them cool. She will love it!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III I’m a sucker for aging dogs. 100%, won’t even argue the point.

I hope she loves it! :)

Dutchess_III's avatar

Oh my goodness yes she loved it. I cooked up 4 for her. She’ll get 4 a day from now on. I used to not worry about dogs not eating. Like kids, I figure they’ll eat if they get hungry. This is different. I’m ready to bribe and beg! YES I WILL BUY YOU AN EGG MCMUFFIN!!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III I’m soooo glad. Well if she likes scrambled, you may try boiled.

My dogs go goo goo for boiled eggs. YES, she deserves a McMuffin!! haha

Dutchess_III's avatar

She’s gonna start farting all over! I just know it! And you’ve not smelled anything like Dakota farts!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess haha, well theres that.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

I’m saying that natural diet is more beneficial for dogs than commercial pet food that’s loaded with unnecessary plant-based ingredients, @Dutchess_III. In a gist, natural diet is always the best choice for your pets’ wellbeing. We give them what mother nature intended for them.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, mother nature didn’t intend for humans to eat cooked meats or vegetables, either.

Humans do a hell of a lot of things Mother Nature didn’t intend for us to do. It doesn’t mean it’s all bad.

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