Shouldn't it be acceptable to act natural instead of acting in a professional way?

I don’t agree with you on this one. If a meeting is called, its usually important to listen and focus on the meeting. Painting your nails is for a time you are not being paid for your time imo. If they are paying, you do what they want you to do.

That being said, interacting with clients, they often do like you to act natural but there are rules, like you dont talk politics or religion, etc..

No.
Doing those things (eating, painting your nails, etc) are not professional because they are distractions from the work at hand. There is a lot more to being professional than a certain level of appearance.
“Multi-tasking” is not really doing many things at the same time, it’s mentally jumping from task to task without giving full attention to each one. https://info.umkc.edu/unews/multitasking-or-multi-distracting/

I don’t want the engineer who designs my office building to be painting her nails during the meeting on structural integrity during hurricanes, and I don’t want my doctor shopping online for shoes while discussing my cancer treatment.
Every example you gave is of something that could/should have been easily done at another time.

Absolutely not. Business meetings are to conduct business. A person can plan meals around a business meeting. They are not going to starve to death. And doing your nails is the most unprofessional thing I can think of. It shows a lack of respect for the meeting and for those attending. Nail polish has an oder that most people don’t want to smell.

In fact, @Unofficial_Member, go see the Hair Salon Q in General to understand how unprofessional behavior can affect business.

@KNOWITALL But so long as the person listen to you during the meeting there shouldn’t be a problem, right? I mean, other people during the meeting could’ve easily use their phone secretly for texting, daydreaming, etc while pretending to listen to person who’s speaking. I was imagining corporate meeting here but I believe it should also work the same way for personal meeting like the situation you mentioned.

@canidmajor I’m thinking that it’ll be an ideal world if we can all understand and accept others’ natural habit and desire that have no significant effect on our life. So long as your office building is done splendidly and so long as the doctor does his job there shouldn’t be a problem if they do something else during their meeting with you, right? If there’s no problem then it’s not necessary for us make a fuss out of it. Just because you don’t like to see that doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

@chyna Yes, I agree, business meeting is to conduct business, but there’s nothing wrong if you perform menial task at the same time as long as you can do the business without any problem. The end justifies the means. I think the other person is also capable of respect, to respect other people’s natural habit and personal desire that don’t even affect the performance of their job. I can’t believe there would be someone who would look down one someone that is hungry and getting sustenance while conducting a business with them. I believe good people are capable of understanding that. If nail polish really bother the person then they have a right to protest (I was imagining the situation where we all sit too far apart to be able to smell each others) but I can still do my make up, right? They have no excuse to protest just because they don’t like to see me doing that.

@canidmajor I’m sure it will only affect high-standard people that are incapable of empathy. Most people I know are very understanding.

Oh, do read the link. It’s not just whether I “like” to see it or not, but it’s about divided attention.

And really, it has nothing to do with empathy.

No, a meeting is for conducting business. Focus on the business at hand. Save the personal grooming for your own time.

@canidmajor I read it. It has a undefinitive section about it. One person said it’s impossible to multitask, the other person said it’s possible but only up to a point and the heavier the task the more difficult it is to do it well. Well, my examples were light tasks that don’t consume much brain power, not to mention that it won’t affect the business in any significant way. What could happen? People die? Wrong decision making? No. What is happening is other people’s desire that someone should act in a way that is pleasing to their eyes.

@Darth_Algar I can still focus while doing other menial task that won’t effect anybody. It’s like it’s wrong to do this openly but people who can do it secretly (texting, daydreaming, etc) aren’t blamed.

You seem to have already made up your mind about this and just want to argue with other people’s answers. Go ahead and clip your toenails at the next meeting you attend and see how well that goes over. In the meantime, I’m not following this question, which is really not a question, but your opinion.

What @chyna said. You’re not really asking a Q, you just want agreement. This is a pattern for you.

I’m done.

I think that there are times for informality and times to be more professional. In a meeting, such as was given as an example, let’s think about how it looks. What if you call a meeting because you have something important to discuss and as you are talking, someone starts painting their nails, someone else starts eating, someone else strikes up a conversation with their neighbor. Who is giving you any respect at all? How does that come across? You might as well say, well hey…I’m tired, my body is telling me I should take a nap! and just go to sleep. What’s the difference?
Unless there are specific rules in the meeting permitting things like eating, that should be avoided. I have been in meetings that last hours and they have had food and drink available with the notice up front that if you get hungry to help yourself. In a situation like that, it would be acceptable because that was one of the rules of that meeting and therefore not rude or disrespectful.
Let’s take it to a personal level. What if you were speaking to your spouse and in mid-sentence they just turned and walked away because they felt they wanted to go use the bathroom? Would that make you feel that anything you had to say was important? Would you see it as rude?

@chyna and @canidmajor I think you both can’t take disagreement in a discussion.

@seawulf575 The fact that some meetings allow you to do that means that they respect people’s basic needs (like eating and drinking) so there should be no excuse for our basic needs to be denied/looked down in other meetings as well. As if you’re deaf when you’re eating, as if your eating has any real significance to the one who is talking. It should be a universal rule and tacit understanding that people should be allowed to fulfill their basic needs and desire in every situation as long as what they do won’t affect people around them. Napping can affect the meeting as it delays it the progress, but eating/painting nails won’t have any effect on the meeting. I guess this is a case by case situation.

If my spouse really have to do it then, of course, I’ll more than happy to allow it. What if I were then one who’s been holding the pee and can’t wait anymore? I would’ve used the bathroom right away. We can still continue our conversation after he’s done with fulfilling his basic need, it’s not the end of the world, and I’m not offended at all.

@Unofficial_Member No, it’s not okay. I am a manager and if I call a meeting, I expect you to listen and pay attention to me and my words. Looking at your cell unobtrusively does happen, but it is still rude and unprofessional to many people.

Now most meetings have food or snacks, and we get them before the meeting and sit down and quietly snack if we like. If you need to use the restroom, you go before the meeting and slip out quietly if the meeting runs long and you need to go again. Most adults do not need to do this in a meeting that’s an hour long.

@Unofficial_Member Look do whatever the fuck you want and pay the consequences you face. Nobody agrees with you and I expect your management doesn’t either. So go your own way and live your life. My expectation is that you’ll lose a few jobs along the way.

By the way, there is nothing natural about having to paint your nails or put on makeup during a meeting.

@KNOWITALL Now that is a very understanding approach you have there. Surely you won’t be mad if I chew a candy while listening to you, right? I’ll listen and still get it done. Looking ‘unprofessional’ doesn’t mean you’re a bad/unproductive person, right? Rules shouldn’t be so strict that it put barriers on people’s personal needs. Flexibility bring happiness to many people.

@janbb Oh don’t you worry. I have done that (but not often), in fact many people here have been doing that for as long as I could remember and there’s clearly nobody fussy enough to make a big issue out of it. Most people here are warm and understanding toward other people’s basic needs and desire, what to remember is that as long as what you do doesn’t affect the meeting it shouldn’t be a problem. There’s no point to keep a professional image when clearly basic needs and desire are everyone’s fundamental priority. If people are happy-go-lucky instead of being so strict in behavior we all will have better lives.

I believe in the military they have a saying: “When in command, COMMAND!”
It is much more presentable to act accordingly when required and/or expected.

@kritiper SIR, YES SIR! (While brushing my hair).

@Unofficial_Member As you were.

@kritiper Lemme put on some lotion first.

@Unofficial_Member every meeting I have seen like that, as I said, were marathons. They do that…offer food and drink, because as you say they recognize basic biological needs. But not all meetings are marathons. In fact those are the exception instead of the standard. Most times businesses feel you can sit for an hour or two and pay attention and participate as opposed to letting other things distract you. But I noticed that you ignored the comment of sleep I made. Isn’t that a basic biological need? Isn’t it something people want to do? So given your viewpoint, why would it be wrong to allow people to fall asleep if they want to?

As for the walking away in mid-sentence there is another aspect you aren’t looking at, and one that is key to this discussion. If you were the one that had to pee, either when talking to your wife or in a meeting, would you just turn and walk away or would you say something first? I have been in meetings when someone would say something like “This meeting has been going for awhile. Can we take a break for bathroom and stretching before we continue?” The same applies to talking with your wife. You would say something to her to get her consent prior to just walking away. It is polite and respectful. When you do things like whip out a noisy bag of chips or start polishing your nails, you are not showing that respect. You are sending the message that your desires are far more important that whomever is speaking or has called the meeting. You become a distraction to yourself and others. When you are in a meeting, they are most effective if there are ground rules established up front and everyone adheres to them.

If you can’t go one hour without eating there’s something medically wrong with you. See a doctor. Otherwise there’s no reason you cannot eat before or after that meeting.

@seawulf575 I said that napping (or sleeping) will affect the meeting, therefore, people have a real excuse to go against it, unlike other menial tasks/behaviors that has no consequence to the meeting. To tell you the truth, I have seen people sleeping on a big, long seminars, those people even sat on the front row so clearly the speaker would’ve seen them but nothing’s said or done, now I have seen this happens many times so I can conclude that at the end of the day any speaker will have to understand people’s basic needs instead of getting pissed (as nobody knows what cause their sleepiness. For all we know they could’ve overworked yesterday and didn’t get enough sleep. As good person we have to understand their situation and give leeway, right? Remember, we, ourselves, could’ve easily ended up in the same situation).

For the pee issue I’ll say that “I’ll need to pee“and go away without needing any permission from the person. I’ll quickly return to continue the conversation anyway. There’s no way I’ll require an agreement just for me to pee. It’s a cruelty to force someone not to pee. In a meeting, I normally will just do my stuff, if people glance at me with nosy look on their faces then I’ll simply say “excuse me, I’m hungry. (Opening the bag of chips) Would you like some?” I won’t pop the bag so loudly as to purposely attract attention, however, I’ll still eat the chips if I’m really hungry or feel like to eat it. The same goes for polishing my nails, if nobody complain then I will deem my action is condoned. If the speaker personally ask me not to do that then I will comply but if that is not the case then I’ll think nobody would be bothered and keep doing that. I think people need to understand as well as respect each others at the same time. There should be a good balance to it.

@Darth_Algar I’m not saying that is purposely done. Of course I can eat before or after the meeting but what if I’m in the situation where I missed both my breakfast and lunch during the meeting? Getting hungry could affect people’s concentration. Surely people will understand if I tell them the reason. It’s better to have someone eating in the meeting but listening to you than someone who is starving and have a hard time digesting what you say in the meeting.

”@KNOWITALL Now that is a very understanding approach you have there. Surely you won’t be mad if I chew a candy while listening to you, right? I’ll listen and still get it done. Looking ‘unprofessional’ doesn’t mean you’re a bad/unproductive person, right? Rules shouldn’t be so strict that it put barriers on people’s personal needs. Flexibility bring happiness to many people.”

In the US, in my area, none of the things you mention are acceptable adult professional behavior. Your comfort and happiness are not my concern, only the work getting done well and correctly and efficiently. You are there to make me/the company money by doing a job, so more than likely I would fire you.

If you can’t pay attention for an hour to me, your boss, then how can you pay attention to your job or a client? I would perceive you as selfish and lazy. Sorry, that’s the truth.

Your personal needs should be handled on your personal time. Flexibility is a good thing, and many mgrs and bosses try to be a bit flexible, if you need to go to the doctor, or pick up your dog at the groomer, or have a sick child, but nail polish or make up or being lazy is not a good use of flex time imo.

@Unofficial_Member

You know you have a full work day ahead. You can take a break to eat at some point during that?

I disagree with you too. And if you missed breakfast and lunch then you can just wait for dinner. Eating in front of a room full of people is simply rude. You aren’t going to die because you missed a couple of meals.

@Darth_Algar Like I said before, this is the situation that I somehow missed the food due to other circumstances. This thing happened, unplanned, and could happen regardless of whether or not I know there’s a full work day ahead. Incidents could happen so suddenly and prevent me from getting sustenance during the day. I am sure genuine people will understand the situation and allow me to eat if I give my reasoning.

@Dutchess_III My, what a cold word you utter. You’re suggesting I should prolong my suffering from hunger while I can satiate it. I can also say that people aren’t going to die just because someone else is eating in the room. As for whether or not it’s rude it’ll have to depend on each participants in the meeting. What’s worse is that people that aren’t able to empathize or understand other people’s situation and label everything as rude just because they don’t like to see it.

I didn’t say they were going to die. I said it is rude to eat in front of other people, unless you have enough to share. Maybe they’re hungry too but have the manners not to eat in front of everyone…and there you are, eating your Big Mac and fries, apple pie and slurping on a chocolate shake.

I also can not fathom how going half a day without eating could be construed in any way as “suffering.” Mildly inconvenienced, maybe. But certainly not “suffering.”

The big differences in opinions here (OP vs Respondents) suggests to me that there might be a cultural difference (in etiquette?) is going on?

@rebbel Yes, I agree. She is in Indonesia. Must be very different.

Maybe she should ask questions like this:
“In America (or your part of the world) would this behavior be acceptable?”

Some of her questions are perceived as offensive (seemingly) because it sounds like she is saying the behavior she finds acceptable there, should be acceptable everywhere, which is definately not true.

While at work, you do what your boss wants you to do as long as it’s within your job description, it’s not illegal and it doesn’t harm anyone. So if your boss says don’t paint your nails in the meeting or don’t eat at your desk or don’t look at your phone while you’re at the reception desk, you don’t do it. That’s really the bottom line.

@Dutchess_III My response regarding people aren’t going to die was targeted as a comparative statement and counterbalance for what you said that I won’t die just because I missed my breakfast and lunch. Both me and other people won’t die from eating situation in a room. And I don’t eat sloppily, loudly, or even fast food. It’ll be a quick and neat meal so I can fulfill my need and continue with the task at hand. It’s not too much to handle!

@rebbel What @KNOWITALL said is right. I am from Indonesia. The meetings here that I’ve attended were full of warm, friendly, and understanding people that if you haven’t eaten you can eat, the members even like to go out and buy food/snacks to bring back to the meeting to share and eat with everybody. We’re not cruel people that force people to keep a good image on the surface while they’re actually hungry behind the it. Who knows that people in Western countries are so against it. I believe at the end of the day basic needs and desire are still more important than keeping a good image.

@jca2 That is the point. So long as nobody complains about the behavior I mentioned they’re as good as condoned by all people in the meeting. I absolutely wouldn’t go against my superior, but thankfully we have understanding people here that won’t whip other for something as simple as fulfilling basic needs.

@Unofficial_Member: Try it and see what happens. It could be interesting. Let us know!

@jca2 Oh I have eaten during the meeting several times. As for the nail polish, it was done by my friend in the meeting, and nobody complain as she can multitask while doing that. I have seen videos about people act in ‘unprofessional’ way during formal/public situations and people wrote rude and careless comments. I never think of it as unprofessional, but rather, an honest manifestation of desire to fulfill basic needs. People are so judgemental these days and won’t understand other’s situation anymore.

If nobody says anything it doesn’t necessarily mean they condone it. Why can’t you grab a bag of chips before the meeting? Why do you need to eat during the meeting?

And people are not nearly as judgemental “these days” as they have been in the past.

I think if you want to do things like eat during a meeting and nobody says you shouldn’t, then don’t continue to discuss it here, just do it.

^^ Because I can, because nobody will make a fuss about it, and because I won’t be the only person to commit what you regard as unprofessional behavior. If people complain (they also need to have a right for that) then I won’t do it but if nobody complain then I don’t want to be shamed for fulfilling my basic needs and desire. Really? A big fuss just because of someone eat in the meeting room? Nobody try to become an etiquette expert.

@jca2 What’s wrong is people and observants who look down on people who did things like this. I find that their snobbish high-standard pespective on life is completely insufferable while they comment on others’ behaviors.

No no no. No need for you to even bring it up here if you can do it, have been doing it and nobody has complained. Just do it.

You’re beginning to sound like a troll UM. You want to do it, do it. It’s not done in the States so let’s drop the subject.

@jca2 It’s good to let people know the reality of the world. I am happy I have no problems with that, however, there are still people that lack the understanding or the willingness to understand situation from different angle. This discussion is to ask people about understanding, tolerance, and acceptance of natural and simple behaviors.

@janbb it’s not all about me. I simply use my experience as examples. If people in States really act in… such a infallible way then I’ll just sigh let this be thread of disappointment of human nature.

How about if I wrote “Why can’t I be on Facebook, Amazon and Fluther all day, and take a two hour lunch?” If my boss doesn’t mind my doing it, why would I even discuss it?

It makes no sense. I agree with @janbb it looks like you’re looking for an argument.

If you can do something, and you are doing it, and your job doesn’t mind, then keep doing it and who cares what people think.

@jca2 Alright. Perhaps I really shouldn’t care about what other people think. Perhaps I had given too much thinking about others’ ignorant comment toward ‘unprofessional’ behaviors on the internet. Maybe it’s useless for me to ask anything about it if people here are so deadset about such a thing.

No, it shouldn’t.

The stresses of the workplace require whatever cushion civility provides. Conventions of acceptable conduct protect our nerves from others’ boorish, disgusting, and infantile behavior. Just about no “natural behavior” belongs in the public spaces of a business office.

Everything that @Unofficial Member has described is unprofessional because those behaviors are distracting to the speakers, and the employees who need to listen to the speakers.

Just because no one complains (in front of you) that doesn’t mean that no one is upset or distracted by the behavior. Most people at a job would not stand up in the middle of a meeting and tell you to knock it off (the eating, the crunching, the fumbling with food wrappers, the popping of gum, the smell of nail polish, the fact that you are not giving your full attention) because that would also be unprofessional.

What is more likely to happen is that your bosses, or other co-workers, would discuss your impropriety with the supervisor, privately.

There are degrees of appropriate behavior in all sorts of different social, and work situations. When people in a particular society grow up, and then become adults, they generally learn these rules.

There are some people who do not learn the rules, for several reasons.

Sometimes the parents or the teachers fail to teach the children the rules. We all know some of those people and they are generally described as being “selfish” or being “boors” or being “jerks” or “assholes”.

Sometimes people don’t, or rather can’t learn/understand the rules because they have some type of learning disability, or mental condition that prevents it. Those folks generally have to be supervised or guided more carefully, so that they can work with others more harmoniously.

Some people fail to learn the rules, because they are self-described “anarchists” or people who don’t believe the rules apply to them, or people who don’t care how their behavior impacts other people.

Again, there are different degrees of acceptable behavior in different situations. Expectations of behavior are different when you are at a ball game, a church, at an informal work meeting, a formal work meeting, having dinner in a friend’s home, having dinner at the home of people you have never met, at a wedding, at a funeral, and a school function, at a rock concert, at a symphony, at a fancy high end restaurant, at a fast food restaurant, at a campground, at a fancy hotel, in a bar, in a family style restaurant, in a strip joint, at a child’s birthday party, or wherever you might find yourself. You adjust your behavior, accordingly. If you don’t, you are likely to suffer the conseqences, which could mean being asked to leave, having the rules explained to you, having to pay a fine, or getting fired from a job.

I think we shouldn’t comment any more on this. Let @Unofficial_Member do as she pleases and let the chips fall where they may.

@Unofficial_Member So when you say we are judgemental and ignorant, we are trying to give you our opinion on your questions from our own viewpoint, not YOUR Indonesian viewpoint or culture.

Maybe try to ask questions about America or the rest of the world instead?

I think this is all a misunderstanding and maybe there’s a language barrier that is being mistaken. I truly don’t think you are intentionally trying to start a fight or offend anyone, nor do I think anyone here is trying to judge your behavior by Indonesian standards.

It’s a natural way for human beings to act a certain way to show respect.

@KNOWITALL Sure, people can look at the situation from different angle but it seems that many people here tend to give comments without understanding and empathy toward other people’s situation. The discussion actually started on Youtube about people making rude comments toward situation like this and I brought the issue here and thought that people here would be more open-minded to discuss it but it seems that I’m mistaken. Just look at some of the terms people here used to call others that act in different way than them, they said “boorish”, “infantile”, “disgusting”, “jerks”, “assholes”, etc. As if tolerance doesn’t exist anymore, as if averting your eyes toward toward things you don’t like to see (that isn’t necessarily wrong) couldn’t be done anymore. This justifies my perception that people who say that and look down on others are high-standards snobs. Perhaps many Westerners are like this.

I have a feeling we have a lot of Americans here. Targeting the question towards Americans probably won’t make much difference.

I have no intention to offend people here, of course. I do apologize if I have offended anyone here by asking this question. I appreciate all of their comments even though I rebut their perceptions. It was naive of me to think that I can make people understand behavior that they deem as bad but not actually wrong. Goodness, I guess the best saying in this situation is “Live and let live”. I’ll leave it at that.

Doing what comes natural like doing your nails during a meeting? What kind of meeting and what would it be about? Even if you can still listen what if it’s distracting to others?

^^ It’s also natural for others to understand others’ basic needs and desire that don’t even affect the outcome of a meeting. I’ll agree that if doing nails is too smelly for others then perhaps it shouldn’t be done even though I myself have no problem when someone else is doing that in the room so long as they can still listen and contribute to the meeting. Meetings here have friendly, and very tolerating atmosphere, and at times it can be considered a formal meeting between members to hear, review, and give contribution (not a must, only if you have one) toward general operation of the business. As if others couldn’t avert their eyes and ignore the situation they don’t like to see, if it really bothers them. Regardless, I’ll leave this discussion as it is as I feel that it’s getting more volatile the more I discuss about something.

But it does affect the outcome of a meeting.

And if everyone acts naturally including the speaker who thinks he talks better in the nude, there goes the meeting.

The point is looking at some forms of proper decorum as stifling and Machiavellian seems to be quite a stretch.

^^ I’m sure there are corporate rules about proper attire but there’s no definition that prevent someone from eating, texting, etc during the meeting. It think it should be a case by case scenario, however, in general people should have good understanding and tolerance toward others.

@Unofficial Member why not invite your favorite catcallers to come in and holler, “Nice Boobs!” at the 18 or 65 year old receptionist? Why not let all of the men at the company walk around in their underwear, scratching their balls, or jacking off? Why not let the women pull out their tampons? Why not allow everyone to make a stinking feast of fish, and cheese, and sauerkraut, and kimchi, and balut? Why not allow folks to stream rap music, or bluegrass, or bagpipe music, or soap operas into the boardroom? Why not allow people to brush their teeth, or buy stuff on Amazon, or read the latest bestseller, or dig toe jam out of their toenails, or run the garbage disposal, or have sex? All of those activities are perfectly normal.

Do you understand that “normal activities” do not necessarily conform to, or equate with appropriate office behaviors?

So…you’re saying we aren’t answer your question right @Unofficial_Member? Or are you saying that it’s wrong for all of us to disagree with you about how to act in a professional setting?

Wait…have you ever even been in a professional setting?

My basic need is to urinate. My desire is to urinate on a tree or bush, like a dog marking my turf. So why shouldn’t I be able to fulfill my need and desire during the meeting by walking over to the corner and urinating on that potted plant? I can’t still listen just fine and if anyone is bothered by it they can look away, right?

Thank you @Darth_Algar. Or spit. Or scratch my genital. Or pick my nose. All perfectly natural actions.

I do understand that sometimes rule makers could be perceived as going too far.

I read years ago that in Singapore citizens were banned from spitting in public and were required to smile on foreigners. My memory of that article might be rusty though.

From the POV of a foreigner I would appreciate not seeing someone spit in public but a mass of pedestrians smiling at me at the same time will freak me out. Lol

If you try to paint your nails in an enclosed room that I am in during a meeting I will come over and pick that shit up and throw it away in the bathroom. That stuff will stink up an entire room even with windows open.

I think I would like to hum, clip coupons, and use my blowdryer.

What would come most natural to me is to Fluther or Facebook, rather than sit in a boring old meeting.

What would be most natural to me is not being in the meeting at all. I’d rather not even be at work either hahahaha.

I would like to conduct a cooking demonstration, add movies to my Netflix queue, and trim my bangs.

It appears somewhat to me that the question should more accurately be “is it alright to act like a complete uncivilized Neanderthal at all times, in any or all situations, if one feels like it?”
We are or should be civilized, and should act so if for no other reason than to appear civilized. It’s what civilized society expects.

pooot!!