What is driving so many to becoming anti vaxxers?

The unfounded rumors that vaccines cause autism.

Misinformation. Ignorance.

The fact that “contrarianism” is now a high virtue.

It is selfishness and comes from disregarding the concept of the public good. I see it as part of the mood of irrationality sweeping the western world where facts have become what you choose to believe.

What do you think of the following:
“The five second rule” and or
“If you’re consuming the poison (a carcinogen) _already, you don’t need to stop, as long as you take it with food. But don’t start if you never did touch the poison.” message?
Etc.

They’re simply stupid. So are people who actually belive the 5 second rule is the least bit valid. They think they “know things” that other people don’t know.

My first thought was similar to @josie.‘s The “hipster maxim” (If everyone is doing it, it must be bad), fueled by increasing distrust of governments and “systems”. Misinformation spreads more easily nowadays due to the internet; people can do a quick Google search and find all the information they need to support their preconceived notions, no matter how flawed their notions and the information they read may be. I’ve heard that more people are becoming flat-earthers as well. People are getting dumber. I believe that firmly.

Let’s not underplay the contribution of religion (as contrasted to rationalism and science) to the anti-vaxxers.

I think that the right wing has become the anti-science, anti enlightenment party, and that the anti-vaxxers see inoculations as science that they don’t understand.

So it is ignorance plus religious belief.

Anti-vaxxer’s are often skeptical people who take skepticism a step too far. They’re on the opposite side of the same coin with climate change deniers

“No body’s going to tell ME what to do!”
And, like with some people and the law, it’s only illegal (an issue) if you get caught (sick). So don’t get caught (sick)!
Ignorance IS bliss!

The answer is social media—twitter, FB, etc. It allows people to connect and when they are ganged up on by pro-vaxxers their defenses get even more hardened and they sink into their tribes.

“Sink.” Perfect.

There are always going to be those conspiracy theorists among us. But it is the alarming (but predictable) growth in overall distrust of authorities in any field that spreads from the disintegration of public confidence in the government and its representatives. You might say it’s an unforeseen consequence of the war in Vietnam followed by the war in Iraq, and the huge boost afforded suspicion of knowledge by climate change denial enthusiasts.

Who benefits from the anti-vax movement? The answer might be there.

A foreign power or its agents looking weaken the nation?
A domestic group looking to destabilize the medical system?
A fake news mill looking to increase viewers?
A social network looking to increase clicks – and advertising revenue?
etc.

Start looking there.

Conspiracy opportunists like Alex Jones seem to be very effective in concentrating and tickling the imagination of those who want to believe that sort of thing. He and others like him make a good living at it too…
You would not belive how many people in my hood are up in arms about smart meters they are installing now. Pretty sure that Mr. Jones got that ball rolling… That, flat earthers, truthers, vaccines and so many other conspiracies are like an infection. It’s spreading and we all probably know at least one person who has it.

Any little turd like that just takes a little push and once it starts rolling it picks more and more momentum as it spreads across social media. Before you know it there is a “community” and once that takes hold we are stuck with it. Does not matter how much it’s debunked the tribe will speak. Really….it’s the same sort of thing that has democrats and republicans at each others throats.

Well crafted misinformation from trusted sources.

Unfortunately, any of us can fall prey to that if it falls outside of our personal store of knowledge.

I actually don’t think anti-vaxxers are crazy. I personally am not against vaccines, but I also respect other people’s rights to parent their child as they see fit, including homeschooling.

Here’s an article about this pov.
https://www.philly.com/opinion/commentary/anti-vaccine-vaxxer-movement-parents-judgment-20190328.html

House Bill 711 prohibits an elementary school, secondary school, public institution of higher education, day care, or physician’s office from discriminating against a child because he or she has received a legal exemption to immunization requirements due to medical contraindications or religious beliefs.

Bill sponsor Rep. Lynn Morris, R-Nixa, said he is a pharmacist that isn’t against vaccines, but said he is for safe vaccines and for the right of people to choose what they have done with their children.

“I think it’s a very slippery slope that we go down if we allow state governments, local governments and federal governments to mandate what they inject into our children and even into our adults,” Morris said. He said he’s trying to protect the medical and religious exemptions in Missouri.
https://krcgtv.com/news/local/missouri-bill-would-prohibit-discrimination-against-children-with-vaccination-exemptions

One persons religion does not have the right to kill my children out of fear and ignorance.

@Caravanfan The French and Italians are fighting it, too. It’s not just the religious by any means. See below, it’s called Medical Coersion.

Turning their backs on the human rights principle of voluntary informed consent memorialized in the Nuremberg Code after World War II, health authorities in France and Italy are fast-tracking involuntary vaccine mandates for school-age children. In Italy, millions of Italians have been demonstrating since June, protesting the infringements to parental rights. On July 28, industry-beholden Italian legislators voted 296–92 to pass a one-size-fits-all law that mandates multiple doses of ten vaccines for preschoolers through teenagers, imposing steep fines for parents who do not comply. Mainstream media outlets in both Italy and the US ignored the record protests against medical coercion.

Why Italy? And why now? Italy’s pharmaceutical sector is one of the largest in the world. Vaccines are big business, and the new vaccine mandate ensures the continued flow of profits to the $32 billion industry despite steady erosion of public confidence in vaccine safety. A recent survey found widespread doubts among Italian and French citizens about the importance and safety of vaccines. A cascade of recent scientific studies have described the emergence of new vaccine-related autoimmune illnesses and the inferior health status of vaccinated compared to unvaccinated children. Furthermore, a slate of films, news reports and government investigations have exposed widespread corruption among vaccine regulators, government efforts to hide serious vaccine-related adverse reactions and intimidation of scientists who publish data contrary to the orthodoxy that all vaccines are always safe for all children.

Kill the Messenger
One important study, published in early 2017 in the International Journal of Vaccines and Vaccination by two highly regarded Italian scientists, raises alarming new questions about quality control by vaccine manufacturers with implications for the vaccine safety debate. (The Children’s Health Defense previously summarized the study here.) Coauthored by physicist Antonietta Gatti and pharmacist Stefano Montanari, the study uncovered the nearly universal presence in vaccines of “micro-, sub-micro- and nanosized inorganic foreign bodies” and “debris”—ingredients not declared in the package inserts.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/fast-tracking-mandatory-vaccination-government-media-muzzle-scientists/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwkoDmBRCcARIsAG3xzl-rUK2Zgix_Iyt1BqGuxxWMEHg9xE4dntwTqMZTOeNW7SZDmeyekg8aApuJEALw_wcB

@caravanfan I agree. If you plan on not vaccinating your kids, please keep them locked in the house so they don’t start an epidemic of measles, polio, chicken pox, etc.
Although you can get caught up with vaccines at a later date, even as an adult, the unvaccinated are limiting their education access and job opportunities.

Personally, I think that vaccines that carry little to no risk and have been independently proven safe should be compulsory to participate in society. That said, there needs to be rigid safeguards in place to keep people from being exploited and taking unecessary risks. We don’t have said safeguards in my mind so it would be a slippery slope to make them mandatory. I get them for the record.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I’m not sure parents worried about autism and other issues would consider that little to no risk. Interesting article below.

Kennedy said his group has more than six dozen studies that establish a link between thimerosal and autism. He says there are no studies that exonerate the ingredient.

He said that means our country is pumping high levels of mercury into children and pregnant women when they are given flu shots.

“I don’t understand why everybody isn’t upset,” he said.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/debate-over-vaccine-safety

@KNOWITALL I consider articles like that to be opinion pieces and not really worth reading. They’re often laced with politics, propaganda and almost always misrepresent “studies.” Those studies may really be garbage or are being misrepresented. It’s best to read the actual studies and make your own determination. And about the source of this opinion piece, I only see business people and dietitians behind it so yeah I think it’s probably propaganda laced ad-driven click bait. That said, I am concerned that making vaccines mandatory will result in abuses by the medical industry.

A complication likely from the flu wiped out my sense of smell. The flu is nothing to mess with, I’ll take my shot. If a causal link can be determined then the industry needs to do a double take on that specific ingredient. I’m pretty good with a little stray mercury if it means never having measles or hep or small pox… Just like the people worried about “RF exposure” from smart meters I think the Autism “link” is being blown completely out of proportion.

@KNOWITALL Let me be absolutely clear on this one. The link between autism and vaccines is a lie. A complete fabrication. Totally made up. Utter bullshit. Absolute hogwash.

@ARE_you_kidding_me & @Caravanfan

And again, I don’t have kids, this is not MY issue, but I think it’s a legitimate question based on the number of people uncomfortable with the situation, across the world.

The bottom line is that there is no vaccinated kid vs unvaccinated kid study according to everything I’ve read, so I won’t be calling anti-vaxxers fools at this point.

It’s not as if some vaccines haven’t been taken off the market either.

The results of the investigations showed that RotaShield® vaccine caused intussusception in some healthy infants younger than 12 months of age who normally would be at low risk for this condition.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/vac-rotashield-historical.htm

But people are uncomfortable with it because it’s compulsory, not because there’s any real link between vaccines and autism. That’s something people came up with after the fact to legitimize their discomfort. And I understand that autism rates are increasing and no one has any real explanation for it, so people are desperately searching for anything that might be a cause, but vaccines aren’t it. And meanwhile they’re causing genuine health crises, like the rise in measles cases.

Here’s a somewhat humorous article about this subject. I know I’ve said it here many times about many issues, but shaming and name-calling do not change anyone’s mind.

I think is the most important sentence in the article:
Here, you need to be understanding. As your sister notes, today’s parents have never seen or experienced many of the illnesses that vaccines ward off. So it’s no wonder people like her have some hesitancy about volunteering otherwise healthy babies for dozens of needles.

https://www.vox.com/a/thanksgiving-family-debates-2015/do-vaccines-cause-autism

@Demosthenes, I don’t think autism rates are really increasing, I think recognition-of-autism rates are increasing. What used to be considered odd quirks or “difficult phases” in children are now being recognized as likely being on the spectrum.

The good news is that those of us that have been vaccinated against the measles are protected for life.
The bad news is there is still a measles outbreak, seemingly really bad in New York.

I can’t find the article, @chyna, but check with your doctor just to be sure a booster, now that there are all these outbreaks, might be in order. Maybe @Caravanfan has heard something. The article also said that those of us who are old enough and had measles before the vaccine are probably fine.
There are conflicting ideas.

@canidmajor Theoretically you are protected, but immunity can wane. I got a measles titre checked a few years ago and I was fine, so I didn’t get revaccinated. But according to the CDC if you’ve been vaccinated you’re fine.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/hcp/index.html#immunity

Thanks, @Caravanfan, I had wondered at that, and couldn’t remember where I had seen the article.

Absolute stupidity

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/197365

Bits of science taken out of context. But dressed up as absolute truths.

The way in which people consume information through social media is highly problematic. The inability to differentiate peer-reviewed research from opinion pieces.

So,@everyone who didn’t respond to “The five second rule”, would you?

@flo What does the so-called “five second rule” have to do with being antivaccine?

Would we do what @flo?

I think @flo is asking how many of us would follow the 5 sec rule. Drop food and pick it up to eat it.

If it’s a grape or something on my home floor that’s clean, I’d still rinse it off, but seeing someone eat a chip off their desk or something doesn’t bother me. Personal preference, but it depends on the food and place they drop it.

I think she’s actually talking about her comment.

“What do you think of the following:
“The five second rule” and or
“If you’re consuming the poison (a carcinogen) _already, you don’t need to stop, as long as you take it with food. But don’t start if you never did touch the poison.” message?
Etc.”

I don’t think anyone has responded because it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. And even more confusing trying to figure out how it’s related to vaccines.

@flo Can you clarify what you’re trying to ask?

So, it sounds like I think anti vaxxers are likely to be believers in “the five second rule”, or consume poison/carcinogen, related thing in my last post. No, that’s not what I was trying to communicate.

What do you all think of the “five second rule” notion? Who contemplated, studied it? And the other thing in my post the notion if you already are consuming (a carcinogen/posion, fill in the blank) you don’t need to stop because it has (something good for health in it fill in the blank) notion?

There are no “studies” on the “five second rule”. It’s just something someone made up.

The 5 second rule is ridiculous. Germs and bacteria don’t scamper like ants to get to piece of dropped food.
As to if the 2 are related..the only person I knew who treated the 5 second rule like it was serious was extremely religious. I know her youngest daughter is an antivaxer and she once credited her mom for it.
So yes. Ignorance knows no bounds.

@Dutchess_lll It is ridiculous. And I am a firm adherant to it. :-)

My dog is too fast, nothing actually hits the floor in my house.

Here is an OP I posted in the topic.

You didn’t link.

Oops, thanks.
https://www.fluther.com/213923/would-a-university-study-any-and-every-ridiculous-notion-out-there/

The 5-second rule has been explored before: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/20/science/five-second-rule.html
Contamination depends more on the food and the surface than on the time.

@RocketGuy Would you elaborate?

@RocketGuy By the way, your link and my link are the same study by Rutgers in 2016 I think.

@flo – yes it is! They found that certain surfaces have more germs and that moister food picked up more germs if there were any. I guess cookie on the playground is better than watermelon on carpet.

Here is a different one: https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/5-second-rule-rules-sometimes-#1
This one says there is no definite yes/no answer, but just say NO.

They found that ”...and that moister food picked up more germs if there were any.”
Amazing.

Well. I assume there aren’t any germs and I snatch that chocolate square off the floor and eat it! Chomp. Chomp chomp!

Yep, chocolate and cookies are dry => don’t pick up that many germs. If there is no visible dirt or dog hair, then good to go!

@RocketGuy If the toilet just got cleaned, you would drink the water from the bowl, since it looks clean?

I would @flo, if I was absolutely desperate and literally dying of thirst.

I’d just pull the lid off the tank and get it from there.

I said “dry”. A toilet is “wet” ...

When I clean a toilet (once in a blue moon), plenty of bleach is involved. There are very few germs left, but I would still go with @ARE_you_kidding_me and drink from the tank.

Don’t underestimate the appeal of toilet wine.

Sure.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I’m guessing you would do that if you have no access to tap water.
@RocketGuy What is the difference between the dry and the wet? Something can be wet and cleaner than the dry things.
@raum, In that link the person is drinking from a fountain from an unused toilet, in an exhibition.

The problem with the anti-vaxx argument is it distracts from the real world necessity to regulate drug companies and stop them from the graft and corruption not only they engage in, but that they’ve injected into regulatory bodies in multiple countries, and the whole issue distracts from the fact that there’s a right-wing/Neo-Nazi resurgence going on worldwide and you find anti-vaxx controversies rising along the same tide and timeline as that push.

If vaccines are dangerous, millions upon millions of people would be sick and dying from vaccines every day, because their users are ten times as common as cigarette smokers, whose yearly (American) deaths have been numbered on the low 480,000 per year. So, logically if vaccines were dangerous, there would be at least 4,800,000 deaths every year from vaccines, In America? Or if we’re being generous, let’s say that many worldwide could be expected, right?
There aren’t. there aren’t even a significant enough number of vaccine deaths to merit a number, not ones that are confirmed.