Why is the left making excuses for Biden?

Because when brains were being given out the left were left behind…simples.

Because the pressure that Biden put on the Ukraine was official policy and in conjunction with other European countries.
It was not a private phone call that was later hidden away on a server meant for national security issues.
Even the formet Ukraine prosecutor says that there is no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Bidens:
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/3789411002
If drumpf actually cared about any potential crimes committed by the Bs, he would have done it out in the open, using official channels, and your own domestic law enforcent for the investigation.

@seawulf575 You’re not talking about the left you’re talking about the “Democratic Establishment.” I say if Biden did something wrong, lock his ass up next to Trump and HRC.

So @seawulf575 Will you accept @ragingloli link as fact into the matter or simply as usual blow it off as left wing propaganda?

If I were @seawulf575 , I would immediately deflect the question and ask Why are the republicans making excuses for Trump?

But I am not that low and deceitful, so I won’t.

I reject the entire premise of your question. Which is a troll, by the way.

The question illustrates the OP’s disconnect with reality. The “left” in his view includes the press, the media, the courts, the Democrats, even the security agencies overlooking this matter. In other words when the OP says LEFT, he is in fact bitching over the consensus arrived at by theSOCIETY overall. The decision that Biden & his kid are faultless was arrived at by the RESPONSIBLE press, as well as the DOJ and FBI. Not only is this fact proof positive according to the OP of the leftist adherence of these entities, this question is in fact today’s effort to distract and divert attention from the main event. This is a daily function of the OP, and a reliable technique in his ongoing campaign of disinformation and disruption. There will be another fake news red herring any minute. Watch for it!

Biden doesn’t need excuses as he hasn’t done anything wrong

Interesting and rather valid point. But he can serve as today’s shiny object until another can be fabricated. The trouble is that the fool’s fuckup pace keeps the elves of disinformation worked to exhaustion. No factory can keep up.

@SQUEEKY2 Want me to address the link from @ragingloli? Okay…I’ll do so gladly. AND I will point out along the way exactly why it is left wing propaganda.
Let’s start with this opening sentence: “President Donald Trump has repeatedly, without evidence, claimed that Biden as vice president threatened to withhold “billions of dollars to Ukraine” unless it removed prosecutor general Viktor Shokin, who was investigating the oligarch behind Burisma Group. Hunter had served on Burisma’s board of directors. ”

Note the words “without evidence”. Now let’s look at this video for a moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA--dj2-CY&app=desktop

We see here that Biden actually admits he DID threaten to withhold a billion dollar loan unless they fired Shokin in the next 6 hours. AND he implicated Obama in the process. So I don’t know about Libbyland, but in the US, someone admitting they did that would be considered evidence in any court in the land. But let’s go on and look at a few more FACTS. at the end of the video of Biden bragging, he says they fired the prosecutor and put in someone who was solid. That someone was Lutsenko, who is the prosecutor that @ragingloli references with his link. Now, it might just be speculation, but “solid” might also mean someone that will go along easily.
But it’s funny…the deeper I dig into this, the more that comes out….the layers of the onion are covering some juicy stuff so to speak. The story @raginloli cites says Lutsenko reports that the investigation into Burisma was for the time period of 2010 to 2012 and Hunter Biden wasn’t hired on until 2014. That is probably true and it would be true that you couldn’t hold Hunter Biden accountable for things that happened before he was hired. But that isn’t to say that Biden didn’t want anyone looking too closely at why his son was fired, nor does it mean that they didn’t want the prosecutor to be fired for some other investigation going on. I came across this article

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/435906-us-embassy-pressed-ukraine-to-drop-probe-of-george-soros-group-during-2016

And here we have the very same Lutsenko, referenced in @ragingloli‘s article, speaking…telling us that the US ambassador (Obama’s placement) at the time gave him a list of people can organizations that he should not investigate. Now, I don’t know about you, but that seems AWFULLY suspicious, especially since it happened when he was looking into what happened to $4.4M in aid that seems to have been mysteriously vaporized when it got close to a Soros-funded group. And this group was on the do-not-investigate list.

So it seems as if there is a lot of corruption on the part of the Obama administration and that Biden was a part of at least some of it. And as you can see, the article that @ragingloli is only a partial truth with a bit of blatant lie thrown in. There IS evidence that Biden pressured Ukraine to fire the prosecutor…his own words. There IS evidence that the US was elbow deep in corruption in the Ukraine….the words of the state prosecutor.
So @SQUEEKY2 are you going to accept my links as the FACTS of the matter or are you going to try writing it off as right-wing propaganda? Or will you, as I suspect, deflect and attack me?

@gorillapaws You are correct and I apologize for the incorrect characterization. I know there are good, sane, rational folks on the left, but honestly it is getting harder to find them. AND the left is swinging so far to the left that those that aren’t irrational yet adhere to leftist ideals are considered right wingers…or at least centrists…by the left. Welcome to the center and possibly the right!

@flutherother please see the aforementioned data with which I just responded to @SQUEEKY2. AND let me point out one more thing. By Biden’s own bragging, he didn’t pressure them on the phone or in an email…he did it in a private face-to-face conversation. So as far as Lutsenko is concerned, there wouldn’t be any evidence and therefore no reason to investigate. And please note that Lutsenko isn’t saying Biden didn’t do anything wrong…he is saying that he didn’t appear to have violated Ukrainian law…that an investigation into the Biden’s needs to start in the US. Now, let’s get back to the Trump conversation with Zelenskyy for a moment. Trump was saying that he thought it was great that Ukraine was really digging into corruption and that if there was anything that the US could do to help we would. And that is why he suggested Barr reach out to the Ukrainian counterparts to see what was needed, if anything.

@stanleybmanly so you would say it is okay to elect someone who has a shady past because they aren’t “today’s shiny object”? REALLY? So you think it is smart to not look into candidates’ pasts until they are elected?

@elbanditoroso except you did just go that low and deceitful. And you wrote the entire question off as a troll which is another way of saying “don’t look at Biden”. You just gave my question validity. And when you look at some of the answers I am getting….many of the jellies are still trying to make excuses for Biden.
When Trump was being looked at for Russiagate, I called it a witch hunt as there was no solid evidence. And what did people like you say to me? “What do you have to worry about?
If he did nothing wrong, then the investigation will show that. But if he did something wrong, don’t we have the right to know?” So does that logic only go one way?

I’m saying no such thing. I’m saying the accusations against Biden were investigated and quickly dismissed as you well know.. Now I expect your customary gnashing of teeth over our corrupt system giving Joe and his kid a pass, but the fool is overdue for his usual daily scandal. Have you a controversial distraction at the ready?

@seawulf575 You need look no further for the reasons for Viktor Shokin’s sacking than his own corruption. The American ambassador to Ukraine in September 2015 said this: “Corrupt actors within the prosecutor general’s office are making things worse by openly and aggressively undermining reform.”

Trump on the other hand said this in his call to Zelensky “I heard the prosecutor was treated very badly and he was a very fair prosecutor.”

Now who would have said that to Trump I wonder? It wasn’t Zelensky and it wasn’t the US ambassador – or did Trump just make it up for his own nefarious ends?

Was this question asked for the sole purpose of arguing with people whose opinions you don’t agree with?

@jca2 yes. His paymasters in the Trump administration like him to do that.

@seawulf575 ”...AND the left is swinging so far to the left that those that aren’t irrational yet adhere to leftist ideals are considered right wingers…or at least centrists…by the left. Welcome to the center and possibly the right!”

I think your political compass is miscalibrated. I consider myself an independant/FDR Democrat. It’s the neoliberal, Democratic party establishment that has drifted right of center (with the Republicans moving even further). I would argue that Biden’s economic record is more conservative than Reagan—as one point of reference. You guys are being gaslit by a corporate controlled media.

I have a problem with corruption. I know the Democratic establishment has plenty of corruption, and the Republican party is teeming with it. I support policies and candidates that reduce the influence of money on politics. Biden’s son should not have been earning $50k a month from a Ukrainian energy company, when he had no experience in the energy sector or the Ukraine. That stinks to high hell. I’m happy to call that out. Clinton is also guilty of some awful shit. AND Trump is also a scumbag who repeatedly violates the Emoluments clause, and engaged in impeachable actions by colluding with foreign leaders for political advantage.

^^^GREAT answer, what our rabid wulfie doesn’t get that if Biden did something wrong should pay, but refuses to admit his orange hair god did something wrong as well.
One thing Trump could indeed walk out in the street shoot someone in plain sight, with smoking gun in hand turn to his base and say he didn’t do it and they would believe him and better yet blame the left for it.

As for your holy fright wing facts @seawulf575 Biden didn’t do it for reelection purposes, unlike your Don Father, and if it was illegal should pay for it.
Your God used his office to try and get dirt on a political opponent which is highly illegal but you refuse to believe it,so what about that?

There was agreement among our European allies that the prosecutor should be removed, because he was not doing his job. Why do you suppose that Zelensky did not reinstate him, which would have greatly pleased Trump?

@gorillapaws , I agree that there is something fishy about Hunter Biden’s job, but I don’t see in it a reason for going after Joe Biden.

@jca2 The question is asked because we seem to treat two similar offenses entirely differently. On one hand, there are accusations that Trump used coercion on the Ukrainian government to investigate Biden…an allegation for which there is zero fact. On the other hand, we have Biden ADMITTING he coerced the Ukrainian government to do something that was really outside his purview to ask and the response is that we should leave him alone or that it doesn’t matter. Why is there such a discrepancy on the issue? Is it okay to coerce a foreign government potentially for personal gain or not?
So the excuses that Biden is not POTUS are bogus….he is running for that office. The excuses that it is old news is bogus…there was never an (honest) investigation into it so it was just let go. The thought that he is some kind of distraction is nothing but another way of saying “don’t look at him”. Why? We want to launch investigations and impeachment inquiries for far less.

@SQUEEKY2 Hhhmmm….let’s see…you challenged me to accept someone’s link as fact. I accepted that challenge and responded in force with links of my own. I asked you if you would accept my links as fact. You dodged that challenge entirely. So why do you bother trying to challenge me on things? You know I will hand you all sorts of facts that you will not like, will not admit are true no matter how true they are, and you will just change the story again.
And, as predicted, you tried writing off all my facts as “fright wing facts”. Facts is facts. And a fact is true. So a fact cannot be right wing or left wing. What is attempted to be passed as facts is where the right or left comes in. Now…I pointed out exactly what was wrong with the “facts” @ragingloli presented. I presented many of my own. Care to take the challenge and try going point by point and disproving my “facts”?

@LostInParadise So let me understand…because our European allies didn’t like this Ukrainian prosecutor (which again…I’m struggling with why they would care) that makes Biden coercing the Ukrainian government into firing him okay? Is that what you are saying?

@flutherother That US ambassador to Ukraine in 2015…wasn’t that the same one that Lutsenko says called him in for a meeting and gave him a list of people and companies that he wasn’t allowed to investigate? Huh. Yeah…that statement you say came from her really carries weight.

Once again you are busy here unloading disinformation. The comparison of Biden’s actions with those of the fool is patently dishonest. Biden was engaged in carrying out the ESTABLISHED will of his government. It was NOT his unilateral decision to advocate the dismissal of a flagrantly corrupt official, and he in no way benefitted personally through the application of pressure on Ukraine to achieve his country’s foreign policy goals. The charge is a false comparison and so blatantly transparent that it was quickly dismissed for the shoddy decoy it is in fact.

So you are supporting coercion as being the ESTABLISHED will of our government? Doesn’t that tell you a whole lot about the Obama administration?

Bozo the clown is a gangster but @seawulf575 hasn’t figured out why, since he is the the singularly best person knows and the the Bigly stable genius, all the while he is tanking tanking the USA (sending all the money he, Donny Jr and Eric are making to the Ukraine for Trump Towers Ukraine).

And he’ll declare bankruptcy before he leaves under darkness of night to Ukraine.

@seawulf575 , It is not a matter of liking or disliking. The prosecutor was not doing his job. He was allowing corruption. The U.S. and Europe had good reason for his ouster. Why lend money if there is a good chance that it will be misspent?

@seawulf575 I support the rule of law, but that once again is irrelevant to the question of whether Biden broke any laws. There is NO question among rational people that he did.

He did ask the Ukraine President to look into Biden….https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Unclassified09.2019.pdf
First paragraph page 4.

@seawulf575 Whatabout . . . . !
Deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect deflect !

@Tropical_Willie I understand it makes you uncomfortable when the criminal acts of Obama or Hillary or any of your liberal darlings are mentioned and you LOVE to try shutting it up by calling it deflection. However, this entire question is based on the inequality of reaction between Trump and the left. Biden was the current example, but you can’t talk about Biden’s actions without getting into Obama as well. Sorry little boy, you are wrong…it isn’t deflection. Throw your little temper tantrum elsewhere, OR…here’s a novel thought…join the conversation like a real little boy instead of like a little sniping stoat.

@LostInParadise First off, the state prosecutor isn’t the one controlling the purse strings. Secondly, the replacement state prosecutor was told by the US ambassador about companies and people he wasn’t allowed to investigate when he started looking at US money that seemed to be getting misspent (read as siphoned). Thirdly, withholding funds because you might think they are going to go to feed corruption is EXACTLY the reason Trump gave for holding up the most recent loan before the phone call. And that is the crux of the left’s argument for impeaching him…that he used that as some sort of quid pro quo to get a “favor”. So that is why this question was asked. You see the inconsistencies I know…you are not a stupid person. If you are using fiscal responsibility as an excuse for Biden and as a reason for impeachment for Trump, you are talking out of both sides of you mouth. AND when Biden did it, we have his own words verifying he did it as a coercion….something you don’t have with Trump.

@stanleybmanly if you agree that Biden broke the law, then why are there so many people saying we shouldn’t be concerned about it, that we should leave him alone, that it doesn’t matter, even that he did nothing wrong? He did exactly what you are saying Trump did and you, yourself, have said that by saying so it is a created smoke screen. Biden wants to be POTUS and you are trying to deflect any importance to his actions, but are saying you agree he broke the law.

@SQUEEKY2 Go back and read the paragraph before the one you cite. Zelenskyy is talking about opening a new chapter in Ukraine’s history and is hoping it will be one of better relations with the US. He specifically says he is looking to establish trust and confidence and have a personal relationship with Trump. HE is the one that says he likes Giuliani and that he had some of his people reach out to him….not the other way around. Zelenskyy is the one that says not only will he look into the Crowdstrike/Hillary/Dem/Server scandal, but others as well. In your cited paragraph, Trump mentions the ex-US Ambassador (the woman I cited as telling Lutsenko who he could not investigate) as being bad news and mentions Biden’s bragging. That really isn’t like “hey, could you do me a big favor and dig up dirt on Biden for me? He’s talking about things Americans potentially did that were not right. And here’s a thought for you…that’s his job as POTUS. He’s not asking for any of the information, he’s keeping another world leader aware that Americans may have done wrong and it is okay to look at them.

DISINFORMATION! I DON’T agree that Biden broke the law. That is exactly opposite what I have written. READING COMPREHENSION. This page is covered with the precise reasons Biden did NOT break the law. I often wonder if your posts here are the work of several separate individuals taking turns posting your tirades. Clearly, some of you arrive here unaware of what the others are saying. It looks like tedious shift work is the operative rule in your disinformation factory. Why not seek honest work and spare yourselves the humiliation you bring down upon yourselves?

@stanleybmanly let me quote you:

:I support the rule of law, but that once again is irrelevant to the question of whether Biden broke any laws. There is NO question among rational people that he did.

So by that statement you are saying that rational people know he did. When you say there is NO question that he did, you are agreeing he did. So calling it disinformation and trying to deny he did it says you are not a rational person. So you are right…I gave you credit as being rational. Apparently I made a bad assumption. So what you are saying is that only IRRATIONAL people believe he didn’t break the law. Got it.

I owe you an apology. You are for the first time I can remember—correct. That should read “that he did not”. But even that error should not dissuade you from understanding from the rest of my rants that Biden has committed no crimes, which is why his use as a deflection was quickly negated. And don’t waste your time slinging approbations of irrationality, while there is no rational consistency to your pathetic attempts at tiresome rampant disinformation. Get an honest job and gain some self respect.

Apology accepted. But to be honest, your rants often vary from point to point. You might need to think before ranting in the future. And when you continue to make personal attacks, you lose credibility as being a rational person. Might want to heed your own advice.

What’s irrational is your persistence in the defense of a visibly repugnant pig through chicanery and crude false equivalencies. It is about as honest a portrayal of reality as the pig himself. That is the most striking aspect of your posts here, how beautifully suited the 2 of you are in crudely “creative” distortion of the truth. You are BOTH textbook specified examples of twisted distortion, and in the end THAT is the only option for defending your turd. Once again it is a useless and degrading task as you continue to humiliate yourself. Why not dump the pathetic and hopeless defense of the turd. Nobody’s fooled by such chronically asthmatic nonsense as “Biden or Obama are turds too”.

@seawulf575 , Do you have a link to your claim that the U.S. put limits on what the new prosecutor could link into? The story given by officials from the U.S. and Europe is that the original was not doing anything, permitting corruption. This is the opposite of what Trump is saying. There is no evidence that the prosecutor was looking into Hunter Trump or anyone else.

@seawulf575 When you’re losing an argument, attack the person !

S M H

Oh my…. Here I am. In somewhat agreement with @seawulf575 .

Biden didn’t do exactly what Trump did. Ok. But he did use his influence, in an abusive manor.

I think Biden should be removed from being a candidate. If we are going to make a stand, against people abusing power, Biden should be out. If the US is going to take a stand against abuse of power, and step away from people like Trump. We have to concede that Biden committed a similar act.
I forget which jelly provided the link, but Biden did (arguably) brag about abusing his power. I would like to see the US move away, from such characters. Otherwise, we are setting a tone, where the POTUS, or people in high position can do whatever they want. Biden did what Trump is infamous for. He basically bragged, publicly, about an action we should all find deplorable. That isn’t what the US, is supposed to stand for.

If we think Trump’s behavior, is abhorrent, we should see Biden’s actions as equally deplorable. He essentially extorted a foreign country, for personal gain.

If we’re going to impeach Trump, over similar behavior, we should be judging Biden similarly. I’m tired of top US officials, acting this way..

The US, is supposed to be above such behavior. I think that illustrated that Biden, is not bellow acting like Trump. If given the power of POTUS, he may be a version of Trump-lite. That’s personally intolerable, to me. And just like Trump, he thought that he was in a position to act like a big shot asshole. I am shocked by Trump’s behavior, but this ranks right up there, with Trump’s.

We don’t need another dictator-like POTUS. We need to be moving back in the direction of a POTUS, that follows what the majority of Americans would want. Not a self serving jerk.

We’ve done enough damage, with Trump at the helm. A democratic version of him, is NOT what America, nor the world needs.

Biden should be investigated, for this, and held to the same standards, we are holding Trump to.

Biden has his strengths, but he has shown that he can be just as shitty, as Trump.

Loli’s link is relevant. But when I saw Biden, on YouTube, he showed me what I interpret as Trump’s arrogance, and that is not the direction we need to be headed in.

I loved Al Frankin too. But in this climate, he had to step down. It’s nearly impossible to be perfect, but Biden illustrates the propensity, to be another sack of shit.

IMO. Trump should be removed, and Biden has proven that he would probably be better, but is capable of abusing the office as well.

Fuck him…

Biden did not commit a similar act to Trump. His son was on the board of Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian energy company, for 5 years but there is no evidence he did anything corrupt. His father, Joe Biden helped get Viktor Shokin, the Ukrainian prosecutor, sacked but Shokin was widely seen as corrupt and Daria Kaleniuk executive director of Ukraine’s Anti Corruption Action Centre has confirmed this.

You can see the interview with Ms Kaleniuk here

^Biden was on YouTube, and personally said some stupid things. Including a remark, that could be considered bragging about holding power, over the money being given to the Ukraine. I don’t recall the exact quote. But the Ukrainian representative asked him something like, do you have the authority to withhold, the money. Biden sausage “call Obama.” It came off, as him bragging, about his power, or not give them the money, if they didn’t play ball. It could have been interpreted, differently. But. To me. It sounded like a veiled threat….

Ok if what Biden did was a crime , then it should be investigated and he should be charged, NO ONE should be above the law.

Now for FUCKS sake @seawulf575 will you be man enough to admit the same thing for your Don Father?
There seems to be a lot of very nervous republicans, on the news lately going off in all directions when asked about this call,that was so perfect.

Would you please explain why Mike Pompeo at first knowing lied about knowing about the call,only to be found out later to actually have been in on that call, why would he do that if that call was so PERFECT?

Shokin was a corrupt prosecutor. He was removed from office because he wasn’t investigating corruption cases not because he was. Here’s a clip of a protest in Ukraine against Shokin

@SQUEEKY2 . Apparently the world is full of corruption. Biden was no angel, in his involvement. As with Trump, I heard it from his own lips.

@flutherother That doesn’t matter to our fright wing extremist only if what Biden did was illegal and could face charges for it.

@MrGrimm888 The world is full of corruption and I admire those who make a stand against it.

I agree @MrGrimm888 but is what he did an a chargeable offence our wulf sure hopes so, and I would agree if it is then he should be charged.
Same as CRUMP should be charged or impeached.

If it was illegal then Biden should face the music. But it seems he didn’t act to protect his son. It wouldn’t make sense to boast about that and there is no evidence for it. The accusation seems to be a Trump tactic. Attack is the best means of defence.

^I’miss not sure if that’s a jab, at me. But I try to judge these politicians, by their own words. I’m not a left, or right winger. Biden seemed hapoy, admiting his role in the scandal. He should be held to the same light, as Trump.

But bragging about must be sure he didn’t commit any kind of crime, he surely can’t be as stupid as Trump?

@MrGrimm888 Not sure what you mean by a “jab at you” but it wasn’t meant that way. Biden made a mistake in boasting about his role in getting Shokin removed but that itself isn’t a crime.

If we are to judge Trump, by his behavior, we should judge Biden, the same. Come on…..

Once upon a time the countries of the world looked up to the United States as a defender of freedom and a force against corruption in the world. In that light I personally don’t see that Biden did anything wrong apart from brag.

I guess in the end did Biden used the power of his office for personal or political gain for the democrats that would be the crime.
If he used the power to rid a bad guy in a foreign country for the good of the world or at least your whole country then how is that a crime, except for bragging about it?

^Social media, is part if how people judge others. Why should Biden be different?

The US gives the Ukraine millions if not billions of dollars in aid and so it is in the interests of the US to stamp out corruption and make sure the money is spent productively. Biden’s only crime as far as I can see was bragging about having Shokin removed which was a mistake. However Trump has made his allegation and it should be investigated.

@LostInParadise Yes, I did post a link to the article that shows the US ambassador gave the new prosecutor a list of who and what he couldn’t investigate. It is in my very first response on this thread. Lutsenko, in his own words, relates that.

@MrGrimm888 The youtube you reference is one I posted above. Biden was speaking at the council of foreign affairs and was relating that story. He said that after a meeting in Ukraine, that because the government had not fired the prosecutor as they had said they would (which would also imply that was a condition of getting the loan in the first place), he told them as they were walking out that he was boarding a plane in 6 hours. If they hadn’t fired the prosecutor by then, he wasn’t going to give them the $1B loan. He says they told him he didn’t have that authority, only the POTUS had that authority. He told them “Call him”. And Son of a bitch! the prosecutor was fired! There isn’t a veiled threat there at all…it was blatant.

I am starting to see people saying that if Biden did what he is being accused of, then he needs to be investigated and held accountable. So if that is the case, then why is anything Trump might have said about investigating even an issue? Why are prominent Democrats saying we should leave Biden alone? Why are the Dems trying to say that asking the Ukraine to look at Biden for those actions is an impeachable offense? This is what the whole point of this question was.
What I am seeing is that the level of accountability is variable depending on if there is a (D) or an® associated with your name.

@SQUEEKY2 “But bragging about must be sure he didn’t commit any kind of crime, he surely can’t be as stupid as Trump?” Yes, he can be. No one in Obama’s administration was held accountable for any of the many scandals that took place. All efforts at getting investigations were blocked. So why would he fear bragging about it? Even now, there are efforts to avoid having him looked at. He is still being covered.

@flutherother “Once upon a time the countries of the world looked up to the United States as a defender of freedom and a force against corruption in the world. In that light I personally don’t see that Biden did anything wrong apart from brag.” Then why would you be for Trump asking for investigations into corruption? Again…if it is okay for Biden, why is it wrong for Trump? Or conversely, if it is impeachable for Trump, why isn’t it wrong for Biden?

@flutherother “The US gives the Ukraine millions if not billions of dollars in aid and so it is in the interests of the US to stamp out corruption and make sure the money is spent productively.” Again…that is what Trump is being threatened with impeachment about. He held up money that was going to Ukraine for that exact reason. At the time of the conversation with Zelenskyy, according to Zelenskyy, he didn’t even know it had been held up, much less a reason. Also, we now have Lutsenko telling us that when he started to look at how $4.4M ended up going into a private, Soros funded company, he was told by the US ambassador he wasn’t allowed to investigate that. That sounds like a lot of corruption to me. Yet according to what is going on now, even Trump is not allowed to look at any of that or else it brings on impeachment hearings. So why the double standard?

If Trump is so damn innocent why did Pompeo lie about knowing about the call when in FACT he was part of the call?
And why are they (the Republicans) stumbling so bad about this call when you believe Trump is innocent?

I will say both sides ooze sleaze, what I don’t get is you think with your fright wing facts the dems are the worst especially in Obama’s term, well he lost both houses I bet the conservatives would have strung him up if they could have nailed him anything you know being so corrupt .

I mean seeing how far the conservatives went about a BJ.
I know white water.

The problem with investigating Biden is that he hasn’t been accused of anything by anyone other than Trump and there is no evidence for the accusation. The evidence in fact points the other way that Shokin was corrupt and blocked investigations into Burisma and its owner, Mykola Zlochevskyi, who was also under investigation by the British Serious Fraud Office.

It doesn’t make sense to say Biden had Shokin sacked to prevent Burisma being investigated. Shokin and his predecessor, Vitaliy Yarema had already blocked the Burisma investigations.

You could argue that Hunter Biden should never have accepted his very well paid post with Burisma Holdings, a very dodgy company, but it flies in the face of the facts to say Shokin was sacked to protect him.

Now,now if he is a Democrat he is corrupt.
According to our extremists here at least, Trump is the only innocent one here after all that call was just perfect.

What will make the call perfect will be if it gets Trump impeached. lol.

NOW THAT I DO AGREE ^^^^ sorry for yelling but his screwball tariff are really hurting our forest industry here in BC.
Should ask our extremists here if that call was so innocent and perfect why did Pompeo lie about knowing about the call when he was in on the call?
Should that be investigated as well as Biden?

@flutherother What I find interesting with your answer is that it lacks actual truth. Many people have said Biden did wrong. And when the POTUS says you did wrong, it warrants looking at, not ignoring. He is in on many more things and has more information than most of us. Yet you want to ignore that he has been accused of anything. Then we move on to the lack of evidence. He admitted to using coercion on Ukraine. He admitted he did a quid pro quo that unless they did something, he would block the payment of monies that had been agreed would go to them. That is more blatant evidence of the exact same crime the Dem are accusing Trump of. The fact that Shokin was corrupt is actually meaningless in all this. There are corrupt government officials in every government there is.
I am sort of on the fence about why Biden had Shokin sacked. Burisma is the obvious answer, but I don’t know that is the only if any of the reason. Hearing Lutsenko explain that the US Ambassador wanted to dictate who he could and couldn’t investigate and having Biden brag that Lutsenko is a much more solid guy than Shokin, makes me wonder if Shokin was threatening to blow the whistle on corruption from our own government. Probably in the form of blackmail, but regardless…letting the cat out of the bag. So they worked to get rid of him in a hurry. I have zero proof of that, but just a feeling. I don’t doubt that Shokin was crooked, but is that reason enough to hold $1B in aid to a whole country? That seems to not hold together for my mind. What do corrupt people do? They try to enrich themselves in illegal fashions, using the power of their position to do so. Whether that enrichment is monetary or influence, either way it helps them.
I suspect Hunter Biden got his position because of the influence his father could bring. He had no experience in the industry or in the position, yet was brought in at the top. Joe Biden claims he didn’t know anything about Hunter’s job at Burisma, yet there is a photograph floating around of Joe and Hunter on the golf course with two of the oligarchs that ran Burisma. So he lied since he knew not only that Hunter worked there, what his job was, but was also social with the bosses.

Once again, the entire Biden supposition was but a shiny invention to distract from the actual crime. Another misinformation narrative manufactured and quickly dismissed for what it is.

Totally true, and always accusing us for deflecting.

@stanleybmanly and @SQUEEKY2 so what you are saying is that Biden can do anything and it doesn’t matter because all that matters is Trump. You do realize how deranged that sounds, right?

Fuck for someone who comprehends so well your not very good, all us said if he did a crime he should pay,but so should your orange haired god, but your totally ignoring that.

What an impossibly obtuse conclusion to draw from this. DEFLECTION You are once again changing the subject. Biden did the bidding of his government. He carried out the wishes of his government and EVERY government in the NATO alliance, at no personal gain or benefit. He did his fkn job, and bragged about it! You are the one who I don’t believe deranged. Rather you keep this red stupid flag waving in front in front of us to change the subject. Have you no other red herrings to divert attention from the fool? Give it up. You can’t draw attention from the turd. He won’t allow it!

@seawulf575 . That was indeed the video, I was referring to. Thanks for the reminder.

The video was not just essentially a confession, but it also shows (to me) a severe character flaw, with Biden. That’s why I support having Biden removed from being a candidate. I hold people responsible for their actions. Especially when they’re dumb enough, to brag about them. This is why I think Trump, is unsuitable for office.

Most jellies, on this thread, agree that Biden should be held accountable for a potential crime. But they are not counting the video, as evidence of that crime.

I would think you should be pleased with this, on the whole. I personally think that you have made valid points. But this, is why Trump, is hated. He’s not only breaking laws, he’s stupid, and arrogant. If you want people to hold Biden accountable, you should be throwing fits over Trump. As I said, you have made valid points. But you are also pointing out the hypocrisy, of your defending of Trump.

You keep pointing out double standards. Has it not occurred to you, that you are holding Trump, to different standards, and that this specific thread, is evidence of that? I don’t expect you to have a change, in your support for Trump. But let’s be honest, you have proven Biden’s guilt, but also exposed your own hypocrisy here… I’m not trying to be mean. Just trying to get you to examine your own biases.

Congratulations. You have me completely on your side, about Biden, and the dems here. Not an easy task. Well done sir…

@seawulf575 , The main group that the U.S. did not want to be investigated was an anti-corruption group funded by George Soros. The close ties between a private operation and the U.S. government is a little troubling, but they seem to have had their hearts in the right place. They did not go after any U.S. citizens for political gain as Trump is doing with Biden.

@LostInParadise Having a foreign ambassador tell a state prosecutor who he cannot investigate seems very odd. I mean think about it….what if the Ukrainian ambassador to the US called up William Barr and told him who he could and couldn’t investigate? To me, that is a huge red flag that there is something corrupt going on.

@seawulf575 The US gives hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to the Ukraine and has an interest in ensuring this money isn’t swallowed up by corruption. That explains why the US didn’t want to see the Ukrainian Anticorruption Action Centre shut down. It is the main, or maybe the only organisation battling corruption in Ukraine.

@flutherother If the Ukrainian Anticorruption Action Center is corrupt, it SHOULD be shut down. Lutsenko had some serious questions about why $4.4M in Ukrainian aid went to that organization. That was when he was told to not investigate them. Why are they above being looked at? If they are not corrupt they have nothing to worry about. And the US ambassador is not the right person to tell the Ukrainian state prosecutor who he should and shouldn’t look at. The Ambassador might make a request or voice a concern about the investigation, but to hand the guy a list and say “these are people and organizations you shouldn’t be investigating”? Sorry…it just doesn’t wash.

@seawulf575 Your information came from The Hill which relied completely on Ukraine’s discredited Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko for its claims. The Hill has since published the Ukrainian Anticorruption Action Centre’s response which explains why Lutsenko’s “do not investigate” claim is false.

Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Ruslan Ryaboshapka has stated today at a news conference in Kiev he is not aware of any evidence of wrongdoing by the son of former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden and that he had not been contacted by any foreign lawyers about the case.

But Biden has to be guilty if not for any other reason because he is a democrat.
And Trump has to be innocent because he is a republican and above all else he says he is innocent and remember the call was perfect.

@flutherother So here’s what I find funny. The AntAC penned a denial of any wrongdoing and then proceeded to smear Lutsenko. Yet wasn’t it Lutsenko that replaced Shokin? That was the guy that Joe Biden was happy to see in place, called him a solid guy. So…was Uncle Joe lying…again…or is the AntAC just running a smear campaign to keep from having people look at them? Both seem likely to me.

And you still refuse to answer why did Pompeo lie about knowing about the call when in fact he was in on that very call?

Or why are Republicans stumbling and seem very nervous on every news channel about said call?

And did your Orange hair baboon just do the exact same thing with China?

@SQUEEKY2 your sources for these things?

Every news channel except Fox and that other extreme fright wing one.

Here is just one…
https://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/2019/10/i-was-on-the-phone-call-pompeo-after-insisting-he-had-no-knowledge-admits-he-was-on-trump-ukraine-call/

There are countless more.

Before you scoff and shred it as left wing propaganda a lot of other news outlets are saying the same thing and videos clearly shows he is nervous about said call, why,if it was so perfect and innocent?

@SQUEEKY2 When you give me a source or a citation, I always look at them. If I disagree with them for political bias, it is always with a specific point. Unless you are using a blanket source such as Snopes or something and swearing everything they put out is truth. Then I will disagree and would likely show examples.
As for this one, watching the response from Pompeo, I didn’t get that he stated that he was on the phone call. The reporter asked about 6 questions at once and Pompeo was responding to some of them. What it sounded like he said (to me) was a clarification as to what question he was responding to..“As for was I on the phone call, I was on the phone call?” It sounded like he was clarifying what the question was about…not an admission he was on there. His response therefore was not really a dodge…it was an answer he would have given if he was not on the phone call.

And I didn’t see that he was nervous about anything.

@seawulf575 You are simply wrong to suggest that Lutsenko and AntAC are equally corrupt. George P Kent, Charge d’Affaires in the Embassy of the United States wrote to the Deputy Prosecutor General in Kiev in April 2016 said this about the investigation into AntAC:

“We are completely satisfied that the assistance in question has only been used for those purposes and, as stated above do not see any grounds from our perspective as the donor who provided the assistance for an investigation into their use. Given the above, we reject allegations that Mr Sakvarelidze, or anyone within the Prosecutor General’s Office with who we worked, could have misused these funds since they were never under their control. The investigation into the actions of the Anti-Corruption Action Centre, based on the assistance they have received from us, is similarly misplaced.

“As voiced by European Union Ambassador Jan Tombinski, we are gravely concerned about this investigation for which we see no basis and which appears to us to be an attempt to intimidate those in the Prosecutor General’s Office most committed to combating corruption, as well as non-governmental partners and outspoken activists.”

These are strong words from the US Embassy which leave no doubt that AntAC was combatting corruption in the Ukraine.

You will note too that this letter was written in April 2016, a full three months before US Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch took up her post. Lutsenko’s claim that Ambassador Yovanovitch gave him a do-not-prosecute list that forced him to close the investigation into AntAC is false as the investigation was already closed by this time.

You will find a copy of the letter here

Your right wing Gods really can do no wrong in your eyes, and it was just brought to light he did the same thing with China asking them to investigate the Bidenes and you still se no wrong, you don’t think Trump is doing this for his own political advantage, abusing the power of his office using a foreign power to try and dig dirt on a political opponent ?

@flutherother so the US ambassador gives Lutsenko a do-not-investigate list and and AntAC is on it. And then someone from that office also says everything with AntAC is fine? You see the problem here, right?

@SQUEEKY2 He probably is doing this for political advantage, but not the way you think. You are seeing it as him asking China to investigate the Bidens. He made the statement to a reporter on the tarmac on his way to FL. China was nowhere in sight. But I suspect he did it as a way of tickling the dragon’s tail…get the left wound up. What he said really wasn’t anything. It amounted to “If it was me, I’d investigate”. There is no request, there is no pressure, there is no quid pro quo…there is nothing. Except something to spin up the left. What you don’t seem to catch is that the more the Dems go crazy and push impeachment, the more Trump goes up in the polls.

@SQUEEKY2

Rule 1) Dictator Wannabe can do no wrong

Rule 2) Read Rule #1

I think @seawulf575 thinks his Passport for the Aryan Nations will get him off the hook!

@Tropical_Willie That’s what I have been saying and our extremist defending him like he is proves it,thanks.

@seawulf575 I’m not sure what your point is but the investigation into AntAC was shut down on 30 May 2016 due to the absence of any crime.

@flutherother My point is that part of the concern with AntAC is the possible corruption involved that might also reach into our own government. When you have a US ambassador pushing to keep investigations from happening and when our government puts extreme pressure on the Ukrainian government to fire a state prosecutor, those things sound suspect. When $4.4M gets routed to AntAC and it seems odd and that same group is on the do-not-investigate list, it looks even more odd. So if there was indeed corruption on our end and we were putting pressure on Ukraine to avoid investigations, things like AntAC saying they did nothing wrong or using a potentially tainted investigation as proof are meaningless. Now that the primary players are no longer in power in the US, it might be possible to look at it again and have some confidence of a valid conclusion. If that investigation says everything is hunky-dory, then all is good. But right now I see potentially damaged goods for what has been done.

@seawulf575 What is suspect is the “do not investigate” list that Lutsenko claims was given him by Marie Yovanovitch, the US ambassador. The spurious claims against AntAC were dismissed several months before she took office and I am not aware of any evidence that the list actually exists or ever existed.

@flutherother Unless Lutsenko kept a copy, which he may have done, there probably is no evidence. But the question really becomes…why would he make something that up? It’s too easily disproven and really, gains him nothing. And again…if our government was involved with Ukrainian corruption (which Biden’s coercion would point to), then the AntAC investigation could be tainted and the timing of Yovanovitch being put into place is meaningless….just another corrupt pawn.
Let’s look at what we actually know. We know, from his own words, that Biden threatened to withhold a $1B loan to the Ukraine unless they fired their state prosecutor. We know that there was an investigation into AntAC at about the same time…at about the time of the transition of Lutsenko to the state prosecutor position. We know (from his own words) that Biden felt Lutsenko was a solid guy. We know that Lutsenko claims he was given a list of people and organizations he should not investigate from the US Ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch. We know that AntAC claims (in a rebuttal to Lutsenko’s interview with John Solomon) to be upstanding and that they have done nothing wrong, and that they claim Lutsenko is not a solid guy.
Sorry…the coincidences are pretty extraordinary. As they say…timing is everything. It looks like there is something there that should probably be looked at if for no other reason than to put doubt to rest.

I would agree that all this requires looking into and I guess the Trump impeachment process will be doing just that.

One other interesting fact. Lutsenko himself, on 12 May 2016, the day he was appointed Prosecutor General, stated that cases against the AntAC are “so delusional that they simply dishonour the Prosecutor General’s Office of Ukraine.”

That is his own words.

But there isn’t an absence of a crime. The YouTube video is,to me, a confession by Biden.

Trump is guilty too.

They should both be held accountable for their actions. IMO….

@MrGrimm888 I see the Biden video as evidence of Biden’s innocence rather than his guilt. Had he committed a crime he would not have bragged about it in public while being filmed. Corruption is never so transparent.

The text that introduces the video is misleading. The $3,000,000 it claims Hunter Biden received corruptly was in fact his salary over the five years he worked for Burisma when he was getting $50,000 a month. He may have been over paid and it might have been unethical for him to accept it but it isn’t criminal and the Ukrainian authorities aren’t investigating the Bidens.

^I respect your opinion. But I disagree. My inferrance, was that Biden abused his power, and seemed to brag about it….

I don’t judge Trump, by anything else than what he publicly says. In this instance, Biden inflicted damage, to himself. Just like Trump does…

@flutherother of course the impeachment process won’t look into Biden. It will steer clear. Just like Mueller did. Mueller accepted the Steele Dossier as fact, even knowing it was opposition research. He never tried to verify it, never tried to discover how the information was garnered and never once looked at if the FBI had acted appropriately or not. In my mind, walking in cold to start an investigation, I would be looking at all of that…just to cover all my bases. This impeachment inquiry is really just a political scam…it will not seek justice, only political gain.

Poo-pooing the upcoming inquiry as political theater rings suspiciously of denial of the dumbell’s flagrant criminality. More to the point, just as with the Mueller probe, the fool is not alone in the consequences of his crime. Everyone in his inner circle, who overheard the conversation including Pence is per force complicit in the fool’s crime. The idiot’s big mouth is once again the instrument for the destruction of his inner circle as well as himself!! At the very minimum this inquiry will expose a sleaze show so spectacular that the Mueller indictments pale by contrast. The accusations against Biden for example are a joke compared to Giuliani’s actual machinations in Ukraine and we shall witness once again the the consequences which must accompany an unprincipled scumbag’s elevation to our highest office.

Uh just watched a video that conservatives at the time wanted this Ukraine guy fired as well and a letter they signed proves it,had nothing to do with Biden’s son.
That said and I know this will shock wulfie if Biden abused his power of office to do this and found it was illegal then he should indeed pay for it.
BUT that doesn’t excuse TRUMP and what he did was an abuse of power and indeed should pay for it, but of course the Don Father can do no wrong in some peoples eyes.
oh and here is the video….
https://youtu.be/BnTfo-G0NiI

@stanleybmanly salivating at the upcoming inquiry rings suspiciously of the blind support of the Russia collusion investigation. Gee…let’s review that. I called it a witch hunt with no basis in fact and you swore up and down I was a fool and that Trump was going to jail. How’d that end for you? I know that for the American people, it ended with us out tens of millions of dollars and a whole lot of social divide, all thanks to the obstructionist Dems. So here we go again. We have a whistleblower that worked with Schiff (or his close staff) before writing the complaint. The complaint is rife with inaccuracies and is, admittedly by the wb, second hand information at the best. Now we have Schiff lying about having contact with the wb prior to the complaint, we find the wb failed to tell the IG about his contact with Schiff’s brood prior to the complaint, the wb is a registered Democrat who used to work in the Obama WH until Trump was elected and he was moved. The Dems started an “impeachment inquiry” in the absolutely most partisan and slip-shod way, keeping Republicans out of the loop, and refusing to give the POTUS even his Constitutional rights (such as legal representation) in a situation like this. All in all, it smacks of nothing but a contrived story that is being played out for the benefit of trying to make the public think the Dems are actually doing something. They are…they are wasting time and money…again.

@seawulf575 The Mueller Report was titled “Report On The Investigation Into Russian Interference In The 2016 Presidential Election”. It wasn’t all about Trump nor was Trump exonerated.

It found plenty of evidence of interference in the electoral process by Russian Military Intelligence. eg:

Unit 26165 GRU military cyber unit dedicated to targeting military, political, governmental, and non-governmental organizations outside of Russia. It engaged in computer intrusions of U.S. persons and organizations, as well as the subsequent release of the stolen data, in order to interfere in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

Unit 74455 GRU military unit with multiple departments that engaged in cyber operations. It engaged in computer intrusions of U.S. persons and organizations, as well as the subsequent release of the stolen data, in order to interfere in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

The report wasn’t a waste of money and if people dismiss its findings you can be sure it will happen again, and again with the potential to incapacitate the United States without a shot being fired. I am not exaggerating.

Waste of time? 35 indictments. 18 convictions Not only was Mueller’s work not a waste of time or money, but it resulted in convictions of a huge chunk of Trump’s closest operatives from his inner circle. Mueller stated that he was prevented from nailing the fool for obstruction of justice due to the determination by his superiors that a sitting President was immune to prosecution for the offense. But the shakeout from Mueller’s work is by no means over, and meanwhile the accusation of the whistle blower and Schiff’s so called dishonesty are both meaningless in regards to whether the fool has once again talked his impossibly stupid ass and everyone in the room AND on the line straight into jail.

@flutherother Almost correct. However what you missed was the letter from Rod Rosenstein that started the investigation. Here is a link:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/17/us/politics/document-Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.html

As you can see, the tie between Russia and Trump is one of the primary investigative points. So yes, the investigation really was all about Trump. And as part of that investigation, if you read the Mueller report, you find he took everything the FBI did without any question, he accepted the Steele Dossier and all its claims as valid, and started from there. That sort of shoddy investigation is, indeed, a waste of time and money.

And, in case you were unaware, in October of 2016, the POTUS Obama stated that they were aware of Russians hacking the DNC computers and they had determined it didn’t impact the election. Odd how it turned from that to Trump-orchestrated-everything after the election, isn’t it? Oh! and do you also remember Hillary challenging Trump to say if he would accept the outcome of the election? She swore she would. That lasted until Nov 7th. No…the Russian interference was minor at best. It was used as Kabuki Theater for political reasons.

By the way, why did the Russians prefer Trump? Why would one thug prefer another as President of the United States, and how’s THAT working out for him?

I can’t open your link, but anyway In five years time Trump will no longer be relevant but the Russians and other malign agents will still be there.

@stanleybmanly your evidence that Russia prefers Trump? That is the popular talking point and has been ever since the bogus Russia collusion claims started off. Where is the proof? And don’t try that “any fool knows” garbage. You made a statement, back it up.

@flutherother here is a different site for that letter

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download

But even Obama noted that Russia trying to interfere with our elections are nothing new. They do it all the time. Here’s the part that no one can actually answer, or that they try to gloss over: What did they actually do and how much did it influence anything? They supposedly took out ads on social media. But no one can really say they had any significant impact. Then they supposedly hacked the DNC computers and released emails. Here is the squirrelly part of that: So what? They didn’t release the emails until very shortly before the election and most people were already decided on who they would vote for. So again…who really knows what was in those emails? Did everyone supposedly read them all and it swayed their votes? And the real kicker…if the emails showed such a horrendous side of Hillary and the Dems, did she really deserve to win? That is the argument…that those emails were so bad that it swayed the vote….and it’s all Trump’s and the Russians’ fault. We are supposed to ignore the actual content I guess because no one can really, or will really, say what was in them that was so bad as to change the course of the election.
It is all this smoke and mirrors that made a huge deal out of what amounts to sour grapes by the Dems.

So @seawulf575 what are you trying to get out of this thread?
All of us are agreeing with you IF what Biden did was illegal then he should with out a doubt be held accountable,we are agreeing.
But if you are trying to make your orange hair god innocent,NOT going to happen, but is that what you want us to believe that the Don Father is just innocent and did no wrong,NOT going to fly but heck if an impeachment is started and ole Donny is innocent(yeah right) then I guess you showed us.
What are you trying to prove??

@seawulf575 That’s as if I said to you “Look, I know this guy is trying to poison you he has made several attempts and here is the evidence” and your reply is ” Oh it doesn’t matter because I feel fine”.

A great majority of the German people thought Hitler was the best thing that ever happened to Germany ,and look how well that turned out.

But someone want a free pass for Trumps *BUT EVERYONE ELSE” (especially if they are Dems) is guilty without any direct evidence!

@seawulf575. I think it would benefit you, to accept that Trump is indeed guilty of the Ukrainian crimes.
The evidence is piling up, that Trump, and his cohorts, knew the were committing crimes. They weren’t trying to cover it up, unless they knew it was criminal action.

To me, impeachment proceedings, should begin. If you are truly impartial, you should concede, that Trump probably did all the things he is being blamed for. Trump doesn’t seem to think, these activities are crimes. The law says otherwise, and the FACT that his cohorts tried to cover it up, should go against your declared loyalty to the law.

As I’ve said Biden fucked up too.

Buy at what point, will you admit that Trump is equally, or more guilty? ..

@MrGrimm888 I find it funny that that statement, ” I think it would benefit you, to accept that Trump is indeed guilty of… ”, I have heard tons of times before. Especially with the Russian Collusion claims. How’d that turn out? Oh yeah…I was right and those telling me to accept the crimes were wrong.
At what point will I admit Trump is equally or more guilty? When I see something that is actual proof. Just like with the Russian Collusion claim. What you have is a lot of hyped up stuff. You have a whistleblower claim!!!! except it is full of inaccuracies, is admittedly second hand information at best, and now seems like it was created with the help of Adam Schiff. That isn’t proof of anything except most likely a political smear attempt. When I look at what Trump is being accused of and compare it to what the evidence says….the phone transcript, the discussions with Zelenskyy, et al,...I cannot see a crime, Trump was talking about corruption in Ukraine. Biden, by his own admission, was a part of that. Trump was offering to have the AG call his Ukrainian counterparts to offer help. He mentioned Biden exactly one time (two if you count “Biden’s son”). Focusing on one or two words out of the entire conversation is usually a bogus attempt to blow something out of proportion. There was no offer of reward or threat of action if they didn’t look at Biden. Zelenskyy has agreed with this. The claim that Trump withheld support until after the phone call is partially true. He did. But for that to be considered the quid pro quo, the Ukrainians would have to know it had happened. They didn’t find out Trump paused the aid until well after the phone call. Can’t hold something over someeone’s head if they don’t know you are holding it.
It is the job of the POTUS to look at how we conduct ourselves overseas and to look into corruption. And with Ukraine in particular, we actually have a treaty for dealing with exactly that. It is the job of the POTUS to interact with foreign leaders. So far all I see is that Trump was doing his job. An

@seawulf575 . Keep eating Trump’s bullshit sandwiches. Find comfort, in the heard of sheep.
“I find it funny, that that statement, ” could include your entirety, of contributions to Fluther.
Laugh away, when the proof is in your face. Cry, when it is presented. You’ve worked hard, at establishing that pattern…

Maybe we should call you “bah“wulf575. You are a sheep, in wolve’s clothing. Enjoy your bullshit sandwiches, and sleep well, knowing that you are capable of being a wulf, yet, desicide to ingest, and spread ignorance. I thought you were better than that….But….

@MrGrimm888 were any of my actual comments about what is going on actually false? Were they wrong? Or did they just not support what the MSM and the Dems are saying? I’m not eating anyone’s bullshit sandwiches…I’m looking at things for myself. Please…if I am wrong about something, please show me the proof.
As I said before…this entire “impeachment inquiry” smells exactly like the Russian Collusion story. Democrats accusing the president of doing exactly what they, themselves, did. Russia Collusion: Hillary and the DNC work with foreign government agents including Russia to get dirt on Trump. Exactly what they accused Trump of. Ukraine: Biden forces, through coercion, Ukraine to fire a state prosecutor. Pretty much exactly what they are accusing Trump of: using coercion and pressure to get Ukraine to do something they might not otherwise do. What are the differences? Well, for one, the evidence. Russia Collusion: Steele Dossier that was treated as gospel and used as a basis to spy on the Trump campaign even though it was noted to be possible Russian disinformation and unreliable. Ukraine: Biden’s own words. And the other aspect that is different: the MSM and the left make excuses for the Dems while trying desperately to blow anything into something they can use against Trump.

@seawulf575 . On the whole, you aren’t going to extremes. But, you are clearly giving Trump, more of a pass, than you do others. Of you can’t see that, I can’t help you.

Your claims of impartiality, hold little water, in these types of threads. If you intend to defend Trump, in all matters, you are NOT impartial.

@MrGrimm888 Take a look back and re-evaluate most of my posts. I am accused of giving Trump a pass or trying to cover for him. Yet isn’t it true that 99% of the people saying that are actually doing the exact opposite? Trying to crucify the guy over nothing or worse, over bogus “facts”? When I call for sanity, I am the enemy and am giving the POTUS a pass.
Look at this thread as a perfect example. I asked the question, I purposely pointed to the incongruity between how people are attacking Trump and trying to cover for Biden (or give him a pass) for what amounts to being the exact same crime. I did not say that Trump was innocent, especially in the question. The question was not a protection of Trump, it was put out to identify and better understand why the incongruity exists. Since that time, I have stuck to facts with the occasional speculation which I identify as such.
When I do, like I just did with you, show exactly why I don’t believe all the hoo-haw about Trump, it is done with facts and logic. It isn’t some blind support…I leave that to the left to do with their players. It might very well be that Trump is dirty, but so far, I don’t see a single thing that really points to that. If future “evidence” were to appear, I would do what I always do…research it and see if it seems reliable. But right now, there isn’t a single thing that really bubbles up to the fiasco the Dems are pushing. What I DO see is a whole lot of allegations and innuendo….just like I always do in cases like these. If you go back and look at the claims during Russia Collusion, you could almost cut and paste them here. And, as I have repeatedly pointed out, that turned out to be contrived in the extreme.

But go back and review. I generally don’t believe Trump is guilty of most of the stuff the left accuses him of. And I don’t believe it because I can research back and find the truth of things and it isn’t the story the left is peddling. I don’t understand how so many people can be drawn into those lies when there are actual facts to look at that poke holes in it. And this question is sort of an extension of that effort to understand.

But you accept every Fright wing link as pure holy word.
Talk about being one sided.
Also how do you explain 35 indictments and 18 convictions, plus Mulluers report DID NOT exonerate Trump, that you seem to think gave him a key straight to heaven for being so pure.

So let’s answer your question NO the left is not making excuses for Biden, but why is the right refusing to believe Trump is just as guilty?

@seawulf575 Hold on a second Sparky. Before awarding yourself the trophy for impeccable objectivity, I have some questions on the issue. Let’s begin with how all of the pillars in your disinformation campaign rest on smoke you assert as facts. The question itself ASSUMES the left is making excuses, as though It is an accepted fact that Biden committed a crime. That’s always the way with you alt right whackadoos. Want another example of your spotless impartiality? How about the other exhibit you introduce as “fact” to bolster your case built on smoke—that would be the notion that Trump and Biden’s actions are IDENTICAL crimes. You slip
2 lies into your argument as “facts” with that one. The first is that it is acknowledged as fact that the 2 actions are equivalent, and next, that this “fact” marks Biden as guilty as the fool. You should change your monicker to @smoke screen575.

And let’s not forget that his whole Biden thing was created to distract us from the fact that Trump abused his presidential powers for his own political ends. That’s what we should focus on.

Excellent point—distraction

@stanleybmanly while you are trying desperately to find a chink in my claims, I already gave you examples of people on the left that were trying to protect or deflect from Biden. Kamala Harris publicly stated we shouldn’t be bothering Joe…we should just leave him alone. Sorry…that is again a fact. Not something I made up, not an innuendo….a fact. Now, let’s go to this thread for more examples. I have @ragingloli trying to justify Biden’s actions as official administration policy…which only really makes it worse. I have @SQUEEKY2 jumping on board that and challenging me to defend against it…which I did. I have you making personal attacks for even daring to ask the question. So far I am 3 for 3 of liberals that are making excuses and covering for Biden. So while you might want to act like I am making stuff up, this is all reality. Very easily proven, very easily verified.

@flutherother So let me get this straight…what you are saying is that Trump brought up Biden as a distraction from him bringing up Biden? It isn’t surprising that @stanleybmanly jumped on that…he was getting frantic to find some way to avoid having to look at corruption amongst the Dems. He seems better when he can just call it distraction and move on (if only I would too!) But I really expected more out of you.

Still going on and on and on that we are making excuses for Biden,even after all of us agreed that if he abused his power of office and committed a crime should be held accountable.

And still giving your idiot a get out of jail free card and refuse to believe he did anything wrong.
Your logic has a serious flaw in it.

@smokewulf575 Now who’s dodging and weaving? You LIE about Biden committing a crime. Insist that the lie is a fact, then find the Democrats, press, DOJ, FBI corrupt for not acceding to YOUR lie. It’s about as crooked an argument as you could invent.

Everybody to the left of Neo-Nazi and Ayran Nation is against Wulfie’s hero.

@SQUEEKY2 and @stanleybmanly could say Biden needs to be brought upon charges and Wulfie just wants him summarily executed, no trial needed ‘cause he’s a Dem.

I am begining to think he thinks every problem there is is a dem/libs fault hell he probably thinks Nixon was innocent as well.

@seawulf575. No. What I think is that Trump has attacked Biden, without any supporting evidence, as a way of distracting us from an abuse of his presidential power for which there is evidence.

@flutherother what abuse of power?

Oh Lord…

Face Palm

@seawulf575 is right, when you’re a dictator there is no Abuse of Power just business as usual.

^But he doesn’t doncider Trump, a dictator. Or wannabe dictator.

@seawulf575 , You seem not to understand the charge against Trump. He is being accused of arranging a quid pro quo deal, using taxpayer money, to have a foreign head of state dig up dirt on a potential political rival in the 2020 presidential election, in exchange for foreign aid. Nothing that Hillary Clinton or any other Democrat has done comes close.

Here is what we know for certain. Trump cut off aid to the Ukraine shortly before the 7/25 phone call. According to the White House transcript of the phone call, Trump requested that Zelensky look into Biden’s activity because “it would be great” if he do so. Shortly after the phone call, Trump reinstated foreign aid.

It looks highly suspicious, worth examining for a possible impeachable offense.

@LostInParadise I understand the accusations against Trump very well. And I understand the accusations are not realistic. When you line up what we know as fact (not what is speculated on MSNBC or CNN), there is nothing there. First we have the telephone transcript. There is absolutely no quid pro quo there. Nothing. Then we have the issue of holding up aid. Yes, that could be viewed as coercion to get Ukraine to do something…if they knew about it. According to Zelenskyy (and I don’t know why he would make this up), he hadn’t even heard the aid was postponed until well after the conversation with Trump. Kinda hard to make a coercion case if the people don’t know you are threatening them. And because he didn’t know it was held up, everything on that phone conversation is pretty much exactly what it sounded like…a couple of world leaders having a friendly talk. These are things we know. We know that it is the duty of the Executive Branch of our government to look into potential corruption by our people…that is one of the jobs of the POTUS. We know there is an active treaty with Ukraine to offer cooperative support to address corruption by either party. These are all facts.
Then we get to the stuff that isn’t fact. Most of the “whistleblower” complaint isn’t fact. He claimed Trump asked Zelenskyy 8 times to look into Biden. That is NOT a fact…the transcript shows the word BIDEN came up exactly twice. Once as an adjective (Biden’s Son) and the other as the proper noun (Biden). And there was not demand to have Ukraine look into these folks. The “whistleblower” complaint says Trump repeatedly asked for the investigation into Biden as a favor. This is NOT a fact. The transcript again shows us that the “favor” that Trump asked for was for Ukraine to look into Crowdstrike. That is not Biden. There is evidence that Ukraine tried to assist Hillary Clinton in the last election with spying on and smearing Trump and his associates. And because Crowdstrike was a player in all this and they had dealings with Ukraine, it is, again, looking into corruption and foreign interference into an election. Don’t you agree that should be looked at?
There is the claim that Trump is trying to get Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden to help him in the 2020 election. This is NOT a fact. There is nothing pointing to that at all…except hysteria by the Dems and the MSM. Biden is not that strong of a candidate…never was. He makes way too many gaffes and has way to many issues to be considered a strong candidate. He is not the candidate the Dems have selected and probably isn’t even one of the strongest. So trying to get a foreign government to dig up dirt on him makes no sense. Unlike when Hillary and the Dems did it….Trump WAS the primary candidate and WAS a strong contender.
When you stop and sift through what is fact and what is speculation, there really is nothing to any of this. But you nailed the Dem’s strategy on the head: Make the accusations sound really bad so you can fall back on “this needs to be looked into”. I have played that game on these pages. I could accuse you of molesting 6 year olds. I could probably even have an anonymous 6 year old tell me of your evil deeds. That sounds horrible! It should probably be looked into, right? That is the sort of game the Dems have played since Nov 8th, 2016.

@flutherother, @Tropical_Willie, and @MrGrimm888 I asked a sincere question. @flutherother made that accusation that Trump has exercised an abuse of power and there is evidence. I’ve heard nothing of any of this. What I find very telling, though, is that as soon as I ask about it, you all start acting like I’m some sort of fool, instead of actually answering a simple question. What that tells me is that you have absolutely nothing but more conjecture and speculation and innuendo…no real evidence. Kinda what I thought. And just so we are clear…you are all WAY too predictable!

@seawulf575

Take your “Predicable EARPLUGS” out !

@seawulf575 , When Trump says “it would be great” if Biden was investigated, that sure sounds like a personal favor to me. Trump did not suggest that the Ukraine would benefit. Even without quid pro quo, the emoluments clause of the Constitution forbids elected officials from receiving benefits from foreign officials. I don’t know how to place a dollar value on getting dirt on Biden, but it must be worth quite a bit to Trump, considering all that he is paying Giuliani to work on the case.

The transcript from the White House was a summary of the phone call. We do not know how many times Biden was mentioned. As to Biden’s chances of being nominated, he is still considered the front runner. It is hard to imagine that Zelensky did not know about aid being cut off. There is still not a shred of evidence that Joe Biden did anything wrong. The prosecutor he helped get rid of was also opposed to by our allies for not doing anything to oppose corruption.

@LostInParadise actually, Trump DID suggest Ukraine would benefit. Most of the discussion was about the corruption in Ukraine and Zelenskyy was talking about what he was doing to address it. And “it would be great” has no quid pro quo, and has dual meanings beyond that. Looking into the corruption that the events that were expressed in Biden’s brag might be a really good thing for Ukraine. It might be that Trump would find satisfaction in it. But let’s be honest…most of the investigation conversation involved Crowdstrike and the underhanded use of foreign governments by Hillary and the DNC…possibly even the Obama Whitehouse. Don’t you agree that corruption at that level should be investigated honestly?

One set of crooks at a time. Personally, I think it prudent to begin with the set which confessed on national television, then proceeded to compound their crime in front of the national press corps on the Whitehouse lawn.

@seawulf575 Your argument is “WHATABOUT”. . . .anyone but BOZO.

Not any of us argued that if Biden committed a crime should be held accountable, but we said so should Trump, and he still refuses to believe The Don Father did no wrong.
And the dems are just trying to bring the orange hair god down, even after you post link after link saying Donny boy fucked up,he just doesn’t believe any of them claiming they all are from left wing news sites and that don’t cut it.
Still thinks Mueller’s report cleared him,when it did not exonerate Trump and was stated so, but still thinks Trump boy is innocent.

@seawulft575 . I thought I responded appropriately, to your question. I condemned Biden. I even said he should be removed from candidacy. I’m not sure what else you want from me…

I guess he wants us to call for the death penalty on Biden, and totally exonerate Trump from any wrong doing.

@SQUEEKY2 as I identified in the original question, there are plenty of people…all on the left…that feel we shouldn’t even look at Biden. Forget IF he committed a crime…we should just not look. And there are even some on these pages that feel that way. I’m trying to understand why.

@Tropical_Willie Might I point out that I asked the original question and that it was about Biden? It is fools like YOU that are playing WHATABOUT. Every time you try to deflect to Trump.

^What’s to understand? Trump would not need deflection, if he just stood by the truth?

@MrGrimm888 funny how when someone asks a question about Trump and I mention Obama I’m deflecting. I have asked a question about Biden and others are talking about Trump…yourself included. Deflecting? Yep. And your question here just shows how far down the rabbit hole you are with that deflection. “What’s to understand? Trump would not need deflection, if he just stood by the truth?” The question was not about Trump. How about this: Biden would not need deflection if we just did an investigation.

How about the White House just turning over the notes they were subpoenaed for? Let them share their incriminating evidence, if they have any. What are they afraid of?

How about if the Dems put some legitimacy into the entire process? What are they afraid of?

Like what @seawulf575; let Bozo take over all branches of government?

One dictator in charge, judge, jury and executioner .

He’d first send all the gold in Fort Knox to private vault in Ukraine.

No, @Tropical_Willie things like including ALL of the House, not just Democrats. Actually having a vote to see if the whole House wants to start the inquiry. Establishing the actual crime that they want to look at and evaluate instead of the shotgun method of investigating until you think you find something. Hey! How ‘bout this? Let Trump’s legal counsel sit in on all the interviews and committee hearings. You know…do things the proper way instead of the deranged way.

WE all know your recommendation to Trump “give them nothing.” Because it all would be incriminating.

”‘cause I’m a stable genius I don’t have to follow the US Constitution.”

Speaking of deranged, how about his dumping the Kurds under the Turkish bus ?

Ok let me try again, NO one on this thread is making any excuses for Biden,and all of us have said if he committed a crime should be held accountable, as for any one else on the left making excuses for Biden HOW THE FUCK SHOULD WE KNOW WHY!!??
One thing I am certain of he didn’t do it for his own political gain, even quite a few republicans wanted the guy gone, SHIT a lot more than just the democrats wanted the guy gone.
BUT if he is guilty of an abuse of power than should be held accountable.
HAPPY NOW??

@smokewulf575. You mean fairness the way Republicans included ALL of the House in pursuit of Clinton? Is that the sort of fairness you wish for the snake in the Whitehouse?

One thing that this question has shown me that the Democrats are lying,law breaking, scum bags,who only have their own interests at heart.
Conservatives, are honest hard working give the wealthy everything because trickle down works so well.

Missed the J.K. and ~ ~ ~ ~ @SQUEEKY2 !

but hey @seawulf575 will agree with you.

Well he always deals in FACTS so he must be right?
Although 99% of those facts lean very heavy right but that isn’t his fault,and anything else is just left wing propaganda.
You have to admit Bright fart, and Fux news deals only in facts.

@seawulf575 . Again. I have supported investigations into Hillary, Biden, and even Obama…