Should American style Democracy still be the envy of the rest of the modern world today?

The principles are admirable, but the existing situation isn’t democracy. It’s oligarchy presented as democracy.

Being allowed (maybe) one vote FOR a single candidate per race, where two “parties” have dominated politics to the point that votes for other than their choices are considered “wasted” votes, is tyranny by political parties and big-money donations and media ownership.

And it’s enabled by our inadequate voting system. Unfortunately, too few people are aware of the problem. If votes could be cast “for” (or “against”) any number of candidates in each race, it could go a LONG way to limiting the ability of big parties to monopolize elections by offering the only two “viable” candidates.

And of course, all the money allowed to be involved in political donations is sick beyond belief, especially when huge donations are allowed by corporations and PACs.

Lol.

In my opinion yes, notwithstanding some of the problems, of which we are all aware , most of which involve money.

Anyone who has had the opportunity or misfortune to be in some of those places knows what I am talking about. I am beginning to wonder if there aren’t more America sucks people in America than there are anyplace else.

I’m kidding of course, but my point is most (not all, but most) people with anything that resembles an education who live in places where the head of state is a killer without a conscience and akin to a mafia Don (like the Assad family, or the house of Saud), where they can be imprisoned without due process, or Habeas corpus, and where they have nothing whatever to say about the course of their own lives, are very aware of the difference in their lives and that of Americans. I don’t know that they are envious, but more people are inspired by it than the America sucks people would have you believe.

Part of the problem with America today is that it used to be the land of opportunity. The left is trying to turn it into the Socialist nations of yesteryear that failed miserably. It is trying to be turned into something that people know they don’t want.

Uncle Sam just had a blowjob.

Yes. Generally speaking. Socialism may be the way of the future but we’ll have to refine a system to make a system that works. And we’re Americans! We can do it!

@ucme
What are you saying?
Just sayin

@josie Oh you know…just trolling ;-}

Do you mean just Democracy? Or, America’s capitalism and life in general?

I think our democracy still is admirable, but it has flaws, and now other countries have “well functioning” democracies too. I think America used to feel more unique and ahead in certain ways regarding the power of the people, but now there are many countries. Some of the democracies are more socialist than America, but they are still democracies.

Many places around the world still have incredible amounts of poverty, hardship, lack of education, oppressive for women, and significant power given to religious leaders, which means power taken away from the people. If you don’t have the opportunity to travel, just watch that crazy 90 Day Fiance show and see the crap that goes on in other countries. Not all other countries, but it gives you a window.

I do fear America is losing some of what made it great, we’ll see what happens. I feel like the next ten years is an extremely important time. I think we need to ready ourselves for the next significant technology change as 5G and AI begin to take hold.

@ucme
Pretty serious question
Might merit a serious response from a serious contributor. Social or not.
My humble opinion.

@josie Yeah well big fella, it’s like they say…you pay your money & take your choice.
So flag if it makes you feel better, no sweat man.

@ucme

”...flag if it makes you feel better”

Why would I bother?

@kritiper Refine a system that works? Not with the current batch of proponents. They are all pushing for huge government that controls everything. They are power mongers. They are not looking at economics, they are not looking at reality. Most of what works is when the government steps out of the way and lets entrepreneurs do their thing. Look at Sweden for a working example. The federal government is very small with very little direct input on things. Which of the current batch of Socialists is actually calling for smaller, less intrusive federal government?

@josie Some of you roll that way.
Anyway, i’ve been playing with you & should probably come clean as to your original question.
The question was worded in a way that I saw as jerking off ones country, that’s all it was.

Was it ever?
I mean, beyond the masturbatory propaganda drilled into everyone’s heads.

@seawulf575 You forget that there are at least 20 forms of Socialism. Everybody has always created their own. Except Americans…
And you forget that every single democracy throughout history, without exception, has only lasted about 200 years maximum before evolving into something else. America is past due for change.

@josie Just as a footnote to our err, whatever it was. If ever you’re offended again by any of my posts, by all means, question my motives. Always happy to help those in need & remember…better out than in.

@kritiper and you seem to forget that most of the forms of Socialism fail miserably. In fact, the ones that seem to work really aren’t socialism at all…they are capitalistic in nature. Take Sweden as the perfect example. Yes, they offer healthcare and education. But look at how they do it. The federal government doesn’t run it. In fact, their federal government is very minor and unobtrusive. They help collect taxes and give money to the states who decide how to provide the services. In many cases it is private industries that are doing the actual services. Entrepreneurship is encouraged and incentivized. Now look at what every single Dem is proposing…huge, bloated federal government that has control over everything and will make all the decisions. That is what the USSR tried and it failed. That is what Venezuela had…and it failed. That is what many of the big time socialist nations had…and it fails every time. So while you might want to lecture me on Socialism, you might want to be a little realistic about what is being proposed.

@seawulf575 If Socialism in all it’s forms, both old and yet to be invented, are so bad, and our democracy is doomed to failure by ALL historical accounts, what do you think we’re headed for??
And try to be realistic!

@kritiper It is human nature. Democracy/Capitalism is a wonderful thing…right up until people start realizing they can vote themselves “freebies”. Then the situation moves on to Socialism/Communism which generally ends up running the car into the ditch and everyone wonders how they got there. Generally after that, there is a lot of mayhem and unrest and some fool will try to take power. Eventually the people will get tired of him/her and revolt, and then they try putting democracy/capitalism back into place.
To say we are going into Socialism because it is our time is just foolishness. And honestly, to say there are all these different forms of Socialism is foolishness. Socialism is a situation where the government controls all production and distribution of goods. It is based on the idea that everyone has a claim on everyone else. So if I do nothing, am unemployed and have no interest in getting a job, I have a claim on your hard work and your money. I get it because you will be taxed heavily to pay for all the stuff I will get for free. I, on the other hand, don’t pay taxes and just have the government support me.
What everyone forgets when they start dreaming about how great Socialism will be, is that it puts control of everything into the hands of those same people that have shown they don’t have the fiscal responsibility to balance a checkbook. The same group of people that have shown extraordinary levels of incompetence and immaturity. Do you believe that our government will suddenly become responsible, fiscally responsible, and competent overnight?
You have mentioned several times the various forms of Socialism. Let’s take the liberal nirvana: Sweden. As I mentioned before, it is an interesting case study. They had a booming economy at one point and then Socialism moved in. And they did all the things our current crop of Dem Socialists are suggesting. They taxed the wealthy, they taxed corporations, they created regulations on top of regulations. They tried putting the unions in charge of the businesses. What happened is that all the businesses just started leaving. Ikea, Volvo…all were leaving. Thankfully (for them) they had leaders that recognized they were the problem. So they changed things…shrinking the size and influence of the government, cutting out a lot of the regulations, all sorts of things. Now, they look more like the US did in the 1800’s. Not from a technological aspect, but from the point that the federal government is small and has specific jobs. Most of the operation of the “government” is at the state level…as it was designed in this country.
So here’s the question: why go to Socialism? Why not just shrink the size of the government and move the power to the states….again?

@seawulf575 People want socialism because they want free stuff from others? Don’t you think you have a victim mentality?

@seawulf575 We’ve already been down that road. It would only mean that we would have to overcome the same problems we did back then, to arrive even sooner to where we are now. No other democracy in history has ever evolved into it’s younger self, like you seem to suggest. Care to try again??
(And I don’t suggest that we move towards Socialism, but what else is there in our evolutionary process?)

Most people want some social services so the society is in a better state as a whole. It’s not purely selfish to get “free things.” Free education K-12 raises up all of society. Social security helped get rid of the poor houses for the elderly. Medicaid and child health programs helped curb poor people dying from simple illnesses that were easily treated and prevented.

When you are surrounded by poor, crime ridden, delapidated neighborhoods, is your own community, well being, and quality of life affected, even though you live behind the walls of the fancy schmancy community? Of course it is! We all do better if everyone is doing well.

Go to countries without social systems, without easily accessible free education through high school, without social security, seriously go. See the places where people live, not the tourist corners. You won’t want to live there.

@mazingerz88 really? They don’t? Huh. Medicare for All…free stuff for all. Free college….free stuff for all. I’ve even heard Living wage whether you work or not….free stuff for all. So I would suggest I’m not the one with a victim mentality, I would suggest you are the one that has the rose covered glasses on. Face it…right now we don’t have 100% of the population working. We have children, retirees, people that can’t find work, homeless, etc. as well as working people. But only about 40% of the population works. They are the ones paying the taxes. They are already paying for everything that is “free” for people and people want more. What do you think happens to their paychecks? It’s already been studied that Medicare for All alone would consume something like 92% of all the federal taxes taken in each year. Think only taxing the rich can make up the difference? Dream on.

@kritiper I suggest that we break the cycle. We elect people to make tough decisions and some of those decisions might not be popular, but would be the right things. Here’s a thought…learn the lessons the easy way. We already know what made this country great. It wasn’t giving stuff to people for free. It was being given the opportunity to succeed. It was not through onerous governmental regulation, it was with the government staying out of the way. It wasn’t through higher taxes…that has always hurt us. Why go forward into something that we can look around the world and see it doesn’t work? I pointed out Sweden for the example. They quickly (relatively) realized that Socialism wasn’t working. Their leaders made tough choices that weren’t popular in the slightest. But they were the right choices and people eventually realized that. And our people need to change their entitled attitudes into one of ability. And that applies from the richest CEO to the guy on welfare.

^^The problem with you is that you’re a racist. Especially against black Americans. You think white Americans are victims and you see citizens being helped by government through your taxes as nothing but pigs and chickens who were born to do nothing but gobble up on the trough and then die all on white people’s taxes. What this does is blind you from any possibility that in America socialist acts could work. You cite failures in Europe and that’s enough for you to say no.

@seawulf575 People on SS and Medicare paid into the system when they were young and working. Some of the people not working are part of a couple living in one household, so the income counts for two. Although, I will agree that the non-working spouse getting SS on top of the SS given to the working spouse is one of the things that probably could be addressed as unfairness in the system. Although, a spouse not working opens jobs for people who need the work. Same with people retiring. Young people need to work.

@mazingerz88 It always amazes me how full of shit your answers can be. You read sooooooo much into my answer and assigned it all to me. Here’s a clue: I don’t have preconceived ideas of who is on welfare, nor who pays the taxes. I know that there are more white people on welfare than any other ethnic group. And I don’t care. I have worked with blacks for the past 40+ years and every one of them had to pay taxes, just like me. I know that a minority of the population (all races) actually works and pays taxes. It’s just facts. What I find amusing is that when you don’t like what I am saying, you want to run to the racist deflections.
As for Socialism, here’s the kicker: It basically doesn’t work. It never has. At some point it crumbles under its own demands. Oh sure, you can go to Communism like in China…it works great. As long as you don’t mind the government telling you how many children you can have, what you are allowed to look at on the internet, what you are allowed to say, where you are allowed to live, etc, etc, etc. Their human rights record is sketchy at best…but that seems to be okay with all of you that want to push Socialism. After all, Socialism is an economic condition, Communism is the logical political condition to best support Socialism.
You seem to NOT want to talk about failures of Socialism. That says you are a fool that is destined to fall into the same traps others have fallen into before. Why not actually learn from others’ mistakes? Go back to burying your head in the sand….you’ll feel safer.

@JLeslie Yes, it is true that many people have paid into SS and Medicare their entire lives. And not the Democrats are campaigning on platforms that would steal all that money and not provide the services they were promised. Medicare-for-All means just that…they want to provide Medicare to everyone, whether they have paid into it or not. So now, all the people that have been paying into it aren’t going to have the same services available to them when they retire, AND they will now have to pay more in taxes so others can benefit from their life-long contributions.
Demanding that young people continue to work instead of retiring, says you recognize what a ponzi scheme SS is. You want to lay claim to the efforts of the young, demanding that they continue to work to pay for things they may not want or need. That is called slavery…demanding someone works to support the plantation.

@seawulf575 Everyone who pays into healthcare will use it eventually unless they drop dead suddenly from an accident, aneurism, or some other tragedy. Even if they do drop dead suddenly, someone they love probably needed to use the healthcare system. No one gets through life without they themselves, or a loved one, needing some medical care. If it’s a tax, then everything you ever paid in counts. If it’s paying a company while you’re insured, but then you stop paying for insurance, because you lost your job, then the $10k you paid over the last ten years while employed gets you nothing. If everyone pays the tax that’s more people paying into the system, so the payment should be a lower number overall, but we have to control costs to really make that happen. No matter what we need to stop the gouging in the system no matter how we pay for medical services.

Ponzi scheme, well, you might be surprised when I tell you that I don’t like the ponzi scheme aspect of some of the social systems either. I don’t like the system relying on younger people, but I am all for SS forcing people to “save” and basically pay into an insurance system for old age earnings. You can’t rely on people to save for themselves for retirement. Not in America.

Free education K-12 is what helped America become great, it is one of the foundations of fulfilling the ideals of a meritocracy. I know republicans who would be happy letting the whole education system get privatized. They reason if private industry can do it better we should let them. Thing is, they won’t. Not for the masses. Look around the world, you can’t find a safe, civilized, prosperous country that you would be willing to live in that doesn’t have K-12 for free for everyone.

Maybe Medicare for all and free college for all is too extreme, but the way it is now is too extreme too. We should all be looking for the reasonable compromise in my opinion, but mostly people are in their extreme corners.

In our country we have some social systems already, because we have already been through times without them and it was bad. People have amnesia, or a lack of understanding of history if they don’t see that.

Capitalism and competition are great, I mean that, but the free market doesn’t work for the consumer when there are monopolies, imbalance of supply and demand, collusion, and desperate times. Healthcare can fall under all of those. I’m not arguing for Obamacare as it is now by the way, I’ve always had a problem with how it’s set up, but thinking you can just leave healthcare in the hands of the free market won’t work.

^^Looking for reasonable compromises….leaving healthcare in the hands of the free market won’t work…

These are useless ideas for Americans who think the rest of the country just want free stuff at their expense. It’s a failure of imagination and victory for cynicism and narrow-mindedness. Socialist notions will not Make America Great Again.

@mazingerz88 I put healthcare in a different category than other things. It’s such an imbalance of power when a person is sick. They are easily taken advantage of. I’m ok with some copays and some other fees, it doesn’t have to be totally free.

^^Another envy of countries festering in corruption, American goverment whistle blowers who are honoring the oath they took. Right now here in DC. Truly inspiring.

@JLeslie There is one problem with your description of healthcare. You are assuming everyone will be working and everyone will be paying into it. That isn’t realistic. We typically have between about 35% and 42% of the population that actually works and pays taxes. If you suddenly want to give healthcare to all for free, that is a costly proposition. As I have mentioned, the studies show it will take about 92% of the tax money taken in to pay for it. That is before all other plans paid for by the government including military. So yeah, I or someone in my family will eventually need to see the doctor. But they can do that now. Why should I suddenly have to pay 60% of my wages to the government to be able to do that in the future? It would certainly be cheaper now for me.

@seawulf575 I’m not assuming that. Right now not everyone works. Premiums are paid by employers and by individual themselves. When I was in my 20’s I paid for insurance when I was able to get insurance through work (sometimes I had to wait 6 months to be eligible for a health plan) and I wish that money I paid in counted for healthcare for myself, but rather it was just profit for the insurer or helped pay for someone else’s care. There are a bunch of 20 year olds that choose not to take insurance, even when it wasn’t so expensive.

So, in the old system, which is basically the current system, we had people not paying in, but they had times when they needed healthcare, sometimes devastating illnesses, and then declaring bankruptcy. So, they don’t pay, I pay for them, and everyone who does pay picks up the slack to pay for those who don’t pay so the doctors and hospitals make money. We essentially support those who don’t pay anyway. We could still have some copays or deductibles, but getting rid of the profit the health insurers make and putting it towards paying for healthcare could help. We have to have more control on the cost too. In fact no matter what, we need to regulate it somehow, even if we don’t go full socialized medicine. Pharmaceutical companies should not be making billions in net profit while society pays for gouging prices. If you want to keep the profit in it, fine, I’m for some profit too, but there is a limit. We already have gouging laws, we as a society supposedly believe taking advantage of the sick, or those through tragedy is immoral, unethical, and illegal, and I would argue that also can be found in religious text, and how Americans can be ok with people not getting healthcare is illogical to me.

Even Trump said when he was running for office that he isn’t going to let people die in the streets, and then he turned to the other Republicans, and said, “maybe you all are, but I’m not.” Something to that effect. maybe he really felt that way, and just can’t fix it like he thought he would or could. I mean, I never agreed with him on how he wanted to do it, but maybe he had the right intention. He said something to the effect of “it’s very complicated.” Hell yeah it is. He even said he Planned Parenthood does some great things for women, but now he seems to be caving to the right on that. It’s too bad.

@JLeslie I have several issues with socialized medicine. First, I have lived in that situation. Being in the Navy, you are given free healthcare, dental, etc. Sometimes that is okay, other times it is not. What could make it not good? The quality of the doctor, the caring of the staff, the wait you go through for treatment, all play in. For example: I once had a sinus infection. I knew what it was because I had them before. I had a headache, clogged sinuses, blowing green snot…the usual. I went to the corpsman on our sub who looked me over and agreed with my diagnosis. Unfortunately, being only a corpsman, he was not allowed to prescribe antibiotics while we were in port. Silly, huh? He can give them out if we are at sea but not while we are in port. So he sends me to the base infirmary. I got there and was put in the queue and waited. It was a couple hours of sitting there until I got to see a doctor. When I did, he asked why I was there. I told him and told him that my corpsman agreed with the diagnosis. His response? “I’m the doctor, I’ll decide what’s wrong with you”. So he sends me for x-rays. X-rays for a sinus infection. I went down to get these and the technician took 5 shots of my head. He screwed 3 of these up and had to re-take them. He screwed one of these up and had to re-take it. I was sent back to the waiting room for a other couple hours. Then I got in to see the doctor. He looks at the x-rays and says “Here’s the problem – You have congested sinuses here and here!” Amazing. Hours of waiting, 9 x-rays and this guy finds the problem is exactly what I told him when I walked in. So did I get the antibiotics to battle the infection? No. He prescribed pain killers. So was I allowed to seek a second opinion? Not on that base. He was the doctor and there was no questioning him.
Another issue I have is the overall cost. Again…only so many people are working. You gave lots of examples of how you had to have health insurance and others opted to not get it. When they needed treatment, the hospital gave it to them and passed the cost on to others who DID have insurance. Yep….that’s annoying. But I had health insurance that covered me and my family. It wasn’t always cheap and there were rules for using it, but it was there. And it was paid for with my salary, including elevated costs imposed by the hospital to cover those people that had no coverage. Now….put that into the hands of the government. Now my taxes need to go up because effectively my “health insurance” is going to cover everyone. No way around it. So instead of me paying to cover a few people, I’m not helping to pay for everyone. And I don’t know about you, but I’m already paying at least 20% to the feds for taxes. Imagine another 10% or 20% of your gross income going just to pay for everyone to have medical coverage? That’s a huge hit. Right now, I have premiums and deductibles and the deductibles are the big hit. But here’s the kicker…if I’m not sick or don’t need emergency services, I’m not paying them. It isn’t an expense but a potential expense. When you make it a tax, you are now going to pay it regardless of what you want or need.
And lastly, but probably the most importantly, is that with socialized medicine we are putting our healthcare into the hands of bureaucrats. They will have to create layers and layers of bureaucracy which adds to the overall cost. They will have to create all sorts of new rules. They will do all sorts of things which I have no say in, other than voting people out of office. But the people making up the rules are likely not going to be the elected officials. They will be people that are appointed. And when was the last time the government really did something efficiently and cost effectively? Look at our Congress right now. They are polarized to the nth degree. They are basically at a stand still on everything they try to do. They cannot put aside personal differences to even have a discussion without turning it into some political ploy. And that is what you want to give control of our healthcare? Please…think about that.
I think that what really needs to happen is a solid study. I hate saying assign a group to look into a matter, but that’s exactly what we need. And not just a group of politicians. In fact, no politicians at all. Get some private citizens and some doctors together for a start. Look at the basics. What do we want? Necessary medical treatment that people can afford. What does necessary medical treatment mean? What is affordable? Where are the current expenses? Why do we have these expenses? Questions like these need to be answered. Then we need to go through and address those things that drive up our costs. Until we fully understand a problem, getting a solution is impossible. And taking politics out of the equation up front will make it easier to get to a solution. That should be the basis of untangling our healthcare issues.

What really grinds my gears ( reminds me of Peter in Family Guy ) is that America has more than its share of undeniably smart and well-meaning people yet nobody today is working on inevitably more serious problems the nation would have to deal with 25 years from now.

Not one citizen nor political leader is calling for a one year summit on ( just one example ) healthcare that can be broadcasted in C-Span and Instagram so millennials might even see it.

Citizens should dispose of inadequate leaders as quickly as possible and replace them with ones who know what right visions the nation needs to seek and know how to lead and guide ALL his or her fellow Americans in understanding those visions with clarity and what steps to take to achieve them. And then make actual steps forward.

@seawulf575 I grew up in military healthcare, and my parents still use it. Believe me, I have examples of doctors screwing up within the military system too, I don’t idealize it like you might think. I also have examples of doctors screwing up out in the private world of healthcare. I have spent thousands wasting so much time in the private system, and have been harmed by it also. Moreover, doctors who are paid based on what they do for patients doesn’t motivate them to do what’s best for the patient always. The best private hospitals in America have the same philosophy, places like Mayo and Johns Hopkins.

If I need to choose, I choose military care. I’d be very interested to know the numbers. A private hospital vs a military hospital by department. I say by department because hospitals that take war casualties wouldn’t be a fair comparison to a suburban hospital, and a private hospital near southeast DC (lots of trauma and gun violence) wouldn’t be a fair comparison to a military clinic in places like Hawaii.

@mazingerz88 I agree that our leaders don’t earn their pay. I am all for term limits for congress. But trying to get the people that will be affected to pass the laws necessary is like hoping your dog will suddenly start crapping gold.