Do you think Tulsi Gabbard just killed any chance she had at becoming president by refusing to vote during the impeachment?

Wll, she had no chance before, and she still has no chance.

So I would say that she didn’t hurt her chances.

Yes

Who?

Unless she manages to be heard saying what her actual intent was, yes.

If you read her statement about it, she seems to have been trying to be intelligent an ethical, preferring her proposal to Censure Trump instead of impeach him, and providing reasons for that.

But since US voters have so little tendency to actually see or read such statements, or to appreciate nuance, it seems unlikely to me to do anything but backfire, unless and until she can be heard for her reasons.

So far from what I’ve seen, many of even her enthusiastic supporters have quit supporting her without seeming to really read/know or accept her intention.

I.e., as below:

Tulsi Gabbard Releases Statement on Impeachment of President Trump

WASHINGTON, D.C. — Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D, Hawaii) released the following statement today on her vote regarding the impeachment of President Trump:

“Throughout my life, whether through serving in the military or in Congress, I’ve always worked to do what is in the best interests of our country. Not what’s best for me politically or what’s best for my political party. I have always put our country first. One may not always agree with my decision, but everyone should know that I will always do what I believe to be right for the country that I love.

After doing my due diligence in reviewing the 658-page impeachment report, I came to the conclusion that I could not in good conscience vote either yes or no.

I am standing in the center and have decided to vote Present. I could not in good conscience vote against impeachment because I believe President Trump is guilty of wrongdoing.

I also could not in good conscience vote for impeachment because removal of a sitting President must not be the culmination of a partisan process, fueled by tribal animosities that have so gravely divided our country. When I cast my vote in support of the impeachment inquiry nearly three months ago, I said that in order to maintain the integrity of this solemn undertaking, it must not be a partisan endeavor. Tragically, that’s what it has been.

On the one side — The president’s defenders insist that he has done nothing wrong. They agree with the absurd proclamation that his conduct was “perfect.” They have abdicated their responsibility to exercise legitimate oversight, and instead blindly do the bidding of their party’s leader.

On the other side — The president’s opponents insist that if we do not impeach, our country will collapse into dictatorship. All but explicitly, they accuse him of treason. Such extreme rhetoric was never conducive to an impartial fact-finding process.

The Founders of our country made clear their concerns about impeachment being a purely partisan exercise. In the Federalist Papers, Alexander Hamilton warned against any impeachment that would merely “connect itself with the pre-existing factions,” and “enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other.” In such cases, he said, “there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.”

Donald Trump has violated public trust. Congress must be unequivocal in denouncing the president’s misconduct and stand up for the American people and our democracy. To this end, I have introduced a censure resolution that will send a strong message to this president and future presidents that their abuses of power will not go unchecked, while leaving the question of removing Trump from office to the voters to decide.

I am confident that the American people will decide to deliver a resounding rebuke of President Trump’s innumerable improprieties and abuses. And they will express that judgment at the ballot box. That is the way real and lasting change has always occurred in this great country: through the forcefully expressed will of the people.

A house divided cannot stand. And today we are divided. Fragmentation and polarity are ripping our country apart. This breaks my heart, and breaks the hearts of all patriotic Americans, whether we are Democrats, Republicans, or Independents.

So today, I come before you to make a stand for the center, to appeal to all of you to bridge our differences and stand up for the American people.

My vote today is a vote for much needed reconciliation and hope that together we can heal our country. Let’s work side-by-side, seeking common ground, to usher in a bright future for the American people, our country, and our nation.”

She may have preferred censure, but as that wasn’t an option, she should have voted. It wouldn’t have changed the outcome either way, but would have kept her from seeming wishy-washy.

@Zaku, “But since US voters have so little tendency to actually see or read such statements, or to appreciate nuance, it seems unlikely to me to do anything but backfire, unless and until she can be heard for her reasons.” I didn’t know it was out there to be read. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
Her reasoning mitigates my reaction some.

@rebbel, Tulsi Gabbard, a democrat who is running for president, abstained from voting either “yea” or “nay.” She just notes that she was present.

Tulsi Gabbard is still perpetuating the lie that a transcript most Americans have never seen (but have taken the word of an irresponsible source) the President bribed or extorted a foreign government for information on a political rival.

No loss, though. The Democrats would have never allowed her to be the nominee, even if she were the only one with a chance of beating Trump. Hillary already tried again saying a political opponent was a Russian agent. I’m sure the Democrats could pull that off again, too.

Avanotti may be out of the picture, but Biden, Michelle Obama, Hillary, and Elizabeth Warren are still valid contenders,

I’ve read it. It’s not like it’s impossible to find. Here

”The other thing, There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.”

”I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you’re surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.”

Is there any mention of aid? quid pro quo? bribery?

Yes, before that quoted part.

How do you know about it, if it isn’t quoted?

God forbid that somebody might vote according to their conscience.

Can’t read her mind, but what if it were true. Could you really render a negative moral judgement in that case?

The whole thing is a transcript. It’s a literal quote of what was said, @Yellowdog. Go read it for yourself

Well, the part about the aid being withheld until dirt is given up on Joe Biden is not in there. That’s what @Zaku is referring to.

It’s between the lines. I am not surprised you aren’t catching it.

Gabbard’s statement is, frankly, nothing more than wishy-washy, do-nothing, fence sitting.

@Yellowdog

You know full and well what Trump is getting at in that phone call. It’s the same kind of barely coded language employed by the mafia.

@Yellowdog How do I know about it? Because I’ve read the transcript of the conversation, which was released by the White House right after it happened, and I have a good memory. It was also linked above.

See:

“The President: Well it is very nice of you to say that. I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are. Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk and I think it’s something that you should really ask them about. When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn’t do anything. A lot of the European countries are the same way so I think it’s something you want to look at but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn’t say that it’s reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine.”

This reads very much like what a mobster would say to a dependent when the mobster is about to ask for a favor. He’s spelling out what is at stake. US support, and possibly US help to get more support from Europe.

Also, know that the political context here is dire for Ukraine, and Trump has had conflict of interest issues around it since he started out, pariticularly with the appointment of former oil industry leader Rex Tillerson to Secretary of State, when lifting sanctions against Russia would’ve made the oil industry and Tillerson’s associates ridiculous amounts of money, and the sanctions are about Russia’s military action, past and potentially future into Ukraine. Ukraine wants US support to reduce fear Russia is going to invade Ukraine and/or engineer coups, etc.

q.v.: President Zelenskyy: ”... especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russian Federation. I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost. ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.”

i.e. Zelensky is signaling his extreme gratitude and interest in retaining the favor of Trump.

And Trump’s immediate reply after that is to tell Zelensky what he can do to get that favor. He asks for two favors, one to get information to help Trump versus the Mueller investigation, and the other asking for dirt on Biden getting a favor done for his son.

And that is blatant quid pro quo, with the president asking for personal help in his own legal case and his own political struggle, using the diplomatic power of the entire United States of America as a bargaining chip, which is an extreme conflict of interest, and rightly very illegal. He’s essentially saying: “Oh you like that aid and support from the USA against the superpower that wants to invade you, and to buy US missiles? And you’d like more support from the European Union, which the USA might be able to arrange? Ok, buddy, see if you can deliver some of that “exculpatory evidence” stuff for me, and dirt on my political opponent.”

Also, not as evidence against Trump, but also appalling, and setting the tone for what Trump said, when I look at how Zelensky opens the conversation:

“President Zelenskyy: Well yes, to tell you the truth, we are trying to work hard because we wanted to drain the swamp here in our country. We brought in many many new people. Not the old politicians, not the typical politicians, because we want to have a new format and a new type of government. You are a great teacher for us and in that.”

- From my perspective, this is horrifying all by itself. To me, Trump did the opposite of “drain the swamp”, as every appointment I have seen Trump make has been as swampy as sin! DeVos essentially admits bribing her way into the post, and has been non-stop atrocious. The heads of various departments have mostly been corporate revolving-door agents and/or have worked to undermine the function of their departments in favor of corporate profiteering. Etc. And I expect Zelensky is not a fool and this looks like a signal to Trump that he approves of his sleazy ways.

“Nice place you got here. Be a shame if something were to happen to it.”

It was a cheeky moment that reminded me, of all things, of Obama, who did that a lot when he was in Chicago.

@Zaku I appreciate your detailed response; one of the most thorough I’ve ever read on Fluther, and I’m sorry that you went to such lengths.

But there is a lot of innuendo in your response, trying to highlight and make something out of sentences and phrases that simply isn’t there. Trump was strategic and quick to release the transcript, exposing, Schifft, Pelosi, and the ‘whistleblower’ as the liars and conspiritors that they are.

Its funny how Zelensky did not get out of the phone call what you and the democrats are espousing. To get the narrative you are outlining, one would have to be totally unfamiliar with what has been going on the past ten or so years with the Obama administration’s extortion of the Ukraine and Trump’s efforts at fixing it. Obama actually DID deny military aid and stood by as Russia took Crimea. We have on tape Joe Biden and his hyper-corrupt dealings with Ukraine bragging about how he got the prosecutor fired who was investigating his son. Ukraine even assisted the Democrats in conspiring against Trump in 2016, as the January 11, 2017 Politico article outlines. And, I suspect, Bill Barr and John Durham already have a lot of evidence for in their criminal investigation of the Russia Collusion hoax, the biggest conspiracy and first coup attempt in U.S. history.

You can believe what you want, but the conversation in the transcript needs to be comprehended by what it actually says, and the way it was understood by the two who actually engaged in it. Trump granted aid that was long denied by the Obama administration even though Ukraine did a lot of their dirty work at their beck and call. Trump got others to support Ukraine. No investigation into Biden was announced, although the Ukrainian courts have detailed records of Joe and Hunter Biden, which is where your displaced outrage really ought to be.

Thanks @Zaku. Very concise. I was pretty sure @Yellowdog still wouldn’t get it, though, and I was right, obviously.

@Yellowdog I guess that you didn’t listen to any of the testimony under oath of State Department and other officials during the hearings about the plans that Giuliani and other negotiated.

It’s a shame that you will take in no new information once you have made up your mind.

”But there is a lot of innuendo in your response, trying to highlight and make something out of sentences and phrases that simply isn’t there.”

Hmmm,where have I seen that before…

@janbb If you mean Sondland, he was the only fact witness who actually spoke with the president, and he testified that Trump wanted nothing from Ukraine. No Quid Pro Quo,

As far as Giuliani goes, he has actual documents for Durham and Bill Barr, and is very good at what he does. We will have to wait to see where the criminal probes into the origins of the Russia hoax goes.

You seem to forget, Trump is not the aggressor here. These continual efforts to bring down the President is a coup d’etat, The first in the history of this country.

Demonizing, de-humanizing, and speaking of your opposition as turds, imbeciles, and other demeaning and offensive, obscene terms, shows where your party already is, if you look at history.

@Yellowdog The transcript is not innuendo. It’s a clear transaction proposal to get personal favors in exchange for actions by the USA.

If Biden and his son or whoever else also is guilty of comparably corrupt dealings with Ukraine, that doesn’t do anything to exonerate Trump from doing the same thing. Throw them all in jail if that’s the case, and I’d be overjoyed.

The transcript is an actual, literal transcript—not dog whistles and coded words.

Mhmm,,,

UNCLASSIFIED
Declassified by order of the President
September 24, 2019
MEMORANDUM OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATION
SUBJECT: Telephone Conversation with President Zelenskyy of Ukraine
Participants: President Zelenskyy of Ukraine
Notetakers: The White House Situation Room
Date, Time July 25, 2019, 9:03–9:33 am EDT
and Place: Residence
The President: Congratulations on a great victory. We all watched from the United States and you did a terrific job. The way you came from behind, somebody who wasn’t given much of a chance, and you ended up winning easily. It’s a fantastic achievement. Congratulations.

President Zelenskyy: You are absolutely right Mr. President. We did win big and we worked hard for this. We worked a lot but I would like to confess to you that I had an opportunity to learn from you. We used quite a few of your skills and knowledge and were able to use it as an example for our elections and yes it is true that these were unique elections. We were in a unique situation that we were able to achieve a unique success. I’m able to tell you the following; the first time you called me to congratulate me when I won my presidential election, and the second time you are now calling me when my party won the parliamentary election. I think I should run more often so you can call me more often and we can talk over the phone more often.
The President: (laughter) That’s a very good idea. I think your country is very happy about that.
President Zelenskyy: Well yes, to tell you the truth, we are trying to work hard because we wanted to drain the swamp here in our country. We brought in many many new people. Not the old politicians, not the typical politicians, because we want to have a new format and a new type of government. You are a great teacher for us and in that.
The President: Well it is very nice of you to say that. I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are. Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk and I think it’s something that you should really ask them about. When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn’t do anything. A lot of the European countries are the same way so I think it’s something you want to look at but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn’t say that it’s reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine.
President Zelenskyy: Yes you are absolutely right. Not only 100%, but actually 1000% and I can tell you the following; I did talk to Angela Merkel and I did meet with her I also met and talked with Macron and I told them that they are not doing quite as much as they need to be doing on the issues with the sanctions. They are not enforcing the sanctions. They are not working as much as they should work for Ukraine. It turns out that even though logically, the European Union should be our biggest partner but technically the United States is a much bigger partner than the European Union and I’m very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a lot for Ukraine. Much more than the European Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russian Federation. I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost. ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.
The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you’re surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.
President Zelenskyy: Yes it is very important for me and everything that you just mentioned earlier. For me as a President, it is very important and we are open for any future cooperation. We are ready to open a new page on cooperation in relations between the United States and Ukraine. For that purpose, I just recalled our ambassador from United States and he will be replaced by a very competent and very experienced ambassador who will work hard on making sure that our two nations are getting closer. I would also like and hope to see him having your trust and your confidence and have personal relations with you so we can cooperate even more so. I will personally tell you that one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine. I just wanted to assure you once again that you have nobody but friends around us. I will make sure that I surround myself with the best and most experienced people. I also wanted to tell you that we are friends. We are great friends and you Mr. President have friends in our country so we can continue our strategic partnership. I also plan to surround myself with great people and in addition to that investigation, I guarantee as the President of Ukraine that all the investigations will be done openly and candidly.. That I can assure you.
The President: Good because I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that’s really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what’s happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.
President Zelenskyy: I wanted to tell you about the prosecutor. First of all, I understand and I’m knowledgeable about the situation. Since we have won the absolute majority in our Parliament, the next prosecutor general will be 100% my person, my candidate, who will be approved, by the parliament and will start as a new prosecutor in September. *He or she will look into the situation, specifically to the company that you mentioned in this issue. The issue of the investigation of the case is actually the issue of making sure to restore the honesty so we will take care of that and will work on the investigation of the case. On top of that, I would kindly ask you if you have any additional information that you can provide to us, it would be very helpful for the investigation to make sure that we administer justice in our country with regard to the Ambassador to the United States from Ukraine as far as I recall her name was Ivanovich. It was great that you were the first one who told me that she was a bad ambassador because I agree with you 100%. Her attitude towards me was far from the best as she admired the previous President and she was on his side. She would not accept me as a new President well enough.
The President: Well, she’s going to go through some things. I will have Mr. Giuliani give you a call and I am also going to have Attorney General Barr call and we will get to the bottom of it. I’m sure you will figure it out. I heard the prosecutor was treated very badly and he was a very fair prosecutor so good luck with everything. Your economy is going to get better and better I predict. You have a lot of assets. It’s a great country. I have many Ukrainian friends, their incredible people.
President Zelenskyy: I would like to tell you that I also have quite a few Ukrainian friends that live in the United States. Actually last time I traveled to the United States, I stayed in New York near Central Park and I stayed at the Trump Tower. I will talk to them and I hope to see them again in the future. I also wanted to thank you for your invitation to visit the United States, specifically Washington DC. On the other hand, I also want to ensure you that we will be very serious about the case and will work on the investigation. As to the economy, there is much potential for our two countries and one of the issues that is very important for Ukraine is energy independence. I believe we can be very successful and cooperating on energy independence with United States. We are already working on cooperation. We are buying American oil but I am very hopeful for a future meeting. We will have more time and more opportunities to discuss these opportunities and get to know each other better. I would like to thank you very much for your support.
The President: Good. Well, thank you very much and I appreciate that. I will tell Rudy and Attorney General Barr to call. Thank you. Whenever you would like to come to the White House, feel free to call. Give us a date and we’ll work that out. I look forward to seeing you.
President Zelenskyy: Thank you very much. I would be very happy to come and would be happy to meet with you personally and get to know you better. I am looking forward to our meeting and I also would like to invite you to visit Ukraine and come to the city of Kyiv which is a beautiful city. We have a beautiful country which would welcome you. On the other hand, I believe that on September 1 we will be in Poland and we can meet in Poland hopefully. After that, it might be a very good idea for you to travel to Ukraine. We can either take my plane and go to Ukraine or we can take your plane, which is probably much better than mine.
The President: Okay, we can work that out. I look forward to seeing you in Washington and maybe in Poland because I think we are going to be there at that time.
President Zelenskyy: Thank you very much Mr. President.
The President: Congratulations on a fantastic job you’ve done. The whole world was watching. I’m not sure it was so much of an upset but congratulations.

President Zelenskyy: Thank you Mr. President bye-bye.
– - End of conversation – -

Thank you @Zaku. I appreciate the work you put into it, and it really highlights the most important points of that reckless conversation.
It’s not going to get through to the conservatives here, though.

^^Like I said @Yellowdog is better off stepping back into reality away from the fantasy world Fox News had created. But it will never happen.

@Zaku Did you just randomly select parts to mark in bold?

No, it wasn’t random. It was so that those people who don’t have the attention span to read the whole thing can get the gist of it by reading the bolded parts.

And ,,, so the Dems can take those passages out of context and put a spin on it.

Remember, there are a lot of coded words and phrases most of us dullards cannot see, For instance, if Trump mentions that we will fly the flags half-staff until August 8th due to a massacre or terror attack, 8/8 rhymes with HH, which means Heil Hitler. And if the President mentions that he will be visiting Poland, he really means that Putin will be the new king of the world in 2020.

It’s up there, on it’s own, verbatim. Word for word The entire conversation.
I guess you don’t understand how taking things out of context works. Making a passage bold is not taking it out of context. You can read everything that came before it and after it. Most of us here can, anyway.

You can’t fight willful ignorance.

^^ Wherever it appears.

@Zaku Seemed kinda odd that most of the comments you marked bold were made by Zelenskyy.

That’s because they were the main points that show quid pro quo @cheebdragon.