What do you think about this transgender female teacher wanting to use the girl’s bathroom?

When I was in school, faculty and staff did not use the boys and girls bathrooms.

Nor can I think of a good reason they would want to.

The adults have facilities to use.

Besides that, the teacher expects students not use Mr. or Miss. Teacher wants to be called Mx. That demonstrates teacher is neither fully male, nor fully female, so why expect to use a restroom designated for Miss?

I think this is a case of litigation for profit, without valid complaint.

Of course I would feel differently if the teacher was not offered use of a staff restroom.

If the school has separate restrooms for staff, the conflict is alleviated through allowing the adults in whichever adult restroom they prefer. The students should have the same options in their restrooms. It is merely a matter of partitioning urinals from view. Unisex bathrooms are the sensible goal to shoot for. People should be conditioned to grow accustomed to them from youth, if only to eliminate all the silliness generated when they grow into neurotic adults.

Sounds more like a statement is being made than anything else.
For one thing, the toilets themselves for the students in elementary schools are tiny, difficult to use for any adult. I am a small person and I have trouble with them.
For another, if the person in question has some disability, either with mobility or digestion, and needs a closer bathroom, that is addressed as an entirely different issue.

This is, IMO, a very poor platform to stand on for trans rights.

That said, the entire tone of the article smacks of disrespect, from pronoun use to attitude.

I guess, I don’t care… it’s a restroom. As long as someone is just doing a 1, or 2, it doesn’t matter to me. We all, have to do both.I know of many situations, where women use the men’s room, because they don’t want to wait in line with the females. I don’t necessarily support it. But. It’s harmless.
In many countries, people just go, on the street…
In America, there are closed stalls. Nobody can see, what’s going on.

I don’t really understand why a person would want to use another gender’s restroom. But. I’m not transgender. So. I can’t really see things, from their point of view…

I don’t see this as a gender issue at all, but rather an issue of an adult insisting on using the bathroom deemed for children. It is a red flag in my opinion.

I agree with @canidmajor that there might be reasons for exceptions, like mobility issues making it difficult to get to the faculty bathroom, but I don’t think that is mentioned in the article. I wouldn’t let her use the children’s bathroom, and I would do a double check on her criminal background.

In all my years of school I never once saw any teachers (male, female or whatever else) in the students’ restrooms.

It appears most of us agree. It’s an odd stand to make.

Extremely. Hey, I’m all for LGBT rights, but this isn’t the hill to make your stand on.

Why would the teachers want to go into the student bathrooms? They’re gross.

I find it weird that they still insist to use the girl’s bathroom when there are adult facilities around. You can’t claim it’s transphobic because reading from the text the teacher is allowed to use the women’s bathroom and definitely accepted and their rights even defended by the school. Okay maybe other female teachers use the girl’s bathroom as well, but I agree with Darth_Algar I don’t see why they are making such a dilemma out of this.

They’re taking the piss!

So what if the bathroom is down the long hallway???

Geesh, they are not kids who can’t hold it?

Looks like the school will spend more on renovations to move the adult bathrooms closer?

I don’t think that the school board can budget for that and it may look like those that complain of the distance may be let go?
Shouldn’t this had been thought out BEFORE hiring?

It’s weird. And I don’t think it’s transphobic.

@MrGrimm888 Every time I go to bars I see women using the men’s room because they don’t want to wait in the line for the women’s room. I find it a little awkward, but it’s not that big of a deal. I find a lot of the controversy around bathroom use to be overblown (the “people will pretend to be trans so they can molest women” claim was outright bullshit). But I also think this teacher is looking for a controversy where there doesn’t need to be one.

We only use the single room bathrooms @Demosthenes, where we can lock the door behind us. School bathrooms have stalls. It’s not quite the same thing.

{sigh}

4W is a troll site. This should be obvious from the very first sentence of the “article,” but alas it seems not. If anyone was wondering about the actual sequence of events, here it is:

1. All Madison Metropolitan School District (MMSD) bathrooms were for staff or student use. There was no formal or informal separation between staff bathrooms and student bathrooms.

2. Vica Steel comes out as trans.

3. Someone contacts the district about bathroom usage at Frank Allis Elementary School. This is not an official complaint, and supposedly the concern is about their child sharing a bathroom with an adult.

4. The Madison Metropolitan School District asks the principal of Frank Allis Elementary School to implement some sort of practice that would prevent staff and students from using the same bathrooms.

5. The principal of Frank Allis Elementary School sends out an email outlining “best practices,” which includes staff using different bathrooms than the students. So far, this practice is only in place at Frank Allis Elementary School. There is no district-wide policy, though staff at some other schools have already been doing the same thing voluntarily. (The head of the teachers’ union notes that school buildings in the district do not uniformly have enough bathrooms to make this a district-wide policy.)

In principle, there is no problem with having an official or unofficial separation of staff and student bathrooms. In practice, it is transphobic if the policy comes about due to a concern over a trans teacher sharing a bathroom with students. But while the order of events is suggestive, I’m not sure that we as outside observers actually have enough information to determine whether or not transphobia is behind the policy (or the complaint that led to the policy).

To be clear, however, this teacher is not asking for something new. She is asking to maintain access to something she has traditionally had (usage of a bathroom directly across from her classroom, rather than one further away). Also to be clear, you have all been sharing bathrooms with trans people your entire life. All of us have.

Either we force trans men to use women’s bathrooms and trans women to use men’s bathrooms (in which case we are sharing bathrooms with trans people) or we allow trans men to use men’s bathrooms and trans women to use women’s bathrooms (in which case we are still sharing bathrooms with trans people). The latter occurs more or less without incident. The former routinely results in the assault and murder of trans people. So if we’re worried about crime, allowing trans people to use their preferred bathroom is clearly the way to go.

@Dutchess_III Well, the examples I’m thinking of were not single-use! They had stalls and urinals and there were drunk girls in there when I went in. D:

@SavoirFaire Thanks for clarifying the story further.

@SavoirFaire Thank you for sharing the facts. I didn’t click on the link so I didn’t realize this was in my son’s school district until I read your response.

This is the first I’ve heard of this and I keep abreast of these issues, especially in my city. This should tell you it’s not a big deal here.

The article is ridiculous. Just look at the pretend sources they provide for the “multiple cases of trans-identified male adults who have sexually preyed on girls in public bathrooms”. The first two links lead to a silly case of a man dressed as a woman. The third is in Italian, but seems to be about some (allegedly trans) person slapping a woman as she leaves the bathroom for knocking too insistently. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

Then the insincere “It is unclear if Steel is unaware of these cases, or does not consider them “endangering or attacking”. And the mocking use of gender neutral pronouns is just pathetic.

@JLeslie May I ask how you stumbled upon the specific link you shared with us?

I can’t think of a public place, where all ages don’t share a restroom…
Why is a school, so different?

^^^ Even before exposing one’s self sexually was a concern, (which, although it almost never happens there is always the possibility of an accident or accusation), there is something about toileting and showering together that its just not done by adults and children who are not related to each other.

Everyone knows that everyone uses a toilet, but if your principal / schoolmaster or teacher is using the toilet, and you are eight years old, well, it brings down the dignity of the schoolmaster or teacher. Covertly, not many kids want to use the toilet in the presence of their teacher,

Its okay, I think, for boys and men to use urinals at the same time and place. But there is something about the loo. When I was a camp counselor, I did not want to sit on the toilet when there was a group of fifth grade boys horseplaying in there. Besides that, kids talk a lot about private bodily functions if there is an incident to discuss with friends.

@Yellowdog . I understand your concerns. But. I think they’re mostly unfounded.

I would think that most transgender people, just want to be recognized as the gender, they consider themselves.

Again, I have no personal understanding of what they are going through.

@Jonsblond A Facebook friend posted it. As I said above, I don’t feel it’s a trans issue, I think it’s an adult wanting to use the kids bathroom issue.

I’m just thinking though, when I was in 6th grade I was in “the wing” which was 2 classrooms and both teachers were male, and the wing had girl and boy bathrooms. I wonder if our teachers bothered to walk to the faculty bathrooms. I have no idea since they were men. I don’t remember them going to the bathroom. Maybe they went when we were in PE or music class.

Sorry for second post.

@MrGrimm888 @Demosthenes Why would a woman using a men’s bathroom bother men at all? I find that surprising. You certainly aren’t afraid of us. In restaurants with one bathroom men and women use the same one bathroom. I use the men’s room all the time if it’s a single if there is a line at the women’s. I don’t understand why there is any gender specific designation when there is only two single restrooms, so I just ignore it, I always have.

I can tell you that our schools are crowded here in Madison and they are very old buildings. Students and teachers do share restrooms in many schools. Maybe it wasn’t an issue nearly 100 years ago when the buildings were built to have students and faculty use the same restrooms.

@JLeslie . It was only a problem, when I was a LEO. Most men didn’t care I don’t care…

@MrGrimm888 I did not mention any ‘concerns’ or transgender issues.

I was addressing the fact that adults are not supposed to take a crap or sit on the loo in front of schoolchildren. Just like they shouldn’t have diarrhea and incontinent underwear in front of schoolchildren. I’m not ‘concerned’ about it. It just isn’t proper. Especially if the adult s kinda creepy looking and possibly the wrong sex (the transgender woman in the picture looks like his native sex, a man trying to look like a woman).

In a school setting, the needs and rights of the children come before the perceived needs and rights of transgender adults/

@Yellowdog You missed the FUCKING BUS “adults are not supposed to take a crap or sit on the loo in front of schoolchildren” was the school district policy maybe not YOURS but you missed the FUCKING BUS ! !

The comment about “transgender woman in the picture looks like his native sex, a man trying to look like a woman” shows your Transgender phobia but I repeat myself ! ! !

No, just the norms of society.

Transgenders, especially those who do not resemble the sex they purport to be, should respect the standards others live by and transition others to feel at ease with them, that they are normal. Not assert their ‘rights’.

Of course, the whole issue could be avoided by establishing that adult faculty and staff do not perform their bodily functions in the presence of children.

“Should respect the standards others live by?”

What?

Why do transgender people need to appease others? Why can’t people just respect transgender people for who they are?

@Yellowdog I see you are hiding behind “Transgenders are . . . ”

You still MISSED THE FUCKING BUS !

Not on the same wave link of answers or question !

@Jonsblond I don’t mean transgender children. They are a separate issue. I knew a trans when I was a kid. His (her) name was Terry Perry. He was a boy by birth but really thought of himself as a girl, and there were issues about Terry using the girl’s restroom. This was very rare in the late 1970s. And Terry had a rough enough time with being picked on.

I myself was picked on, as a hermaphrodite, there were rumors that I had female genitalia. I say this with great vulnerability on this site, because I knew what it is like to be assaulted in a locker room.

Adults should not think their transgender needs supercede the community standards where children are concerned. There is a better arena for adults to make a case for their rights as transgenders.

But my main point is, no adults in the children’s restrooms unless a monitor is needed. Its not a place for adults to do their business.

@Yellowdog You are asking a lot of the transgender community when they already deal with so much. It’s not their responsibility to make others feel comfortable. You get to leave the house and everyone knows you are a man. Please take a moment and put yourself in their shoes. Imagine leaving your house and every day someone misgenders you. Imagine how that would make you feel. I can tell you from experience having a trans son, it can ruin your day. It hits them hard.

Here in Madison the community standards in the school district is to support all transgender people including staff and students.

https://support.madison.k12.wi.us/guidance-policies-support-transgender-non-binary-and-gender-expansive-students

Yes, Madison WIS is a very tran-friendly community.

I am not sure if you had a chance to read all of my answer as I had to alter it. I wanted to tell you about a trans I knew in sixth-eighth grade.

My point is, if you are different from the norm, you should not force others to accept you by asserting your rights—but try to fit in until others come to know and accept you.

@Yellowdog Go to sleep ! ! ! !

Sounds like a good idea @Tropical_Willie

@Yellowdog It’s the other way around. Everyone should be accepted. There is no norm.

We don’t have to be mean to @Yellowdog , for having an opinion. And he really went out on limb, to tell us something personal about himself…

My point is that if you are in a McDonald’s, an airport, or any other public place, children and adults share the same restrooms. There aren’t many adults, in a school, except for teachers. If we trust them with our children, in every other part of the school, why not the restrooms?

As far as transgender kids, it’s not like that is something that only is relevant in the restroom.

A school, is a place for learning/teaching. If kids can’t use the restroom, that they see fits their gender identity, aren’t we teaching children not to respect gender identity?

I can’t imagine the challenges that a transgender person, already faces. I would think that they don’t want the additional challenge, of being forced to use the restroom, of whom they consider the opposite sex. Are we supposed to put their feelings aside, and further their challenges?

I don’t think that is fair. It just makes them more of an outcast. Which they aren’t. Or. Shouldn’t be.

What about bisexual children? Where should they have to go, to use the restroom?

It’s just a restroom. We can’t logistically, have restrooms, for every type of person.

When I went to middle school, it was a very old school. There were multiple restrooms, right next to each other, and water fountains. It seemed strange, to me. I asked a teacher, why this was so. Apparently, the school was built, when segregation was a thing. The colored people, had to use different restrooms, and water fountains, than the white people. Once desegregation, was adopted, there were lots of extra restrooms, and water fountains. Not just a waste of money, and space. But. A reminder of how embarrassing our history was…

I wager, that in the near future, it will be a similar situation. People will use two restrooms, and not care about transgender people, choosing their own. And it will seem stupid, that there was ever any separation.

There are billions of people, in the world. Each is a little different than the other. This is something that will have to be understood. And, it will.

Of all the things to be upset about, this seems like a waste of time.

Should transgender people, have to use separate water fountains, too? Where does this stupidity end?

THINK.

@Tropical_Willie I don’t think we should be so hard on @Yellowdog. I think he’s a person who is ill informed but has a good heart. Some kindness and compassion will probably help him to understand rather than using anger and insults. Just a thought.

@MrGrimm <3

@JLeslie “I think it’s an adult wanting to use the kids bathroom issue.”

But if you read the article I posted (instead of the troll article you posted), you’ll see that there was previously no distinction between adult and child bathrooms. So it’s more of a “I want to continue using this bathroom directly across from my classroom and don’t think there’s a good reason to abruptly stop me from doing so” issue.

@Yellowdog “Trans” is an adjective. Saying you know “a trans” is like saying you know “a black” or “a gay” (both of which are disrespectful). Furthermore, trans people are referred to as “trans people” (not “transgenders”), trans men (people who were assumed to be female at birth but identify as male) are referred to as “he,” and trans women (people who were assumed to be male at birth but identify as female) are referred to as “she.” I understand that it can be difficult to keep up with the terms that people prefer to be called, but now you know. So assuming you are having this conversation in good faith—and I truly believe you are—please extend to others the same basic courtesies regarding personal identity that fellow human beings should be able to expect from one another.

“I was addressing the fact that adults are not supposed to take a crap or sit on the loo in front of schoolchildren.”

That’s why bathroom stalls have doors. Problem solved. Of course, maybe your objection is to adults using the bathroom near children (rather than just in front of them). Do you have the same objections regarding bathrooms at the mall? Or public parks? Or stadiums? Concert halls? Movie theaters?

“My point is, if you are different from the norm, you should not force others to accept you by asserting your rights—but try to fit in until others come to know and accept you.”

It’s pretty hard to get to know someone when they’ve been shoved into a closet.

@Tropical_Willie I don’t understand why you would think anything you’ve written here is helpful. You’re not changing anyone’s mind, and you’re not making anyone on your side feel better.

I think @Yellowdog , does have a good heart. A rare thing, nowadays. And, he’s a veteran jelly. Let’s give him some leeway.

@SavoirFaire All I can say is thank you. You touched my heart tonight.

Maybe it matters how old the kids are. Would our answers be different depending on whether it’s elementary or high school kids?

I’m going to interject a little and hope I don’t get smacked too hard.

Men every day have to deal with societal concerns. My husband, who is straight, average build, and pleasant to look at, there is no vibe from him that you need to feel on guard, except that he is a man, worries about helping a child in a park if the child falls down, because he doesn’t want to be accused of trying to molest or take the kid. All people have things they deal with regarding conforming in society and CYA. Men worry about being accused of harassment or worse, women worry about being judged based on appearance, etc.

What if this was a straight male teacher, no trans issue, wanting to use the boys room, are we all ok with it? I don’t think it’s unreasonable that if society can tell this women is trans, meaning was assigned male at birth, and has obvious physical characteristics that are associated with men, that our concerns are the same as if a male wants to use the bathroom with children. Note: I am not stating the concern is that a trans person is using the bathroom, I am talking about adults and more specifically adult men. She’s a she, except we know she is biologically a he by her characteristics. She can’t escape that, why does she get to worry less than my husband about societal norms?

@MrGrimm888 Very young girls don’t go to the bathroom by themselves usually, except in school. They usually have an adult with them. If they are with their dads, the dad either waits right outside the door, and I’ve even seen dads come in to the women’s room. I don’t know if the same is true for boys. I know I see young boys in the public women’s bathrooms all the time with their moms. I would say there is a general concern about children being in bathrooms with adults. Not paranoia, but caution.

@SavoirFaire What if the Chucky Cheese has specific children’s bathrooms with lower toilets and sinks? If an adult employee insists on using the kids room is that of concern. Completely take the trans issue away, and just make it about adults.

No offense taken by me.

I’m just saying the way people are. People will not accept transgender appearances or behavior until they know you.

In general, people don’t accept homosexuality, for instance. But if they know someone who is gay, you are more likely to accept them as part of the community.

It is for this reason that transgender persons should not demand rights or flaunt their differences. They should be known as persons first, living by the same norms as everyone else. Once people know you, they will accept you even if they find your sexual preferences, identity, or lifestyle distasteful. That is not me, that is just the way people are.

@SavoirFaire I do not see the terms ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ to be an insult. It is, if anything, an adjective. It is still confusing to many what is meant by a ‘transgender man’ or ‘transgender woman’ since, biologically speaking, it is a male that identifies as a woman or vise versa.

My friend in school was a boy who believed himself to be a girl. If I said he was a ‘transgender female’ and refer to him as ‘she’—some might assume I meant a biological female who identifies as a male.

@JLeslie men worrying about being accused of harassment or women worrying about being judged based on their appearance is difficult but not on par to gender identity. I wish I could explain it better but I can’t. I wish others could see what my son has had to deal with on a daily basis and then they’d understand. Does your husband want to kill himself because society is hard on him? Does he worry every day the second he leaves the house? My son won’t step out our back door to get to the basement to do laundry if he doesn’t have his binder on, so he doesn’t help with laundry. He’s terrified of people walking along the street seeing him without his binder on. His binder has been giving him health issues lately because it constricts his lungs.

@JLeslie “What if the Chucky Cheese has specific children’s bathrooms with lower toilets and sinks?”

Then we’re dealing with a completely different issue. But as I said in my first response: “In principle, there is no problem with having an official or unofficial separation of staff and student bathrooms. In practice, it is transphobic if the policy comes about due to a concern over a trans teacher sharing a bathroom with students.”

@Yellowdog “I do not see the terms ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ to be an insult.”

The terms are not insults. Using them incorrectly, however, is insulting.

“It is, if anything, an adjective.”

That’s why the very first sentence of my reply to you was: “Trans” is an adjective. The problem is that you used it as a noun.

“It is still confusing to many what is meant by a ‘transgender man’ or ‘transgender woman’ since, biologically speaking, it is a male that identifies as a woman or vise versa.”

First, you’ve already stated that “trans” is an adjective. Therefore, “trans man” and “trans woman” should be no more confusing than “tall man” or “tall woman.” A trans man is a man who is trans. A trans woman is a woman who is trans. Pretty simple.

Second, do not refer to human beings as “it” unless they specifically ask you to. It is insulting. (And if you did it by mistake, you should probably be more careful. Pronouns are a sensitive issue for many trans people).

Third, there is no such thing as being binarily “biologically male” or “biologically female.” There is being XX, XY, XXY, XYY, XXYY, and so forth, but that is as much as can be said biologically.

“My friend in school was a boy who believed himself to be a girl.”

The way you tell the story actually implies that she was a girl who had been misidentified at birth as a male.

“If I said he was a ‘transgender female’ and refer to him as ‘she’—some might assume I meant a biological female who identifies as a male.”

Only if they were ignorant (the best antidote to which is information).

It’s hard not to be ignorant, in such times. I try to keep up. But. I fail miserably, in many cases. I’m trying to be respectful, but I fail…
Everyone, wants their appropriate label. But. It’s an ever evolving thing. I don’t want to offend anyone. But. It’s tough…

@MrGrimm888 I think that’s fine. There’s a big difference between saying the wrong thing by accident and saying it out of malice. And it’s easy to tell the difference. People who make mistakes correct themselves. People who act out of malice double down. As always, actions speak louder than words.

That’s good to know. I am not trying to be a bad person.

@Jonsblond I’m not making it into a competition. Absolutely some people have more to deal with in society regarding outward appearance than others. Sometimes it’s nothing to do with outward appearance, but some other issue regarding conforming. However, I will say that I think people who think other people (especially kids) have no issue are wrong. Knowing everyone has insecurities and problems isn’t a bad thing to know, it can help not feel so isolated. For some children their home life sucks, some children have learning problems, speech problems, health problems, hair problems, poverty problems, minority problems, we can go from serious outside of the norm situations to minor, but all of those children and people deal with crap that they shouldn’t, but it exists. I’m with you that society should be accepting.

My husband is not suicidal, but plenty of children are. I went through depression and some suicidal thoughts as a teen, it’s unfortunately not very uncommon. I personally know plenty of people who have had to deal with their child contemplating or attempting suicide. It’s terrifying. One friend, her family seems so normal and happy, her children always seemed well adjusted, and I was shocked when her daughter attempted suicide, but not so shocked, because we just never know all that is going on with our kids. My neighbor when I was a kid committed suicide, he was in his teens, about 5 years older than me. I don’t know why he was so sad. I knew his mom better than him, because she would talk to my mom. That’s just a few stories, I have more.

Again, I’m not comparing my situation to your son’s, but many many children are depressed, and it often has to do with not fitting in with their peers, feeling lonely and outcast. It’s hard enough when we fit in with the norms (which I basically did) so I can only imagine how hard it is when a person is outside of the norm. I even hate using that word norm, but anyway, I do have empathy for your son, and I do care very much about his happiness and how society treats him.

I just think we can’t be so worried about accommodating trans people that we give them more leeway than people who aren’t trans. In this case an adult wanting to use the children’s bathroom is the main topic in my opinion, and the school or community turning it into a trans issue is missing the point I think.

I do admit it’s hard for me to put myself in the place of someone transgender on the topic of bathrooms. In a multi stall bathroom I would not want to go into the men’s bathroom, but in terms of the law and how I feel if a trans person comes into whichever bathroom, I don’t have an issues with it, I definitely don’t think there should be laws about it, and I always feel vulnerable as a woman in a multi stall public bathroom, especially if I’m the only one in it when I go in.

An adult wanting isn’t the issue. This adult has always had access until she came out as trans. This is about equality, not leeway.

“Two teachers in other schools contacted by the Cap Times said they use the same bathrooms as students, and Steel said it has never come up as an issue for straight or cisgender staff.” From @Savoirs link.

This is my city. My son’s school district. We chose to move here for a reason. They support all trans people, students and staff.

IMO I think that in most schools there is a separate bathroom for the teachers and I much prefer that over sharing a bathroom with students for the simple reason that it is undignified, and the teacher could lose some of her or his authority farting about in the bathroom with the kids.
“Mr J had the runs soooo bad it stunk the whole bathroom and we ran out!!!”

@SavoirFaire First of all, I never referred to anyone, or any type of person as an “it.”

Secondly, to refer to someone as a ‘transgender’ is not depersonalizing. Since you are being deliberately obtuse as to whether you mean a male who has transitioned as a female, or a female who has transitioned to a male, it is best to describe someone who is biologically male but insists they are female and wants no part of their natural sex at birth, as merely a transgender or transgender individual.

As a general rule in English grammar, an adjective can be substituted for a noun if it describes that noun or an attribute thereof.

Thirdly, yes, there IS such a thing as a person’s biological sex. I find it odd that you would be in denial of this. And there are chromosomal irregularities in all biological species that have nothing to do with transgender issues but are entirely physical / chromosomal in nature.

I realize it is a hyper-sensitive issue for many people, but its hard to tell sometimes who really sees others this way or who is trolling. As a hermaphrodite, who suffered throughout high school when such intersex issues were an excuse for bullying and beating people half dead, I hate to see the LGBT community becoming another vitriol group, They need to be a part of our diverse society,

@Jonsblond What is a binder?

For female to make transgender many bind their breasts. I think that may be what she was referring to.

* Female to male *

@Yellowdog “I never referred to anyone, or any type of person as an ‘it.’”

You said the following: “It is still confusing to many what is meant by a ‘transgender man’ or ‘transgender woman’ since, biologically speaking, it is a male that identifies as a woman or vise versa.” Given the structure and content of the quoted sentence, the second instance of the word “it” (which I have placed in bold and italics) could only be referring to a person. I accept your clarification that you didn't mean to do so, but it is what you said.

“Since you are being deliberately obtuse as to whether you mean a male who has transitioned as a female, or a female who has transitioned to a male...”

I'm not sure how you can say I'm being obtuse when I explicitly stated that “a trans man is a man who is trans. A trans woman is a woman who is trans.” This is also how the terms are being used by the trans community.

“...it is best to describe someone who is biologically male but insists they are female and wants no part of their natural sex at birth, as merely a transgender or transgender individual.”

As a “transgender individual,” sure. As “a transgender,” no.

“As a general rule in English grammar, an adjective can be substituted for a noun if it describes that noun or an attribute thereof.”

Not when using an indefinite article (which you did). And even when using a definite article, the context of usage matters. That’s why we don’t say “the blacks” or “the gays” (or at least, decent people don’t). Regardless, the thing that really matters here is that trans people have asked not to be referred to in that way.

Like I said above, everyone makes mistakes. There’s a big difference between saying the wrong thing by accident and saying it out of malice. But people who make mistakes correct themselves, while people who act out of malice double down. Do you really want to be the kind of person who doubles down?

“yes, there IS such a thing as a person’s biological sex.”

Not in the simplistic, binary way in which you were using the concept. Maybe I didn’t make this clear enough in my previous answer, so I’ll be more thorough this time. Resting a claim that a transgender person is “a male that identifies as a woman or vice versa” on the notion of biological sex requires us to have some sort of definitive biological marker of the putative distinction. Typically, this comes down to the overly simplistic generality that biological females are XX and biological males are XY.

But this doesn’t work. Not everyone is XX or XY. So we can’t divide up “biological males” and “biological females” into two exhaustive and mutually exclusive categories on these grounds. Maybe this leads us to say “anyone with two X chromosomes is biologically female and anyone with a Y chromosome is biologically male.” But this leaves behind both a significant portion of the intersex population and completely ignores people with mosaic genes (that is, people who have both XX and XY cells in their bodies).

Furthermore, this attempt at a binary definition still has no way of accounting for people who are XXY, since they have both two X chromosomes and at least one Y chromosome. And even if we ignore the complicating facts about people with more than two allosomes (i.e., X or Y chromosomes), there are XY people who have ovaries and give birth. There are XX people who have penises, testes, and functional sperm. The world is much more complicated than was ever imagined by those who first conceived of sex as a binary. To the extent that the concept is useful at all, then, biological sex must be understood as a spectrum.

But you don’t have to take it from me. Here’s a Twitter thread (conveniently gathered together in a single, uninterrupted chain) that I’ve been cribbing from written by an expert in the field (he has a PhD in biochemistry and has published papers on both endocrinology and sexual differentiation). It even has sources at the end. (Note: “BLUF” means “bottom line up front.)

It’s probably worth noting that there is a binary definition of biological sex that predates gene theory which distinguishes biological males from biological females in terms of the size of the gametes they produce. This doesn’t work any better than the other attempted binary definitions, however, because there are people who produce no gametes and people who produce both ova and sperm.

It’s probably also worth noting that we’re just talking about human beings here. If we start looking at other members of the animal kingdom, things get much more complicated and the entire notion of biological sex starts slipping away (not just the binary notion of sex).

“I realize it is a hyper-sensitive issue for many people, but it’s hard to tell sometimes who really sees others this way or who is trolling.”

Indeed. That’s why I’ve been trying to assume that your participation here is sincere despite the various signals that you might be trolling.

“I hate to see the LGBT community becoming another vitriol group, They need to be a part of our diverse society.”

This same line has been trotted out to criticize those who fought against sexism, racism, and homophobia. It doesn’t sway me. Advocating for one’s basic human rights is not vitriol, and it is only by securing their rights that someone can truly become a part of society (rather than a second class citizen).

Please excuse my ignorance. But. How should I refer to such people?
Transgender, is not ok?
It certainly sounds offensive.

I’m just trying to figure out how to refer, to people who are not identifying themselves, as either.

What can I do, to not be offensive?

@SavoirFaire …woman’ since, biologically speaking, it is a male that identifies as a woman or vise versa… is not referring to a person as it. He also used “that” instead of “who” It’s just common usage. The sentence is just saying,”it is when a male identifies as a woman or vice versa.”

@Jonsblond I guess I’m more talking about my own opinion. I think I’d be uncomfortable with an adult male teacher using the children’s bathroom, and even though I accept her as a she, knowing she is biologically a man I’m more suspicious. It has nothing to do with being suspicious of transgender people, for me it’s about men and children, I just have my antenna up. I don’t have any connection of trans people being pedophiles or gay men for that matter, I find that all very offensive when people put that all in one basket. My thing is men.

Now, if I understand what you wrote, I guess he was using the boys bathroom, and then he became trans female and then started using the girls room? Is that right? Or, always was using the girls room, and then they found out she was transgender and suddenly it became not ok. I must have misunderstood something written out above and I’m admittedly being lazy about hunting for it again.

^But. If a person identifies themselves, as a female, why is there any potential danger for other females?..

I don’t understand what “risk,” is involved….

Am I just naive?

@MrGrimm888 It’s impossible to explain in writing without it sounding bad, I realize that. It’s just as bad to assume a man might do something wrong. It’s not fair, because of course most men would never harm a child.

Probably, if I knew the teacher, I would be just fine with it. Like I said I’m against blanket laws about transgender people and bathrooms. When I say that I mean laws that cause any sort of prohibition, I think they should be able to use the bathroom of their choosing. There is a transgender woman who lives where I live, I see her out dancing all the time. She is quite obviously biologically a man. If I saw her in the women’s room I’m completely fine with it. I think any young girls in the bathroom wouldn’t even catch on that she was a he (s/he might still live as a he sometimes, I have no idea) and it’s not any big deal, because young kids tend to just take people as they are, and don’t notice the cues adults do for gender. If I were a parent in the school, I would just care that the person was a good teacher and that the kids liked the teacher.

Going back to the bathroom, I’m completely fine with the woman who lives where I live using the women’s bathroom, because I know she always dresses as a woman when I see her out, but I think what some people were trying to say about public bathrooms in general (which is not the same as in a school where everyone knows everyone and are together 40 hours a week) is that if bad men can dress as women and easily go into women’s bathrooms, then that could be dangerous for women. I am NOT talking about transgender women, I am talking about men who purposely don clothing specifically to go where women go and are vulnerable. Men who don’t feel they are women, I mean men just dressing up to do harm. I have no idea if there has ever been a rape in a bathroom by a man doing that, but it’s a possibility women can imagine happening.

I had a big argument about that with someone once, and after she tried to pummel me for trying to explain that not everyone is transphobic who is concerned about men going into women’s bathrooms, she said she did know a woman who was raped in a bathroom. What?! I’ll point out again I’ve always maintained there should be no law governing bathrooms and gender.

I’ve been going into bathrooms with very obvious trans women since my teens, and I was fully aware. I frequented many establishments regularly that were primarily marketed as LBGTQ bars and clubs. This is back in the early 80’s. I see men and trans women in bathrooms and it’s fine with me, but it does depend on the situation whether I feel on guard. Is our intuition always right? No. But, women are drilled to trust our gut feelings. Bathrooms, elevators, desolate streets, parking lots, hitchhiking, stopping to help someone, locking our car door, it’s not a trans issue in my mind, I have no problem with any part of the LGBTQ community, let people be free to be happy I say, and I want to protect their civil rights of course.

In many ways I wish the entire issue never became a nationwide wedge issue. I don’t know if it has made things better or worse for transgender people. Sometimes things need to blow up like this to get laws in place to protect groups, and then the national attention is worth it I guess.

I’m not seeing why this is an issue. If it’s an emergency, run in the student bathroom. If not, go to the adult bathroom. Why does this have to be a transgender question? Why is this not just a teacher/child bathroom issue?

@chyna I agree. To me that is the main point in my mind. I might have drifted from that as the discussion moved along.

@MrGrimm888 It’s fine to refer to someone as a transgender person (or just a trans person). But you wouldn’t say “that person is a transgender” or that person is a trans” (the same way you wouldn’t say “that person is a black”). But really, the main thing is just to pay attention when someone says “hey, I’d prefer if you called me _____.”

And there’s a particular irony about discussing this online (not with you specifically, but just in general). We have no problem referring to other jellies by usernames that they made up and using the gender pronouns they tell us to use, yet some people act like it is just impossible to believe a flesh and blood person standing in front of them when they say “my name is Tom and I’m a male.”

@JLeslie “The sentence is just saying, ‘it is when a male identifies as a woman or vice versa.’”

Yes, @Yellowdog already clarified what he was trying to say, and I accepted that clarification. I also explained why the words that he wrote do not say what he meant them to say. He’s the one who was being a grammar stickler, after all.

@chyna “Why is this not just a teacher/child bathroom issue?”

As I noted above, the school does not (or at least, did not previously) have a teacher/student (or adult/child) bathroom distinction. They created one after this teacher came out as trans and started using the women’s rooms. The fact that one event followed the other does not prove causality, of course. But given the ongoing national conversation about trans people and bathrooms, you can’t really blame the teacher for being suspicious.

I honestly just want to say that this is another sexuality thread that got so negative it’s a major turn off. Seeing how you treat @Yellowdog, to me, is a shame.

Being real honest, there’s about two people here I’d have a conversation with about sexuality and he’s one of them because he’s lived it and doesn’t get an attitude. I wish more people were more approachable about asking questions to.

I agree with @KNOWITALL. I actually have a couple of questions, but I’m afraid to ask them.

@Dutchess_III Trust me, I understand completely. You may want to try this site. It’s helped answer some of my questions that I didn’t want to ask here or to my LGBTQ friends.

https://thesafezoneproject.com/resources/

If anyone is sensitive to transgender issues, it would be me. I do not wish to project the attacks by @SavoirFaire and others as necessarily being the attitude of the LGBT-Q community.

I am a true hermaphridite, with one of those strange chromosomal patterns you teach me about. I was born with small testicles in my labia folds, so I was made into a male. I learned most of this information from my grandmother, as it was never an easy topic with my parents. Also, I had hormonal treatments regularly from the time I was nine or ten until I was 16. I always was attracted to girls and considered myself male, but did some things that were traditionally for girls, and had a truly transgender friend and a friend with a boy who I assume was transgender. I was the first boy ever to join Camp Fire Girls, because the Boy and Girls Scouts had stricter requirements, but Camp Fire became for both girls and boys in 1975. I was regularly assaulted in stairwells and physical education locker rooms I also brought the first LGBT-Q organizations to a local community college in 2004.

It is rare to meet LGBT-Q people in church. They either hide it entirely or flaunt it. In the couple of cases I have encountered it, it is best for non-LGBT-Q individuals to accept the LGBT person even if they don’t approve of the “condition” or practice. And any people who are a certain way that others are averse to should learn to gently work their ways into the lives of the communities they wish to belong to, Ironically, church was the ONLY place I was accepted in my early teens.

I am appalled at what has become of the LGBT-Q community or those who purport to speak for it. For me, LGBT-Q groups should focus on healing and learning to recognize one’s self as a truly unique individual, part of a supportive community, and hope to change societal attitudes. It should never be used as a victim mindset or an excuse for bashing others.

Wow. Very brave of you to share. Thank you.

@Yellowdog Many many years ago I saw a person in an interview who had some sort of extra chromosome, I’m not sure of her exact diagnosis, and the doctors recommended to her parents to choose a gender, I don’t remember which one, and it would involve surgery. Her dad, also a doctor, refused to do it, and she (I call her she because she appeared she to me in her looks and fashion) was very grateful her parents didn’t do the surgery. Anyway, the whole interview made a real impression on me. The statistics are much higher than people think for these types of genetic anomaly. I feel like so many people live in secret with these things.

I hope I didn’t say anything offensive to you. Never would be my intent.

I wonder how they’d handle it today. Would they wait for gender assignment until the person is old enough to say who they identify with?

I have the chromosome pattern that IS a true hermaphrodite. Not sure the configuration. But I had / have testicles. I was surgically made into a male either after birth or shortly thereafter. I think the right decision was made since I presently look, feel, and am identified as a male. But I looked as if I could be either when I was in ,my late childhood and early teens, and frequently told Park Commission day camp counselors and Vacation Bible School teachers that I was a girl. I think the decison that I was male, made by family and doctors, was the right one. But I can see how this could go horribly wrong,

Yes, there ARE lots of natural hermaphrodites and transgenders by psychological reasons out there. Even though it is a very small percentage, in a city of a million people there are a couple of tens of thousands, so even with a small percentage its far from rare.

Lets PLEASE keep the LGBT-Q community a place of healing and support, and not a militant group,

@Yellowdog I wasn’t trying to imply the surgery that is sometimes done is wrong or right, I don’t have an opinion on it, I hope it came across that way. I’m glad the choice your parents made worked out well for you. Thank you for contributing your opinion and your experience to this Q.

@Yellowdog “If anyone is sensitive to transgender issues, it would be me. I do not wish to project the attacks by @SavoirFaire and others as necessarily being the attitude of the LGBT-Q community.”

I don’t think it is accurate to refer to anything I have written here as an attack. Information is not an attack. Correction is not an attack. Disagreement is not an attack. The only person who has explicitly attacked you is @Tropical_Willie, who was rebuked by most of the jellies participating in this discussion (including me). We’ve had this conversation before (with me admitting my writing style is blunt and you admitting that you can be oversensitive to bluntness). So please point to anything you still think is an attack.

Second, I’m glad that you are interested in being sensitive to transgender issues. But surely a very basic part of being sensitive to a group of people is calling them by the names they wish to be called, right?

“I am a true hermaphrodite, with one of those strange chromosomal patterns you teach me about.”

I’m not trying to teach you anything about hermaphroditism or chromosomal patterns. I am demonstrating how facts about genetics undermine any attempt to define biological sex in strict binary terms.

It’s probably worth mentioning explicitly, however, that hermaphroditism is not that same thing as being transgender, and the experience of one is not necessarily informative about the other.

“I am appalled at what has become of the LGBT-Q community or those who purport to speak for it.”

First, the LGBTQ community is not a monolith. There’s no one thing that it is, was, or has become. Second, no individual can speak for an entire community. Third, judging a group by the acts of an individual member is to commit the guilt by association fallacy.

(And to be clear, I am not even attempting to speak for anyone. I am simply passing along information that I have learned from members of the trans community.)

“For me, LGBT-Q groups should focus on healing and learning to recognize one’s self as a truly unique individual, part of a supportive community, and hope to change societal attitudes.”

That is what LGBTQ groups spend their time doing. That you may not like how they sometimes support each other and/or try to change society doesn’t negate that.

“It should never be used as a victim mindset or an excuse for bashing others.”

Being aware that LGBTQ people face a particular set of challenges, dangers, and obstacles is not a victim mindset. Criticizing people when they contribute to that set of challenges, dangers, and obstacles is not bashing others. No doubt there are individuals in the LGBTQ community who exhibit bad behavior. The same is true of every community. But the bad behavior of individuals is not a reason to despair for the group.

@SavoirFaire It’s unfortunate that so many people on Fluther can’t seem to grasp that concept when it comes to political affiliation.

@cheebdragon Yup. Religious affiliation, too.