Forget about looking it up. What does the term "open borders" mean to you?

Open borders to me would be the border between say Nebraska & Kansas.

So inter country borders?
Don’t you already have that in the states?

Yes if course we do. If we didn’t we Kansas 70s kids would have been forever without beer on Sundays cuz we had to go to Oklahoma to get it.

Free trade.

That you’re a slut.

Open borders means anyone can cross any time. Like moving between states in the United States, but instead it’s moving between countries. It doesn’t mean to me that a person has all the same rights as a citizen of the other country. You might be able to cross, but that doesn’t mean you can work.

People from South and Central America can come into the United States for health services, financial aid, and vote Democrat.

^^WTF?

To the OP, open borders reminds me of the opposite when in Russia there was a time citizens needed papers to travel within their own country?

@mazingerz88 yeah….do Repubs really believe that??

That is fear mongering @Yellowdog and you know it, with out proof of citizenship they wouldn’t be able to do that even if they moved freely between borders.
The same type of fear mongering is saying even if you dislike Trump you still have to vote for him or loose your country.
The same fear mongering that if anyone but ole orange hair gets in it will be civil war, so screw democracy doesn’t matter what the voters want, if Trump doesn’t win it will be the end,FEAR MONGERING!

@Dutchess_lll doesn’t matter they want their loyal sheep to believe it, and wait look some do.

Pandemonium.

Open borders means no paperwork like passports, visa’s, etc… Although I was met with AK carrying police in Mexico, at least 30, and a passport wasn’t required then. I don’t think of open borders as secure at all. Unrestricted.

@KNOWITALL I cans see that maybe no passport, but still require ID and such to check for a criminal record, but to say they come up and get health care, gee that same health care that unless a US citizen has over priced health care insurance can’t access, that same health care?
And vote in us elections again FAKE, even up here we have to be registered and have ID with us so we can vote, and that is in Canada.

I can’t see any country have really open borders that people can move back and forth with no ID or criminal checks, and to say that is what the dems want is FAKE NEWS.

@SQUEEKY2 I don’t speak for @Yellowdog but I think he meant future votes.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/22/are-unauthorized-immigrants-overwhelmingly-democrats/

Well if those immigrants go through the procedure and become US citizens then of course they can vote.

People can pass freely.

I was speaking of common stereotypes about open borders.

But the concept of open borders is self explanatory. No passport required. No citizenship applies.

I might see it in the EU, but beside that what country on earth has true open borders?

This is how I think
Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250316960/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_qvExEb605WXBN

Anybody who wants to immigrate to the United States should be able to with minimum fuss.

@SQUEEKY2 I disagree with your view of open borders. You say no passport but still require an ID and a background check. But our Democratic officials have specifically stated they want to decriminalize entry into this country. So even if they don’t have an ID and don’t submit to a background check, there is no law being broken. So open borders means OPEN. No rules for entry that can be enforced.

I just googled it and according to this article, there’s no candidate that is saying there should be no rules for entry. They are saying it should be a civil and not a criminal offense. That doesn’t mean no passport is required, @Yellowdog.

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/12/759442642/immigration-where-2020-democratic-candidates-stand-on-border-crossings-and-more

@seawulf575 Let me explain please. There is a Federal law (1325) that’s been on the books since 1929 making illegal entry a criminal charge. This is what the Democrats want to decriminalize and Trump wanted enforced.

Law:
Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, (2) entry into marriage for the purpose of evading immigration laws, and (3) establishing a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading immigration laws. The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA) amended 8 U.S.C. § 1325 to provide that an alien apprehended while entering or attempting to enter the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1911-8-usc-1325-unlawful-entry-failure-depart-fleeing-immigration

WHAT IS THE LAW?
The law is called illegal entry, and it makes unauthorized border crossings a crime. The law specifically bars entry into the U.S. at places other than through ports of entry, like an airport or bridge on the U.S.-Mexican border. A violation of the law, also known as Section 1325, is a misdemeanor with a penalty of six months in prison, though most are sentenced to time served. A second offense, or illegal re-entry, is a felony.
Critics say the U.S. government doesn’t have the resources to prosecute every case and the focus should be on more dangerous criminals.
Advocates say prosecuting the cases deters illegal immigration, though data on the topic is limited.
...................................
HOW HAS IT BEEN USED?
For decades the government didn’t actively pursue criminal cases under Section 1325, which has been on the books since 1929. Those caught were deported by immigration enforcement.
It wasn’t until a 2005 program started by President George W. Bush, vowing to curb illegal immigration, that the number of criminal prosecutions soared.
With “Operation Streamline,” large groups of people were tried all at once and slapped with misdemeanors. There were just under 40,000 criminal prosecutions for immigration that year, and up to 90,000 under former President Barack Obama in 2013, according to a research organization at Syracuse University.
https://apnews.com/2584b7cbfc4948cd9b828df0c1161a57
............................................................

The reason that they’re separating these little children from their families is that they’re using Section 1325 of that act, which criminalizes coming across the border, to incarcerate the parents and then separate them.
...............................................................
CHEN: Well, the important thing to recognize is that there do need to be consequences for violating the immigration laws, and it just depends on how it’s going to be done. Almost all of the immigration statute is civil by nature, so that if you entered illegally, you could be put into immigration court removal proceedings. And then if those proceedings went through, you could be deported out of the country, and that would be the specific consequence, which is already obviously very severe.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/736716115/why-the-trump-administration-treats-illegal-border-crossing-as-a-criminal-offens

@seawulf575 Furthermore, the civil penalty seems weak as a deterrent.

§1325. Improper entry by alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of-

(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or

(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.

(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, or both.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title8-section1325&num=0&edition=prelim

@seawulf575 saying the dems want a full open border is fear mongering, and you know it except the EU NO country has real open borders, I can understand decriminalizing entry but if a person is found to have a criminal record he/she is turned back NOT arrested and held.
AS a nation especially the usa right now you have to have border checks, hell they do that in Canada as well.
But to say the Dems want a full open border between countries is FAKE NEWS, and fear mongering.
IF Trump is so great can’t the republicans win honestly? without fear mongering and lies?

Any discussion of borders that frames it a problem of bodies moving across borders is immoral. It’s obscene to even talk about this in this way in the context of US imperialism and global capitalism. US foreign policy doesn’t respect borders, so I see no moral reason anyone should respect US borders.

If my family lived in my house for a 100 years, and spent that time bombing and burning down my neighbors’ houses, and hired people to enter my neighbors’ houses and torture and kill them, any talk about people respecting the lock on my front door would be obscene.

@SQUEEKY2 Well, if as many Dems claim, decriminalization would end child seperation, why are Biden and Beto saying it will not? If it’s “all about the kids”, why would two presidential candidates not know that?

Elizabeth Warren released a comprehensive immigration platform earlier this month, outlining her own plan to decriminalize immigration violations.

Supporters of decriminalization argue that criminalization is unnecessary, given that immigration violations already carry civil penalties, and that prosecutions under § 1325 waste government resources, allow for abusive use of prosecutorial power and do little to deter undocumented crossings.

Meanwhile, candidates who have refused to support decriminalization of immigration violations, such as Joe Biden and Beto O’Rourke, have argued that decriminalization of § 1325 would not unilaterally end family separation.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/most-prosecuted-federal-offense-america-primer-criminalization-border-crossing

@Dutchess_lll claiming that calling the Dems on their efforts towards Open Borders is fear mongering is nothing but name calling to avoid the issues. Many of the Dems want to decriminalize illegal entry into this country. They want to tear down borders between us and Mexico. They want to do away with ICE and move CBP to some other efforts. So if you are taking away penalties, removing barriers, and eliminating the people in charge of enforcing the laws, what are you actually saying? You tell me. Dems are lying to everyone and fools try to support their lies with name calling. But facts are facts. If you eliminate barriers, remove penalties, and eliminate enforcement, you are saying you want open borders with no restrictions. There is no other conclusion. Because the weak-ass argument that they want to just make it a civil penalty is foolish from the start. It is a weak political ploy to avoid saying they don’t want borders. If you take all the barriers towards free entry out of the way including those attempting to stop the illegal entry, how do you propose we screen these people? How do you charge them the civil fine if you have no one to actually stop them?

All borders to every nation should be open. People should be free to live where they want.

@Caravanfan Then we should have no countries at all. No countries means no laws either. It is inherently unfair to citizens of a country to have to support, through taxes, the people that want to wander in and out. And if everyone can come and go as they like there will be no way to establish taxes anyways. So what you are proposing is chaos….the wild west….the strong survive.

Who said doing away with fines???
You name a country besides the EU that has open borders bet ya can’t.
You still have guarded borders and if someone has criminal past should be fined, but to prosecute and jail just costs the tax payer money and accomplishes nothing fine them and turn them around.
You’re fear mongering, nothing more except costing the system a ton of money.
Thought you conservatives were all about cutting costs, guess not.

@seawulf575 I never said no countries. Countries are fine. Immigrants need to abide by the laws of the country, including tax laws. And everything else you wrote is wrong too. I recommend you buy the book I linked to above and read it.

So @seawulf575 calling it fear mongering is just avoiding the issues, is that sorta like every time the dems accuse something that the Rep/cons can’t easily answer is just a hate issue, your all about hate.

@SQUEEKY2 The next time a 92 year old woman is raped and murdered by an illegal, I’ll remind @seawulf he’s just full of hate. You are utterly ridiculous, kanuck.

He is full of hate, and I never said open borders.
You do need laws, but putting children in cages aint the answer either.
And you make it sound like that kind of rape happens all the time.

@SQUEEKY2 I’ve posted a list several times.

Say bye bye to your forest service pal.

@KNOWITALL I really do wish that you could drop that vacuous nonsense like the 92 year old woman. The accusation that the motive for storming our borders is primarily a matter of criminal enterprise just won’t float. You will never prove that undocumented aliens have any greater propensity for crime than your ancestors or mine who came here. It’s another fatuous argument suitable for the great unwashed, and a position decidedly unworthy of you.

@SQUEEKY2 I think your argument about other countries is a bit skewed. How about this: Name a country where illegal immigration is legal…where it isn’t a crime. Oh, I know! Let’s consider Canada. You know…your own country. You are so busy trying to tell us how we should set up our borders, so let’s consider your country. What happens if someone enters your country illegally? Oh yeah…they get arrested and put in jail. And for legal immigration? do you let everyone that applies in? No. You are selective about the people that can make a contribution. They even have to pass a test to show they are acceptable. Isn’t it funny that you are worried about the US borders when your own country is draconian in relation to what you espouse for us?

@stan I’ll continue to stand for Americans and legal immigrants rights. They are human beings, too. They have names like Molly Tibbets.
It’s so interesting that you truly are so clueless about your fellow Americans. I guess when Trump wins again you can just act surprised.

@Caravanfan No, you never said no countries. But if you have no borders and allow anyone and everyone to come and go as they like, what is your country? It is a plot of land that has no basis for ownership therefore no country. Yes, you did say you wanted no countries…you just tried to hide that by not actually saying the words. And I notice you tried changing the dialogue to “immigrants”. Here’s a question for you: if you have no borders, how can you have immigrants? What are they immigrating into? A country? What country? It doesn’t exist if you have nothing defining it or its sphere of influence. With no country, you can’t have immigrants. If you are trying to say you want countries, you need to define those countries. Now try doing that without borders.

@SQUEEKY2 Isn’t it also funny that you want to discount the crime done by illegals in this country? I know they don’t support your views of how we should run our country, but they are facts. So let me ask, since you want to discount these events….how many violent crimes have to be committed by illegal aliens before they become important to you? Or would it only take one if it was, say, your child that was the victim? Or your wife? Your 92 year old grandma?

@seawulf575 No, again, you are completely misrepresenting what I said.
To be clear:

1) Countries are great
2) Borders are great
3) Immigration across the borders should be open
4) Those immigrants must abide by the country’s laws.

I hope that clears it up for you.

@seawulf He did say that above. He actually helps poor people, too, they aren’t a vague concept.

Yeah your right illegals are the only ones committing horrible crime, screw arrested they should just be shot when spotted,I guess the same way cops only shoot unarmed black men.

@SQUEEKY2 Nobody said they were the only ones, we don’t need more. That’s the entire point. Our legal and justice system are overwhelmed.

I never thought I’d say this, especially here, but ya’ll need to go back and listen to Obama’s speeches again. Geesh.

And I never once said open borders are the way, and of course your system is overwhelmed, you throw one in jail.
I can’t understand why these people zero in on the states, you have a health care system that a ton of your own citizens can’t access.
The states them selves don’t respect other countries borders.

@SQUEEKY2 Because bleeding heart liberals are under some delusion that America can help everyone. We can’t even get meds to insulin dependent people or cancer patients who just lay down and die. Or our vets. Ask @stanley about the homeless camps in San Francisco.
I’m not even kidding when I say a jungle in Mexico with no running water or electric sounds better than half the liberal cities in America. At least they aren’t mapping human feces piles on an app in Mexico.

I know what will work give the wealthy another stupid big tax cut, that always works.
Paying a living wage never works, we can’t have people actually getting ahead that is for the wealthy alone.
Universal health care where people can get access to the care they need that’s bad to,I mean you got to support the over priced health care insurance industry.

@SQUEEKY2 You’re right about that. Both parties are so far out there they actually make communism look good to some Americans. Unbelievable.

@KNOWITALL you need to get out more. Those homeless camps are a direct reflection of the fact that EVERYONE wants to live here. You are correct and should remain smug in your assurance that turds will not pile up in places where no one, wants to live, be it the jungles of Mexico or your little, town of Bugtussle Missouri. But ask your kids where they would prefer to live. There are too many of them HERE, a lot of them criminals eyeing our 92’ year old women I’ m sure.

@stanley Hillbillies sneer about San Fran now it’s so bad. You are too funny, Stan.

@stanley Actually the joke about a raped and murdered 92 yr old woman isn’t funny at all. Shame on you.

“Bugtussle, Missouri”! That’s funny, I don’t care who ya are!

@Dutchess I giggled, not gonna lie!! Stan’s funny sometimes.

You girls are too young to remember, but Bugtussle was Minnie Pearl’s mythical hometown.

When I hear “open borders” I picture a situation where nothing marks the border between Mexico and the U.S. other than a change in road texture and a sign that says “United States/Mexico” with a slash through the one you’re leaving.

@stan I adored Minnie and I’m 47. Honestly it sounded familiar so that’s neat, glad you told us!

@stanleybmanly Minnie Pearl’s mythical hometown was Grinder’s Switch, Tennessee.

Bugtussle, Missouri, in the Ozarks, is the Beverly Hillbillies’ hometown. It was inspired by what is now Branson, Missouri. A lot of towns such as Calico Rock on the Beverly Hillbillies are real towns.

@Demosthenes Yes, exactly. Just like it is in Europe.

”...change in road texture….” that’s how you know you’ve drivin out of Kansas and into Oklahoma. Freal.

@Yellowdog Oh wow. I’m about an hour north of Branson. Thanks for the factoid.

Granny did say she was from the Smokey Mtns which are in Tennessee. But other than that, everything else about the show suggests the Ozarks. Including the name of the towns and railroad.

During the days of Shepherd of the Hills, Branson was an itty bitty place. Shepherd of the Hills brought the Ozark culture into the mainstream.

Minnie Pearl’s town of Grinder’s Switch is based on a real place, her ideal hometown, but has idealized it. Grinder’s Switch is south-west of Nashville. Centerville, Littlelot, and Grinder’s Switch, Bucksnort, and Furnace are all kind of in the same little hollar.

Apparently there is a genuine Bugtussle somewhere in Kentucky. Thanks @Yellowdog for straightening me out on Minnie & Grinders Switch.

There probably is. Seems like I heard of it somewhere in the trivia. There are a lot of strange names in small, isolated towns.

To me, open borders mean easy traveling. The border between Germany and its neighbouring countries is just a road with a sign saying “You are leaving Germany. No more barrelling down the highway”. In case of emergency, I’m sure different points of entry would be sealed off very quickly. But for everyday travelling, it makes the process much more simple and does foster a sense of connection. There’s not much rivalry between European countries. Nobody wants to miss out on the benefits of having a large-scale playground to move around in, so everyone tries to behave and not get kicked out.

It’s interesting to me that the US started out exactly like that. More and more parts of the continent were included to create a larger union. I wonder if Trump would change his mind about that wall if you could explain to him that he might manage to gather up some lovely warm states down there.

@longgone Many Americans love Mexico. I saw we buy it and all become one with open borders. That doesn’t mean I’d support other countries illegally entering our expanded area though, we still need to place immigration limits like other countries. Win win.

Is Mexico for sale?
Look at what happened when Trump wanted to buy Greenland.

@SQUEEKY2 I’m sure it’s not, it was a joke, because all this angst over a border with a country we freely run in and out of and love, as Americans. They want to come here, we want to go there, it’s nonsense and there has to be a better solution.

@KNOWITALL Whati do you imagine might happen if Mexico merged with the United States? Would your or my standard of living improve or deteriorate? What would become of the wages paid today’s average working stiff? Desperate impoverished people are the greatest gift to predatory capitalism you will ever see, and the underlying reason that “Americans” no longer can earn a living doing the work which supported most of our families when we were growing up.

@stanleybmanly Without doing actual research on how that kind of thing ended up historically, I would guess not much would change.
Here in the middle, many construction & roofing jobs go to underbidding hispanic crews, most of the hospitality workforce are hispanic, as are many factory workers. In the last 20 years, it’s changed dramatically.
Seems to me wages have already decreased, as well, compared to the 90’s.

Once the good ole boy jobs go, like govt jobs, such as the road crews and DOT’s, and we integrate more into law enforcement, it should even things out a bit better. Giving them more opportunity to better their families situation and make more than whatever the crew boss decides to gives them.

That’s EXACTLY my point. We are living through what happens when an impoverished surplus of workers bumps into an economy with workers earning a living wage. Now extrapolate the results of merging an entire nation defined as “an impoverished surplus of workers” with our own. Which is why your kids or mine will never achieve middle class existence working the trades and crafts with which our parents reared us. The American Dream has been displaced by the fight for the scraps.

@stan Just for the record, I chose not to have kids.
:D
I think we’re on the same page but what is actionable about your post? Do you have a solution or just observing the world as it burns?

The answer to that question depends on a realistic assessment (particularly in this country) on whether or not there is enough to go around. Our Mexican workforce and that mass of migrants CERTAINLY thinks there is a HUGE sulrplus, and they vote it with their feet. . My view is that there is more than enough to sustain and even improve on the standard of living of the middle classes and certainly those falling behind. And if IT isn’t going around, WHERE is it going?

@longgone I love the sign “You are leaving Germany. No more barrelling down the highway”. So funny!

The countries south of America’s border still have large numbers of poor people, they are still considered developing countries (third world) so incorporating those countries into America would likely cost current Americans a lot of money, unless we changed the structure of our social systems.

Or, who knows, maybe the countries would quickly transform once the American structure was put into place in the new territories.

Maybe that’s similar to some of the countries to your east, you’re in Germany right? I mix your location up with some other Jellies in Europe I think.

@stanleybmanly I’m not afraid of change but who do you see leading your world?

My world? Consider the present situation, and why it must persist, and probably get worse. Manual labor in the United States is a certification for impoverishment. The reason for this is the bleak poverty South of our borders driving labor here to displace our citizens. Now we are told these people do work Americans won’t do. That isn’t true. There is no such thing as a job Americans won’t do. There are merely jobs Americans won’t do for $2 an hour. The pronounced result of this, particularly in places like my town is that you cannot call a plumber or electrician with any expectation that whoever shows up was born in this country. The claim is also made that migrants are the only reason we have affordable food and services. To which I reply that we seemed to find life both affordable and improving in prior days without the destruction of the middle class. SO exactly who profits as the overall standard of living declines in our country? Who is pulling ahead regardless? Who can afford to hide behind the barricaded gates with immigrant guards to protect them from the rest of us?

Never mind the answers to such questions. I believe the solution to our dilemma is to face up to the situation as it exists, and do exactly with Honduras and Guatemala what we did with Japan, and the entirety of Western Europe at the close of World War II.