Should we get the economy back up and running even if it means more people will die of COVID-19?

Some actuary probably has a specific answer to the value of a human life. 20 years ago it was $5 million each.

How many more people?

I just heard Dr Gawande on PBS Newshour saying we should keep the restrictions for another 2 to 3 weeks. If it follows the pattern of China, there will be a spike within that time and then it may ease and some people can go back to work. I feel it is worth sticking with the restrictions to give health care workers the space and health to try to cope.

The economy will come back in time but yes, we may face a depression. I can live with that in preference to dying.

For Trump, the financial and political disorder for him is the disease, and that matters more than our well-being. The cure (or mitigation, if not cure) for us is costing him, and he doesn’t want to pay. He’d sacrifice any of us in a second to protect his personal interests, as we know; and if we live in a blue state, half a second.

When the ICU beds are all occupied, the death rate of Covid-19 is frighteningly high. All those deaths will affect others. Can we really afford to plummet into a depression in the traditional sense? Will we, as a nation, work hard and thrive while we are grieving for friends and family members?

I doubt it. I think, similar to wars, a high death toll will be passed down to future generations and cause decades of mental illness.

The idea of “getting the economy back up and running” with a constantly sickening population seems like an oxymoronic concept. Businesses that can’t keep workers just don’t do that well.

Trump was running for reelection on the strength of the economy.
With everything turning to shit, he wants to get everybody back to work, restore the economy, and accept the deaths of those who didn’t survive.
He will probably say they would have died anyway.

Millions of businesses will go under in the next couple of weeks.
Hundreds of millions will have drastic lifestyle changes and millions out of work.

I don’t think that’s just Trump’s problem

I think if we can get testing done we could identify vulnerable cities and states and let other areas go back to a more normal, but you have to stop travel in and out of those states to almost nothing.

Where I live older populations need to clamp down and do their best not to get infected. It would rage through where I live and kill a lot of people, we need strict guidelines here. We seem to be doing reasonably well so far where I live, but the majority of people are self isolating except for grocery shopping. Many of us only go to the store once a week or every two weeks.

Where I live this week they are doing testing for people who are asymptomatic or very mild symptoms as a research study to see how many in that sample are positive. Specifically interested in older people random in the population who aren’t sick. People can just volunteer. There is also a test sight if you are symptomatic.

Other areas that have many more younger people, the younger people can create herd immunity. Some of them will die to though, but very few. The people at most risk should be protected. Try to not let them get infected.

I think we go through this week, maybe one more, and see where we are at.

He has factories that usually manufacture something else, making medical equipment, hand sanitizer, and other necessities. He has positioned hospital ships to provide extra beds. He has Carnival cruise ships on standby.

The Senate GOP already made clear their position. Business over people. Truly they don’t give a sh*t! Lol

Here is Krugman’s opinion in the NYT

___________________

By Paul Krugman
Opinion Columnist

March 23, 2020

If you want a quick summary of the state of play over fiscal stimulus legislation, here it is: Republicans insist that we should fight a plague with trickle-down economics and crony capitalism.

Democrats, for some reason, don’t agree, and think we should focus on directly helping Americans in need.

And if legislation is stalled, as it appears to be as I write this (although things change fast when we’re on Covid time), it’s because Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader, is holding needy Americans hostage in an attempt to blackmail Democrats into giving Donald Trump a $500 billion slush fund.

First, let’s talk about the nature of the economic crisis we face. At the worst point in the 2007–2009 recession, America was losing around 800,000 jobs per month. Right now, we’re probably losing several million jobs every week.

What’s causing these job losses? So far it’s not what usually happens in a recession, when businesses lay off workers because consumers aren’t spending enough. What we’re seeing instead are the effects of social distancing: restaurants, entertainment venues and many other establishments have been closed to limit the spread of the coronavirus.

And we neither can nor should bring those jobs back until the pandemic has faded. What this tells us is that right now our highest priority isn’t job creation, it’s disaster relief: giving families and small businesses that have lost their incomes enough money to afford necessities while the shutdown lasts.

Oh, and providing generous aid to hospitals, clinics and other health care providers in this time of incredible stress.

Now, while social distancing is currently driving employment destruction, there will eventually be a second, more conventional round of job losses as distressed families and businesses cut back on spending. So there is also a case for stimulus to sustain overall spending — although helping Americans in need will provide much of that stimulus, by also helping them continue to spend.

So what’s in the stimulus bill that McConnell is trying to ram through the Senate? It grudgingly provides some, but only some, of the aid Americans in distress will need. Funny, isn’t it, how helping ordinary Americans is always framed as a “Democratic demand”?

And even there the legislation includes poison pills, like a provision that would deny aid to many nonprofit institutions like nursing homes and group homes for the disabled.

But it also includes a $500 billion slush fund for corporations that the Trump administration could allocate at its discretion, with essentially no oversight. This isn’t just terrible policy; it’s an insult to our intelligence.

After all, it would be hard to justify giving any administration that kind of power to reward its friends and punish those it considers enemies. It’s almost inconceivable that anyone would propose giving such authority to the Trump administration.

Remember, we’ve had more than three years to watch this administration in action. We’ve seen Trump refuse to disclose anything about his financial interests, amid abundant evidence that he is profiting at the public’s expense.

Trump’s trade war has been notable for the way in which favored companies somehow manage to get tariff exemptions while others are denied. And as you read this, Trump is refusing to use his authority to require production of essential medical gear.

So it would be totally out of character for this administration to allocate huge sums fairly and in the public interest.

Cronyism aside, there’s also the issue of competence. Why would you give vast discretionary power to a team that utterly botched the response to the coronavirus because Trump didn’t want to hear bad news?

Why would you place economic recovery efforts in the hands of people who were assuring us just weeks ago that the virus was contained and the economy was “holding up nicely”?

Finally, we’ve just had a definitive test of the underlying premise of the McConnell slush fund — that if you give corporations money without strings attached they will use it for the benefit of workers and the economy as a whole.

In 2017 Republicans rammed through a huge corporate tax cut, which they assured us would lead to higher wages and surging business investment.

Neither of these things happened; instead, corporations basically used the money to buy back their own stock. Why would this time be any different?

As I write this, Republicans are ranting that Democrats are sabotaging the economy by refusing to pass McConnell’s bill — which is a bit rich for those who remember the G.O.P.’s scorched-earth opposition to everything Barack Obama proposed.

But in any case, if McConnell really wants action, he could get it easily either by dropping his demand for a Trump-controlled slush fund or by passing the stimulus bill House Democrats are likely to offer very soon.

And maybe that will happen within a few days. As I said, we’re now living on Covid time. But right now Republicans seem dead set on exploiting a crisis their own president helped create by his refusal to take the pandemic seriously.

@JLeslie I desperately need to be tested to give some peace of mind to people I have to work with with no choice. I’m asymptomatic. So far. If only I can beam myself over where you are and then get back here by 8 am tomorrow. Where’s Scotty when you need him? Lol

They are trying to make home self tests available.

@mazingerz88

The Democrats have a long pork list of political demands, none having to do with COVID 19. They stalled the stimulus package very suddenly and went home. This has nothing to do with business over people. It is the Democrats who put their own agenda, which has nothing to do with COVID 19, over the lives and livelihood of the American people.

I’m so sick of politics. Clearly none of them give a shit about any of us, the idea that any one in power cares a lick about you or I over money is a joke.

I don’t feel hopeful that a lot of people aren’t going to die in the coming months. I believe this is just the beginning. A lot of us are already falling through the cracks just as many were before any of this started. Perhaps if enough of us are brutalized by the impact of this we will finally understand that pointing fingers and screaming for our fellow Americans to hear our perspective is not effective in any way, maybe then we’ll remember the strength in our unity and actually change something.

This is the premise behind herd immunity
Theory being, if 60% of the population have the virus, eventually it becomes dormant.
It’s a stark outlook though, many more will inevitably perish.

Lifting restrictions, would be putting our heads in the sand.

Trump, his family, and those in the highest level of government, are probably safest of all, and guaranteed to get the best treatment if they contract the virus…

They’re playing with house money, and have little to lose. Other than money. Money for them, or their cronies.

For a split second, I thought both parties would work together, for once. WRONG!

As of a few days ago, America was leading the WORLD, in percentages of new cases. The government waiting too long to hit the brakes. The thought of taking the foot off the brakes now, even though we’re in a full skid, is just ridiculous…

America’s government has failed it’s citizens, SO MANY times.
This is certainly no exception.

I hate to say it. But. I think we should focus on stopping the spread of the virus, at whatever cost. We’ll take a massive hit. But. The sooner we get this dealt with, the sooner things can get back to normal…

Most of us, are suffering. One way, or another. That sucks…

But. The government, needs to get their shit together. Get things done. Get medical equipment distributed. Get test kits, by the millions. Pump money, into the working class’ hands. And deal with the ramifications, later.
Otherwise. There will be a longer road, to recovery.

If they keep fucking around. There will be nothing, to recover…

The virus, is one thing. But. When nobody has water, power, or a place to live, shit’s going to get REAL…

Remember. A recent study said, many Americans, couldn’t deal with a $500 emergency. We are already past that…

So when the deaths hit 100K and people you know have died and it is safe to say 50% out of the people out there have it are you really going to want to go eat in a restaurant? No, you will be hiding in your room. Either way the economy is fucked.

But that will be a long term fuuucked. Much of a worse fucking than just taking a short term hit.

If we had testing for immunity, the immune could be free to help sick people and to shop and go back to normal life without fear. That testing is just as important as getting tested when you’re sick.

We probably already have hundreds of thousands of people who are immune in America.

I think they are still trying to confirm immunity is created when you have the virus, like how you get immunity from measles once you have it.

@ucme Herd immunity is usually defined as over 80%, but I’m guessing that maybe at 60% the virus would die down until the next outbreak. Even with 80% we get outbreaks of diseases.

If we isolate people more we might get through this initial pandemic at 30–40% and buy time to create a vaccine to achieve herd immunity.

The British Medical Office spokesperson stated 60% of Britons.

@ucme I think I read your original post too fast, I thought I saw you write herd. I’d agree by 60% it probably will go dormant for a while. Not that I’m any sort of expert, I’m just going by what I’ve read written by experts.

Hong Kong has been warning us to take our time. They got the virus under control but were chomping at the bit to get back to normal. That was when it came back to kick ass and take name. I’d prefer to stay inside a little while longer to keep it from coming back. It’s not going to just go away because it’s inconvenient for trump. Speaking of, he would sacrifice his own children in order to make a dollar so the rest of us are inconsequential

@SEKA Trump’s statements have been in response to an economic stimulus package. The COVID Task force has not changed its position.

The stimulus package was needed because if businesses go under, some places will see as high as 50% unemployment, and crucial businesses and services will not be available.

Before any of you say that the $3 trillion for this cause is excessive, Nancy Pelosi got even more than $3 Trillion in the Democrat’s own “wish list,” That’s a lot of pork; the biggest heist in world history, holding the economic stimulus package hostage,.

This is not about Trump making profit. Its about places being in existence for crucial supplies and services. and the American populace having somewhere to find work.

Yeah. What he ^ said.

@Yellowdog Bullshit. The Reps would give money to businesses without recquiring them not to fire people. They can take the money and may fire you and you can do nothing about it. That’s what Dems want to prevent in that bill. If I’m not mistaken.

And which items do you find unacceptable in the Dem’s pork list? Don’t compare costs. If it’s needed then it’s needed. And who’s questioning or saying it’s excessive? You did that as a feeble attempt to make Dems look bad? Really? Lol

I suggest you find out what Pelosi and Schumer’s demands were.

^^So you have no idea what’s in that wish list. Ok.

I suggest that you suggest to your Republican clowns to stop bullshitting the American people.

Yes, I kind of wonder why anyone would think giving a 500 billion slush fund to the Treasury Secretary to bail out corporations with no accountability would be a good thing for the American people. Thank God the Democrats have stuck to their guns and a better “deal” has been struck. But sure, let’s bail out the airlines and the cruise lines who have never taken fiscal responsibility once again!

If the corporations have to pay back the money with some interest I can get on board with it, but I also want some sort of new rules that money needs to be set aside by large companies in the future to get through difficult times. Corporations that make millions in profit yearly should be able to handle a slow down or shut down in business for a month every 5 to 10 years without going bankrupt! If people are expected to have 6 months of living expenses on hand for a rainy day, then certainly we can require large profitable companies to keep money on hand in case there is a pandemic, flood, hurricane, war, terrorist attack, earthquake, name what you want, things go wrong.

When a new drug comes to market pharma companies are required to set aside money for lawsuits. This sort of thing can be done.

Well, they agreed on something. I haven’t heard details yet.

Some details. https://youtu.be/KbIy7zL74G0

Trump’s statements have been in response to an economic stimulus package
@Yellowdog Bullshit times infinity. trumps statements have been in response to the fact that his companies are losing money every day! He had meant to set up the stimulus package so he could rape the system to shore up his own companies, but the Dems put a stop to that.

Can you explain to me what Easter has to do with the stimulus package? Are you ready to be a loyal American and die for your country so that little jerk who wouldn’t give up his spring break in order to keep us all healthier?

Americans need businesses open for goods, services, and employment. Businesses are trying desperately to keep their workers financially solvent and producing whatever goods and services so that they will be available.

I do not know the current status, but Pelosi’s plan included 300 million for the Kennedy Center, and similar high dollar amounts for the National Endowment for the Arts, tax credits for wind and solar, $15 per hour minimum wage (no aid for businesses who pay their employess less than $15 per hour) full funding of planned parenthood, amnesty for illegal aliens living in this country, same day voting (same day as registered) with no I.D. requirements, among other things. The unemployment deal would mean the average worker would make about $900 per week more than they would make employed.

These have nothing to do with keeping businesses open, keeping workers compensated, finding work, or the productivity (goods and services) of the businesses to keep the economy and civilization running, nor do they have anything to do with the Corona virus.

Trump will be a billionaire no matter what—its the economy and the functioning of businesses and civilization that is at stake. Not the right of illegal aliens to register and vote, nor the Kennedy Center.

Please note: I can make a sound argument without allusions to bullshit or streaming vitriol. The reality I am dealing with in Nashville (COVID-19 amid hurricane relief efforts) makes me wonder why I am even dealing with people whose hatred of Trump outweighs their concern for the country. I am convinced that some of you would love to see millions of businesses close and a collapsed economy if it will make Trump look bad. Please get a grip and be part of the solution.

President Trump isn’t going to change anything. He will leave it up to state and local governments to choose how to go forward with house arrests. He is just feeling bad for people and wants (in his own unusual way) to offer some comfort.

Sorry, I don’t feel comforted that he’s asking millions of people to die. He doesn’t feel sorry for anybody but himself! Propping up the corporations and keeping his friends rich is futile. Once those millions die, who the hell is going to work in the corporations to keep them up and running? The truth is that the rich need the poor to keep them rich and do the shit work that nobody else is willing to do and the poor need the rich to give them jobs so they ca do that shit work

Not defending Trump, but he’s being told by experts that flattening the curve is spreading out people dying over time, so probably he thinks all of them dying faster is like ripping off a band aid. Also, the more testing we do the lower the death percentage will be.

The catastrophe is what our medical professionals will go through handling huge numbers at once and there probably would be some more deaths from C19 if we let it simply spread through the population, I’m not sure if he really understand that, but economic despair can be deadly also.

I do think he is weighing it all. I don’t believe he is ok with people dying. I do think greed and ignorance got us in the horrible spot we are in now, which I don’t forgive him for, and I blame our society also. I wish we had locked down a couple of months ago. If he had stopped flights coming into America and done testing back during our flu season we could have isolated people. That’s the tricky part, COVID19 came to our shores during flu season. Hard to notice it as unusual illness activity initially. Americans should have been put on alert long ago. We should have been testing long ago. Again that was greed to me. Money is at the root of all evil. Make sure his pharma friends make the money in the test kits.

What I wish was that we had a national surplus rather than deficit to be prepared, and that people had money in savings to ride out some hard times, and large corporation have money set aside too. Additionally, I wish that we didn’t inflate markets by buying on credit so much, and that culturally I think we need to temper that people over and over again feel like nothing can go wrong and we can’t lose. We need to be prepared for financial rainy days and then we won’t be so reactive when they happen. We need to be willing to blunt the highs to ride out the lows.

What I remind people is even if governors lift some restrictions, we the people can still stay inside and companies can still allow working from home. I know some people will feel they don’t have a choice, that bothers me more than you can understand, that is maybe another Q. I worry about that for essential workers already.

I think we need to get effective masks for everyone who is interacting in a public setting. That would help a lot in my opinion.

trump screws up big time and he knows it.

@Yellowdog Republicans sanctimonious sentiments favoring businesses and treating illegal immigrants like dogs is evil. There is money that would be forked out anyway!

Way to go rationalizing your hate. That’s always been trumps successful brand. He’ll be proud of you.

Why wouldn’t Americans with conscience and souls not want to help everyone they can? Or at least TRY!

Hating illegal immigrants at this time…especially at this time WHEN YOUR CHARACTERS ARE BEING TESTED…shows how really pitiful the state of mind of some Americans could be, starting with this so called president who is a total piece of shit!

How, exactly, is Trump mistreating illegal immigrants? What does COVID even have to do with illegal immigrants?

Are you saying we should give amnesty to illegal immigrants and implement socialist agenda before working on impending COVID-19 related issues?

Latin America has less COVID19 than us. If they have it in their country it’s most likely from the US or Europe.

I think the problem is one of Trump’s men said something like 90% of immigrants have COVID19, which is ridiculous. He it said when they were announcing closing both borders in North America. I think it was a homeland security guy. I haven’t heard much about that since that press conference. I linked it somewhere. Either on fluther or Facebook. I’m not sure now.

Here’s the video. You can forward to 18:00. He didn’t say 90% he said the vast majority. I really doubt the majority from our southern border have C19 in recent weeks.

https://youtu.be/yoUCDJ6PxUE

Meanwhile, I agree with closing the borders, and I agree immigration right now puts the immigrants and border patrol at risk, and that detention centers would be hot beds of corona spread, but not because most of them have the virus, but because one would infect many in close quarters like a detention center.

It’s another dog whistle.

We are still allowing migrant workers on work visas to come in, they just as easily could have the virus. Even wealthy and powerful people can catch the virus. Presidents, princesses, everyone.

@Yellowdog You’re the one who mentioned the issue of amnesty in your post.

And my point is even during the most precarious of stituations, even if the whole country is about to fall off this planet into the “void”...people can still do other things while at it.

This is what good and capable leaders do.

Thinking small is un-American.

Amnesty for illegal immigrants was in Pelosi’s bill. Along with 300 million for the Kennedy center and full funding for Planned Parenthood.

No vote to aid U.S. workers until amnesty (and the rest of the bucket list) was agreed to.
I think most of it has been taken out,

POTUS spoke of the Kennedy center. He said that he did leave that in, but scaled back.
I haven’t seen anyone dispute that yet.

@Yellowdog I’m with you that bills shouldn’t have unrelated things in them.

@Yellowdog You and your Fox News BS. In your post you made it seem that “amnesty for illegal immigrants” was part of the stimulus bill Dems were pushing. Unless that website I went to reported inaccurately that was not the case.

That was a separate bill, a farm bill. Which includes a plan for undocumented farm workers to eventually get a green card. THAT WAS NOT IN THE STIMULUS BILL. A Bullshit Bill should be written for you. Lol

^^Well if that’s the case, then that’s a whole different story.

And even if Pelosi inserted that farm bill into the stimulus bill, why wouldn’t people want to support American farmers who want to legalize these illegal farm workers which they need? Aren’t farms also businesses? Don’t we still need food produced?

@mazingerz88 Why is planned parenthood in there? I see the logic for the farmers, that makes sense to me at this time. I personally want planned parenthood funded, and they are quite obviously a medical service in the country, and we need every medical service functioning right now that can help, but that obviously is going to be a point of contention.

Since an agreement was made and I believe sent to Trump for his signature, it might make more sense for everyone to look at the actual agreement rather than the, no doubt, bargianing chips that were used __on both sides.__

@JLeslie I guess it was there as bargaining chip in case the Republicans continue refusing to tweak their slush fund plans?

But I’m not a politician who’s been in Capitol Hill for decades so that’s pure speculation.

@mazingerz88 Could be.

The funds need to be spent on relief for people out of work and the businesses and industries that make civilization possible, They do not need to be spent on future subsidies for the arts, windmills, or other pork projects,

Republicans once complained that Obama did a 700+ billion stimulus package that mostly went to pork projects but no intended productivity purpose, Well, there are TRILLIONS in this bill, which, although a lot of it (not all) now taken out, had nothing to do with business, employment, or the COVID-19 virus,

@Yellowdog I hope you’re not thinking of just paintings, sculptures and buildings when you said leave out the “arts” for now. And that no human beings are involved in all that process.

The arts. Yeah. They’re not like those people who owns corporations and have people working for them that you want to prioritize.

I suggest someone paste a link to the details of the bill before we argue with a paper tiger. Because what I read about the Republicans initial stimulus bill included no accountability for bail-outs to big industries and no transparency as to who got what, including bail outs for Trump hotels and properties.

So if we want to argue on specious rumors and without links, let’s at least argue from both sides. Otherwise, post credible links or shut up.

^^Days before the OP posted this that’s what Schumer said to CNN as one of the reasons they said no to the bill. I don’t think he was lying about that specific part of the bill.