If Jesus had been a protester while Trump was walking from the White House to that Episcopalian church for that photo op, would Attorney General Barr have tear-gassed the group of protesters?

Jesus would have been nailed to a cross.

As a follower of Jesus will tell you, Jesus was there as the Christ is present whenever people stand up for the oppressed:

⁰Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
¹¹Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
¹²Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Yes.

Romans 13:1–2 says: “Obey the government, for God is the One who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.”

Nothing would have changed.

Really? The presence of Jesus Christ would make a difference? How would anyone know who he was?? If he supposedly was there, whoever it was, was a fake, for I am the real Jesus Christ, and I said so.

It would have changed nothing.
And Trump would have just called it Fake!

@KNOWITALL—Trump is not the government. He is a temporary presider of the government, appointed by the votes of people.

And then there’s this:
“Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ).[Matthew 22:21]

Which sort of runs against @KNOWITALL ‘s comment

@elbanditoroso Nah, it really doesn’t.

Of course he would, they don’t care about the protesters,just to move them out of the way.
( Bully mentality)

@KNOWITALL ” There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power.” So God put North Korea’s sadistic, sick government in place, the people who tortured 17 year old Otto Warmbier to the point he became a brain damaged, incoherent, blathering idiot, and they finally sent him home to his mom and dad to die…GOD did that???? What the hell was he thinking?

@KNOWITALL

Thing is, that doesn’t really jive what that Jesus himself taught. Then there’s the notion many have that the passage in question was not written by Paul, but rather was inserted in to text by an unknown author at a latter date.

I’m not arguing with atheists over what the bible says. :D Good try, though.

I had the same kinds of questions when I was born again….and got the same kind of reponses. (Don’t ask questions like that.) If you don’t know, just say you don’t know. Say it makes no sense, given everything we were taught about God.

If you ever want atheists consider what religion might say about something, it would be wise not to be dismissive and rude.

It’s OK. I haven’t always been an atheist. I knew “the answer” when I asked the question. It’s always the same old answer… coupled with “don’t ask questions!”

Anyway, to answer the question, he most certainly would because there was an illegal alien in the crowd.

@Dutchess_III Actually you know the answer is that God only knows the reason for those things. Maybe it can change the world for the better at some point, who knows.

@elbandit I stopped at the first F$!k God here.

@KNOWITALL

What about a pastor of several decades? Would you argue with him about it? ‘Cause that’s the one who first discussed that with me (see, unlike many others he wasn’t afraid to question or debate long-standing doctrine or beliefs).

I got so sick of non-answers like, “God works in mysterious ways.” “Only God knows.” If he was real he’d be as logical as the universe he created.

@Darth I think we’ve all learned this week, here and in the news, religion is subjective. Listening is more important than arguing, so probably not.

@KNOWITALL you can’t actually believe the will of the government—any government tantamount to the word of your God. I refuse to accept so slanderous an insult to yourself as credible.

Truth

@KNOWITALL That is a fiercely debated passage that you cite, and it cannot be blindly applied.

Christians are charged with speaking up against unjust laws and unjust governments. If they are to obey the government, then they should be silent as to abortion rights (guaranteed by the Supreme Court) and silent on churches being closed because of the pandemic.

You cannot have it both ways.

@stanleybmanly Of course I obey the laws of the land and as far as I know, you do as well. Am I right? Even though you hate Trump, you still pay your taxes, I assume?

@zenvelo That’s why we fight to change the laws and vote accordingly. And it’s working.

Are you suggesting Pro Lifers should destroy the clinics and doctors since we disagree with their legal right to an abortion?

Obeying the laws is not equivalent to the government responsible for those laws as reflecting the will of God. I would remind you that our government has declared (for example) abortion to be the law of the land, and the right of every woman residing within it. And I defy you to prove that I hate Trump, merely because I find him despicable.

@stanleybmanly We change laws and use the legal system. We don’t break the laws, or at least most of us try not to.

I think we all know who Dr. Tiller is and almost the entire Christian community condemned the murder, except the extremists. You want us to remember that verse as a firm boundary, trust me.

We shouldn’t oughtta be changing laws. Those laws were put in place by GOD! OK. By human law makers. Who were put in place by GOD.

@KNOWITALL Plenty of clinics and medical professionals have been destroyed/murdered by anti-choice demonstrators over the years. Bombings, assassinations, harassment, all counter to a woman’s autonomy over her own body. The people who committed such acts are not obeying your interpretation of Romans 13.

William Barr’s actions to foster a photo op for Trump were of questionable legality,not the divine right of an unelected official.

In the context of this question, the protestors were working within the legal system. They were peacefully exercising their first amendment right. Tear gassing and rubber bulleting them out of the area was overriding that legal right in the interest of political optics. It was Trump who was not honoring the laws of the government, not the protestors.

@zenvelo Yes, that’s what I said. There are extremists that foster violence and some of those didn’t even affiliate as Christians but as activists.

I’m hearing very different reports on that ‘photo op’.

You don’t have to rely on reports. There is video footage corroborating the events as described by the people who experienced it. Please don’t buy into the spin. If you defend the constitution, please do so here, too. We the people.

I’m hearing very different reports on that ‘photo op’.

I hear from my neighbor that a huge alien spaceship is hiding behind Mars. It must be true.

@Call_Me_Jay If you have verified facts from a non-biased source, post them. Pretty simple. (eyeroll)

_ If you have verified facts from a non-biased source_

“I’m hearing very different reports”

You’re the one insinuating something. Back up your words or sit on your hands.

It’s a mistake to conflate “I think a source has a bias” and “therefore, the source is always wrong, always playing an angle, never to be believed.” The facts of what happened in this situation are not in dispute. Why the reluctance to acknowledge them?

And further, what non-biased sources are you reading that claim the facts are different?

@Call_Me_Jay Didn’t I just prove yesterday that the WH guardhouse was set on fire when none of you believe me and just thought it was funny to say Trump was cowering in a bunker?

haha, do your own research, I already did mine, which is why I say the facts are in dispute.

@Soubresaut
The media are all disputing the use of tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets to start with. USA Today, Washington Post, WUSA9, etc…

Yesterday people here couldn’t even decide which church it was. smh.

Why do do conservatives have such an allergy to providing their sources?

@KNOWITALL—no, they are not

@Soubresaut Yes, they actually are, but you didn’t post those did you? I see how it works for you Trump haters. Biased facts. Cool.

@Dutchess_III Probably for the same reason Democrats love abortions.

I posted the first articles that showed up in search. (Actually, for the WUSA9 article I scrolled down a few to find one that didn’t lead with statements from the priests.) It’s not about Trump hate, it’s about acknowledging the facts, and not pretending that those are up for interpretation.

I know you’ve said in other threads that any defense you offer Trump is purely in service of defending the constitution. I’ve been gone a few years so I’m sure I’ve missed some things, but I personally have not seen you defend others “for the sake of the constitution” the same way you defend Trump’s actions. I believe what you say about your intentions, but I have a hard time matching that with what I see posted here.

Is this what you are citing as the Washington Post walking back the fact of the attacks. https://scontent.fewr1-5.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/103125303_130199162014217_4660398158814117888_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=OB5Z8d91Pc4AX_nm3yj&_nc_ht=scontent.fewr1-5.fna&oh=1d6d05cd1edca589b56200669babee9c&oe=5F0000CE

If it is, I do not think that means what you think it means.

@Soubresaut And that’s okay with me. I don’t need to lie to randoms.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/03/floyd-protests-tear-gas-used-clear-park-trumps-walk/3128855001/

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/trump-demands-journalists-correct-stories-on-the-use-of-tear-gas-according-to-the-cdc-it-was-tear-gas/2020/06/02/bf68726c-a544-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html

https://wtop.com/dc/2020/06/some-clarity-a-day-after-reports-of-tear-gas-in-lafayette-square-but-questions-remain/

@janbb I can’t say as that link only opens to one page, not an article. I posted the ones I had marked to read follow up on, which are posted here now.

Ahh, but Trump is the second coming, the way, the truth & the life!
Hail the messiah :D

Thank you.

USA today: Feds said they used “pepper balls” and “smoke canisters,” but not technically tear gas. “With that said, Johnson-Arbor said the distinction is somewhat limited in practice. The two products cause similar symptoms. Both are chemical irritants that can causing tearing, coughing and sometimes vomiting. Those symptoms were reported from protesters who were cleared from the park on Monday.”

WUSA9: “The law enforcement that cleared the area did use a type of gas that produces similar symtpoms [sic] as tear gas, called Oleoresins Capiscum, or ‘OC’ for short.” ... And in the update dated today: “Gas canisters collected by WUSA9 crews Monday night indicate that artificial CS tear gas was indeed used by federal law enforcement agents clearing out the protesters next to Lafayette Square.”

WaPo: “McEnany was correct, but only to the extent that police did not use products labeled ‘tear gas’ and ‘rubber bullets.’ The Park Police acknowledged firing ‘pepper balls,’ a projectile munition that lofts irritant powder into the air, and ‘smoke canisters’ to scatter the crowd Monday.”

So far this looks like an argument over semantics, which is a waste of time.

WTOP is the only one which presents apparently conflicting information (too much to quote directly), which does leave some reader interpretation over who to believe, but it does not dispute the methods used to disperse the crowd. I would also note that the article includes videos, tweets, and statements from a WTOP reporter who said “from what they could see, the demonstration had been peaceful before the police initiated the move just before 7 p.m.”

So, given you provide 3 sources that uphold the story as has been understood, and 1 source that presents conflicting information without giving weight to any of the information (near the end says “Reporters are still working to verify information provided by the authorities on Tuesday”), why only take the parts that agree with the White House’s version, and call everyone else Trump-hating liars?

@Soubresaut Nope. I have more saved just didn’t have time to filter then post.

I just gave a first hand account from a medic at the church here yesterday, for God’s sake, saying innocents were gassed, etc…

Stop yanking my chain, already. I’ve voted both parties and grew up with activists, some not so nice ones and very liberal. Half my family vote Dem and will die doing so. Just because I don’t blindly hate whomever is in office, doesn’t make me a Trumper. Conservative leaning, gay loving, Christian naturalist. Label as you must, matters not to me.

Jesus was not protected by the First Amendment.
On the other hand Jesus did not burn, loot or kill.

Or ever have a job, serve in the military, preach against abortion, sport a flag pin, claim to be a patriot or own a gun.

I thought he was a carpenter

Yes. And if there were a stitch of evidence that he ever touched a single tool it would be worshiped and revered more than money!

I would say the covered the important things about Jesus, and woodworking wasn’t it @stanleybmanly .

Nobody loves abortion @KNOWITALL. That was a stupid thing to say. Also, all of your sources say the same thing….“The White House disputes the fact that tear gas was used.”

@Dutchess Watch your mouth and I’ll happily reciprocate. Next.

OK. It was a REALLY stupid thing to say. As stupid as someone saying “All republicans love racism.”

@Dutchess_III Like you saying conservatives cant post links which is REALLY a lie? Check yourself.

What? That sentence didn’t make any sense.

@Dutchess_III ffs

Your post above “Why do do conservatives have such an allergy to providing their sources?”

I ALWAYS provide sources and ask others (Dems) for sources, which are often not provided.

Many conservatives here post sources. I know one that never does, but that’s on him.

Oh. And did I mention the proclivity conservatives have of changing the subject the instant they feel cornered?

Donald row the boat ashore…

@Dutchess_III Who you cornering? You’re like four foot tall….lol

You were cornered. You really couldn’t defend your dumb “Democrats love abortion” comment so you changed the subject.
And step 3 for conservatives is to start screaming and yelling.

@Dutchess_III Yep, I’m so terribly upset I can barely restrain myself from using all caps or exclamation points. (eyeroll)
I don’t know how you’ll mentally handle another four years, I truly don’t.

And you moved to step 3. So predictable.

Well, I would have to say I could look at this from a couple different angles. I could look at it as Jesus was against violence and preached about loving your enemies as yourself. So he wouldn’t have been supporting a group that was throwing rocks and bottles.
I could look at it from the aspect, as @KNOWITALL stated, that Jesus believed in supporting the government. It wasn’t man’s laws that he was concerned with, it was God’s.
I could look at it from the aspect that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again from the grave 3 days later. He eventually was taken into heaven with the prediction that he would come back to claim his kingdom. But that would mean we would have already had the Rapture and have been through the 7 years of the Tribulation which I really don’t believe. So Jesus couldn’t have been in that crowd.

I find it really hard to believe Jesus supported Hitler.
This is said as a Christian who doesn’t blindly believe everything written and interpreted by mortal men who may have had an agenda when re writing the Bible.

^^^Yep. Much of the canonized Bible was structured and interpreted to support the supremacy of the state and the “divine right of kings”.

@Darth_Algar And still is apparently?

Well…yes. I mean, it hasn’t changed in 2000 years. It still preaches about paying taxes and submitting to the government. Of course, neither Jesus, nor the apostles, actually wrote the Bible.