How do you think the police should be reformed?

Something has to be done about police unions. I don’t know what. They deserve representation for compensation and working conditions, but they act as gangs that shelter criminals and holds cities hostage if they are asked to act lawfully.

Chicago taxpayers paid $113 million in 2018 alone compensating victims of police misconduct. Maybe those settlements should be paid from union funds. As it stands now, the unions will fight to protect the pensions of cops convicted of crimes all the way up to murder.

On the positive side, training should be massively funded and focused on keeping the peace and de-escalation. Maybe a national police academy dedicated to that could be created..

As we can see today, police who treat the citizens as the enemy, and arrive with the goal of fighting are the main cause of trouble in many incidents.

My suggestion is that it takes awhile for people to appreciate that the odds are always that they are being watched. If I were a cop, a sign or banner reminding me of that would be affixed to every surface I could manage. The idea of weeding out those cops prone towards abusing their power brings us to the issue of why anyone would don the responsibility of policeman to begin with.

A friend who was the former chief of police where I’m at used to say they needed annual psychological exams.
Whether it was a tongue in cheek statement or if he was serious, I don’t know.

They do it up here, the police have to answer to an independent body that investigates any wrong doings of the Police, Cops investigating cops makes little or no sense.

@Demosthenes: “I’ve been hearing a lot lot of condemnation of the police lately, but not a lot of suggestions for solutions.”

I first just want to point out that this is ok. It’s common for people to dismiss legitimate grievances if they don’t feel that they’ve heard sufficient expression of desired change. It’s ok – and good – to be against an injustice, even when you don’t have a clear solution. It in no way undermines the legitimacy of the critique.

That said, I’m not of the opinion that there is a clear concensus on what should be done. But there are definitely ideas that I find to be better than others. For starters, disarm the police. There is something about carrying a gun that creates a power dynamic between the police and the community they are supposedly serving that is unhealthy. Not only does it foster conditions where cops may shoot and kill people – it also encourages certain type of people to become cops.

Second, massively de-fund the police. No matter what funding difficulty we have (teacher, PPE for nurses, food, housing, healthcare, etc) we never have any issue funding police forces. Stop funding them and massively cut back on the number of police officers.

Third, completely de-militarize the police. When you dress as an invading army, you are likely to act like one. No more military vehicles and hardware.

And of course it would be nice if we shifted responsibility away from police forces to other “forces” or organizations. What if wellness checks were done by people other than police? What about domestic disputes? What if we approached the treatment of societal ills in a more focused and trained way, rather than always sending the guy with the gun and a tendency to kill people?

I’m just brainstorming here, and I don’t have the answers. But any reform that doesn’t disarm, defund, and demilitarize the police is likely to result in what it always does. Nothing. We’ll be having this discussion 10 years from now.

Of course, the whole issue of racial injustice and police violence is – and has always been – marinating in a whole host of other problems that have never been addressed. Any approach that ignores these will likely be unsuccessful as well. We’ve never dealt with the legacy of slavery and systemic racism up to the present. It’s well past time to discuss addressing the material effects of racism. And yes, this means that we look at economic injustice. Of course, this means taking a hard look at whole economic system.

Haven’t read any posts above.

It’s expensive I assume and also maybe already being done but….what about regular psychological evaluation starting at the academy?

I’m also guessing police officers who closely work together would have the strong tendency to protect each other. Even the bad apples. No idea how that can be addressed.

Redacted

A friend and former member posted this on fb. I think it’s a good plan:

1. Body cams for all police. (Turning them off should be considered destruction of evidence)
Body cams are public record.
2. Illegal to kill any unarmed person unless out numbered.
3. On going psyche evaluations, quarterly. Conducted by an independent, outside identity.
4. Mandatory per week hourly cap.
5. Traumatic incidents will require leave and psyche evaluation until released and cleared for work by an independent, outside identity.
6. Required 2 or 4 year degree in Law or Constitution study.
7. Bright uniforms & bright vehicles. The police are to help and should easily be identified.
8. Three strikes & you’re out. No pension, no severance, no benefits.
9. Sensitivity training and mental illness training, yearly exam evaluation. Pay raises are based on testing scores.
10. Discriminatory actions to held as a mandatory three strike rule.
11. Inadequate training deployment will pose strikes against the department. Strikes are public record.

@Jonsblond Great list. I would add one thing to it. Stop the buying of surplus military equipment by the police force and reduce the current gear.

The Mayor of LA just announced he is reducing the budget of that city’s force by a million to a million and a half and redirecting those funds to improving poor neighborhoods. Source

@Jonsblond A few questions/ addons/ agreements

1) I agree with this, but body cams are a huge hassle and police departments would need more funding for this. Super small town police agencies wouldn’t be able to afford this. Body cams are public record as far as I know in places where they have them (Milwaukee PD for example). They also need to find the best way to place it so that everything can be see. If a camera is on the chest, but the officer is looking somewhere else (like to the left) things won’t be seen. Also, they can be open to public records but any news service that covers it shouldn’t be allowed to alter it by cutting things out or slowing it down. Police shootings happen so fast and when you slow down a 10second situation to a 30 second clip, it gets to be stupid. Nothing happens that slow IRL.

2) Unarmed doesn’t equal not a threat, so it needs to be a case by case basis but over all I agree. The gun shouldn’t be the first thing used unless absolutely necessary, and they are trained to deescalate first. But, tasers can kill too so it isn’t always the gun. Also, not every department/ officer has a taser or is trained to use one. Police officers need to be able to prove that there was a danger of physical injury when they use any kind of force. The force should be nothing more than what is necessary (so no excessive force)

3) Yes

4) Not sure what this means?

5) yes. more emphasis needs to be placed on mental health in any public safety career, and it is starting to happen

6) Wisconsin has a 2year degree minimum as a requirement. But it can be in anything. I think it would be a good idea, although most of it is covered in the police academy as far as I know. Also, a criminal justice degree would be good too as it covers law and constitution study quite a bit (at least my school does, I’m a CJ major)

7) I’d have to think about this a bit more. I guess it makes sense?

8) Three strikes for serious complaints or what?

9) yes yes yes. I don’t know about the pay raises but yes to training on mental illnesses. I’d extend this and say they need a universal training on how to deal with crime victims too. Some officers are specialized but that’s in larger departments and the way smaller departments deal with things can vary. It should all be consistent.

10) So cases where it’s proven the officer discriminated against someone is on a three strike basis as well? As long as it can be proven that it was discrimination.

11) Yeah.

I always thought the military equipment was for SWAT, not everyday officers not on the tactical teams. Tactical teams need that equipment for the situations they go in. @janbb

I would like to see more LEOs, holding their counterparts, more accountable to the laws they are supposed to be upholding….

@MrGrimm888 it’s like we see in movies the force is a brother hood and they all each others back, so if Bob fucks up we will all cover for him so he doesn’t get in shit, I say that because that is the messege joe blow public is getting but please telll us we are wrong.

This Washington Post editorial this week is about police reform.

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A FEW HOURS after President Trump took the oath of office in 2017, the White House issued a statement vowing to reverse what it called a “dangerous anti-police atmosphere in America,” a promise consistent with his so-called law-and-order campaign stances: endorsing the death sentence for those who kill officers; defending police accused of misconduct in officer-involved shootings; favoring tough tactics such as “stop-and-frisk.”

Many law enforcement agencies and officers cheered, including the head of the police union in Minneapolis, Lt. Bob Kroll, who, appearing at a rally with Mr. Trump last fall, lauded a president who “put the handcuffs on the criminals instead of us.”

Mr. Kroll, who has warned of a rush to judgment against the officer who kneeled for more than eight minutes on George Floyd’s neck, does not represent all police. But he does give voice to a considerable number who deeply resented President Barack Obama’s efforts to nudge the nation’s 18,000 police departments toward modest reforms that, had they taken root more broadly, might have strengthened the bonds officers need to serve their communities — and that citizens need to feel safe.

Those Obama-era reforms have been systematically rolled back by the Trump administration, which in the process has signaled that it will not concern itself too greatly if police push to, and beyond, the limits.

When Mr. Trump on Monday demanded that governors “dominate” protesters and rioters, it was in line with the “rough” tactics he admires and his recommendation that officers should not be “too nice” when arresting suspects.

By contrast, a task force appointed by Mr. Obama urged that police assume roles not as “warriors” but as “guardians.” In that spirit, his administration restricted supplies of surplus military equipment to police forces and, through the courts, pursued consent decrees requiring broad reforms for departments where abuses had been systematic.

Despite those initiatives, Mr. Obama was only beginning to advance his policing task force’s recommendations, which included stricter rules against racial profiling; federal policies to encourage more diverse police hiring; independent investigations and prosecutions for officer-involved deaths; and more published information from departments detailing detentions, arrests and crimes, broken down by demographics.

To Mr. Trump, those recommendations, and Mr. Obama’s actual policies, amounted to a “war on police.” His administration has reinstated the supply of military equipment to police and distanced itself from consent decrees.

The Trump White House has also turned a blind eye to the systemic racism most African Americans believe, and studies confirm, they confront in dealing with police; according to Robert C. O’Brien, Mr. Trump’s national security adviser, it does not even exist.

Mr. Trump’s dog whistles and bullhorn blasts help ensure that police will remain unaccountable — rarely indicted when they kill unarmed people; frequently cleared when they are disciplined; often reinstated when they are fired for misconduct.

They suggest there will be no change in racial profiling or unjustified officer-involved killings.

Having torn up his predecessor’s blueprint, Mr. Trump now has nothing to offer — no prescriptions, no healing and no vision beyond a status quo many Americans abhor. In reality, his slogans and impulses signal a disrespect for law, and path away from order.

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^Well… As a former(sometimes active LEO,) it’s hard to explain….

The “brotherhood,” is born in trust… (I’m not saying that I agree with a mutual agreement, that brutality, is OK.)

However.
In certain situations, a LEO, has to do things that would not make sense to a civilian….
I do not condone, such things…

It really depends on the circumstances….

You/we, are not wrong.

I have literally cried, about the Floyd incident… I cannot overstate this….
And I don’t care, who thinks that I should not….

If I was a participant in that specific scenario, I would have tried to stop the officer, who went overboard.
I have been in similar situations, in which I did… I stopped others, from overacting…. AND. Held those officers accountable….

In the case of Mr. Floyd, and many others, I think the other LEOs, should have attempted to stop the out of order officer…

I feel that the real failure, was that the accompanying officers, did nothing to help.

I will gladly expound my position, if required.

My position, is simple.

The other officers, should have stopped the overuse, of force…

They should watch reruns of Kojak & carry lollipops instead of guns.
Who loves ya baby!

I haven’t read the answers above.

Is the knee on the neck even allowed?

I would say as soon as a suspect is handcuffed and the officer has control, the suspect should be able to be relatively comfortable. That might be sitting in a police car or wherever. There was no reason to have George Floyd on the ground at all! Hell, there was no reason to arrest him! Over a counterfeit bill? Do you know how many counterfeit bills we had when I worked at Bloomingdale’s? Companies usually just ask for another form of payment. If the police come they would question the person, probably not arrest them. It’s crazy.

I’m thinking a lot of reasonable rules already exist and these cops didn’t give a shit. Most policemen I know would never have done what these cops did.

The way to prevent it is to prosecute and convict these men, and for the police to be on notice they cannot be abusive. They tortured that man. Torture. He could not breath, he couldn’t move, do you know what that feels like? He knew he was struggling to live.

I understand that police might use aggressive maneuvers with a suspect who is not cooperating, but once the suspect is under control that’s it, he gets to be, as I said above, made as comfortable as possible. Cops have gotten away with killing people under the guise of they are in scary situations themselves, and need to be able to protect themselves, but we see incident after incident of the policemen being in no danger and using excessive force.

We need to remember that some policemen go into that line of work because they truly want to help their community and feel a calling. Some people in that line of work like to have guns, to drive fast, control others, and have all sorts of horrible traits. Police departments need to have their antennas up. Do they do any sort of psych evaluation during the application process?

Thanks for the answers. I agree with many of the suggestions here, especially the de-militarization of the police. I don’t support de-funding (something I’ve been hearing calls for from friends on social media) because it seems to me that less money for police departments means fewer cops and thus more overworked cops, which will only make everything worse. Additionally, if the pay isn’t good enough, the pool of applicants will be worse and we’ll be seeing more Derek Chauvins. I also support harsher penalties for cops fired for use-of-force reasons. Right now these cops are treated the way pedophile priests have been treated, moved to another location with their past obscured. That helps no one.

@JLeslie I have not heard one officer say that the knee on the neck was acceptable. They all have said that is NOT apart of their training.

Question: What kind of equipment should member of LE who are on a tactical team have? When they are going into a house/building that is high risk because they don’t know if/what kind of weapons that person has? Who else is having this military type equipment on the police force? Why is it bad for them to have equipment that allow them to be safe in situations where they don’t know 100% what to expect?

Would you feel safe walking into a house of someone who may have guns without any of that gear? You don’t know what kind of weapons they have so why would you want just a handgun?

That wasn’t all directed at you @JLeslie sorry for not clarifying that

I would like someone to answer though. Would you feel safe walking into a situation where you could easily be killed in because you don’t have what is needed to defend yourself? Banning law enforcement tactical teams from having those weapons/gear won’t ban it from the criminals on the streets who try to use them against cops when confronted.

It’s complicated but important to note that I suspect most are walking around on the job with untreated PSTD. They deal with the scum of the earth all day and I would think that this alone is going to make them cynical and a little racist. The racist part has to do with the transient, systemic racism that exists in large urban housing developments, a larger topic worthy of a separate discussion. I had the “pleasure” of serving on the grand jury for a large city and 95% of all the crime was from one area of town around the public housing developments. Horrible things that never, ever made it to the news. It was just a brief glimpse into what the local LEO’s deal with every single day. There is no way in hell they’re not a little f’ed in the head because of it.

The other side of the coin is that it’s a job that attracts certain personality types that are unworthy of wearing the badge yet they don’t generally get filtered out. It’s a shit job with shit pay and high levels of stress. Unless you know an LEO personally you simply can’t trust them.

There are many, many stand up people who do this thankless job well and they serve the public more than they should. They get up and deal with our shit day after day. I know personally perhaps five or six LEO’s and all show some obvious PSTD signs. A couple have psychological issues that I would have liked to have seen disqualify them, the others are great people.

Yes reform is needed. It needs to be a prestigious, high-paying job with strict entry requirements as far as education, training and screening. Too many jackasses are out there in uniform. There needs to be much more in the way of resources for them to be able to psychologically deal with their work. Their training treats the public as an adversary that is a constant danger to them. When unarmed people get pulled over for speeding and end up getting shot by police or what happened to Mr. Floyd happens somewhat regularly we have serious issues with our policing system.

@SergeantQueen I’m fine with cops being prepared to protect themselves in situations that they don’t know what they are walking into.

I’m even ok with them using physical force when someone is considered violent and resisting arrest. But, once subdued, then that’s it. The police are there to capture the person, not punish them.

George Floyd was just passing a counterfeit bill, and might not have even known he had done it. He wasn’t dangerous to anyone, and no reason to think he was.

@JLeslie agreed. Once he was in handcuffs that should have been the end of it.

There plenty of ways to reform police.
But they are useless without reforming paternalistic and insulting government policies that assume Black voters need the “gift” of lowered expectations.
This attitude eventually affects the thinking, one way or another, with everybody who deals with that constituency.

wrong post wrong place

He never should have been arrested in my opinion, just to clarify that, but yeah, if they were going to arrest him they certainly didn’t need to do anything but cuff him and put him in the police car. Just the arrest is racist in my opinion.

I just saw that two of the four officers were basically on their first day of the job and both questioned in one form or another what was happening. I also read that the main guy who put his knee on Floyd’s neck had close to 20 official public complaints on record. Sounds like he was showing off to the new recruits. What an asshole. I kind of feel sorry for the two new officers who got wrapped up in this.

@ARE_you_kidding_me This reminds me of priests being moving around. The people in charge are culpable for letting this cop continue in his career.

@JLeslie ”The people in charge are culpable for letting this cop continue in his career.“

Do you include Klobouchar in that group?

@SergeantQueen ”Would you feel safe walking into a situation where you could easily be killed in because you don’t have what is needed to defend yourself?”

A big part of the problem is no-knock warrants for drug busts. They should use surveillance and pick the dude up when he’s filling up at the gas pump or something. SWAT should only be used for violent situations.

Also, Police don’t have the luxury of feeling safe. Neither do firefighters, rescue divers, search-and-rescue pilots and many other dangerous professions. The last person I want with a badge and a gun is a coward who is running around town scared of everything, with an itchy trigger finger, willing to execute people instead of take the 0.001% chance that the phone in the suspect’s hand is a gun.

I think one of the biggest problems is how officers cover for each other’s wrongdoings. Teamwork is very important, but it can also result in good people participating in some horrible things due to the psychological pressures of group dynamics.

Great answer @gorillapaws ! TOTALLY AGREE!

@gorillapaws I think Klobuchar has a serious problem now. I don’t see how she can be chosen as VP. She already had some problems with the black community, but now it’s huge. I would need more information for me to say whether I hold Klobuchar culpable, but it definitely should be looked at, I want to know the other cases nd what actually came before her.

I am curious to know if Minneapolis cops are always in pairs.

Previously, I thought Klobuchar would be good for the Midwest vote but now I think black Americans will come out in large numbers no matter what in the Midwest and secure some of the swing states.

I just received and text and phone call to order my mail in ballot, the Democrats are making calls in Florida.

What did Klobouchar do?

Also, Police don’t have the luxury of feeling safe But yet all those professions you listed still do everything they can to keep themselves safe, by wearing the proper equipment or by going into situations expecting the worse (which includes utilizing all the “military equipment” all you are so worried about). It’s still dangerous to go into those situations regardless, but taking the proper steps to minimize risk is still a good idea.I would be more than happy to see you walk into those situations without the proper equipment.

What kind of equipment should they have then? Since military equipment is out of the question now apparently. What should the police do when they are going into high risk situations not knowing what to expect? What would you personally want to have on you, to defend yourself?

Firefighters don’t go in to start fires. Compare to the police attacking peaceful protests to start street fights.

What kind of equipment should they have then?

Here’s what happens when the police show up in regular uniforms instead of battle gear:

Camden protesters, police applauded for ‘transformational moment’
“The peaceful demonstrations held in Camden, where Police Chief Joseph Wysocki marched in solidarity with residents demanding justice following the death of George Floyd, drew the praise of New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy…”

”...Camden’s protests were among of several that saw protesters and law enforcement join together. Residents and police officers held signs and called for change. Wysocki helped carry a banner reading “Standing in Solidarity” while a police captain led a Camden Strong chant.”

^^^ And that’s how it should be.

Firefighters, rescue workers, first responders and the like should not be compared to the police. They are not in the same position of authority and wield no power. They don’t carry guns, can’t make arrests and there is no power trip for them. The motivations to do those jobs exclude those needing an ego boost other than they can feel good about serving the community.

I can agree about the police and their protection of each other. Case in point: what just happened in Buffalo. Two officers were suspended for pushing an elderly man to the ground where he began to bleed and 57 other officers, nearly the entire emergency response team, resigned in protest of the suspension. The “brotherhood” seems to go a bit far sometimes.

There will be no effective police force if that “brotherhood” thing does not in fact take priority, regardless of any stated policy or mandate to the contrary.

@Dutchess_III: To answer your question “What did Klobuchar do” it’s what she did not do. The killer cop Derrick Chauvin had 18 disciplinary issues on his record, none of which she chose to prosecute him for. She was the District Attorney at the time of his disciplinary issues (or some of them).

Thanks.