Why is there a double standard around protests and COVID-19?

On the contrary, I’ve seen just as much criticism, but it is buried in the rhetoric.

Dear lord.

Are you comparing people gathering without masks to demand their right to bad haircuts and endless breadsticks at Olive Garden to a population revolting against a police state while wearing masks?

Please elaborate.

@hmmmmmm Yes, I am comparing them. Seems to me that the reason behind the protest has no bearing on whether COVID-19 is spread. (And I’ve seen mixed mask-usage in both groups).

I need you to elaborate, because it’s unclear how you can compare them – especially with the details I have already provided. Additionally, the pushback protesters are getting re: C19 has been huge, so the premise of your question is a bit confusing.

@hmmmmmm I’m not seeing the same kind of pushback from governors and the news media that I saw during the earlier anti-lockdown protests. I’m not seeing the same appeals to “not getting grandma sick” that I saw back then. Most of the pushback from this camp I’ve seen has been “I don’t support looting, but the protests are fine”. There’s little talk about COVID-19.

Again, both involve large groups of people gathering, not all of whom are wearing masks or staying six feet apart. The reason they’re protesting is completely irrelevant to whether or not the disease is spread. I’m not arguing about which protest is more valid.

Demonstrating against injustice and murder on the streets is in fact more worthwhile than demonstrating specifically to make the epidemic worse and prolong the hardship on all of us.

@Demosthenes: “I’m not seeing the same kind of pushback from governors and the news media that I saw during the earlier anti-lockdown protests. I’m not seeing the same appeals to “not getting grandma sick” that I saw back then.”

a) There is pushback on every aspect of these protests, including C19.
b) The people protesting in the streets today are fighting to save lives. If there was any other way – like simply asking cops in a Zoom call if they could kindly stop killing and beating and oppressing people – then this would be the preferred method.
c) The events I have been to have been explicit about keeping distance. Organizers – some of whom I know – have made it clear in planning and during the events to keep 6-ft distance. I’m not sure how it’s been with the events you have been to.
d) Everyone is wearing a mask during the protests. In some cases, protesters have handed out masks to cops.
e) When people last month demanded the right to go eat at Applebees, most of them were not wearing masks, and they were intentionally not social distancing because that was the point. The means and the goal were the same.

I understand that “hypocrisy” is the end-all in conservative circles, and there are some here (not saying you) who only speak of this. The problem with falling into the hypocrisy trap is that you can sometimes forget the fact that you’re scrapping all first principles and playing with a model of the world that is amoral and relative. In this case, you’re missing the fact that one group is calling for more death, and in the process is exhibiting intentional behavior that will surely result in this death. And on the other “side’ are people fighting to stop death, and in the process are regretfully in some scenarios not ideally physically-distanced. There is such a great difference here that to compare them reveals a bit more about yourself than you realized.

Note: I am quite sympathetic to those who want to open the economy. Why? Because we have an immoral economic system that is ill-prepared to handle something like a pandemic. But running around with no mask and demanding a haircut is quite different than organizing and fighting for an economic revolution – or even demanding that people be reimbursed for doing their duty and staying home.

I worry (terrified, actually) about protests, no matter how just the cause is. California is starting to open up and we are already seeing an uptick of admissions to local hospitals. As a front line worker in the ICU I have daily exposure when I am on call, and I personally am in a higher risk group for death.

As @hmmmmmm says, people are trying to keep their distance and wear masks, but it’s not perfect. The virus doesn’t care. The lock down and social distancing really worked here in the Bay Area, but now that things are opening up we are already seeing an uptick of cases.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/protests-carry-risk-even-when-theyre-justified/612652/

The virus doesn’t care who you are or what you believe, but surely that means the relevant question is “what is worth the risk?” Those who think haircuts and reopening businesses as soon as possible aren’t worth the risk are critical of those who do. Those who think that opposing murder and seeking racial justice aren’t worth the risk are critical of those who do. And of course, there are some other factors involved (such as those seeking haircuts and reopenings actively not taking precautions for the most part, versus those seeking racial justice mostly doing their best to take precautions where they can). So it’s not a double standard so much as a question of where the line between reasonable and unreasonable risk lies. And on this, like all things, people disagree.

@hmmmmmm “Are you comparing people gathering without masks to demand their right to bad haircuts and endless breadsticks at Olive Garden to a population revolting against a police state while wearing masks?” No, he was comparing people that needed to get back to work, back to some sense of normalcy, that were getting desperate to people that want to protest police violence. I guess it is all in what you want to see, eh?

@Call_Me_Jay Soooo….rioting, looting, killing cops, beating people…that is a worth while cause but wanting to get back to normal is not?

@Demosthenes This is a great question. I think there is more that needs to be addressed as well. There were several elected officials that had strict rules about who could gather, where they could gather, and in what size groups. These were all Constitutional overreaches in the name of public welfare. When it came to protests, they suddenly changed everything to accommodate the protesters. Why? Was the public less at risk from Covid-19 if you are protesting than if you are going to work?

@Caravanfan I am in the Bay Area as well and have noticed the slight uptick since things have begun opening up. And protests can’t be helping. That is why I asked this question.

@hmmmmmm It’s true that I point out hypocrisy often. It’s also true that some use hypocrisy as a way to ignore all context and avoid a more nuanced evaluation of two often very different situations. I’m the first to roll my eyes when someone cries “straight pride!” Others will tell me it’s hypocritical to do so. I do not believe it is and can make my case by arguing the context, history, and intent behind LGBT pride. That said, @Irukandji has it right that what I’m speaking of is what is worth the risk? If we accept that large gatherings are more likely to spread the disease, what is worth that additional spread? You’re saying it is worth the risk because this cause is so important. I see that as a bit dubious because surely every protester (no matter the cause they’re marching for) believes their cause is worth the risks they’re taking by protesting.

Perhaps the virus that causes Covid only affects you based on your intentions.

So the question is, what should my intentions be to make me less susceptible.

A better question:

Why is there a double standard of unmasked but heavily armed white people overtaking state capitol buildings not interrupted by law enforcement,and supported by the White House but peaceful protesters in a public park are teargassed and moved out by National Guard troops.?

@zenvelo It’s a different question, unrelated to COVID. This question was about COVID

@zenvelo Yes, that is another double standard that bothers me and I pointed that one out as well (not on Fluther from what I remember, but I think it came up in a few other questions). Whether it’s a “better question” is up for debate. ;)

@Demosthenes The push back you’re getting about “hypocrisy” is that it’s not hypocrisy (nor is it a double standard). As I said, and as you agreed, it’s a disagreement about what is worth the risk. Those two things are not the same, and the constant attempts to conflate them are counterproductive.

(And yes, everyone thinks their own cause is worth the risk. But the disagreement isn’t about whether people believe what they are doing is worth the risk. It’s about whether what they are doing is actually worth the risk.)

@Irukandji Was that the problem, though? Were people really saying “these anti-government protesters should go home. Now, if they had a better cause, the risk to society would be acceptable.” It seems to me that most of the language was against all protest at the time. The right-wing anti-government protests just happened to be the ones occurring then.

People abbreviate their stances all the time. They’re also allowed to add nuance to their views based on new developments.

@Demosthenes: “It seems to me that most of the language was against all protest at the time.”

How could you possibly assume this?

@josie: “Perhaps the virus that causes Covid only affects you based on your intentions.

So the question is, what should my intentions be to make me less susceptible.”

Remember, since @Demosthenes’ premise that people don’t seem to care about C19 and BLM protests is demonstrably false, your response is pure strawman.

@Caravanfan It is the same question, just from a different angle.

I appreciate your concern, that is why I observed the rally in my town from a block away (I am in a high risk group). But at some point personal safety is sacrificed for fighting injustice.

@Demosthenes: “That said, @Irukandji has it right that what I’m speaking of is what is worth the risk? If we accept that large gatherings are more likely to spread the disease, what is worth that additional spread? You’re saying it is worth the risk because this cause is so important.”

Is it worth the risk to go out with masks on and protest police murder? Is it worth the risk for people to hit the streets and get beat, shot, and teargassed by the state? Absolutely. But this isn’t what you originally asked.

@Demosthenes: ” I see that as a bit dubious because surely every protester (no matter the cause they’re marching for) believes their cause is worth the risks they’re taking by protesting.”

Again, you are arguing against any kind of principle or objectivity here. Because people may have different values, you’re arguing that none of them are better than any others. If this is the game you’re playing, go sit down. You just destroyed your own argument by making this case.

So what is it? Are we talking about “hypocrisy/double-standards”, or are we looking at the principles involved and the methods employed.

And more importantly, what exactly is your motivation here? If you feel that there is truly some kind of deep hypocrisy (there isn’t), you also likely feel that there is some kind of injustice occurring related to this hypocrisy (there isn’t). If you didn’t feel this injustice, you’d likely have not been motivated to ask this question. Something without consequence is not often a motivator. If you feel that this “double-standard” (that doesn’t exist) has negative consequences, spit it out.

I didn’t realize “conservatives” who went out to protest the lockdown were criticized for going out and endangering others. I thought they were criticized not for going out per se but for buying the conspiracy theory by trump that Covid-19 is not as serious as it seemed and that it’s another ploy by the Dems to defeat him.

Of course COVID-19 still matters. Of course people are still worried about it.

I agree with what a lot of others above have said, and who said it better than I would have.

I just also want to add that it is not hypocritical to engage with issues that are being protested. Criticizing the goals of protestors who were wanting to buck social distancing guidelines in favor of personal convenience is not the same thing as criticizing the act of protest itself. Nor is arguing against those goals. Nor is arguing for social distancing practices to be maintained.

Hypocrisy is a flaw endemic in people.
To some degree, we’re all full of shit…can you smell what I’m cooking?

It’s not about Republicans and Democrats. People want to get back to where they were before COVID-19. People is stupid and stupid is as stupid does.

@hmmmmmm
You are clearly angry.
It’s not healthy, but that is your choice.
Having said that…
Are you comfortable telling the Collective the source of your anger?

Or is it private?

Rest assured, nobody is begging to know your secrets.

Give it some thought

@josie: “You are clearly angry.”

You’re not? Why not?

@josie: “It’s not healthy, but that is your choice.”

Healthy?

@josie: “Having said that…
Are you comfortable telling the Collective the source of your anger?

Or is it private?

Rest assured, nobody is begging to know your secrets.

Give it some thought”

Anyone who isn’t angry right now has some fucking explaining to do. Give that some thought.

I have been consistent in stating people protesting should do their best to distance, to wear masks, and to be non-violent. I think some people and some media outlets have been hypocrites regarding how they view and report the protests. Finally, finally, a few days ago outlets like MSNBC have started to remind people to wear masks and distance when possible. The first week of Floyd protesting they just talked about how courageous it was in light of COVID19—sound familiar? Sounds a lot like Republicans I know walking around saying they aren’t afraid of COVID and to be brave. Ugh. How about we all be responsible.

I do condemn the rifles and screaming with no mask at cops during the lockdown protests. To me carrying rifles in force is a violent threat. There was no need for someone to be armed. That to me is terrorizing.

I also had something to say about breaking curfews at the George Floyd protests. Seems a lot of the protesters who were angry about the curfews “won” and some curfews were removed.

I’m equal opportunity when it comes to protesting.

@hmmmmmm
Anyone who isn’t angry right now has some fucking explaining to do. Give that some thought.
Well I thought about it.
I’m still not angry. And I just can’t fucking explain it.
What now?

@josie: “What now?”

You could try giving a shit.

@zenvelo ‘But at some point personal safety is sacrificed for fighting injustice.”

I wish I had that luxury. I do not. I run an intensive care unit and I am already down a physician. I have only 4 active critical care physicians to staff it until September (when my 5th comes back). So if one of us gets sick we’re screwed, especially if a surge happens. So we are all trying to keep ourselves as hermetically sealed as possible.

@Caravanfan Thank you for that. I wouldn’t wind up in your ICU, but I hope my ICU doctors where I live are just as obsessed as you regarding staying healthy right now. I’m all for protesting, but there are plenty of people protesting right now. We have millions of people out of work who can fill the streets.

@mazingerz88 Sure protesters are accused of endangering others. I heard it more regarding the lockdown protests.

Does anyone remember how many people were physically injured or killed during “conservative” protests?

^ No. I don’t recall how many people were physically beaten or killed by police during “conservative” protests. Maybe you could research that for us.

@hmmmmmm I can help a little. There were all those armed protests by people that were accused of being Trump supporters that were protesting the closing of society for Covid-19. There were protests in Michigan, North Carolina, and Kentucky. Funny thing…no one got killed. No fights broke out. There was no looting. There was no arson. There was no rioting. Of course the MSM hated it and tried to make them out to be some sort of radicals. But let me ask: is it more radical to turn a protest into a riot or to just protest?

@seawulf575 Why do think that is? Why are cops harming reporters, and an old man, and a young woman who did not pose any physical threat?

@JLeslie Well, gee. It could be that they are armed. OR it could be that they are just behaving themselves. I’m pretty sure there were reporters there…they weren’t harmed by the cops. There were old men there…that weren’t harmed by the cops. Not sure about young women…but the fact is, they were peaceful protests. There weren’t people targeting cops. There wasn’t looting or arson or bricks being thrown. It’s funny…when protests are peaceful, no one gets hurt. We have had protests in the nearby city pretty much every day. And they are peaceful. The cops are even then, helping to block intersections so no one gets hurt. But they aren’t rioters. They aren’t out of control. No one is trying to walk up behind cops to shoot them in the head.
Part of the problem people are having is actually deciding what is and isn’t a peaceful protest. For example, I have heard a number of people call the protests in Lafayette park (that got cleared by cops with tear gas and rubber bullets) peaceful. Yet there are a number of reports that say these same “peaceful” protesters were throwing rocks and bottles, spitting on cops, vandalizing things…basically acting like aggressive fools. Yet they are deemed to be “peaceful”. Why? Oh wait! It’s that same double standard the original question asked about. People want to make excuses for bad behavior and then wonder when things get totally loony.

There were all those armed protests by people that were accused of being Trump supporters

Feel free to show us how they are not Trump supporters. Show your work.

Thanks in advance.

@seawulf575 You have described the inherent racism in policing by noticing that the police look the other way and stand aside when heavily armed white men invade a public space, but feel threatened and shoot to kill when a black man in his backyard is seen holding his cellphone that “i thought might be a weapon”.

There have been numerous instances of the police threatening and arresting journalists that identify themselves as journalists and are doing nothing more than their job. Police have arrested reporters in the middle of live broadcasts.

The police have attacked peaceful demonstrators all over this country..

@Call_Me_Jay I think the burden of proof is on the accusers. There is really nothing that says they are all Trump supporters other than a biased media.

@zenvelo First, you should give citations for you claims. Some of these I have looked up and some I know about. So let’s open that dialogue. I found two instances of reporters being arrested. Both in Minneapolis and both during times of extreme circumstances. Those peaceful protesters you love were not what I would call peaceful at those times. There were riots, looting, arson, etc. The police in both circumstances were tasked with clearing the streets and restoring order. You know…what we want them to do…what they are paid for. In both circumstances the reporters were asked to move a couple times and didn’t. Well, let me rephrase that…in one case they didn’t and in the other the reporter moved and then moved back again a couple times. In both cases the cops were not particularly rough or angry, but they were doing their jobs. Even the reporter said there was no animosity between them and the cops, that they had been asked to move and hadn’t but at the end started asking where they wanted the crew to go. One of the cops responded “Look, I dunno man. I’m just following orders.” So it wasn’t because they were reporters, it wasn’t that the cops were being thugs, it was that they were doing their jobs and didn’t have time or even the latitude to argue. And one could even put forth the opinion that they should not have to argue with every single person they ask to move when they are clearing the streets. I’m willing to bet that if you look at all those cases of the cops “attacking” “peaceful demonstrators” you would find similar circumstances…the cops are asked to clear the streets and give plenty of warning before taking action. And also let’s be honest…“attacking” probably involves tear gas or some other non-lethal actions designed to deter the demonstrators from being belligerent. So let’s put this all in context instead of just making sensationalist claims.

@zenvelo And again, let’s put things in perspective about racism. It isn’t racism to talk about how one protest is violent and the other isn’t and that the cops react differently to those two circumstances. Sorry, the race card doesn’t play here. Does that mean racism doesn’t exist? No, it means not everything is racism. It isn’t just blacks that are shot by police every year. In fact, there are more white people shot by police every year than just about every other minority group combined. source So how is that racism?
Again, that isn’t saying that some cops don’t look at blacks with more suspicion, especially in some neighborhoods. But the broad brush “all cops” view and “everything is racist” view is trash. It is nothing more than hatred and manipulation. Are there changes that need to be made in how police work? Absolutely. And it is sad that it takes a murder by a cop to bring that out. But I have known many cops in my time and have thought most of them were decent folks that critique poor performance by other cops, especially the ones that make the headlines!

@seawulf575 So here the police watch from up the street as a white man drives a car into protesters and then shoots a protester. The same police were shooting rubber bullets and tear gas at a peacfeul protest. https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000007179317/protest-seattle-car.html

And reporters are arrested in places other than Minneapolis https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/09/george-floyd-protests-usa-today-network-reporter-arrested-delaware/5331163002/

But why was a reporter arrested in Minneapolis anyway? He was not doing anything except reporting while black. Other reporters were allowed to continue. And actually, reporters should not need police permission in most instances to conduct constitutionally protected jobs.

You are misreading the statistics on cop killings by race. Yes more white people are shot by police, but black people are disproportionately killed by cops. And cops don’t kill white people “by mistake” like Breonna Taylor, or for a minor offense like George Floyd, or for selling single cigarettes.

“...attacking” probably involves tear gas or some other non-lethal actions” except tear gas is prohibited for use in war, and even Forbe magazine recognizes rubber bullets as deadly.

And yes, some cops will decry the bad actions of other cops, but not in public, and the police unions have a fit if you criticize a policeman for excessive force.

@seawulf575 Do you feel there is systemic racism in our society?

@zenvelo Your first link shows a guy that was in his car and people were stopping him. He got out and waved a gun around but it does not show him shooting anyone. It says he was brandishing a weapon. And it says at the end that one person was shot, but it doesn’t say he shot that person. And it is interesting you chose a scene from Seattle. Let’s talk about that. The “peaceful protesters” have taken over 6 city blocks. They have stormed city hall. They have blockaded streets and are using armed protesters to keep people from entering the blockade. They aren’t letting anyone in…no city officials, no reporters…no one. And the Mayor and the Governor are ordering the police to stand down. So now you are complaining that the police aren’t doing anything? Which way do you want it? Do you want police to do their job or not? According to you, they are horrible for taking action to break up protests but they are also horrible when they don’t.
As for white people not getting killed by mistake, I think you need to get out more. Your racism is showing. I suggest you look at Richard Black Jr. or Daniel Kevin Harris or Robert Ethan Saylor or Daniel Shaver or Keith Vidal. And let’s not forget Justine Damond. As I remember, that was a black cop (Somali) that shot an unarmed woman in her pajamas when she came out to apprise them of the situation she called 911 about. And what was the reaction to that? There was outrage that he was being prosecuted. The media called it racist. Sound familiar? I could go on, but I think 6 examples are enough to show you are out to lunch.
And did you really just speak out about a union? Better watch it…they’ll take your membership card to the libby club away!

@Caravanfan I suspect there is some, but not nearly as much as is touted. Everything that happens is attributed to racism and that’s just bullshit. But those claims do a great job of dividing our society, doesn’t it?

@seawulf575 When do you think racism ceased to be an issue in our society?

. They have blockaded streets and are using armed protesters to keep people from entering the blockade. They aren’t letting anyone in…no city officials, no reporters…no one.

Spreading dumb lies doesn’t reflect well on you. You need better sources of info.

Here’s a link with a photo of the Seattle police chief having a friendly chat with activists in the ‘Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone’[CHAZ]’ .

Here are KOMO News reporters broadcasting from the CHAZ.:

KING5 TV in Seattle broadcast from the CHAZ – ‘Seattle businesses helping provide supplies for Capitol Hill protestors’

@Call_Me_Jay I suggest you look at your own link. go to the first one…you know…the police chief having a friendly chat with activists. Remember the armed protesters I talked about? Yeah…go a little further down from your police chief pic and you will see a pic of exactly what I was talking about.
As for the second one, maybe you didn’t notice that the guy broadcasting wasn’t actually in the Chaz, but was just outside it. The interview with the woman was done but it was uncertain where it was filmed…inside or out.

@seawulf575 Are you ignoring my question?

@Caravanfan I didn’t see your question until this morning and didn’t have time before work to answer. As for the answer, I don’t think racism ever ceased to be an issue in our society. However, I don’t believe it has been as wide spread and innocuous as it is put forth. For example, I keep hearing about white privilege. I don’t buy that as anything other than a talking point. There are plenty of poor whites in this country, but we just ignore that in favor of the popular talking point. I have been told I have white privilege. I had a father that had a mental break down when I was 11. He couldn’t hold a job and couldn’t really function in any meaningful way. Mom ended up working 3 jobs just to keep a roof over our heads and food in our stomach. I went to college but wasn’t eligible for even school loans at the time because they deemed my mom made too much money. Meanwhile foreign born students were going to college for free. Black and hispanic students had special grants they could tap into. So I worked and put myself through college. I joined the military and got good education there as well and turned that training into a career in the civilian world. So far, where have I been privileged? I got passed over on one particular promotion because a black co-worker threatened to sue for discrimination if he didn’t get it. I had more seniority, more qualifications, and better performance reviews so he got it. I didn’t hold that against him, I held the company accountable for giving into that threat. He and I talked about it and he understood I held him no animosity and we remain friends to this day. So I guess being white didn’t help me there. I have many black friends and co-workers and none of them have ever considered me some sort of racist, yet that doesn’t stop those that want to push racism from accusing me of being one.
I believe there are racists in this country. But I don’t believe that every wrong or perceived wrong done to a black person is racism or racially based. I understand the feeling of being targeted by cops and I believe there is a certain amount of ingrained attitude in many cops. I’m not sure if they were always that way or not or if it came with the job. One thing we never talk about in this society is the black on black crimes. And not talking about them eliminates the discussion of how cops might get to where they are suspicious of black people. If they go into a neighborhood that has a high crime rate and is mainly black, they would likely be on the look-out for black people. It makes perfect sense to me. There are cases such as Henry Louis Gates that drive the narrative that cops hate and target blacks. To refresh your memory that is Obama’s friend that got arrested in his own yard. The cops were called by a concerned neighbor that thought they saw someone trying to break into the house next door (which belonged to Gates). They showed up and found him trying to break in…he had locked himself out. Once they established he was indeed the owner and he said he didn’t need help, they were going to leave. But then Mr. Gates starts in with the cries of racism. Cops targeting black people. They were trying to ignore him and go back to work and he just escalated and escalated until they finally arrested him for disorderly conduct. That wasn’t racism, it was taking care of someone that was being a tool.
So I believe that racism does exist, but I believe it is used as a weapon and an excuse far more than it actually occurs.

@seawulf575 So do you feel that the killings of black civilians by white police officers are all justified and not based on race? Do you feel that if a white civilian was in the same situation, they would have been treated the same way?

@Caravanfan I’m not getting into absolutes. I believe that some killings of black civilians by white police officers are justified. I also don’t believe race has to be a part of that discussion. Black civilians have been killed by black officers too. So given the same situations, why does race come into play? A black civilian is in a situation where they get killed by an officer of the law. There are a lot of variables that play into that. Were they acting suspiciously? Did they do something that made the police officer fearful for his life? Were the cops looking for someone that was supposedly armed? Or were the cops just assholes? I just gave @zenvelo a selection of white people that have been “mistakenly” killed by cops. So I guess that says that if a white civilian was in the same situation, they would have been treated the same way.
Now, to the point that this society is obsessed with using racism as THE excuse for everything, I suggest you go back up and read about Justine Damond. She was a white woman that was shot and killed by a black officer. And when there was an outcry about the unjustified shooting (race did not play a part in this outcry) and the officer was tried for murder, there was another outcry. It was the call of racism that they would charge him with murder because he was black. Sound familiar? So let me ask you…if the officer were white, would he have been treated the same way? I can give you a number of cases that say he would have been. So why is it racism when the officer is black?

@seawulf575 I’m just trying to understand. So you feel that some killings may be justified. Do you feel that the Floyd murder was justified?

@Caravanfan Absolutely not. I think the cops were way over the top and need to be tried for murder. But let me ask…Michael Brown. Robbed a store, attacked a cop, hit him and tried to get his gun. When he was walking away the cop got out of the car and Brown turned to charge him again even when he was being told to get onto the ground. The cop shot him. Was that shooting justified?

@seawulf575 That’s the problem: these incidents are being treated as if they are all the same, but there are important differences between some of them. The killing of Floyd was not justified. He was in handcuffs, he was already subdued, there was no reason to kneel on him for eight minutes and ignore his expressions of distress. Michael Brown on the other hand had just strong-arm robbed a convenience store and reached for a cop’s gun. He was not shot with his hands up, yet protesters shout “hands up, don’t shoot” like it’s a reflection of reality. But you wouldn’t know these cases were any different from the way the media and the BLM movement talk about them.

@Demosthenes That is exactly my point. Not every case is a racism case, yet that is what is being portrayed. So when you listen to the cries of racism, you would believe that everything revolves around race, especially when it involves the cops. But in reality, there are blacks that are just thugs. They are really bad people. And they do bad things. And then the cops get involved and it may or may not be a white officer. That has nothing to do with race, it has to do with a guy doing his job of trying to stop bad people. I have brought up Justine Damond twice now to highlight the hypocrisy surrounding this issue. If a white cop drew his gun and shot a black woman running up to his car in her pajamas, there would be an outcry that he was a murderer and a racist. But when a black cop did it, there were cries that it was racist to hold him accountable for killing a woman. They actually tried defending him. So I firmly do not believe that racism is as rampant as it is portrayed to be.

^^Really? You two up there really believe these killings of black civilians by white cops are being treated the same? Why? Because there’s massive protests which seems to be the biggest so far these days and more Americans seem to be finally doing the right things on addressing it?

Or all this is simply and clearly non-racist American people finally tired of unjustified killings of black people by white cops?

How many amongst the protesting Americans out there do you think treat all black killings by white cops as the same? Can you give us a percentage?

@mazingerz88 From the aspect that there is automatic cries of racism when a white cop kills a black man, ALL such shootings are treated the same. I just compared George Floyd and Michael Brown. One was apparently just out and out murdered and the other was, in my opinion, a justified shooting. Yet both exacted cries of racism against police everywhere. Both resulted in riots, looting and mayhem. Both resulted in cops being ambushed and assassinated. Yet the cases are completely different in every aspect of how the victim was killed and why.

^^Is it completely different in every aspect? White cop, black suspect dead.

It seems Brown was walking away when instead of waiting for back-up Wilson chose to follow which ended up in Brown getting more bullets in his body.

Why didn’t Wilson wait for back-up? It’s not like Brown and his friend were walking around with machetes threatening to continue hacking more people.

@mazingerz88 Brown just robbed a convenient store and was strutting up the middle of the road when Officer Wilson drove up. He wasn’t responding to any call for robbery, he just happened to be going by. Brown and his buddy were right in the middle of the road. When Officer Wilson asked them to move, Brown came around to the driver’s side and began a dialogue that ended with him hitting the officer and trying to get his gun. When Officer Wilson managed to keep that from happening, Brown and his buddy began strutting away again. When Officer Wilson got out of his car, he ordered them to get on the ground. They had just assaulted a police officer. Brown turned and charged the police officer so the police officer shot him. And you ask why he didn’t wait for back up? You have a violent offender attacking you…twice. What do you expect? It is the cop’s job to arrest bad guys. Here’s a thought for you…rather than asking why Officer Wilson didn’t call for back up and try making it the cop’s fault, why don’t you ask why Brown attacked him in the first place? He was just asking for him to move out of the road. Why did he feel he had the right to attack a cop? And then, when the cop did get out of the car, with his gun, and told them to get on the ground, why did he attack again? You really don’t see the wrongness in all of Michael Brown’s actions? Had he not attacked the cop twice, he never would have gotten shot. The races have absolutely nothing to do with it…it has to do with Brown being an asshole.

Relevant article by Kareem
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-05-30/dont-understand-the-protests-what-youre-seeing-is-people-pushed-to-the-edge

@seawulf575 That’s the version of the story you chose to believe. Brown already walked away after being shot in the hands. Why not wait for back-up? He was no longer under attack. Why not return to your car and follow Brown while calling for medical back-up since you already shot someone in in the hands?

The cop’s job is to de-escalate so you they don’t end up murdering anybody for no reason other than maybe anger especially if the suspect was already walking away. What if it’s your son or Dad who was having a really bad day who was walking away and still the cop followed with a gun pointed at him?

It’s not his job to provoke nor arrest when you as a professional know there is a great chance the unarmed guy you already shot would feel threatened and attack you out of fear of being shot again or anger that you were still following despite him giving up.

He has no gun, you do. No chance he could outrun your bullet! Wait for back-up and you save someone’s life. That’s the job. Serve. Protect!

I do hope you get to finally understand this. Because some cops out there do not. Set aside your personal prejudice.

@mazingerz88 That is the version of the story I choose to believe because it is the truth. As verified by many witnesses, all of whom were black. In fact, the ONLY other story out there was that Brown was on his knees with his hands in the air when Officer Wilson shot him. Want to guess where that report came from? Oh yeah…his buddy. So when a whole lot of witnesses give one version of the story and one of the guys that is in trouble gives another, who are you gonna believe?
So unless you are entirely ignoring reality, the rest of your arguments fall by the wayside. And with it, your crazy belief that everything is racially motivated.

@seawulf575: You didn’t address the part of @mazingerz88‘s comment where she asked why the officer couldn’t wait for backup. Why was the only choice to shoot the man?

^^There in lies the rub. This is what happens when sometimes white cops are physically outmatched by bigger black guys. They “fear for their lives” and “how dare they attack a cop?” They probably feel insulted.

Scared they will be ridiculed when peers find out they were beaten by a suspect and they let the suspect escape them.

Who knows they just might be racists too maybe?

Wilson could have saved that troubled and violent young man from himself if only he chose not to save his pride and waited for back-up.

I don’t think he would had been fired from his job if he didn’t pursue this unarmed young man who they would have easily arrested safely later.

Back-up was on the way because that’s the first thing he did while still in the car.

He chose to get back on that big violent unarmed black young man by showing him he was no match to his bullets. What a weak-minded coward asshole using his badge for murder.

@seawulf575 Man, your prejudice sucks. Glad you’re not a cop.

@jca2 You have a violent offender. The guy just punched a cop who was sitting in his car and tried to grab the cop’s gun. What is a police officer to do? Let this sort of crazy man go on about his business until back up gets there? When he stepped out of his car, this same nut job charged at him for round 2. Maybe you are being a little too idealistic. At some point, Brown is WAY out of control and the officer defended himself. And both of you are ignoring the point that this shooting is in no way racially motivated. In fact, it was the black guy that initiated the altercation. The cop asked him to move to the side of the road. That isn’t a racial slur, it isn’t aggressive, it isn’t even disrespectful. It is asking for common courtesy. It certainly doesn’t invite assault and attempted murder. But why can’t you guys acknowledge that?

@mazingerz88 Again, you are ignoring many realities. I just explained them to @jca2 as well. Brown showed himself to be a violent thug. Letting him go was to put others in potential danger. The cop had to take action. Let’s follow through with your fantasy scenario. Let’s say he sat there and did nothing until back up showed up. Meanwhile, Brown and his thug buddy continue on their way. The cross paths with someone else who they want to show how tough they are. I mean after all they just assaulted a shop keeper and a cop. So that person then gets beat up or killed. And THEN the cops finally move in to arrest him. Is that what you are suggesting would be a better outcome? And when back up shows up, given his previous actions, do you really believe Brown would have given up without a fight? So now you have several cops having to subdue him and in the process he gets hurt. Oh my! Racism!!!!! It’s time for you to grow up a bit. And as I just challenged @jca2 you still haven’t explained how this is racism. All you can do is weakly say “Who knows? They might be racists too?” There is absolutely nothing to show any racism at all. Asking someone to stop walking up the middle of the road is asking for common courtesy…not a racial slur. So there was no racial motivation involved in this, except in a biased media and in the minds of people like you.

@seawulf575 Who made sure there was a Round 2, Officer Seawulf?

Wilson getting back in his car to follow Brown and act if necessary if Brown becomes a threat to others would have saved Brown’s life.

Give it up, man. It was a badge sanctioned execution Wilson did. Prejudice. How can it not be painful to have it embedded so deep inside of you? No crack at all? Not even a teeny weeny bit of crack? Sad.

@mazingerz88 Wilson was already attacked when following Brown. Are you really trying to ignore that? So your suggestion is to just repeat that? And if he came to attack Wilson again (which is exactly what he did), what them? And if he attacked someone else and officer Wilson had to act and Brown attacked him again (which is exactly what he did), what then? Shoot him? Well, we got there. You are the one grasping for some way to make this a racial thing. It wasn’t. The cop did not instigate. The cop was acting professionally. It was the black guy that was out of control and the cop used the force he deemed necessary given the situation. Oh! and that was what the final analysis of his case was…even after Obama sent his dogs down there to try making it about the cop. Sorry…this was not racial. How can you be so consumed with racism that you can’t see anything else?

^^Ooooo….I’m in my car being attacked by a huge bear of a violent black man. He better not break into my glass window or I will be forced to defend myself by shooting him with bullets. Because that’s THE ONLY WAY I can stop this raging behemoth! Also, that’s what Chief @seawulf575 would want me to do. And he’s right. I’m no racist. Just doing my job. Shoot to kill when I fear for my life. Now I know why this badge is in the shape of a shield. It’s a legal shield. Big Black Brown will never walk away from this alive. I will.

@seawulf575: And as I just challenged @jca2 you still haven’t explained how this is racism.

I didn’t say it was “racism” or not racism. I asked why the cop had no other choices. I didn’t mention racism at all.

@jca2 But the discussion surrounds double standards and led into race issues. You also started by stating I didn’t address @mazingerz88 concern. I just pointed out to you that neither he nor you addressed my concern about it not being racially motivated. I have been trying to keep the discussion into the theme of double standards.

^^Saved by “keeping it within the topic” stance. Do understand that and agree.

It just troubles me you find Wilson’s shooting of Brown to be justified. It wasn’t no matter how you spin it.

Racism? White police brutality on black perps? Brown’s life did not matter to Wilson the guy with the Gun. The one with the power of life and death in those last moments.

@mazingerz88 Wilson was found to be cleared of federal statutes for use of unreasonable force by the DoJ. There are other considerations that apply as well. Look at the cited cases that apply when considering this one. They all say the same thing. It was a justified shooting. That is why he was never indicted.
And again, you are trying to make it about race. How is it about race other than skin color? Racism has to do with attitude and intent. Unless you are talking about Michael Brown being a racist? After all, it was he that was initiating all the violence. Or are you really saying that no matter what a black guy does a cop can’t do anything in return without it being racism?

^^Yeah, the US Justice system never put innocent men behind bars either. Again another sad thing using the conclusion of “brilliant” legal minds and system as justification. They could justify anything. What about your own brain?

Wilson chose to be a killer for nothing except to satisfy his desire to have a black man submit to his will no matter what the cost. That’s justification for you.

There is a bigger deeper problem here that’s endemic and unless you change your beliefs on what’s justified or not in matter of white cop-black perp encounters, no doubt this issue will fester all the more.

@mazingerz88 You are helpless. You cling to your racism like it is a life preserver. The OBAMA DoJ found nothing wrong especially from a civil rights aspect. The local police found nothing wrong. The Missouri AG found nothing wrong. And YOU see nothing but racism. How about you use YOUR own brain? There was nothing racist about this. He didn’t have any desire to have a black man submit to his will and merely saying that doesn’t make it so. He was protecting himself from a thug. If a white guy had done what Brown did and acted the way he did, I’m pretty certain Officer Wilson would have shot him too. It was aggressively criminal actions…violent to the extreme. Brown showed no respect for anyone and was just showing what a tough guy he was. The only reason you can’t acknowledge that is because you are so obsessed with racism. You can see nothing else. That is probably because that is what the MSM feeds you 24/7.

^^Your prejudice stinks. Open your eyes. He did not protect himself from Brown. He did not even protect Brown from Brown himself. He did not protect anybody. It was anger. Confusion.

His reptilian brain felt nothing but fear and contempt from a huge animal ( not a human being ) who’s all muscle and death that needs to follow his command to sit or else he’ll put him down.

Your brain is giving justification to Wilson’s counter brutality and deadly act. That is simply quite brutal of you as well. Keep looking at the mirror.

^“Your brain is giving justification to Wilson’s counter brutality and deadly act.” No, the reports and the investigations give justification to Wilson’s act. On the other hand, it is only your brain that is creating things that aren’t there so the whole thing can support the racism narrative you liberals love so much. You are obsessed with it.

@seawulf575 Try harder. Maybe imagine you’re black right now walking the streets at night wearing a hood. You know, just to get fresh air or go to the store. Again, there was no justification for Wilson shooting at Brown in those last moments. It’s all in my posts above. Why are you deluding yourself?

@mazingerz88 Why do you insist on ignoring all the investigations, eyewitness reports, and incident reports? Everyone else is wrong and you are right? And you say I’m deluding myself? Carry on. You are a hopeless cause.

^^Why are you ignoring what happened? Wilson chose to pursue Brown and shot him. I’m talking about you. What you think. You insist on backing up your position with reasoning from people and a system that were just plain wrong.

Would Wilson do what he did if Brown was his brother? Or if he gives a shit about Brown’s life? The way you perceive what justified shooting is or not is warped. Get help.

So it seems another shooting sharing similar circumstances just took place. I have no doubt that it was justified again in your view. The guy fired a taser while running away from the police. He resisted arrest. So he deserved the bullets. Congrats. Your score.

@Demosthenes “That’s the problem: these incidents are being treated as if they are all the same”

No, they’re not. They’re being treated as if they are all part of the same pattern. If you don’t understand the difference, then you don’t understand the issue. Yes, the Michael Brown case is a messy example. It’s not exactly the same as George Floyd or Tamir Rice. But it can still be part of a pattern of cops using force against black men in situations where they don’t use it against white men. It can still be part of a pattern of cops not being held accountable for their actions in any serious way. And it can still be part of that pattern even if you think Wilson was legally justified in shooting Brown. Because “legally justified” doesn’t mean “necessary.” Nor does it mean “morally justified.” If a white man can shoot seven cops, killing one, and still be taken alive, so can a guy who punches a cop.