Is part of the problem in America we are trying to erase race?

Lots involved here! On one hand, yes…we are trying to erase race. And sex. And gender. And just about every other way to categorize people. It is being done ostensibly to create equality. Everyone and everything has to be acceptable to everyone.
On the other hand, we want to use these same differences as weapons to be used against one another. Black Lives Matter for a perfect example. If you say All Lives Matter, which would be the most inclusive of all statements, you are attacked because you aren’t specifying Black Lives. Those pushing Black Lives Matter want blacks to be considered differently from everyone else, but seem to get upset when they are viewed differently. Maybe they want people to view them as better than everyone else?
The reality is that we live in a world which is populated by many people, no two of which are alike. Even within any of the categories of race, sex, religion or any other…no two people are alike. And we can’t seem to accept that. Someone always seems to want to be better than someone else and people cannot accept when other people don’t approve or embrace their differences or opinions.

@seawulf575 Black people want to be seen as better than everyone else? Give me a break. How does your mind even go there? Never mind, I know how your mind goes there. Did you watch the video by any chance? Considered differently? You really stress me out.

I absolutely agree that my generation (x) was taught to not see race. We were all one family. I learned in church, Sesame Street and at home.
In a recent discussion with my mother, I learned that mu grandparents did have an issue with racism against Asians. It hurt me.

@KNOWITALL Feel threatened by black people?

@JLeslie Sorry I edited while you posted.

I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable right now, no.

@JLeslie I thought I explained my statement fairly well. If you disagree, then explain why someone would get upset when you say all lives matter? I mean, don’t they? You don’t agree that all lives matter? Or do only black lives matter? And if only black lives matter, why is that? Are they more important? See…this is exactly what I was talking about. There are two thoughts running around that seem to attack each other. Either we are looking for equality or we are looking for celebrating differences. Either we are all equal or some are viewed as being better or more important that others. Blacks had a horrid past…I get it. But so did the Irish…probably as bad a run as blacks in many ways. They were viewed as substandard, worthy of ethnic cleansing, and basically slaves as well. What if I were to say “Irish Lives Matter”? Think people would accept that and embrace it or would they call me a racist because the Irish aren’t black? And if they don’t embrace it, why not? Are the people not accepting it being more or less inclusive or considering the history of all persons the same?
I’m really not trying to stress you…I’m just explaining my answer to you…giving you a peek into how I think. And as I said…no two of us will see things alike and we can’t seem to accept that.

@seawulf575 The reason some people don’t like “all lives matter” isn’t because they don’t believe that all lives matter. It’s because “all lives matter” is always said in reaction to “black lives matter”. It isn’t a genuine expression of concern for all lives, it’s something said because “black lives matter” is perceived as a kind of attack, and those who say “black lives matter” resent the fact that it is perceived that way. “Black lives matter” doesn’t mean “only black lives matter”. There’s an insecurity involved in interpreting it that way. It means “police and many others do not value black lives, so we are reminding them that they matter”. One may not agree that black lives are not valued by police or white people, but that is the intent behind the phrase. It is not an expression of “black superiority”. It is certainly an acknowledgment of race, however, as people who say it believe that blacks are treated worse than other races.

Too many people want to “erase race” because then they don’t have to be responsible for the structural racism in this country. If “All Lives Matter” then there should be outrage expressed by those in power and action taken when someone is killed by the police.

People of color aren’t asking for “race to be erased.”; they (we) are asking that white people recognize and acknowledge that structural racism exists.

@Desmosthenes Unpopular opinion warning. Seeing violent and destructive behavior happening now isn’t helping people see that from a compassionate place.

We’ve watched as the black community perpetrates violence on each other, idealize thug life to the number of 67% of black deaths being by blacks.

Yes some cops are bad, everyone seems to understand that and support efforts to stop that, myself included (big good LEO supporter.) Now those people are watching attacks on random people and property, elderly and children, so of course there’s pushback and disapproval.

The message is getting lost now, and it was a good message. Kneeling in solidarity with good people is cool, it can foment positive change. Kneeling with people hurting other Americans for fun instead of change, not so much.

@KNOWITALL I agree the message is getting lost and I agree that this perception needs to be acknowledged as well. If black lives do in fact matter, the focus cannot only be on violence by cops. Violence by cops is especially heinous as police are charged with protecting us and they so often are not held accountable for the violence they perpetrate (I’ve heard accounts of police in Minneapolis taking people into allies and beating them up—what happened was not an isolated reaction to George Floyd, it was a reaction that had been building up for years. It was the same in Ferguson and Watts. These riots are never only about the one incident that sets people over the edge). But there is so much violence in these communities perpetrated by the residents as well, gang violence, shootings and robberies: reforming the police is only the first step.

The fact is that we will never be able to move past race in this country as long as there are massive disparities between the races. As long as black people, for example, are dead last in nearly every statistic, we cannot ignore race because this inequality is along racial lines and it makes race all too visible. So the question is: what is causing this inequality between the races? Is part of what is causing it the fact that we “see race”? There may be a vicious cycle involved here.

I was taught to not see race as a child too. I was taught that the differences were only in the color of skin, which is ultimately meaningless. But how can I not see race when the impoverished side of town is nearly all black and Hispanic and the rich side is all white and Asian? Race makes itself visible whether I want to see it or not.

“I’ve moved the Negro from D+ to C-. He’s still nowhere. He knows it. And that’s why he’s out on the streets. Hell, I’d be there too.” LBJ.

We can point to all the ways in which black people “have it better” now, but in many ways they aren’t much beyond the “C-” of the 1960s in terms of incarceration rates, poverty, access to quality schools, etc. That’s the kind of thing that makes it impossible to “erase race”.

I’m a little old white lady in the USA. I have taught English as a second language (ESL) for many years. I love it because I get to travel the world through the lives of my students. I love hearing about traditions, music, foods, beliefs and customs, I see race as an extension of culture. I love exploring culture in all kinds of directions, and for me, skin color only scratches the surface.

Several years ago I tried to strike up a conversation with a young (black) woman about how much fun it was to explore foods from different cultures. She shut me down with the most withering look. How could I possibly know- or care?

White people are not taught to not see race. White people just don’t see it like people of color do, so white people simply don’t think about it. White people are not trying to “erase race,” white people don’t think about it and don’t want to think about it. There is too much of other things to think about without obsessing about race.
My grandfather was raised in Texas and worked with blacks for many years. He respected them, and they respected him. But this is what he had to say about the issue: “There is no such thing as equality. The black man has been (viewed as) subordinate for a long time and, if given the chance, wants his turn to be on top.”

@Desmosthenes I agree to a point but I’ve also seen an incredible number of highly educated, professional blacks in my area. At what point do two black children in the same school system divurge where one studies hard and goes to college, and the other loses a full ride scholarship because he chose thug life? (This is a true story from my area.)

It’s hard to blame it entirely on circumstance, as there is personal choice involved, too. Obama encouraged successfull blacks to support others and their communities. Marshawn Lynch is a great example of that working. It is a multi-faceted issue we have to address piece by piece, to eradicate.

I agree. I believe there are systemic issues at play and there are personal, cultural issues involved as well. The problem is many only want to see one. They deny the existence of systemic racism and think it’s all down to personal choice and cultural failures within the black community. Others won’t acknowledge the internal issues and blame it all on racism and oppression by white people. Neither approach will actually solve the issue, in my mind.

Yes!
People are proud of their heritage, culture & yes, struggle.
The way things are going though, it points to a self fulfilling prophecy.

if the “goal” is for people to not even see race, that’s a stupid and impossible goal. There is absolutely nothing “wrong” with seeing race.
The goal is the same goal it’s been since MLK said, ”“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”” And then they shot him.

When I was teaching at the jail one of my students had burn marks on his chest. I finally knew him well enough to ask what had happen. When he was 5 some older kids had thrown gasoline on him and lit a match.
I asked, “Why??”
He said, “Because I’m black.”

Also, plenty of white people are in on the violence and the opportunity to be an asshole.

The problem has nothing to do with any such nonsense as eliminating race. That’s equivalent to thinking our troubles would end if only all of us were white. The problem is that this place is promulgated on the principle of racial superiority, and we all know WHICH race comes first. In fact, the rules for privilege are so deeply ingrained and powerful that they must be openly challenged for us to be aware of them.

I don’t think so.

Its ALL Americans searching for equality in all areas of life.

The majority of any group will try to suppress the minority in any society.

Example : Here in Canada , pertaining to Quebec especially , where the French were oppressed among an English population.

Quebec solved that by encouraging the French to have more children to the point that the French people formed there own Province and changed laws to reflect their customs,language and equality.

Perhaps this is just one way to get equality for a self regulated group?

Even there own State whereby it would be equal rights etc for all and Governed by black representatives in power.

I see this in Religions ..example: Mormons are the majority in one State?

The above is just some thoughts on it to try an corner the problems and come out with out of the box thinking, to help in some way.

A different view.

@Demosthenes I interpret Black Lives Matter in one of two ways. The first is as a reminder that black lives do matter…they aren’t fungible. But the second is it also is a separation from all lives. To me, ALL lives matter encompasses everyone, including blacks. In this country, cops kill more white people than all other ethnic groups combined (just about). And I have given (on other threads) many examples of whites that were basically murdered through bad cops at work. To me, to say “Black Lives Matter” and get mad when someone says All Lives Matter (getting mad happens often) negates all the other deaths from cops in this nation. And that is a racist view. It separates Blacks from everyone else and attempts to put them in the forefront of everyone else. And this thread shows the truth of my view. Look at how people have jumped to defending BLM and attempting to negate ALM.

“I don’t see race” is a privilege afforded by those who can go through life without their race working against them. As far as “all lives matter” – it’s nothing more than an attempt by certain white folks to hijack the conversation and distract from the issue at hand.

@Darth_Algar I’ve been screwed over because I’m white in my life…a couple times. But it just doesn’t effect how I feel about other races. It does effect how I feel about a society that is so screwed up that race can be used as a trading card. I work with many blacks and hispanics, I have them living in my neighborhood. And I don’t care. The good ones are good people, the bad ones are assholes. Kinda like with any group of people…and for the same reasons.
As for “all lives matter”, you are partially right. It is an effort not to hijack the conversation or distract from the issue at hand, but to temper it. Why does the pendulum always have to swing as far as it can one way or the other? It isn’t just black lives that are important. It isn’t just black people who have families that love them or friends that miss them. It is ALL people. And whether a cop kills a black person or a white person or a green person as they did with George Floyd, it is wrong. Period.

Uh-huh.

It is complicated. In an ideal world, skin color should not matter any more than eye color or hair color. But it is not an ideal world. Blacks are discriminated against, and we must recognize this.

There is something else to consider. Being separated from white society, there has been the development of a separate black culture. In the arts and in sports, blacks have made a highly significant contribution. Pop music – jazz, rock and now hip hop is largely a creation of the black community. Even as they are oppressed, they have created a cultural identity of which they can be justifiably proud. If we ignore race, do we deny a distinctive black cultural achievement?

When first I heard the slogan “All lives matter”, I took it as a chant from PETA or some such outfit. The thing about the insistence that the mantra is somehow a less racist substitute misses the entire point, and is in fact insulting. It’s like saying “so what? Why are you complaining? They beat everyone. As if it is common knowledge that “I am singled out for being white”.

You know, Stanley, so did I. (Just the Peta part.)

I was looking at your answer and trying to figure out what possible misspelling might prompt a spell-check app to substitute “Stable” for “Stanley”.

Me too! Stanley is so far from stable.
Sometimes my phone is quite the prankster. ;-p

@Inspired_2write What you are proposing is a segregated society. That is even a worse idea than what we deal with today.

@KNOWITALL I’m assuming you mean there might be random black people who are acting more irrationally or angry with everything going on and as a white woman you feel more vulnerable? Maybe I’m wrong on my assumption? Or, do you mean in a macro way a huge change is coming in the US? That we are going over some sort of destructive cliff? I don’t feel any different right now when I see black people in every day life where I live or places I go, but I am willing to consider that some parts of cities might be scarier for a white person to be in right now, but maybe those areas white people always stand out? I willingly admit I feel more on guard in a neighborhood that is predominantly poor and black, but I feel just as on guard in a place that has a lot of confederate flags and rifles for all to see.

I am worried about violence during the protests, but a lot of it is white people coming in and smashing windows and setting fires.

I don’t agree with the slogan defund the police, but every interview I see with political leaders and police chiefs in the last two weeks has calmed me down about it. I still think it is a bad slogan though.

As far as your statement about being raised to not see color, This idea became real to me when I moved to the South. Not just race, but like everything about ethnicity was erased. It was actually very odd to me. I was raised to see everyone as an individual, equal, but we didn’t completely ignore being Italian, Irish, black, Asian. It was like our differences made us the same, plus we shared the American experience and culture. My perception of the absence of acknowledging any ethnicity or race was it was an over reaction to the history in the South, kind of proving they were not racist or bigoted, but maybe younger people around the country are more like you in general and it is not a reaction to racism in previous generations. Moreover, a Southern friend once told me that Southerners are proud to be Southerners, that is where their identity lies more than if their great great grandparents came over from Ireland or England.

@seawulf575 I honestly don’t understand thinking black people want to be seen as better than other people. That sounds like projecting to me. Then I see @kritiper wrote his grandfather said, “there is no such thing as equality. The black man has been (viewed as) subordinate for a long time and, if given the chance, wants his turn to be on top.” So, basically the same thing you are saying. No wonder some white people want to keep the black man down. This way of thinking has never occurred to me.

I guess you think black people, and maybe you think this about other minorities too, will treat white people the way white people have treated them? Why? Because they will want revenge for the horrible way they were treated? I wouldn’t blame them, but they are, we are, smarter than that. Minorities just want what America is supposed to be, equal opportunity and equal treatment for all. If you think it is a power struggle than you create your own self fulfilling prophecy. You create the war. If things were truly equal some black people will rise to the top of the social strata, but most will be middle class, just like any other group of people in America. That’s happening anyway, just not as much as one would hope, because of forces working against them.

As far as all lives matter, I initially had that reaction, but then after a bit I put myself in their place and understood their point. I had a Q back when the synagogue had the mass shooting in Pennsylvania, and I was pissed off people were using the term “place of worship.” NO! That was a shooting in a Synagogue or Temple where JEWISH people congregate by an admitted antiSemitic homicidal man. When the shooting at the church happened in Charleston and some Christians politicians and in the media were sayin it was an attack on Christians, I just knew to ask if is was a black church. That was not an assault on Christians, or an assault on religion, or a shooting in a place of worship, that was an assault on BLACK people where they congregate. See, if you make it all lives matter, you are saying to black people and Jewish people and Muslim people, we don’t see the hate and violence against you, we don’t acknowledge there is more against your groups. You need to put yourself in their place. I think I asked you about being able to do that on another Q and you ignored me. You just can’t do it maybe. Imagine you live in a 70% black country, they have more power and more money, and you just want to be treated equally.

You and @kritiper‘s grandfather are basically saying you have to keep black people down.

@Inspired_2write You aren’t quite right about the majority oppressing the minority. It’s usually a few at the top, who have money, who oppress the masses. It seems like a lot of white people don’t even realize they are being oppressed by other white people. They are like wolves in sheeps’ clothing.

As far as people living in particular states, that sounds a lot like separate but equal. What are you going to do? Move any Mormons living in GA to Utah? Americans should be able to live anywhere they want in America, or do you want to break apart America also? I don’t accept that entire groups are vying to be in power to put others at the bottom. I just thinking everyone wants a place at the table, a fair shot.

@JLeslie I meant the current sentiment and violence has created mistrust. I truly never thought I would feel this way, here but I do.
As far as my generation, we were latch key kids and learned from tv shows like Sesame Street, Different Stokes, Jeffersons, etc… I still remember raps from my teens and had mad love for Whitney, Prince, Michael Jackson, etc.. There was no seperation. My black friends stayed overnight with the rest of my friends. We emulated black culture, it was cool. Cop Killer was very popular at parties. There was zero hate.
All this is far outside of my comfort zone and I’m very disturbed and heartsick. I’m trying to understand, truly, and empathize. Here a local black dealer feels comfortable enough to flip off our PD when they pass on the street, so it’s difficult to absorb all the current events.His brother has a Trump sticker on his car.
If I turned off the news and social media, I wouldn’t believe this is happening.

@JLeslie That was never the feeling I got and you shouldn’t assume what my grandfather meant. He stated it as a matter of fact and I find that I must agree with him based on what I have seen and learned about people over the years.

@zenvelo
@JLeslie

No I did not propose that ALL people move to a State etc

In Canada and some States in the U.S. It happened that some of same ideals weather Religious or Race/ cultures moved closer together and formed a Province/State.

It occurred naturally like attracts like as the saying goes.

Much like in our Town Philippians. Vietnamese, Koreans,French Speaking,Chinese, cultures formed there own Community Programs etc, although they still live as a whole community all together with NO problems.(No segregation ).

It was on that line of thinking that I was mentioning.

@kritiper A matter of fact black people want to be on top?

@Inspired_2write It’s true minority groups often have parts of a city or the country where they are in denser numbers, especially when they are new to the country, but eventually that begins to change as they move to other places. There shouldn’t be any segregation or prejudices, so it shouldn’t matter where people live. Sometimes minorities live near each other to feel accepted and safe. When they are new immigrants it can be because they go where friends and family already are.

@KNOWITALL It is troubling, but I find I’m much more afraid of these people purposely coming to create more chaos and rile everyone up even more.

@JLeslie Maybe you don’t want to understand. When blacks were slaves, the pendulum was all the way to one side. That is never good. Then came a long, protracted effort to get equality. That is the pendulum swinging back to the middle. Equality would be the middle. That is the point where race doesn’t matter. As Dr. King said, people are judged on their character and not on the color of their skin. That is the “All Lives Matter” point. Skin color doesn’t matter…if someone is being targeted, it needs to stop (unless it is for good reason such as a criminal being investigated). If cops are killing people needlessly, it needs to stop. And skin color still doesn’t matter. Those actions are just wrong and need to be halted. But when someone says “Black Lives Matter” it starts a separation of races. That is the pendulum swing the other way. And when those same people get mad about hearing “All Lives Matter” they are negating that other races matter and are putting their own complaints and causes over everyone else. That is pushing the pendulum farther the other way. When that pendulum is too far one way or the other, you will always have strife and anger and hatred. Your call. What do you support?

@JLeslie Correct. And it applies to all people, not just blacks.

@seawulf575 Actually, Dr. King said, ” I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
That judgment had not yet occurred, and has not yet occurred.

@seawulf575 As far as the police, they are not pushing the pendulum farther the other way. I See black community leaders and black mayors, and black police chiefs on TV for the last two weeks all saying that defund was not really the right word, and that the places most heavily policed typically warrant more policing. None of those black leaders are backing away from that.

As far as getting jobs back in the 70’s, they might have had some advantages momentarily, because the only way to get them equality was to swing the pendulum back the other way to CATCH THEM UP, or try to anyway. My husband works in compensation for big companies, and when a company is way out of whack, 90% white males in a city that is 50% females and 70% white, the company will actively try to hire more women and minorities, because their practices have obviously been biased, so for the next year or so, white males will be less likely to be hired. Too bad if you are the white male looking for a job during those two years. If the company had just been less biased in their hiring all along you would not be SOL.

The lesson should be, if you don’t want the pendulum to swing hard the other way, then don’t treat any group like shit. A lot of white people don’t seem to get it.

@kritiper I can’t tell you how much I disagree with your statement. Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by being on top? I’m Jewish and we don’t want the whole world to be Jewish, we just want to be able to be Jewish. I see it basically the same way. Black people just want to have the same equality as white Americans. If you see it as one group on top while another is on the bottom then that’s really scary. If both groups have similar goals then why would there be a specific group on top? So, I guess for these white men who think this way they are afraid of women, blacks, Hispanics, anyone who they perceive as not like them. LOL What a fraidy cat joke. Talk about Napoleon Complex.

@KNOWITALL “Here a local black dealer feels comfortable enough to flip off our PD when they pass on the street”

As it should be. No one should ever fear to exercise their 1st Amendment right towards an agent of the state.

@seawulf575 I agree. Seems to me we are regressing not progressing. Sad.

@Darth_Algar Yes, it’s a running joke in our city. As long as he isn’t carrying he flips them off. Crazy kid.

@JLeslie I personally missed out on a promotion in the 90’s because a co-worker who was black threatened to sue if he wasn’t promoted. I had seniority and more qualifications but he ended up getting the promotion instead. I don’t blame him and we talked honestly about it and are still friends to this day. But the only reason he got the promotion was because he was black. That falls to the corporation for giving in to the threat. It means either they were discriminatory in their hiring practices over time or they were just trying to avoid any legal entanglements. Either way they were the problem. To put it into perspective, that area was probably 80%+ white and the balance black and hispanic. Probably more hispanics than blacks. I had a chance later on to make some of the hiring decisions. And I know that I was under pretty close scrutiny when interviewing people. I had to have a list of questions that I passed by HR prior to using them and pretty much had to ask all the applicants the same questions. I couldn’t ask one person 3 of the questions and the next 12. When I made a decision on who I wanted, I had to give reasons for that decision. And those decisions were reviewed by my manager, the site HR, and the corporate Industrial Relations group to ensure there was no bias. I don’t believe I ever had a black applicant in 4 years, but I did hire women and hispanics, and age really wasn’t an issue either. So the hiring process when I was doing it was filled with checks and balances that no discriminatory hiring was being done. Subsequent positions I held also led to me doing interviews of potential candidates with a different company. This process was likewise regulated and controlled pretty closely. So I don’t see in my experiences that discrimination in the work place is that rampant. But that is my own experience.
I recognize that the affirmative action that went on back in the day favored blacks more than whites. And it was that which put a lot of the checks and balances in place that I spoke of. But we are talking about people’s lives now. And to give preferential treatment to someone because they are black instead of white is just as bad as discriminating against someone because they are black instead of white. This is a consideration where swinging the pendulum is not acceptable to my way of thinking. It is a category where we should embrace everyone instead one group or another.

@JLeslie By being on top I mean being the one who puts the other one down, being (supposedly) superior, being (supposedly) better than, being able to put the shit on instead of getting the shit. To have roles reversed.
And still not being equal.
It is not a “WHITE ONLY” thing. Any “fear”, prejudice, bias, assumption, whatever you want to call it, people of all races do it.(Generally speaking.) You, yourself, Jew or otherwise, may not do it, but I’d bet even money that there are Jews who do. So Jews are not exempt. (IMO)

@kritiper You’re absolutely right. I’ve seen it in Koreans as well as Vietnamese. The lighter the skin the better your status.

People of Japanese origin are whiter than Caucasians, but they get shit, too.

I think that all anyone really wants is a little respect for being who and what they are.

People ignore the big elephant in the room, that this is in large part a class issue. People can give lip service to equality all they want but until there is a path forward to get the large clusters of people who have been forced into economic disparity through the Jim crow era on an even keel then this will stay with us. The culture that has grown up around some of these communities is toxic. It’s a form of segregation and it crosses generational barriers. I don’t know how to repair this either. Some people make it out sure but those barriers are still there and hard to get around.

^^Thank you! I wrote out an answer about social class three times yesterday and deleted. I couldn’t bring myself to participate more on the thread yesterday after some of the comments. Social class is what separates us more than race, religion, or any other group distinction.

If we had more equality in wages, education, and living conditions, it would lead to even more and faster assimilation (America is good at assimilating people anyway) and people would be more similar in how they think and behave. I don’t mean turning people into zombie followers, I just mean General American culture. We have shown a large middle class creates prosperity and an overall good state for the individual and the country. Now, we have people fighting to let the rich get richer and keep people down? It’s third world mentality. It’s scary to me, I can barely think about it.

If everyone does well we all do well. White people wanting to keep the poor in their place create the very problems they complain about.

I am certain that there has been an attempt to make white people not see race.
But of course they do.
Unless they are blind.
Which means that plenty of white people , who have been subjected to the attempt to make them not see race, realize that the attempt is futile and is bullshit.
So the question is how many white people pretend they don’t see race, even if they do.
And how many people admit they see it.
The problem is you can’t win.
If you pretend you don’t, you look like a naive fool.
If you admit you do it is assumed you have a negative bias.

The thing that works, for me anyway, is to be indifferent.

You don’t fuck with me, I don’t fuck with you. Beyond that you are OK.

Seems pretty simple. In my opinion.

When we went to KC to hook up with my son by another mother and father, who is black, and who I’d lost track of 20 years earlier, his wife, Alesha, told me her name. I asked her how she spelled it….just like it sounds, Val! Alesha! I felt sheepish.

Okay