Do you think K-12 schools should open this fall?

Nope. Nopity nope nope nope. I do not think there is such a thing as “acceptable preventable losses” especially when it it comes to children. What is the acceptable number of fatalities for children ages 5–10? 11–14? 15–18? How about for the teachers and staff? It’s rough, I get it, but the toll of losing children in school is crippling and preventable. I live spitting distance from Sandy Hook, I live in a town where an unstable boy stabbed a girl to death in the hallway of the high school because she wouldn’t go to prom with him. Both of those things could likely have been prevented, no one knows for sure, like other school shootings. We are all, years later, still reeling from these events.

But to send kids back to in-person school when you can fairly accurately predict the losses and prevent them by keeping the alternative measures in place? What a gross concept, it boggles the mind.

Will the president’s school-aged child be back in the classroom? Will his school-aged grandchildren?

As the situation stands right now, as a former teacher in middle school, no. If you’ve ever taught, you know how ridiculous the talking heads’ belief that the students will sit quietly in their seats, six feet apart, wearing a mask properly is. Have you ever walked down a school hallway when classes were changing? That should be enough to convince most that even the most well behaved students in the classroom can’t maintain social distancing at school. My last year of teaching, I had nearly 200 students. Use Devos’ percentage of those who might die and see what you think. I just cannot imagine. One death in an entire school leaves the entire school reeling, teachers and students, so cannot even imagine how they’d cope with multiple deaths, which is what would be almost inevitable. And, let us not forget, all the drills for a shooter on campus. No, just no.

And what about the kids that refuse to wear masks because their parents think it’s a hoax? Or snatch the masks off of other kids because it’s part of a new bully culture?
Or cough on each other as a joke?
Or the parents that yell into the faces of the staff because they don’t like the mask rule?
And so on…

I sure hope they are able to open here in my town in MA, as long as it’s done safely. We’re getting MA Department of Education documents and guidelines that require towns draft 3 plans (in-person, hybrid, remote).

It’s understandable that people are hesitant to open schools, but I can’t help but feel that things could be even worse if kids are home. Worth than deaths? Possibly. A complete loss of a generation. I’m quite worried about the mental and physical health of kids right now, and I’m not sure what type of deadly, longterm effects social isolation and lack of education will have on them.

There is no good option, to be honest. But here in MA, people wear masks and the opening of the economy hasn’t been as devastating as it has been in more backwards areas of the country that seem to simultaneously want to “open the economy” and sabotage the opening of the economy by not wearing masks, etc.

So am I enthusiastic about bringing kids back to school full-time everywhere? No. But christ, I hope some places can pull off some type of in-person schooling using safe protocols.

So, @canidmajor, is that a”maybe”? Lol.

I’m just so glad it’s an “academic” question for me. I’m glad I’m not a parent of young kids right now nor a teacher in a school. It’s not that I’m not concerned for everyone facing this, I just don’t have a clear opinion.

As @hmmmmmm says, the best decisions about it should probably be made on a local basis. I don’t think the Feds who are doing nothing to help, should have any power to dictate about what’s done. They’ve proven pretty clearly what their priorities are.

@hmmmm Not going back to school is worse than death? I’m stunned anyone would say this. Hopefully it is just for another semester. Kids can get through this if people would just let them instead of babying the shit out of them.

I saw a meme on Instagram today that said “How would social distancing work during an active shooter drill?” Good point.

I don’ think schools where I live will return to in-school learning in the autumn of 2020. I live in NY not far from where @canidmajor lives (although a different state). I am happy and lucky that our governor withstood a lot of heat and flack during the shutdown, and now NY is on the winning side of the curve, while so many other states are suffering terribly with deaths and hospitalizations. I have been saying since around April, that I don’t think school will return in the fall. Other mom friends have been saying “It has to.” I was saying “It doesn’t have to.” I don’t think it will return until sometime maybe in early 2021.

Even with a vaccine, there are so many stupid and paranoid people who think the vaccine will have microchips in it and there will be some type of conspiracy, and so they won’t get it. Plus with so many sick people in other states like Florida, it’s going to continue going around and around.

I just went away to Newport RI and everyone there was compliant with mask wearing. In restaurants, in the hallways of the resort, in public spaces like historic sites, everyone had a mask on, even outside on the grounds of the sites. Where I live, lots of people are defiant and don’t want to wear the mask. On FB, they bitch and moan and say that the masks don’t help, what if I have a health condition and can’t wear it, blah blah blah.

I am fortunate that my daughter is now old enough to stay home by herself so child care is not an issue. I do feel bad for parents of little kids who need to try to provide day care for them plus teach them things. My daughter still sees her friends, a limited number of friends, like six girls, some maybe a few times a week and some maybe once a month.

@hmmmmmm: I think if schools were closed for five or ten years, then yes, it would be “a complete loss of a generation.” However, since it may be a year, roughly, that schools will be closed, I don’t think it will be a complete loss, other than maybe some remedial catching up when schools reopen.

@chyna: “I’m stunned anyone would say this.”

Understandable. Not a popular opinion, and not even popular with myself. To be honest, I’m in near tears about the loss that my kids have already experienced, and are about to experience.

What grades are your children in?

I hope you’re right, @jca2. That’s not what I am seeing, however. And my friends in the mental health community are very concerned.

@hmmmmmm: We just took a vacation of a few days (Newport) and like I said, my daughter sees her friends on a regular basis and is in touch with them daily on Face Time and playing video games with them and stuff like that. Maybe that’s the difference between them being very affected and being ok. I asked her the other day what she would rather, return to school or continue staying home and she said she likes staying home. We’re having a great summer so far! Other years, she’s in camp and I’m rushing out the door in the morning to get her to camp and I’m stressed out with the commute, and then I’m rushing to pick her up from camp after work, then home to take showers, put the clothes in the laundry, get dinner, get ready for the next day. This year, she’s up late playing video games with her friends on the phone and then she sleeps late, and I’m doing a lot of work remotely, so not dealing with going to the office. Then at the end of the day (like today, around six), friends come to the lake or we go to their pool or we go to dinner, and it’s like a really nice summer, instead of a stressed out, busy summer where we don’t really do summer things except on the weekend.

Maybe if we were stuck in a small apartment or we never socialized with anyone, things would be different, mentally. I’m also low-anxiety, so that probably helps.

By sheer chance, I just came back from walking my dog at the local park which seemed to be overrun by kids of all ages. Thought about the school issue as I watched the younger kids, early elem., I’d say, running around, screaming, tackling each other, and running back and forth, then flinging themselves down to roll down some of the gentle slopes out there. Not exactly social distancing, even under the supervision of 3–4 adults/parents. Older bunch down the way were playing basketball, huffing, puffing, snorting, and yelling back and forth while in very close proximity. They seemed to be being supervised, too, tho’ maybe a youth program coach (there were 4–5 adults, anyway). Again, not exactly social distancing. Youngest kids were largely in a separate playground, all just darting about, hugging, yelling, etc. In other words, all were kids being kids. No social distancing and tho’ the basketball watching adults seemed to be trying to keep some sort of order while making suggestions on how to improve, hence my take that they were coaches of some sort, not exactly the safest atmosphere for anyone. And, while all this was going on, folks like me walking their dogs, joggers, walkers, and even some park workers passing by. Schools wouldn’t be much different, especially noting the early elem. aged kids were in relatively small groups, then ran together gleefully to run and play. I gave it a wide berth and fortunately didn’t remember the newer info on covid perhaps being airborne at the time. Sigh.

These are stats from 3 days ago in my city: Of today’s 60 new cases, 13 are younger than 19 and 24 are in their 20s.

Returning to in class school in 6 weeks is a big fat NO from me. Our daily positive case count continues to break the previous day’s record.

I think this should be decided locally.

I think they should re-open, with a plan. That is, they cannot return to full pre-pandemic normalcy. But it’s important that kids are able to return to school. Distance learning pales in comparison, especially for the younger children. We’re all losing because of this pandemic, but young children may be losing the most.

Fuck no. It’s the moral equivalent of intentionally deploying a biological weapon on our own population…

@gorillapaws I agree but that weapon’s already been deployed by the early re-opening of bars, restaurants, etc. in many states. And Covidiots.

@janbb ”...but that weapon’s already been deployed…”

True—it’s like a second biological weapon being deployed into a population that’s still dealing with the first one.

I’m in Florida and schools open in less than a month. I will not be sending my kids to school. I do not trust the Governor nor the state Department of Education and don’t believe he should be interfering with school decisions (we have an order that all schools must be open at least five days a week starting next month).

I also have little trust with the Department of Health, as there have been multiple accusations of data trickery and manipulating/hiding certain data.

It should have been a no-brainer that everyone who returns to school wears a mask. But we wasted months arguing and developing crap policies over just that. What a waste of time and effort.

There should have been money set aside to prepare for online/remote/hybrid learning over the summer. It seems like this should have been somewhat anticipated, given that schools typically open back up in the “fall” (early August, here).

Our state currently has higher rates of COVID than anywhere else on the Earth.

@Cupcake FYI Like with everything in Florida regarding covid, school districts can go stricter than state guidelines. Miami-Dade is still evaluating. I thought I heard the schools would not open on time, but I’m not sure that’s accurate. I did read that almost 50% of parents surveyed down there (Over 100,000 parents) said they would be choosing online school.

I saw an interview with a medical professional from Miami who I guess works with the schools and she said this sane thing that the governors order basically says all schools can open and should have the goal of opening, but if a specific area has cases out of control then they need to adjust based on what is happening in the local area.

I agree this all should have been thought through months ago.

Regarding positivity rates. I noticed in the state data a few days ago a lot of labs reporting 100% positive rates. This morning I saw an article about it. It can’t be right I don’t think, and the article questioned the same thing. I don’t know if the positive results are overstated (the count) or if it’s just the percentage that might be wrong? It’s being investigated I would think, now that it’s being reported. Hospitals probably do have very high positivity, but general testing? 100%? Something is wrong.

My opinion is:

I think everyone who can keep their kids at home and use remote learning should.

I think the schools should open, because otherwise a lot of kids are in daycare, and school is better.

The schools should have much fewer students if those who can home school are doing just that.

The schools need to take precautions obviously to inhibit transmission. The teachers should be provided N95 masks and other protective wear.

I think teachers should be able to keep all benefits if they don’t teach this year, like bridging their pensions.

Start times should be staggered.

Everyone is acting like people are being forced to put their kids in school. No they aren’t.

People say they are worried we will lose a whole generation of kids if they get behind a year. No we won’t! It’s not that dire.

Kids are home schooled all the time and do just fine.

If kids get behind one year so what. They graduate when they are 19. Lots of kids do.

I’ve heard stats thrown around about how many children will die, and I completely disagree with crazy high numbers. Schools will close if transmission is high just like we do for flu. Will some children die? Probably yes. Children die every year from flu, meningitis, and other horrible things. Fewer will die from those with all the precautions taken for covid. The biggest problem is kids bringing the virus home, so it is very important to have a lot of safeguards. If the safeguards aren’t working then shut it all down.

Florida is seeing registration for online learning greatly increase. I think this option is great. Parents don’t need to figure out how to homeschool on their own. The curriculums mirror in person school and the children go at their own pace.

If I had children I would keep them home if I could.

@JLeslie Can open vs. mandatory “at least five days a week” opening or you will lose funding. Why would any school opt for a more strict regulation? What would that be – 7 days a week? Many districts were offering a possibility of 4 days of school every 10 days to allow to have half capacity in classrooms and 1 day out of 5 for deep cleaning. That’s off the table with the governor and board of education requiring “at least five days a week” of open schools.

Additionally, there are no statements about schools closing in FL if there are positive cases. Why would we trust that would happen? Our president literally just mandated that hospitals now report data to his administration instead of the CDC! How could we possibly trust that positive cases at school will be reported (to who?) and addressed appropriately when there is no plan in place. Are they informing parents when a child/teacher/staff member test positive? When? Are they being sent home early? For how long? Absolutely no details.

And the online learning is garbage. Mandatory busy work. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is. If you haven’t experienced it, I’d encourage you to talk to people who have done it. Every single person in my household has been in tears over the e-learning, both parents and children. And while I am highly educated, I have no idea how to help an 8 year-old write an essay, nor what the minimum requirements are. I am useless, for the most part. But have to read everything to the 5 year-old. The assignments were absurd. Full science experiments with no supplies. Full art projects with no supplies. Multiple apps. Assignments requiring printers, scanners, photographs, uploading, etc. Photographs of children engaging in physical activity with a parent-signed activity log for PE credit. Watch this boring video. Answer these quiz questions. Make a model of your neighborhood out of boxes. Write an essay. Watch another video. Follow a different link to find the assignment and then another link to watch another video and then another link to upload your product. I could go on and on.

@Cupcake As a concerned and obviously engaged parent, what would be your best scenario for education in Florida for the Fall? I really empathize with all the concerns and all the frustrations of parents of school aged children.

@Cupcake Science is certainly difficult without lab equipment, so maybe science classes should still be held at school, or kids just don’t take those classes for a year. Like I said, I’m not very concerned if kids get a little behind, as long as they continue to learn something and not lose what they already have learned.

Are you signed up with online, or is it the teachers the kids had in school just giving out assignments?

Good point about the federal funding, but also let’s remember federal funds only account for 10% of the funds for K-12 education. If half, most, or all kids are home, then that saves a lot of money not being paid to teachers. Some of the money would have to be allocated to unemployment.

I do think there is still sinister intentions with the whole thing. The Republicans have wanted to cut school funding for years, so I’m with you on having my antennae up regarding the intentions of the people in charge right now.

More strict means staggered schedules, shorter school day, only certain classes at school and others online. Strict meaning more concern for covid and less contact time with each other.

With my daughter’s middle school online classes, only two of the teachers actually did a few videos of themselves conducting a class which was them lecturing as if they were actually in class, complete with their notes.

Spanish was some website where they had flash cards and it’s either right or it’s wrong, and if you didn’t put an accent mark, there was no partial credit, it was just wrong. In real life, you’d get partial credit for that. Math was Khan Academy videos. History, in addition to the teacher doing her occasional lectures from her deck, it would be some YouTube videos and you had to answer the accompanying questions (what were 3 causes of the Civil War, for example). English, there were book chapters and you’d have to answer two or three questions about the chapters.

Still, my daughter said she prefers online over going to school. She’s seeing her friends and she’s enjoying not having to jump out of bed by 7 to be in school by 7:30.

@jca2 7:30? That’s just torture.

@JLeslie: I know. Even for me, an adult, it would not be do-able and I wouldn’t take a job where I had to be there at 7:30, because I know I couldn’t be up and there by that time.

@jca2 How was the math? Do you feel like your daughter continued learning new math lessons? Are you still doing any of the learning during the summer for any of the subjects?

@JLeslie: I am really bad at algebra so my help with this subject was limited. I had a friend helping her but I think she is going to need remedial math help whenever school returns to in-class learning. We’re not doing any school work over the summer.

My son tried a year of homeschooling a few years ago and it was very difficult for him. It was for 8th grade. He needs the structure that a physical classroom gives you to help him concentrate. He could not focus on the schoolwork home.

He’s currently taking two credit recovery courses this summer and the only thing that’s helping him right now is the support he gets from his girlfriend.

Online classes aren’t for everyone and it can become very lonely.

@Jonsblond I think I would have been a terrible at home student, and I did not like school. My biggest complaint was having to be there early, so @jca2‘s comment really hit home for me. I am a great in-person learner. I pay attention, I take great notes, I am very successful at it. If I have to read on my own or find time to watch a class, I am not such a great student. As an adult I can make myself do these things, but as a kid I would have been horrible at it probably.

@janbb It’s a very good question and a good pivot from my long rant. I think it’s too late for a good plan for Fall. Schools should have been planning for months about how to do synchronous learning for those who can and asynchronous learning for kids who need that (due to technology or parent availability or whatever). I think they should get lectures from their teachers and engage with their classmates. But assignments should be minimal, just what’s actually needed. Cut out busy work. Get daily mental health and resilience lessons. Make sure all families have the technology they need to be successful. Buy tech in bulk and offer it to low income families for free and others at a discount.

I’m also not opposed to picking up a weekly packet and having my kids fill them out. It would save us hours of online frustration. But it makes more work for the teachers and I understand that. I’d be happy to grade it myself and then submit.

But, let’s be honest. Do away with grades and assessments this year. Teach the minimum and fill the rest in with soft skills – communication, mental health, resilience, socialization, volunteering/service, etc. Learn about viruses and public health measures.

Disclaimer: my advice is relevant for elementary age children. My oldest is an adult and I don’t know how to manage all of this at the middle and high school levels. I have lots of ideas about college/university, though.

@jca2 My kids don’t qualify for buses even though we live a 15–20 minute drive from school. We have to get up at 5:50 for school. Boy are we happy to sleep in until 7am. :)

@Cupcake At the high school level I would think the children are able to do so much of the work on their own that the difficulties for parents in term of content would be less of an issue. With young children parents really become the teachers. My mom could not have helped me with math past the 5th grade.

I wasn’t even thinking in terms of dealing with online anything can be frustrating, I know what that is like. Navigating websites, and things just not functioning as one would expect or hope. There is something to be said for old fashioned pencil and paper.

My friends who home school say that regular school is a lot of busy work, and the school day is much longer than necessary. It sounds to me like you have the right idea to trim down expectations. Does the state of Florida require a lot of grades and assessments for homeschoolers? Or, is that just for people who are doing school online that actually results in a high school diploma at the end?

@JLeslie I don’t know FL homeschool requirements. We “homeschooled” for a week during spring break as a transition to e-learning and it was the best week. It was all downhill from there. I just don’t have the bandwidth to deal with homeschool while finishing my dissertation, so it’s not really on the table for us.

I heard this morning that FL is not allowing local schools to decide when to close due to COVID exposure and also that they cannot mandate that any student be tested (don’t know if that’s also true for teachers/staff). That is highly concerning to me.

In districts without our level of heat and humidity, schools can open windows and rely less on AC, which is a transmission factor. We can’t do that here.

Kids are not going to be eating in the cafeteria, which I think is a good move. But they’ll be eating in the classroom at their desks, obviously without their masks. There are a number of issues here – food sensitivities/allergies, food selection, teacher/staff exposure, when do the teachers and staff eat, etc. I think the social distancing and mask wearing all falls apart during mealtime.

Additionally, there are a vast number of mask exceptions in FL. Under 8, if it may interfere with instruction, etc. This is also concerning.

@JLeslie I agree that older students can generally navigate their learning. There are a number of exceptions. I think it’s also not very healthy (mental or physical) to sit at a home desk all day long without interaction. For months. The younger kids are running around and getting their activity in, would be my guess. I don’t know what the older ones are doing. And they have greater socialization needs, which maybe they can meet through group chats and video. But I also think this underestimates the environmental (computer, desk, stillness, family distraction, adults generally unable to help) and the same tech and learning issues (busy work, multiple websites/apps, requiring supplies such as printer, art stuff, science stuff, paper, pens, scanners, etc).

What’s happened with my middle school-aged daughter since the shutdown is that she’s been mostly staying up all night playing video games with her friends and then she goes to sleep in the morning and sleeps half of the day. They all do it, the little circle of friends she mostly is in touch with. I check on her during the night because I’m home more and so my sleep schedule is more casual now, and so I know what she’s up to. I don’t like that she’s going to sleep when I’m waking up but it’s summer now so the parents of her friends are just letting them enjoy it without a lot of scheduling.

We’re both enjoying our summer now, more than any other where we would be rushing to work and camp and then the evening pick up, rushing home, doing laundry for the dirty towels and suits, getting dinner ready, getting to bed for the next day.

For kids when there is going to be in school learning, I don’t know how the little kids would do with staying in the room all day long. Little kids need to get their energy out with recess and going to gym and going to art and walking to the cafeteria. I get that it’s safer, and I totally agree with that, but I just don’t know how it would be expected to be successful. Middle and high schoolers are more sedentary so I would think for them it might not be terrible. It might be boring to not have a change of scenery though.

That’s interesting @jca2 – kind of the flip argument but really both saying the same things.

I agree that in a strange way, this is a less stressful/busy summer. I just wish we could go to the beach.

We’re also saving a ton of money by not doing any summer camps (not that we had the money, but we’re not going in debt this summer).

@Cupcake: Yes, we’re saving a couple thousand with not having camp this year, either. Our friends, the twins’ mom, said the other day “I just saved about two thousand dollars so far, because it would already be the end of the first semester of camp.” I think a lot of people without kids or who stayed home as parents have no clue how much these things cost. I used to pay about 1500 a month for day care and that was over 10 years ago.

We can go to the beach here, pools, lake, so that’s what makes it nice. Today I’m dropping my daughter off at friends’ pool and I’m going to go shopping, and pick her up later. Other days they come to visit us at the lake. The only stress for me now is on the two days I have to go to the office, waking up and getting out on time to be on time for work.

^That’s exactly why I stayed home as a parent. We couldn’t afford for me to work, if that makes sense.

It is much easier for older children to interact with others right now through online gaming and video chat. This is how my son and friends spend their time as well. I feel so bad for the parents who have little ones who can’t do this.

@Cupcake A friend of mine sent me a Q&A sheet from her school district, she lives in Jacksonville, and I think it was different than some of the things you stated. I’d be happy to message it to you or email it if you want to compare it to your school district, it might be useful. I think one thing on it was plexiglass shields for the desks. I don’t remember if that was on her sheet or another.

I think if the desks are 6 ft apart and kids are eating its minimal risk, but really in school there is risk all around, because kids are touching things and touching their face, mask or not. I ate at my desk all through elementary school and I can’t imagine eating in a cafeteria at a very young age.

I didn’t realize there won’t be recess. I think there should be recess for young children. They can play games with low touch and run.

I think there should be a half day option where kids leave before lunch or come in after lunch, no need for recess. When I was a kid there was the option of half day or full day kindergarten, I think that could work well for older kids too, and supplement with some online work at home.

Meanwhile, I’m in no way saying what I think you should do. I can’t even imagine all you are dealing with regarding making these decisions.

I think it was the recent article about the super-spreader in the Israeli school that it said it was the younger children who were more obedient, and the teenagers were the ones harder to control because it’s in their nature to be defiant. I found that interesting.

What I have been telling friends is don’t worry that your kids might have a little less learning this year, try to remove that stress. During this year a lot of things are going to be figured out, and it will all most likely get much better over time.

I have a very close girlfriend who homeschools her children, she always has, and if you would want to message or talk to her I’d be happy to put you in touch if you want to consider an alternate to the current options in front of you. Her oldest is in college. She’s an accountant and her husband is an engineer, he works at a university.

@jca2 I think what is so interesting about your daughters sleep schedule is how teens probably naturally are on such a very different schedule than what we force them into.

@JLeslie and @jca2 I agree that we force adolescents into unnatural schedules for school.

@JLeslie I have heard some of the preventive measures Jacksonville is putting in place, including plexiglass shields. I don’t know what I think about them yet. Are they being cleaned daily?

I am not saying there won’t be recess, but there’s no commitment that it will happen. And there won’t be any playground use (I don’t know that public playgrounds are open in FL anyway – I think the one by us has been taped off for months).

I like the half day or hybrid (4 days out of 10) options but they are not on the table in most any district.

I’m getting to the point where I think schools should generally be closed with remote learning, teachers can teach/lecture from their homes or their empty classroom, and children whose parents have to be at work in the day get some level of in-person education in school. Cafeteria staff can still make and provide food, either with parent pick up or some kind of delivery or drop off locations. I think the big move is how to best utilize counselors, social workers and librarians. They can be critical in all of this.

My city’s teachers union is demanding virtual learning for the fall. This is from today:

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/local_schools/madison-teachers-union-demands-fully-virtual-start-to-school-year/article_51e70df9-e7bb-5624-b3be-805701a07dd9.html

I came across this article on temporary desk barriers for when the kids eat lunch. https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-03-13/taiwan-school-uses-dividers-during-lunch-to-counter-coronavirus