Is there any reason Joe Biden should not debate Donald Trump?

I think it would be entertaining. But the Dems are desperate to avoid it. They really aren’t letting Biden do anything that isn’t fully scripted and preferable pre-recorded. If he had to debate Trump, Trump would twist him in knots. Biden isn’t all there, mentally. He can barely do any public speaking events without totally goofing up. To go with that, the Dems have supported the defunding of police and supported the violent protests, and Biden has echoed that support. Putting that out in public would make him look like he didn’t support law and order at all. Additionally, the Dems have shown zero actual plans for “fixing” things. Their entire campaign is nothing other than “hate Trump”. The few things they really have pushed have been so ludicrous that they fall apart when you start to ask some basic questions. Biden would have nothing to actually fall back on. And as I said, he isn’t good at thinking or talking on his feet.

I agree. I’d hate to miss the two of them debating. But I cannot imagine it happening. I just hope it will. Now what is his campaign slogan again? It’s hilarious.

Maybe virtual debate is possible?

Andrew Yang says that Biden will clobber Trump in any debate. When Trump goes off script, he tends to spout nonsense. It is hard to imagine him turning in a good performance.

I see no reason not to do it.

Wait. Biden is scared? That is news to me. Are you guys just making up shit again and hoping people believe it?

I dont think Biden is scared. I think his underlings are quite concerned and so is Pelosi. No script could mean a DISASTER.

Like many of you I found a summary of Biden speaking and it is really quite disturbing. Let me know if you want the link.

Sure post the link. I just watched a hour of Trump on TV today so it better be good.

https://youtu.be/z_wlQZ5N_2k

Trump has one big disadvantage now that he did not have in 2016. He could make a lot of false promises then, but now he has a record of not delivering. Biden should emphasize Trump’s failures.

@Aster You posted a 5 minute clip that had all of Biden’s “Gaffes”. Heck you could tape me all day long, and you’d have hours of my gaffes and mistakes. I thought you were going to post a speech where he bumbled, went off on tangents, forgot what he was saying or just stood there.
Trump has thousands of hours of mispronunciation’s, made up words, double talk, lies, etc.

@chyna well alright. If you think Biden’s mental status is equal or close to Trump’s there should be zero problem with getting him to debate w/Trump. Which is great for me at least because I’d love to hear it ! And your gaffes , dozens of hours of them, don’t matter because you’re not running for President.

Again. Where is Biden running from Trump? Show me proof. Actual proof. And the alien DNA doctor doesn’t count.

It would be like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

He doesn’t need to debate him. Here is NPR polls for states that would vote for Biden !

Biden on paper has all the electoral votes needed to win.

Trump is his own worst enemy and killing Americans every day !

I want a debate.. Trump circle-jerks passing a Alzheimer test. Please let there be a debate.

Still waiting Aster….. Breitbart doesn’t count.

I’ve heard arguments that debates should be eliminated, or at least their structure rethought considerably, but it’s not because of any particular candidates debating each other—it’s because the way debates function (in the US at least), they wind up being more about aesthetics than substance, and that’s a bad way to make decisions about who is best suited for the job of President.

First, Biden doesn’t need to debate Trump. He’s winning, at least according to most of the polls, including the Trump friendly ones.

Second, debates have become a waste of time and money. My main memory of the last ones is the one where Trump stalked Clinton all over the stage, not what either one of them said. I just listened to one of Trump’s latest interviews. I don’t think the Trump team really wants him to debate anyone, either, to be honest. He’s got more to lose than Biden, in my mind, with his tendency to go off on tangents about things not related to anything. It may appeal to his base but won’t work and isn’t working on the general population today.

Sure Biden makes gaffes. We all do. I can tangle my tongue in the most benign, friendly conversation, so I don’t sweat the gaffes as much as I do the irrationality Trump often displays. His team will go out of their way to paint Biden as the one who doesn’t want to do a debate, and that’s probably true since, as I noted, from all indications he’s winning, but since Trump’s teams’ main goal is to protect their candidate and present him as a rational, deeply informed man of substance, they have more to lose than Team Biden. To be honest, I’d kinda like to see them debate, but probably not for the reasons his supporters want a debate. For my own amusement, which is a bad reason to want to waste airtime, peoples’ time, and the candidates time.

It would be a mistake on Biden’s part, and here’s the reason why. At this point it no longer matters how badly Trump fks up in public. There is nothing left for him to say or do that can accentuate his firmly established disgrace of his office and impeccable reputation as embarrassing magnet for ridicule. In other words, there is absolutely no advantage to debating Trump for Biden unless he is willing to behave in a manner as crude and tasteless as the fool himself—a task suitable to the crudest of standup comics. A proper debate would be between Trump and Andrew Dice Clay.

Trump makes a lot of gaffes also. Sarah Cooper has made a career out of it. Link

I don’t see, any issues.

I don’t care either way. If they debate each side will be sure their candidate won the debate. I wouldn’t mind some long interviews if they don’t debate so we know what they are planning the next four years.

^I agree with interviews. It would be more interesting to me than a debate, where, lately, the debates have gone to name calling and not really answering questions.

I could see Trump, trying to bully Biden. Try to make him show his slight speech impediment. Although, it would be just a bully tactic.
Biden, if he can hold up to that, should dominate Trump…

I made an error calling Joe’s mental statements “gaffes.” Saying ” Nathaniel Nathaniel Nathaniel” is in no way a gaffe. Saying, “Mitsubishi Mitsubishi” to those attending towns halls is not a gaffe. I’m afraid it goes a lot deeper than that. I suppose most people on here do that too? I doubt he’ll say those things during the debates should the left be unsuccessful in canceling them. That would be a shock as an answer to a question regarding the economy. He will be briefed and told “do not say “Nathaniel, Joe !”

@johnpowell I dont provide “proof” because nobody who is dead set against Trump would say, ” ok; thanks for providing proof.” It would always be, ” that is not proof ” even in a video. If I had a video of Pelosi announcing ” debates should be canceled” you’d simply say it was doctored. So I dont do that.

\Democratic strategists and supporters of Vice President Joe Biden are urging him not to debate President Donald Trump in the lead-up to Election Day, citing Trump’s publicity stunts and disregard for the rules in 2016. Meanwhile Biden backers, including some conservatives, applauded the University of Notre Dame and the University of Michigan for cancelling their scheduled debates over COVID-19 concerns.

Former White House Press Secretary Joe Lockhart joined several Democratic Party strategists in bluntly advising Biden, “whatever you do, don’t debate Trump.” Speaking on CNN Saturday, Lockhart said Trump shouldn’t be given another platform which will enable him to “repeat lies,” which he said occurred in the 2016 debates against Hillary Clinton.

https://www.newsweek.com/supporters-urge-joe-biden-not-debate-trump-applaud-hosts-canceling-over-covid-19-concerns-1522178

” Speaking on CNN Saturday, Lockhart said Trump shouldn’t be given another platform which will enable him to “repeat lies.” lol What a lame excuse. They all lie and Lockhart knows it.

@Aster I mean, no politician lies…..(sarcasm.) haha!

Here’s a list of Trump’s lies about COVID-19

He’s the _Energizer Bunny” of lies about Coronavirus ! He just doesn’t stop.

“The coronavirus would weaken “ ‘when we get into April, in the warmer weather—that has a very negative effect on that, and that type of a virus.’ ” – - – Still going up. Not down.

Yeah, Biden should avoid debating Trump because everyone will see that his cognitive state is somewhere between “not-all-there” and full-blown dementia. Biden has nothing to gain in a debate, so strategically, it makes sense to avoid it if possible.

I would love to see two senile septuagenarians go at it.

If debates were substantive arguments about policy, I’d have more regard for them, but they don’t seem to be that anymore. They’re just entertainment at this point.

Here is a real journalist interviewing Trump.

@LostInParadise “Biden should emphasize Trump’s failures.”

You mean like doing political favors to benefit his family? oh wait.
Or sexually assaulting women? oh wait.
Or threatening to cut Social Security and Medicare? oh wait.
Or continuing to expand the offshoring of jobs? oh wait.
Or supporting the endless wars? oh wait.
Or selling out to big business/banks and participating in the swamp? oh wait.
Or his handling of race issues? oh wait.
Or his handling of law/order issues? oh wait.
Or his handling of immigration? oh wait.

I wish you luck with Biden. The DNC couldn’t have rigged it for a candidate with worse bona fides…

If he’s smart (and he’s not), Trump will run to Biden’s left just like he did to Clinton.

Biden’s going to pick a neoliberal (or Fauxgressive) VP because he cares more about obstructing progressivism than he does about defeating Trump.

@KNOWITALL I found the op-ed from Lockhart to be a ruse. To claim you are giving Trump another platform to spread lies from just shows how desperate they are. If you are in a debate and your opponent just opens up with out and out lies, he just gave you the win, if you are anywhere near your worth in debating. You identify the lies, show them for what they are with facts and you make him have to walk back his words. The problem for the Dems is that (a) Biden isn’t any good at debates, (b) he couldn’t tell a fact from a shoe horn if they were labeled, and© he couldn’t put it all together enough to avoid looking like a putz. But then, Lockhart knows all that so he wants to say something that blames Trump and requires no facts…just accusations. That is, after all, what the Dems (and their propagandists) have devolved into.

LOL

Exactly! The man hasn’t the sense to read his prepared speech in advance. The President of the United States cannot recognize the word “Yosemite”? There’s no point to decrying his unfamiliarity with the park. He apparently has never read a comic book or watched a Warner Brothers cartoon. It is indeed a crackup to hear anyone proclaim Trump’s shortcomings the invention of liberals or Democrats. Biden need not debate Trump to prove him an inept and illiterate fool. Joe could sleep through the debate and not utter a word with absolute certainty that our fool will talk himself into an embarrassing hole.

Biden said today that he was perfectly willing to let America judge his physical and mental fil, uh, pleb, fhil uhbb

LOL

LOLOL

Yeah, not being able to pronounce “Yosemite” is pretty bad. But talking to recorded people? Twice?!? C’mon. THAT is why the Dems don’t want Biden to be in a live debate with Trump. He can’t deal with the concept of recorded people when they try to nurse him along. Trying to think on his feet would not end well.

Wow how petty can you get?

@chyna…me or @johnpowell who I was taking my cue from?

@stanleybmanly “Joe could sleep through the debate and not utter a word with absolute certainty that our fool will talk himself into an embarrassing hole.”

Weren’t people saying the same thing in 2016?

You @seawulf575

@chyna Ahh…so it’s okay when someone that wants to ridicule Trump does it. That’s not petty. Only when they ridicule a Dem. got it. Just wanted to know what rules you live by.

Just thinking let’s do a debate and have the majority of the questions be about the bible. Please, pretty please. Trump won’t know shit. He just went after Biden’s religious beliefs? WTF?! Hoping the Catholics who have been sticking with Trump see this as a reason to leave Trump.

Yeah, Trump’s religious pandering is probably his most cringeworthy trait, which is really saying something. If he were put to the test, I’m sure his knowledge would be more than lacking. There’s no part of it that seems even the least bit sincere, but he knows what to say to rile up his base. And denying and doubting that Democrats can be anything other than Christian-hating atheists is a popular tactic among Republicans.

I can’t think of a less useful use of a debate’s time than watching two conservative scumbags trying to pretend they have a deeper understanding of the Bible than the other guy, during a global pandemic on the precipice of the worst global economic depression in the history of mankind.

@gorillapaws I’d want it to be surprise questions. I usually am completely against religion related questions, including the all famous, “do you believe in evolution?”

Trump’s people will believe Trump won the debate on all current events topics like the pandemic, economy, taxes, deficit, healthcare, and on and on. Possibly, Trump not knowing a Bible verse will show them he is not a Christian at all. They actually believe he is a religious Christian. I have asked friends, and they believe it.

I want to know Biden’s plans for the future too, maybe some people will be convinced to move over to him, but having the Religious Right stay home is helpful too. I know several people that look like they will be sitting it out who voted for Trump last time, and who are Fox News Republicans. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.

@JLeslie You know that kid who didn’t read the book and bullshitted his way through the report in front of the class in elementary school? Trump has been doing that his entire life. He knows how to weaponize religion against his opponents. He is very comfortable pretending to talk about subjects that he’s clueless in. He would absolutely win that question.

If they were to hypothetically surprise Trump with some specific Biblical question that Trump wasn’t familiar with, this is what Trump would do:

1. He’d pivot the question into a broad, very generalized point that he could speak to that appeals to the religious right.

2. He’d describe how that idea was under attack by the liberal media and/or the Democratic Party.

3. He’d hammer Biden on it in a vicious (likely personal way).

How about just ask them to quote their favorite three bible verses? Or, name three favorite people from the bible and why. I really doubt Trump could do it.

You’re right that Trump bullshits his way through. I was one of those kids who hated to read. I took tests on books I had never read. It’s why I sucked at history and hated most of English class. When it came to test time the bullshitting was impossible if the question was asked right.

I agree he could try to pivot, but on some things I’m not so sure the pivoting would work. Most Evangelicals know the bible up, down, and sideways. He might possible offend Catholics if he continued to go after Biden, because Biden will be able to talk about baptizing his kids and the names of the Priests at the churches he attended. I doubt Trump has been in a church except for a wedding.

You could be right it could backfire. His devout followers are crazy. He is like a God to them.

@JLeslie “How about just ask them to quote their favorite three bible verses?”

Trump might say something like: “I don’t have a favorite verse. I like the whole thing. But you know, they’re trying to take the Bible away from schools. They’re arresting kids who try to have Bible study class in school. It’s horrible what they’re doing to Christians in this country. America should be Christian, unlike Demensia Joe. I mean what kind of a father raises his son to do drugs, sleep with prostitutes? That’s not Christian. I think it’s wrong. Wrong and sad. Very sad.”

”name three favorite people from the bible and why.”

Trump might say something like: “Jesus is my favorite person in the Bible. I like Mary and John too, but Jesus is the most important. We have forgotten how important Jesus is in this country. It’s really sad. The media won’t even mention Jesus’ name anymore. Dementia Joe over here doesn’t act like he believes in Jesus. He may say he does, but if he raised his kids in a home that believed in Jesus, then why would his son be sleeping with his dead brother’s wife? That’s not Christian.”

And Biden’s responses” If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. Genesis 38:8ESV /
He would also talk about trump buying prostitutes. Biden can’t control what his son does, but can control himself.

@chyna Biden will be lucky to remember what office he’s running for. He’s not going to recall obscure quotes from Genesis. He’s going to loose his composure and get angry/defensive.

Meh, maybe.

Biden could quote his famous, “We believe that all men and women are created by go, you know, the THING. The we the people.”

@gorillapaws Biden has already made that error once.

The truth is that any debate with Trump as a participant must by definition be some iteration of the word “travesty”. There is absolutely no depth to the man. There is nothing positive to be discovered or revealed. The best that can be hoped for is that he might fail in his persistent habit of embarrassing his country or publicly disgracing himself before the world. Biden might bumble along, and on a good day humiliate the poor dummy by simply treating the fool in the same manner as Trump does the world. But then, where is the honor in crushing a moron?

^Honor, in politics?

That’s just the point. When even the pretense of honor is non extant, where is the utility in debate. What is to be gained from a confirmed inveterate lying narcissist know nothing parading his disabilities in front of us—-AGAIN?

Making fun of Biden when Trump can’t pronounce “Yosemite?”

Well, seriously, to the original question. No, Biden should not debate Trump. Biden should get a medical exemption. He is in no shape, mentally or physically, for such a task, and whoever his VP choice is is whom American voters need to consider as the next president.

I heard an interesting tactic Trump could use on Biden if they did debate. Early on in the debate, mention something very specific in the conversation. Then, 10 or 15 minutes later say something about “what we were talking about earlier” but not be specific. Joe would be completely at sea and would probably get angry.

Trump would have told three different answers (lies) to any single question he is given.

@Tropical Willie Even lies would show a functioning mind. Biden would be a blathering idiot. Put him on stage and let him speak for himself if you don’t fear a total meltdown.

I actually kinda do. Out of concern and respect, lets assume that most Americans know he is no longer mentally able to participate in debate or negotiating. A vote for Biden is understood as a vote for Kamala Harris, or a vote against Trump. Nothing more. Nothing less.

@Tropical_Willie As I said before, you should be all for the debates then. If a person involved in a debate lies, then they have just handed their opponent the ammunition to be used against themselves. Point out the lies, list the facts, and you have made your opponent lose the debate. But I suspect you know Biden would get crushed in a live debate. You know he is not all there mentally. The only thing he has is a (D) next to his name so that makes him a god in your eyes.

You see all the people that agree with @seawulf575 and @Yellowdog !

I don’t.

Poor Yellowdog is tying himself in knots trying to show how much respect and concern he has for Joe Biden. All while trying desperately to sow a seed of doubt in our minds. Isn’t working. I’d actually find it amusing if the ultimate outcome wasn’t so important. Joe Biden will be just fine in any debate. The fact you’re so desperate to sow doubt rather shows that you know it.

@Tropical_Willie I find that hillarious. A bunch of people that will give you a GA if you say nothing than “Trump sucks!!!” and you figure that is proof of opinion? I call it a group of demented minds feeding off each other. I’m good with not getting many GAs. I really don’t care what others think of me or my answers. I will give my point of view and defend it.

@Yellowdog I agree precisely that more votes will be cast against Trump than for Biden or Harris. Clearly this is the accurate reason Republican defections currently crowd the airwaves. I have never seen anything like it. The most extraordinary achievement of Trump regarding his destruction of the conservative brand is the all but unanimous elimination of tolerance from the disaffected intellectual component of the conservative list. It doesn’t matter if Biden secretly hides in a basement and drools round the clock. As with those conservative defectors, I believe this election is no longer about Biden’s negatives. We’ve all seen enough to understand that an opposing candidate is at this point unnecessary compared to the dire urgency of eliminating this country’s greatest embarrassment on record.

@seawulf575 Of course you care. Otherwise you wouldn’t have even responded to Tropical Willie’s comment. You give yourself away in so many small, and big ways. I’m sure your buddy will be along shortly to like your post.

Your sense of humor shows your real feeling !

Sorry you saw “Trump sucks” that is not what I said but anything said against your hero you see as “Trump SUCKS” !

I have no problem at all with pitting Biden against anyone in a debate. I just don’t think it is ethical. We can assume a vote for Biden is merely a vote against Trump, or a vote for Kamala Harris, But we can put Biden on against Trump in a debate. Yea I could be wrong and he might be brilliant. Only those close to him really know.

@AlaskaTundrea I don’t consider my GA count on any comment I leave as justification as to whether it is a valid comment or not. I don’t care whether you believe it or not. I recognize that as a sane rational person, I am in the minority on these pages. But let’s put it to the test: Will I get a GA before @Tropical_Willie? I mean look at the comment he made that I last responded to. It had no substance at all, is petty and childish, but he already has 2 GAs. That tells me more about the people giving the GA than his comment.

Well. Even as inept as the Democratic party is, in terms of POTUS strategy, I have to think that they would assume that a debate was inevitable. I doubt that they would have a candidate, that couldn’t keep up with Trump. Not that that is hard…
I also feel that Biden’s mental health, is greatly underestimated.

Biden, will be prepared, and likely follow the script. Trump, will wing it, because of his false sense of belief in himself.

As long as Biden doesn’t shit the bed, he should have the advantage…..

@MrGrimm888 You give a lot of credit to the DNC where it doesn’t seem to be warranted. And you make a gross assumption that the debates are inevitable. They don’t let Joe talk in person any more than he absolutely has to because they know how bad he is. They will (and are already) try to blame Trump that a debate would be a way for him to lie. That is the excuse. It makes no sense at all, but then their loyal followers don’t really deal in making sense. If they did, they wouldn’t be following the DNC.

Trump is your hero for getting all the liberals and anyone that drinks clean water and breathes smog free air.

Do you enjoy your Gen-X with oil sludge or sewer water ?

I think the point is missed that as long as Trump is willing to talk, the smart path is exactly the one of clamming up. The guarantee is there that he will fulfill the Confucian parable. He will indeed “Speak and remove all doubt.” It takes no genius to understand that no opponent of Trump will ever inflict the assured damage he brings upon himself merely through flapping his yap. Who disagrees?

Again, Biden need not debate Trump. Were I in his shoes, I would merely play a tape of his utterances in the last 4 years. Biden need only sit there and let the drone of preposterous lies and vindictive nonsense roll along literally for hours. What could he possibly say or do that would top the drool from the mouth of the jackass?

It would be nice if a debate would calm the Trumpers down. Assure them we aren’t changing America into a communist state. What’s going to happen if and when Biden wins? I have people saying they will fight to the end. I’m afraid there will be riots and shooting. I hope not.

@JLeslie The only thing that will calm the Trumpers down is him being re-elected and declaring himself President forever, until Donnie Jr and Eric are president and Vice President.

The Trumpers want all moderates and anyone not a skinhead Neo-Nazi to disappear

@JLeslie ” Assure them we aren’t changing America into a communist state.” How can you say that when every plan that has been proposed by the Dem candidates was socialistic in nature? The New Green Deal, universal health care, universal college…even their push for a bloated central government…are all examples. If you read through the DNC draft 2020 platform, it is rife with pushes for all unions all the time, gun control, defunding police, reparations for slavery, restricting political speech, and more…in addition to the things mentioned before. ALL of these are pretty standard fare for every Socialist nation that ever was. So when they are pretty much bragging about their socialist plans, how can you even try to assuage any fears by saying they aren’t going to turn us into a socialist nation?

@JLeslie I hope it doesn’t get to that point. Truly.

It is already a socialist nation whether you believe it or not. And it is the fact that it IS a socialist nation that the much despised liberal bastions finance the rabidly resistant residents of the hinterlands—places that would shrivel and die minus those social security checks and medicare benefits. Socialism doesn’t creep into this society as some devious communist plot. It is forced on us (like it or not) as the remedy to the ravages of predatory capitalism.

@seawulf575 . In my post you responded to, I called the DNC inept. I fail to see, how that is giving them “credit.”

As far as your comments on “bloated” government.
Part of the bloated government, was a pandemic task force. Which turns out, would have likely been quite helpful, given that we are in the midst of a pandemic. But. Trump did away with the task force, and are suffering greatly, as a result.

As far as socialism, there are already many aspects of it, in our government. And they help many Americans.

I will not even dignify, your communism nonsense, with a response. That’s lunacy, and you know it…

@seawulf575 _”...The New Green Deal, universal health care, universal college…”

Biden/Harris/DNC rejected all of it. This is the most regressive the party’s ever been in my lifetime. The only thing they’re interested in funding is Wall Street, Big Tech, Big Pharma, Big Agra, the MIC, etc.

Oh they’ll pay lip service to people dumb enough to believe that they’re trying, but make no mistake, their #1 priority is to firewall against a progressive shift. Beating Trump is a distant second. Trump, Biden and Harris have way more in common than Biden and AOC/Sanders in terms of their policy. And Sanders/AOC have way more in common with Trump on policy than they do with Mao, so let’s not lose perspective, or get hyperbolic.

Bernie/AOC would be moderates/conservatives in many other European countries, and Biden/Harris would be extremists on the right.

@gorillapaws I might agree with you, except when they actively say they support those things, you can’t ignore them out of hand. I absolutely believe Biden (and now Harris) is a puppet. Someone else is pulling his strings and speaking with his voice. But those people still want power. Yes, they could be saying what they think the radical left wants to hear, but they have to know that the radical left is taking over the Dem party. Just like with Antifa and the BLM protesters, they created something they couldn’t control. All was going good until they started attacking the homes of the mayors who supported them. Pretty much the same thing here. So either the puppet-master is a complete idiot or they are willing to throw this country away just to be on top when it goes down. And I’m getting the feeling it isn’t about what’s good for the country or how they can make money…its all about how we can destroy this country.

Once again, you don’t know a radical leftist from a mudflap. In fact the only way you can conceive of either Biden or Harris as hardline leftists is if you yourself are a rabid right winger. Both are centrists, or rather they would be considered centrists back in the day when there were such things as moderate Republicans. Hell, Nixon was to the left of today’s Democratic party. It isn’t the left that pushes foam at the mouth radical claptrap, it’s your goose stepping know nothing wing nut bumpkins who lack the sense that God gives a goose—you know—the folks who tell you that Trump is a patriot and the muppets are communist infiltrators.

Both Biden and Harris have been compared to Reagan for political leanings in 1980.

@stanleybmanly I think the Sacbee would disagree with your assessment. Here’s a thought: being from SF, your entire view of the political spectrum is skewed WAY left. So someone that isn’t Lenin or Mao is centrist at worst. Maybe you need to get out more.

Wrong again. There is not one word in that article stating Harris a radical leftist. She is a liberal, not a Trotskyist. Unlike yourself, I have the scope of knowledge to know and RECOGNIZE the difference It doesn’t matter that you read if you don’t grasp the meaning of what you read. Here’s a thought. You may well be correct that where one lives affects his perspective. I got around plenty, which gave me the depth of understanding to choose this place. I’m also going to guess that wherever YOU are pretty much reflects your depth. Enjoy it.

@seawulf575 “So someone that isn’t Lenin or Mao is centrist at worst.”

You’re the one throwing around the “socialist” label at people who support capitalism in nearly all industries. I thought the furthest right one could move on the spectrum would be full-blown, completely unregulated, laissez faire capitalism like they have in Somalia. It turns out there’s an even more extreme position: “corporate socialism” where taxpayers fund private companies with their taxes when times get tough, instead of letting them fail. It sounds like that’s where you land? Privatize the profits for billionaires, but push the losses to taxpayers… God Bless America!

Biden doesn’t have a political position, except for that culled recently from Bernie Sanders.

The Squad, including Harris, are Marxists. Biden has adopted the Bernie Sanders model for his campaign, having none of his own, and Bernie Sanders is a Marxist and does not operate within a Capitalist framework.

The idea that any of these are Capitalists, you are buying what is being fed the bulk of the nation in order to convince regular Americans that these people are moderates.

So. Conservatives, seem to lack the concept that political ideology, is ever changing?

That’s what I have gathered from most political threads…

@Yellowdog “Biden doesn’t have a political position, except for that culled recently from Bernie Sanders.”

God I wish this were true. Unfortunately, he represents pretty much the opposite of Bernie his entire career. Kamala is a conservative corporatist (who played a progressive on TV for a while)—that’s why Wall St. loves her.

“The Squad, including Harris, are Marxists.”

It’s amazing how many falsehoods you manage to pack into so few words.
1. Harris isn’t in “The Squad” because she’s not a progressive.
2. Harris isn’t a Marxist. Wall Street loves her. That should tell you a lot.
3. “The Squad” aren’t Marxists. They support a mixed economy—as do most Americans.

Marxism means that 7-Eleven is owned by the government, that your local mechanic shop is owned by the government, that the Christian Bookstore is owned by the Government, that the country-club is owned by the government. NONE of that and the thousands of other examples are things “The Squad’ and Bernie want to convert to public ownership. They’re advocating for progressive taxation, WAY more more watered down than we used to have; it was 90% on the top bracket during Republican Eisenhower’s term. Just stop and reflect on that for a minute or two. A strong social-safety-net, and public investment in promoting opportunity.

I“m honestly not sure if you simply don’t understand the difference, or if you’re lying and deliberately conflating 2 different positions.

Oh and the country didn’t collapse back then either, we actually had one of the strongest periods of sustained growth in American history. Hard to fucking believe, right?

“The idea that any of these are Capitalists, you are buying what is being fed the bulk of the nation in order to convince regular Americans that these people are moderates.”

Biden isn’t a “moderate.” He’s a right-winger.

It’s absolutely dazzling how vapidly empty is conservative grasp here of reality. Biden and Harris as Marxists is so breathtaking an insult to basic truth that such mistakes cannot be deliberate. The wulf and dog simply do not know, and the repeated and constant demonstration of this is beyond distracting. It makes actual discussion impossible when such bottom line facts are distorted willy-nilly at the drop of a hat. Worse than frustrating, these bumps make me cringe with embarrassment for our canines, and it pisses me off that I am required to cut them slack. The most depressing aspect of this is that for all I know, it may not be their fault.

@stanleybmanly Let me put it this way, Stan, if Trump is a racist for four years because WS embrace/endorse him, then why shouldn’t Biden be considered Marxist when they literally endorse him across the board? Your team went for the lowest hanging fruit, so you should expect the Right to do the same.
But I will say that Biden isn’t pushing the Green New Deal, Medicare for all or defunding the police. Marxist socialists usually describe themselves as democratic socialists, like Biden has himself.
—————————————————————————-
Marxist Angela Davis endorsed Biden.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/return-to-normalcy-joe-biden-endorsed-by-marxist-terrorist-angela-davis-on-russian-state-television
——————————————————————————-
Bob Avakian, chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party USA (RCPUSA), has endorsed Joe Biden for president.

Mr. Avakian, who has led the party since 1979, says he doesn’t particularly like Mr. Biden, but that electing him is necessary for “the overthrow of this system, as the fundamental solution to the continuing horrors this system causes for the masses of humanity.”

That “system” is our self-governing republic with its constitutionally guaranteed rule of law, property rights, the freedoms of religion, speech, press and assembly, and free market economics. All of this has produced the freest, most prosperous and most generous nation in history. It’s got to go.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/aug/9/communists-approve-joe-biden-for-president/
—————————————————————————-
Vice President Joe Biden disparaged socialism while addressing the World Economic Forum in Switzerland on Wednesday, as his own political party finds itself with a self-described “democratic socialist” leading in some state polls.
https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/20/politics/joe-biden-davos-socialism/index.html

@KNOWITALL You know that the Washington Examiner (political falsehoods) is the equivalent of the National Enquirer (Gossip and Entertainment).

I stopped reading anything else after you used them as a source.

@KNOWITALL You must understand that the endorsement of Biden by an avowed Marxist such as Angela Davis does not make Biden a Marxist, any more than my endorsement of Biden makes me a democrat. I AM NOT a democrat, and would kick Biden to the curb in a heartbeat to vote for Angela Davis. But I AM NOT a communist. These are absolutely crucial distinctions that you folks don’t seem able to distinguish, but are are vital if our conversations are to make sense. It upsets me, because the folks who lean left here are often equally guilty when leveling charges of our fool as a fascist or a Nazi. He is neither. He could no more explain the difference between a fascist and a banana cream pie. A marxist is always a socialist, but a socialist is RARELY a marxist these days. I only wish to God that more of us here would read what Marx had to say, and why it is that his analysis of capitalism is the best and most internally consistent explanation of the accumulating difficulties confronting us.

@stanleybmanly I do understand, but I suggest taking the opportunity to educate people instead of demean them or get exasperated. You can’t go around calling people hicks from the redlands and telling them to mind their own business and leave the coasts out of arguments, when we all vote, when we all care, and when you actually need people to care if you want Trump out.

It’s frustrating to me because there are less than ten true conservatives here now, the rest were so turned off with the abuse and negativity, they left (another one yesterday.) So when @Yellowdog and @seawulf575 participate, understand that they care, they are interested and haven’t given up on learning or they wouldn’t engage. To me, that’s worthy of a little more respect, if you actually care about this country.

I will give you a compliment, and that is that you are the first liberal here who has admitted Trump is not a fascist or a Nazi. It’s such low brow, low-hanging fruit to continue to harp on for four plus years, that it’s just nice to actually hear, here of all places.

You are a decent soul and I believe you strive to be objective. But I am probably undeserving of your compliment. And that is that just because I understand that Trump is nobody’s fascist does not disqualify me from appreciating that he is every would be fascist’s dream of perfection. Admiration of Trump alone does not translate to an embrace of fascism, but as surely as my vote for Biden will be an alliance with democrats of assured plutocratic capitalist bonafides, support of the fool is the greatest hope of fascists since the lynching of il Duce.

@stanleybmanly It’s your personal vote, which I respect. No ill will, you are more than your politics haha!

By the way this was a interesting dinner topic tonight with family friends. :D Peace.

Am I missing something. Is it not possible, for any government, to cherry pick the pros, from every angle of politics, in order to get the best outcome, without being labeled?

It seems to me, that there are too many variables, to simply adhere, to a single type of government….

@MrGrimm888 In theory, they could. What is missing in that thought is human nature. “Government” is nothing but people in positions of making decisions. Most people in those positions are drawn by the power those positions offer. So they often make decisions based on what will give them the most power. In the case of the USA, they often pander to the people they believe will keep them in power and they make decisions that will add more power to themselves.

^I see your point….
However. Wouldn’t a reduction of the “bloated” government, make it easier for an even smaller amount of powerful people, to make themselves more powerful? Like reducing the power, of the EPA….

Why reduce the EPA when an executive order opens up National Parks to oil and gas extraction. People can look at pictures from the 1970’s and 1908’s if they want to see the parks. And who needs clean air and water, I mean everybody love drinking sludge and GenX and carbon tetra chloride in their water.

This is all possibly very true.

@MrGrimm888 When I talk about reducing bloated government, I’m talking about reducing not only the size, but the impact into our lives. And I am talking specifically about the federal government. I think the states are meant to control much more than they do. But when you have bloated government, not only do you have those people you elected in power, but you also have thousands of appointed individuals that were not elected. They all want their own fiefdom. So you end up with people that you have no control over, that exert lots of control over you.

I will be so happy when someone explains to me why it is always the people most desperately in need and most desperately DEPENDENT on the largesse of the federal government, who eagerly decry Federal Government. Piss poor crackers with no pavement in front of their homes whining about states rights and people in penthouses out to steal their guns?

@stanleybmanly You have a very warped view of America. If you don’t live in San Francisco with human shit on the sidewalk, you must live in some podunk town with no pavement on the streets. I suggest you get out more. Shit, even go on Google maps and open it up and take a virtual tour of the country. There are a lot of decent areas in this country that aren’t in your liberal stronghold. And let’s review recent history: Trump removes a lot of the regulations that were choking our economy and it flourishes. In other words, he gets the damn federal government out of the way and we do great. I will be so happy when someone explains to me why it is always the people that have no clue as to how things work that scream the loudest about common sense suggestions.

Hey, Seawulf575, I live in Wasilla. You know, where Sarah Palin lives. Does that mean my opinion suddenly becomes worthwhile to you? I mean, Sarah’s a neighbor, down the street. That must surely mean I live in the “real America”. See how silly that argument is?

@seawulf575 ”But when you have bloated government, not only do you have those people you elected in power, but you also have thousands of appointed individuals that were not elected. They all want their own fiefdom. So you end up with people that you have no control over, that exert lots of control over you.”

What about in a country that has privatized those “fiefdoms” and are now being run by monopolies? You have zero control in that situation; you can’t vote in someone to fix the problem. That’s even worse.

@seawulf575 Once again, I’ve allowed exasperation to get the better of me. I apologize. But I can tell you that my view of this country if warped, is at least authentically based on the fact that I live here. I require neither a google map nor an ignorant loudmouth to inform me that there are decent places in the country—some of them blissfully conservative. As for yourself, I notice that you once again equate Trump with common sense. And if you prefer to believe that we now flourish and are doing great, no amount of getting out nor banks of screens displaying google maps is going to help you appreciate or understand the country of which you claim me ignorant.

I would bet the farm that Biden requires absolutely no plan. There is not a single question to be asked that lacks an answer that can be steered in the length of a sentence to a creditable and pertinent indictment of Trump. It is just that simple. And if any of you don’t believe it, simply give it a try. Biden’s plan is “I am not Trump”. THAT is plan enough.

Snoopy doesn’t live in Alaska.

@gorillapaws What about countries that don’t have all those fiefdoms? Face it, we saw it big time under Obama where they created whole sections of government…new departments under czars…that were there for nothing other than creating new rules that justified their jobs. To privatize something, you have to have a profit being made somewhere. Who would pay to have someone do nothing but make your life more miserable?

Well someone is paying DeJoy to wreck the USPS !

While he profits from his stock & bond portfolio of $75,000,000 to $100,000,000 in competitors to the USPS like XPO Logistics.

@seawulf575 .
First off. There are many appointed positions, in the private sector, and in the government, which high paying/“justified.”
When I am talking about reducing the power, of the EPA, it seems to be hurting the environment, to help private corporations, more profitable. Lowering emission standards, and allowing resource harnessing, seem to be helping the uber wealthy corporations, at the detriment, of the nation.
When coastal cities start to flood, air/water quality becomes poor, it will be tax dollars (not the companies that profited) which will be needed to fix these issues.
It seems that your position, is to let the rich get richer, while the burden of dealing with the ramifications, will fall on the tax payers…
It will cost tax payers, trillions, to try to fix these issues, while the rich, get richer. Many of the rich, getting richer, will be powerful, unqualified, appointed people…

And. Those will be far more wealthy, and powerful, than the appointees, in the government.
Ultimately. The corporate appointed losers, will have more control over the government, and you, thanks to the weakened “bloated” government.
Is that the trade off, you are willing to accept?

I have trouble understanding, that logic…

Or. Am I misinterpreting, your stance?

You poor conservatives should be careful what you wish for. In the matter of debates you had best pray to God that Kamala does not get the opportunity to sink her teeth into Pence!

@MrGrimm888 I think where we end up disagreeing is over things like the EPA. Ever have to work under EPA rules? I have…intimately. When we talk about rolling back or getting rid of regulations, we need to look at specifics. What regulations, what were they, why were they, what are they, are there other regulations that fill the void, etc. are all questions that need to be addressed. I know that at one point, EPA regulations started to address wetlands. Now on the surface we all have a picture of natural habitats that we want to keep natural to help the flora and fauna survive without being stressed. But did you ever read some of the draconian definitions of “wetland” in those regs? I know a guy that wanted to build a shed on his property. He went to get the appropriate permits and that was when it came to light…he lived in a wetland. Why? Because the description of what qualified as a wetland had just changed due to new regulations. He had a low spot in his yard that would hold water (clay soil) for more than a day after a rain. It wasn’t the whole yard, it was just a low spot. That was what qualified his entire property as a wetland. Think that was the intent? I dunno…but it seems extremely idiotic. Because of that qualification, he suddenly found himself in a huge battle as to whether he should be allowed to keep his home or not.
Other regulations that Obama passed had to do with water regulations. The “Clean Water Regulation” his EPA passed was a thinly veiled attempt at gaining federal control of any property that had water on it. If you had a drainage ditch on your property, you were subject to those rules. When Trump got rid of that regulation, all the other water purity protections that existed before that idiocy were still in place. The quality of water was still being protected. It wasn’t helping any giant conglomerates or helping rich folks…it was actually protecting every day citizens from governmental overreach.
And THAT is what I’m talking about. The EPA passed a regulation which has the force of law behind it, but it bypasses congress entirely. Why? Because in a bloated government, every group wants their own rules to apply to all and want to be able to enforce those rules. But when a government can pass laws without due process, it stops being a government of the people and for the people. It starts becoming a dictatorship.

@stanleybmanly Fortunately, Kamala can’t debate the reality of the political setting in Washington, which Pence is well grounded.

Harris debates with points like, “Since you are widely perceived by ALL Americans except for your closest fascist allies, and also, seen as a rapist, a friend to Epstien, and more deadly than Hitler on all fronts, how do you expect to heal the nation?”

She wants to set up a false premise and debate that.

Well @Yellowdog ! That’s more than just a little delusional or hyperbolic on your part !

“Since you are widely perceived by ALL Americans except for your closest fascist allies, and also, seen as a rapist, a friend to Epstien (sic), and more deadly than Hitler on all fronts, how do you expect to heal the nation?””

False premises? That’s the framework for everything Trump. Mexican rapists, nonexistent global warming, rampant voter fraud, homosexuals destroying the military, the covid hoax, best economy ever, stable genius. Take your pick. The man is a Freudian masterpiece of psychotic invention dragging Pence in his slipstream as champion of religious fascism. You don’t want Harris with a microphone anywhere near Pence!

The tactic she (Kamala Harris) utilizes I am not aware of the terms in debate, but I will describe her technique—based on her confrontations in debate, in hearings, and in the Senate, based on her questioning honorable persons such as Attorney General William Barr, the director of the Department of Homeland Security, the director of ICE, and Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

She might say (to Pence, for instance), “As the first Vice President to be chosen by an illegitimately elected President, you do feel your role as Vice President is also illigitimate?”

To which Pence would deny that the President’s election was illegitimate or even perceived that way. Harris, like other members of The Squad, would quickly interrupt and declare that Trump’s election IS illegitimate and insist that Pence work from that premise. When he cannot do that, she would insist that it is a simple yes r no question.

This is a good technique for namecalling, fighting, wild accusations, and star-chamber techniques, but it not a form of legitimate debate. Harris may sink her teeth into pence as you say, but it will never be legitimate debate—something Harris is not capable of, and those who make some effort to observe are starting to see.

@seawulf575 . I will not comment on the “shed” incident, as I have no information about it.
However. Lowering emission standards, and allowing companies to run oil pie lines, through formerly protected areas, WILL increase profits for large corporations, AND damage the environment.
From what I have read, we are already seeing some environmental recovery, because of the CV-19 virus, lowering emissions. So. One could argue that reduction of pollutants, IS helping.
IMO. A portion of people suffering from lack of sheds, is worth saving the world, our home, for the greater good…

@MrGrimm888 The point of my comment was not the shed, it was that not all regulations are good nor do they actually do anything productive. Just because a regulation is given a cool name that can be used as a weapon against any detractors doesn’t make it a good regulation. And passing what amounts to laws complete with penalties for lack of compliance without any representation is what totalitarian governments look like. I’m all for environmental stewardship…I’ve lived in that world for many years. But let’s not be stupid about it.
Personally, I think we need to look more into wind and solar. Both have great potential, but are, as yet, unrefined enough to be economically and realistically practical. I give you California as proof of that. They went radically into the environmental world forcing out natural gas and nuclear in favor of renewables. But renewables can’t produce enough power on their own. So now they are paying exorbitant prices from other places to buy power and they are still looking at rolling black outs. I had an uncle that made wind turbines. He got rich doing that and would tell you that it was not good technology. The efficiency is not there. I believe it can be, but we haven’t progressed enough in those fields to make it so. To me, a sound environmental policy would have plans and goals to give us as many options for power as possible. But those plans and goals have to be realistic and have to look at things like efficiencies and needs…not just some dream of environmental stewardship.

^Okay.