Why are more Democrats not leaving their party?

Is Fluther now serving as an RSS feed reader for foxnews.com?

Democrats are smarter than that!
If they did leave, they would start a Moderate/Centrist party, as would 66% of Republicans.

I left because I was tired of the leadership cheating in primaries and going against the will of the electorate to enrich themselves and their donors. It had nothing to do with law and order.

Oh and the Republicans are psychopathic fuckwits—so it’s not like they get a pass.

I’m now an independent who will be voting Green and for some Democrats (if they refuse corporate money) for the foreseeable future.

@kritiper I am part of that 66%.

@gorillapaws

Just curious: when did you leave?

@crazyguy I was pretty fed up after 2016, but seeing how the Democratic establishment managed to rig the primary in 2020 for a guy with a horrible record (just about every major vote was wrong), who sexually assaulted his staffer and is basically experiencing dementia—that was the final straw for me. I knew for certain that they cared more about retaining power than they did about beating Trump.

The mass exodus already happened. Democrats have been rebuilding for a while and are setting up a pretty big tent for the future. Sure, there’s some cops who didn’t leave during the Bush Administration who might leave now, but on balance it doesn’t mean anything.

@gorillapaws It’s never been proven he sexually assaulted his staffer.

@chyna I believe Tara. There’s plenty of indirect evidence, and it’s clear that Biden is lying about it when they completely deny it, even though there’s the call to Larry King that proved SOMETHING happened back then. Biden could get the University of Delaware to release the records, but he won’t.

I’m voting for the only candidate who doesn’t have any credible accusations of sexual assault.

@gorillapaws – the Larry King call proves something was claimed. Older accusations don’t become more truthful. At any rate, I can definitely muster the cognitive dissonance to support a far lesser evil, because I care deeply about this country and it’s future, and one day I will be answerable to my children for my choices. I don’t think telling them I wasted my vote on a symbolic act will hack it when they ask me why we live in Europe now.

@Smashley “Older accusations don’t become more truthful.”

Contemporaneous accounts don’t prove the original claim, but they prove that this isn’t something that was fabricated right before the election. She’s been trying to tell her story for a long time, and the media have kept a lid on it until after Bernie suspended his campaign. It would be very weird for Tara to have fabricated the story, lied to her mother, brother and friend about it, (to the point the Mom wanted to call in to Larry King to ask advice) and then say/do nothing about it at the time. What possible benefit would the fabrication have accomplished at the time?

Is it proof “beyond a reasonable doubt?” Probably not, but the odds are well over 90% in her favor IMO. When I listen to/watch her tell her story, she comes across as truthful. Again, Biden could release the records to put this thing to bed, but hasn’t.

He hasn’t changed his story. She has. I believe him, not her.

@chyna She never changed her story. You can believe whatever the fuck you want to: Putin built a time-machine and sent her mom back in time to talk to Larry. If Biden was innocent he’d release the records, just like Trump would release his taxes if he had nothing to hide. Remember, Biden’s been lying his entire career.

It’s my opinion and I don’t know why you want to get so rude and hateful about it. I’m out.

@chyna “I don’t know why you want to get so rude and hateful about it.”

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that it’s pretty disgusting when people trash women who work up the courage to come forward and name their abusers—especially when that person is powerful. But you do you.

I hope someone you love doesn’t ever have to go through what Tara did and then deal with people who post opinions like yours, making them feel ashamed and cowered into silence.

My question too! IMHO many more than those who admitted it are leaving it or have left already.

Many Republicans have expressed their unhappiness with the Republican party and will vote for Biden, so where is that question?

@crazyguy – If you are honestly wondering about party affiliation in the US, you could look at some data.

* Poll alert for the poll-averse.

To answer the question , because they hate fascists and grifters even more.

@crazyguy Win-win!

50% of Democrats are Moderate/Centrist.

@kritiper “50% of Democrats are Moderate/Centrist.”

87% of Democrats support Medicare for All. 69% of Independents and even 43% of Republicans do. This means one of 2 things must be true:

1. Medicare for All isn’t actually radical and is the moderate/centrist position and therefore by extension those who oppose it are the extremists right wingers (including Biden)

or

2. Voters (including Republicans) are actually a lot more progressive than you’ve been lead to believe.

It also shows just how little Biden actually cares about beating Trump. Medicare for All is the obvious answer, is overwhelmingly popular and would be a lock for the win. We all know why he doesn’t support it.

@gorillapaws – His platform position of a public option is probably the only viable step forward right now, Biden is riding the line of pragmatism/idealism, but if the Democrats win big, I could easily see that changing to something more progressive, since, like you said, most Americans are for it, at least for now. Whoever wins won’t get the money out of politics at any rate, so the corporate interests who blocked the public option in 2009 will be back with a vengeance.

@gorillapaws In response to “I was pretty fed up after 2016, but seeing how the Democratic establishment managed to rig the primary in 2020 for a guy with a horrible record (just about every major vote was wrong), who sexually assaulted his staffer and is basically experiencing dementia—that was the final straw for me. I knew for certain that they cared more about retaining power than they did about beating Trump” I hope you realize that a vote for a third party candidate is probably the same thing as a vote for Biden. I am in California where Republican votes help only in keeping the margin down on popularity.

@Chyna In response to “It’s never been proven he sexually assaulted his staffer.”, is that what you said during the Kavanaugh hearings? If you did, kudos to you. If you did not, you shall deserve what you may get.

I think they are. And many “on-the-fencers” are changing their votes based on Trump, the pandemic, and the violence and rioting. I think 2020 will change a lot of party affiliations.

(I have never been a registered member of any party).

@crazyguy “I hope you realize that a vote for a third party candidate is probably the same thing as a vote for Biden.”

Well, a vote for a third party could get the Green Party over the 5% threshold that would qualify it as an official minor party according to the FEC rules, which would make it eligible to receive federal funds. Voting for Biden doesn’t do that. And I’m not in love with the Green Party either, but if progressives don’t do SOMETHING to fight the DNC, this country is royally fucked.

@gorillapaws In response to your latest post: In 2016, I voted for Gary Johnson who was the Libertarian candidate. He has not been heard from again, but I believe his party outperformed the Green Party candidate, Jill Stern, I think. Even if the Green party were to somehow break the 5% threshold, it would have to struggle mightily to get more than a handful of Representatives in the House. In the meantime, the damage to this country will have long been done, and you and I will be history.

I prefer to work within the 2-party system unless both candidates show a strong likelihood of fucking up our great nation. I truly believed that in 2016. This time around I believe that of Biden, but not Trump.

@Smashley In response to ” the Larry King call proves something was claimed. Older accusations don’t become more truthful. At any rate, I can definitely muster the cognitive dissonance to support a far lesser evil, because I care deeply about this country and it’s future, and one day I will be answerable to my children for my choices. I don’t think telling them I wasted my vote on a symbolic act will hack it when they ask me why we live in Europe now.”

Let me say the following. All men with the possible exception of a few priests and a few others, have done something in their lives to a woman (or a man in Kevin Spacey’s case) that they are somewhat ashamed of. I am convinced that both Kavanaugh and Biden fit that description. In both cases I do not believe the specifics of the accusation and, even if I did, it would not change my vote.

@si3tech

In response to “My question too! IMHO many more than those who admitted it are leaving it or have left already.” Let me say this. There are basically three kinds of voters: Committed, Persuadable or those fit to be committed to a mental asylum. Committed Democrats or Republicans know what they want, come hell or high water. The third category is just as bad.

This entire discussion is about the middle-of-the-road, persuadable voters. As somebody who did not vote for Trump in 2016, but who has since become convinced that Trump is the BEST President the US has EVER had by a long shot, I guess I have veered into the first category. I think the Democratic portion of that first category has started to shrink, mainly because of the riots and looting, but also because of several indications of a leftward tilt of the Democrats:

1. Choice of Harris.
2. A full embrace of BLM.
3. Acquiescence to Comrade Bernie.

@jca2

In response to “Many Republicans have expressed their unhappiness with the Republican party and will vote for Biden, so where is that question?”

I guess you just asked that question, as is your right. However, it would be better to answer my question first.

I don’t really consider myself a Democrat, I haven’t since the 1990’s. But I registered Democrat this year to vote in the primary and I will absolutely vote for Biden. Then I will re-register as something else.

Don’t count out how many people will be doing the same as I.

@hmmmmmm In response to “If you are honestly wondering about party affiliation in the US, you could look at some data.” I was not wondering about that mainly because I already know that independents are in the majority; and your link just confirmed that. However, be careful with that data. For instance I changed my affiliation from republican to Independent just so I could vote against Hillary in the Democratic Primary. Unfortunately, as you know, my vote against Hillary amounted to nought.

@kritiper In response to “Win-win!” I am a little confused. I appreciate a well-written CONCISE answer. However it helps if the meaning is clear!

@kritiper In response to “50% of Democrats are Moderate/Centrist.” all I can say is you could have fooled me.

@kritiper In response to “87% of Democrats support Medicare for All. 69% of Independents and even 43% of Republicans do. This means one of 2 things must be true:

1. Medicare for All isn’t actually radical and is the moderate/centrist position and therefore by extension those who oppose it are the extremists right wingers (including Biden)

or

2. Voters (including Republicans) are actually a lot more progressive than you’ve been lead to believe.

It also shows just how little Biden actually cares about beating Trump. Medicare for All is the obvious answer, is overwhelmingly popular and would be a lock for the win. We all know why he doesn’t support it.”

Kudos. That is a well-reasoned and well-presented response. As I have discussed on a different thread, Medicare for All is a disaster waiting to happen. If ever there was an idea where the devil is in the details, this is it. I have lived under the UK’s NHS and have researched other countries’ systems extensively. I say to you that the US system is basically the same!

You say: “What an outrageous claim!” Every other country with national health (except Canada) allows a network of private insurance companies to exist. While nobody can buy private insurance for services covered by national health, people are encouraged to buy “supplemental” insurance. How is the US system any different? We have a national health system (Emergency Rooms); for everything else we encourage private health insurance.

The one exception I mentioned above is Canada. Perhaps the reason they can get away with that requirement is that wealthy Canadian can find quality care without a wait list just across the border.

@Smashley In response to “His platform position of a public option is probably the only viable step forward right now, Biden is riding the line of pragmatism/idealism, but if the Democrats win big, I could easily see that changing to something more progressive, since, like you said, most Americans are for it, at least for now. Whoever wins won’t get the money out of politics at any rate, so the corporate interests who blocked the public option in 2009 will be back with a vengeance.”

I think we need to do away with Obamacare first; then we need to address why our healthcare costs so much and whether there is any way of reducing its cost (separate thread). Only then can we start a discussion of how we should pay the horrendous cost.

@tinyfaery In response to ”

I don’t really consider myself a Democrat, I haven’t since the 1990’s. But I registered Democrat this year to vote in the primary and I will absolutely vote for Biden. Then I will re-register as something else.

Don’t count out how many people will be doing the same as I.”

I gather that you became a Democrat (on paper) to vote for Biden. Just out of curiosity did you vote for Biden in the primary? If you did not, consider how exactly Biden reflects your choices.

@crazyguy “This entire discussion is about the middle-of-the-road, persuadable voters.”

There really aren’t any middle-of-the-road, persuadable voters. They’re a myth. Independent doesn’t mean in between these two polar opposite forces and you bounce between them. For many it’s a label that indicates they don’t identify with a party (for a variety of reasons).

In my case, I think the DNC and RNC are nearly identical on the most important issues and neither represents my “moderate” viewpoints of returning to pre-Reagan economics, not borrowing trillions of dollars to finance wars in the Middle East with no stated victory conditions (indefinitely is it?), millions of lives ruined, giveaways to billionaires, abandoning unions, allowing mergers of corporations into even more powerful monsters, allowing health insurance and big pharma to dictate our healthcare policy at the cost of tens of thousands of lives every year, locking up millions of Americans for non-violent drug offenses. All of those policies are extreme to me. The way I see things, we have two extreme right wing parties in the US, one being run by an incompetent lunatic and the other represented by a corrupt sellout that’s going senile.

People have been fed so much propaganda that they actually believe there’s this large distance between them. I describe myself as a “moderate/independent” I think a lot of people think I’m an extreme leftist. I think that says more about them than it does about me.

I think there are a lot more people leaving the Democratic Party than the media is willing to research. Part of the reason they are leaving and why you won’t hear about it is the lunatic reaction from Democrats, BLM and Antifa against anyone that isn’t 100% in lock-step with them. If I was a Democrat before, I wouldn’t be now, and I wouldn’t tell any of my friends or even any pollsters that might ask.

Ya know, Republicans could leave their party as well. So why is this question just about Democrats??

@crazyguy In response to “Win-win!”
Ditto! So you’re part of that 66%...
?

Why aren’t more Democrats abandoning their party? Where have they to go?

@gorillapaws In response to

“There really aren’t any middle-of-the-road, persuadable voters. They’re a myth. Independent doesn’t mean in between these two polar opposite forces and you bounce between them. For many it’s a label that indicates they don’t identify with a party (for a variety of reasons).

In my case, I think the DNC and RNC are nearly identical on the most important issues and neither represents my “moderate” viewpoints of returning to pre-Reagan economics, not borrowing trillions of dollars to finance wars in the Middle East with no stated victory conditions (indefinitely is it?), millions of lives ruined, giveaways to billionaires, abandoning unions, allowing mergers of corporations into even more powerful monsters, allowing health insurance and big pharma to dictate our healthcare policy at the cost of tens of thousands of lives every year, locking up millions of Americans for non-violent drug offenses. All of those policies are extreme to me. The way I see things, we have two extreme right wing parties in the US, one being run by an incompetent lunatic and the other represented by a corrupt sellout that’s going senile.

People have been fed so much propaganda that they actually believe there’s this large distance between them. I describe myself as a “moderate/independent” I think a lot of people think I’m an extreme leftist. I think that says more about them than it does about me.”

What makes a leftist or not is one’s support of radical ideas like:

Medicare for All
Free College
Unemployment Insurance Compensation higher than actual wages!
Mandated EVERYTHING!

@kritiper Now I am more confused than ever! I have no idea which 66% I belong to.

@seawulf575 In response to

“I think there are a lot more people leaving the Democratic Party than the media is willing to research. Part of the reason they are leaving and why you won’t hear about it is the lunatic reaction from Democrats, BLM and Antifa against anyone that isn’t 100% in lock-step with them. If I was a Democrat before, I wouldn’t be now, and I wouldn’t tell any of my friends or even any pollsters that might ask.”

I agree 100%. It is becoming almost silly to stay a Democrat any longer.

@stanleybmanly In response to

“Why aren’t more Democrats abandoning their party? Where have they to go?”

I think they should change their party affiliation to Independent and vote against the Democratic candidate.

@crazyguy: “change their party affiliation to Independent and vote against the Democratic candidate” and then what? Four more years of Donny?

No I absolutely did not vote for Biden in the primary. He is way too corporate and moderate for me, but I am unwilling to sacrifice the present to the future. Having Trump for 4 more years is unacceptable.

@crazyguy is that the remedy sought by Republican defectors? How about the Lincoln bunch running all those hard hitting anti Trump ads. Virtually the entire intellectual contingent of the Republican party has revolted in disgust to form an association devoted to the obliteration of Trump.

@jca2 One can only hope.

@tinyfaery That is what I thought. Most Biden supporters don’t even know what Biden stands for…not surprising because he doesn’t know it either.

@stanleybmanly

I am all for having a plan. However, I do not think the Democrats and the Lincoln Project can see beyond removing Trump.

And that isn’t enough?

@stanleybmanly No, that is not enough. Just like tearing down an established order without having a replacement leads to nothing but anarchy.

Have you a replacement in mind who might be worse than Trump?

@stanleybmanly I think Trump has been good-to-great for this country. So, no, I do not have a replacement in mind.

Well my perception is that more people are disappointed by the fool than in approval of the idiot. Do you believe he can attract sufficient numbers to replace the VERY large numbers of disgusted deserters?

@stanleybmanly I hope so. Otherwise we shall see a disaster in the White House and a wholesale betrayal of the US.

Why? To become a Republican? I’ll pass. Not into insane conspiracy theories.

@crazyguy And you claim to be a Moderate…

My response to Stanley and two others:

Stanley: If you can, try and separate the person from his office.

Locked… No, to see the light.

Kriti: I am a fiscal conservative and a social moderate. I am generally anti-gun, pro-LGB, I draw the line between B and T, and have zero understanding of Q, I am anti-BLM and anti-WS.

How do you separate a man from his office. I mean honest to God, is Trump the role model for your kids? What do you tell them as the lies and vitriol tumble from his mouth and the scandals proliferate like flies on garbage? The man is the direct opposite of EVERYTHING we have been taught our entire lives regarding character and decency, and endeavors mightily to obliterate any respect due his office. We and the world will be so much better off the sooner his sorry ass disappears down the toilet of history.

stanley…that is what I love about this awesome nation. We can disagree without resorting to punches. The surprising thing is I don’t even disagree with your comments about Trump’s character and decency. However, I can ignore them when I look at Trump’s ability to get things done against overwhelming odds. Obama faced similar odds and retreated into his shell to live out this final term. Trump has not done that yet; hopefully he won’t in his second term, either.

@Lockedout3 ” Not into insane conspiracy theories.” How’d you feel about the Russia Collusion fiasco?

@crazyguy Obama was a disappointment in that he didn’t kick the shit out of the right, and let the banks off the hook. He made the mistake of believing the current Republican muster capable of reasoned discussion and suffered appropriately for the mistake. Trump is another kettle of fish. He not only does not understand his office, knows nothing at all about the history of his own country and is barely literate to boot. He was extremely fortunate to avoid a national crisis until the arrival of the current pandemic, whereby his ineptitude is now displayed to spectacular effect.

@stanleybmanly Given the fact that most countries in the world, even those who may be considered by the left to have enlightened leadership, are experiencing covid-19 cases today, should tell us that not ALL the fault lies with Trump. Even Germany is recording new deaths, and poster-child South Korea has over 100 new cases. However, do not expect to find this news on CNN and other members of Biden’s press squad.

Yes, but we have 4% of the world’s population and 20% of the casualties. How’s that for leadership? States rights in action.

@stanleybmanly Perhaps that speaks to our general state of being the most obese persons in the whole damn world!