What can we do about the recent surge in covid cases?

1) Wear a fucking mask
2) Stay the fuck away from people unless you absolutely have to.
3) Don’t fucking go to rallies or gatherings of any kind.

What @Caravanfan said!!! Chris Christie did an interview after testing positive & he said that he had worn a mask all year & decided when attending the Rose Garden suoerspreader that he didn’t want to be the only one there in a mask & make trump look bad, so he decided that 1 time wouldn’t hurt. According to him, he learned a hard lesson & will resume wearing his mask wherever he goes & he no longer cares whether or not he’s the only one wearing one. I now have 5 friends who have tested positive & they are deeply insulted that I refuse to socialize with them. Well, I’m deeply insulted that they didn’t take better precautions to take care of themselves & I’m NOT willing to put my life on the line for THEIR pride!!!

Dr Fauci & other medical professionals have said a million times that wearing a mask is imperative & I’m listening!!!

Face the facts. We can voluntarily restrict our social interactions or continue on the present course until the virus FORCES us to act right. It’s a great pity that it isn’t merely the stupid alone who are doomed to experience the consequences of their stupidity. I am tired of hearing that we cannot risk a total clamp down. What point is there in dying for the sake of the economy, when the disease itself assures the wreckage regardless?

I work for the Hawaii State Department of Health.

1. Wear a mask at all times in public.
2. Practice social distancing.
3. Wash your hands often and for 20 seconds with soap.

I’ll go you one better. Avoid if at all possible public interaction with the public, and any who ignore that dictum. Isolate yourselves and await the vaccine. Hunker down and bunker up.

Stay home.
Wash hands frequently.
Use hand sanitizer.
Cover sneezes and coughs.
Stay away from large gatherings of people.
Keep your distance from others.
Wear a mask.

It sort of depends on who “we” is.

There are a lot of people who take the precautions listed above. In general those people aren’t the ones spreading Covid.

There are a lot of people – perhaps more – not just in the US but all over the world – who are not taking any steps whatsoever to control anything. As if there were no coronavirus. Those are the people that are spreading Covid and infecting the rest of us.

So – which “we” are you talking about?

It was proposed a few months ago, and I don’t remember where, that a total national lock down of two weeks only would impede greatly the spread. I don’t think there is any will or buy in to do that.

Thanks all for your answers. I was a little disappointed at the lack of depth in any of the answers. No research was done. No links were cited.

Instead what I got was the same old conventional wisdom that has not worked for about nine months now. Please try a bit harder to shed your preconceived notions and take a fresh look.

@crazyguy I am astonished at your ignorant words. I work at a Department of Health. Part of my job is to share our messages on social media. I’ve been sharing this stuff for 7 months. My simple solutions are working here. The virus is increasing in areas where these CDC-approved guidelines aren’t being followed.

I was reluctant to post here knowing your history. I will not answer one of your questions again.

@crazyguy The reason it hasn’t worked for nine months is that a whole lot of people are not doing what needs to be done. And no links were needed to deduct that.

Here is your fucking link
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html

@crazyguy: “Instead what I got was the same old conventional wisdom that has not worked for about nine months now. Please try a bit harder to shed your preconceived notions and take a fresh look.”

Often, the answer to a scientific question is really just to follow the science. Since this is considered the “conventional” wisdom, apparently, your request to shed convention is essentially a request to ignore science.

The real problem is that there is a conflict between the real need to hunker down and the brutal reality of global capitalism. There is literally no way to do the recommended things in the US, for example. What had “not worked” is that people are unable to just stay home or physically distance because their livelihood (and home, and healthcare, etc) all depend on not physically-distancing (working).

I’m not sure you would take my suggestions seriously or consider them “thoughtful” because it would require drastic economic actions that you would consider “too extreme”.

Suck it up buttercup !

Follow guidelines !

500,00 will be dead by end of February 2021 – - Because people don’t ALWAYS wear masks!

No secret about what to do. We have proven what works.

Jellies have said it above.

Wear a mask, distance, don’t be in large crowds, quarantine if you are sick or had close contact with someone who has covid.

Someone just told me there were 10,000 people at the Trump rally here where I live. You probably saw the video and photos. About 20–30 percent had masks on. That’s what I saw in photos and as reporter by people I know who attended. They were packed in like sardines. They were transported in buses from the parking lots to the venue. He’s all having rallies all over Florida, his son was in Michigan, they are blanketing the swing states and for what?! In Florida you can not register to vote for this election anymore and I don’t think anyone is undecided at his rallies.

You have said you wear a mask, now just get the lunatic covid denier, no mask, Trump supporters to wear one too.

As @hmmmmmm wrote, in the USA particularly, the fixation on money, including the lack of welfare for the needy and safety nets for the working people in the USA (not to mention our very expensive for-profit private-insurance-dominated health care situation) sabotages our ability to effectively change what people do. On top of that, many Republicans have made it a divisive political issue, which also doesn’t help.

As Bernie Sanders pointed out very early in the pandemic crisis, if we gave everyone a livable income (and businesses tax breaks or whatever’s needed to keep them in stasis) and/or means to live without financial ruin without “needing to go to work to avoid losing their jobs” for a few months, we could have all non-essential workers not have to mingle with others, and take the whole thing very seriously and effectively.

Instead, people still have a huge financial need to participate in our mingling-rich economy. People are more worried about losing their jobs and incomes, than their or others’ lives. Not to mention the indignant fools going around protesting by not wearing masks and throwing parties.

@Zaku My city is mostly people who don’t work and plenty of the Trumpers don’t wear masks. The only thing saving us here in The Villages is enough older people feel taking the extra precaution is worth it, and they “save face” with friends because they are older. That and half the people aren’t Republicans to begin with.

What can we do about the recent surge in Covid cases? Absolutely nothing. We can protect our elderly and those with significant health challenges. But we are looking at one piece of the puzzle and trying to determine the whole thing from that one piece. Along with the increase in Covid cases, we need to look at what the mortality rate is doing to see if the increase in cases is really resulting in a huge increase in mortality. Demographics will show that most of the increases are in age groups that don’t show a high mortality rate. Not to mention there is evidence that shows that treatment is much better than even a few months ago. Just because more people are getting the disease does not mean we are seeing a corresponding increase in deaths. And as more people get this disease, the closer we get to turning the corner on it since they have developed immunity by having it.
From a sociological aspect, there really is nothing you can do to stop it. I know…“Wear your fucking masks!”. Well, people have been doing that. Most places require you have one on to enter. If you aren’t seeing that, then you need to look closer. But it is time to be honest: some people aren’t wearing them correctly, the masks that most people are wearing are giving almost zero protection but making the people think they are protected, and not everyone wears them. But before everyone starts ranting about how great masks are, please recognize that there is evidence showing that 70% of people that contracted the disease wore their masks as they were recommended.
It’s a fucking virus. We have had viruses in our world since time began. We either get the virus and live or we get it and we die. I know…it’s a fatalistic view, but tell me…which of you is going to get out of life alive?

@seawulf575 Why do people wear seatbelts, quit smoking, stop eating fatty foods, wash their hands before performing surgery? I mean really we do have more control than you make it out to be.

Ever watch MASH when Hawkeye is upset a patient is dying and he is yelling “don’t let the bastard win” fighting to keep the patient alive. Potter explains to a colonel who is visiting the camp and witnesses the display that Hawkeye meant don’t let death win.

I’ve heard that in history Jews believed the practice of medicine is finishing Gods work. I think it is in the Talmud the phrase “saving one life saves the world,” something like that. We don’t believe it is just in God’s hands and just lay back and take what comes, we fight back! We protect others, we study to see what works best to keep people healthy and alive. As far as I know the Christians are supposed to care about life also.

If everyone had your attitude MILLIONS would have died over the years or not been born because of polio, small pox, measles, childbirth, accidents, and not just because of lack of vaccines, but also lack of treatment. Historically, people did stay away from the sick to not get sick, that is nothing new! Once we understood it wasn’t the devil making us sick but a bacteria or virus. Even before we understood microscopic cells they figured out people caught illnesses and infections.

@seawulf575 10 to 25% of the yahoos in my area are “independent thinkers” meaning masks are other people and not the yahoos.
I go into supermarkets, big box hardware stores and gas stations and the “independent thinkers” are NOT wearing masks or maintaining social distancing (I got cut-off in Costco three times same lady; mask around her chin towing, ten year old by hand).

@seawulf575 No matter how cavalier you wish to be about people dying, there is also the fact that with this virus there can be grave physical and neurological permanent effects in both older and younger people. If I am to die, I am to die – although I would prefer it to be later rather than sooner and with my family members able to be with me. But the idea of living with brain fog, physical pain and constant fatigue is really more upsetting. Let alone the cost to our health care system of all these extra ill people.

(I do sometimes wonder if all these casual “it’s just a virus” people have read anything scientific about this particular disease. And yes I know that for many, it can be mild.)

@JLeslie I know it is hard to believe, but there was really no evidence that masks, even in surgery, did anything to stop the spread of disease. Especially in those Hollywood times of the Korea War. Someone in the 1800’s suggested masks would help keep an open surgical wound from getting infected. No testing was done…just his idea. And many people went with it. Later testing found there was no proof it did anything, but people had gotten the idea that it was better than nothing.
Meanwhile, nothing in your response shows you even glanced at the citations I gave. Especially since they are from places like the CDC. The death rates are going down while the cases go up. The treatments are better. But those that are infected often (70% of the time) wore masks as they were supposed to. Those comments about masks would just shoot the push by politicians in the ass. Especially when you compare the idea that a mask will help keep you safe from the disease with the idea that masks were never designed to keep you safe, it was supposed to keep you from spreading the disease.

@Tropical_Willie Thank you for making my point. As I mentioned, many people that have masks aren’t wearing them correctly even when they are told they have to have one. And you can’t fix the sociological aspect which creates your “yahoos”.

@seawulf575 I think most of us know that us wearing masks protect others and not ourselves. That is why there is such outrage at the people who refuse to wear them. If they were only risking themselves, it wouldn’t matter as much.

@janbb And there are a great many people that are suffering all sorts of emotional and mental issues upto and including alcoholism, drug abuse, drug overdoses, spousal abuse, and suicides…all caused by the frantic terror created by people such as yourself forcing things to be closed down resulting in all sorts of massive stress being put on people. Funny how that never works into your views. Guess they don’t matter, eh?

@seawulf575 That’s bullshit. Terrible effects and I do understand. That’s why if we all cooperated things could have opened sooner and the spread lessened.

“or going to a bar/coffee shop (aOR = 3.9, 95% CI = 1.5–10.1) than were control-participants. Exposures and activities where mask use and social distancing are
difficult to maintain, including going to places that offer on-site
eating or drinking, might be important risk factors for acquiring
COVID-19. As communities reopen, efforts to reduce possible
exposures at locations that offer on-site eating and drinking
options should be considered to protect customers and employees.”

@seawulf575: Above, cut and pasted from your link. Obviously, it’s not mask misuse, it’s not wearing a mask at all, as one can’t in a restaurant when one is eating.

@jca2 Have you been to a restaurant this year? I have. I deliver to many every day. What did you see? I know what I saw…tables removed or marked off limits so that diners aren’t right next to other tables. Diners have to wear masks before entering and anytime they are actually getting to or from their table, even if it is to go to the restroom. So the efforts ARE being made to reduce possible exposures. But don’t let reality slip in.

@seawulf575 I think you’ve created a straw man argument. I never said we should close everything down still. I did say above that I had read a while ago that if things were shut down for two weeks universally, transmission would slow. I didn’t say that was being done or even whether it should be done. I know that in my state a shelter in place and then a measured reopening helped slow the rate of transmission greatly. Most things in my state are open now with restrictions such as mask wearing and limited capacity. And I do believe that proper universal mask wearing, hand washing and distancing have and do help.

As far as the emotional and financial toll on people, it is certainly part of the ongoing tragedy of the pandemic which is why another effective stimulus bill would really help. The countries that acted swiftly and effectively to control the disease lessened the rate of transmission and were able to reopen their economies sooner.

i’ll take my answer offline – or even not at all.

SARS wasn’t catastrophic because it wasn’t allowed to become a pandemic. It was contained in a small area of the world and did not have global spread. COVID has already become a pandemic. It is already worldwide. It’s too late to prevent it from spreading widely because it already has spread. Once a disease reaches that point, we either need a vaccine or we need herd immunity. The Spanish flu died out because it spread so much that the virus eventually had nowhere to go; so many people had gotten the disease and become immune that the virus’ spread was stopped. That is the kind of thing we have to look forward to. Unless there is a vaccine, I don’t think there is a way to stop a surge in cases. That doesn’t mean one shouldn’t take preventive measures, but I feel that all we are doing is slowing the inevitable, dragging this on for years. That may be necessary if a vaccine is forthcoming, so I am absolutely not saying “no masks”.

I guess what I’m saying is: we should take any effort to slow the spread whether or not a vaccine is coming, but if there is no vaccine, herd immunity will be the only means of truly ending this pandemic.

@Demosthenes People smarter than me say herd immunity will mean 1.3 to 7.9 million dead Americans !

With no guarantee because we don’t know if once you get COVID-19 are you immune forever !!

@Tropical_Willie You meant “herd mentality”. There, fixed it for you.

@Caravanfan Glad you still have a sense of humor ! ;>0 )

@seawulf575 Herd immunity through infection with current treatments is basically culling the herd, getting rid of the weak.

It does seem true treatments are getting a little for a certain group of individuals, @Caravanfan can current me if I’m wrong. Those borderline people who are hospitalized, but not yet so dire they need to intubated.

The death rate does seem to be lower than what was thought to be the worst case scenario, but still very high. The proof is how many are already dead. Even if you think some of the deaths are badly recorded as covid, it’s still a huge number.

Buying time matters. Hopefully, better treatments and a vaccine are down the pike.

How do you explain countries that masked up immediately doing so much better?

If you care about businesses and the economy I recommend just masking up and telling others and people stop crowding.

I have friends right now curbing their activities because of the Trump rally that just happened here. Throngs of people close together, most with no mask on. They will be spending less because of the blatant lack of concern for the contagiousness of covid in a city that basically 90% of the people are higher risk. One of my closest friends does line dancing three times a week, eats at restaurants once in a while, goes to the grocery stores, and she will not be doing any of it because if the rally for at least two weeks.

I actually agree there are people out there trying to increase hysteria, but it’s impossible to ignore the hospitalizations and deaths. The question is are people willing to change their behaviors for that number of hospitalizations and deaths. I saw men signing up for military service when almost 3,000 people were killed on 9/11. They sacrificed years of their life to serve. Where is that attitude of sacrifice for covid?

There are studies done that masks help.

Hey @seawulf575, how many people have you personally seen die of Covid? I’ve personally seen more people die of Covid this year than any other one thing.

Masks! Social distancing. Avoid crowds and large gatherings.

Typo: ...It does seem treatments are getting a little better for certain groups of individuals, @Caravanfan can correct me if I’m wrong…

Why not look at countries that do seem to have the upper hand on this nasty virus,and learn what they are doing right?

This herd immunity that mostly Rep/cons scream about, has a great many faults,one thing this virus has left lasting side affects even in young people.
And it hasn’t been proven once you had it doesn’t mean you’re immune to it for the rest of your life.
Wearing masks only protects people from the person wearing the mask,doesn’t do a thing for the one wearing the mask,I personally dislike wearing masks but but if I have to go to a public place that wants people to wear them I have no problem putting one on.

@Caravanfan So easy to repeat: “Wear a fucking mask!” After all, who can argue with that?

I will not try to argue with you because I am just a layman while you are a high-faluting doctor. However, I will point out this article which suggests that wearing a mask may not provide much protection.

Note the article points to research done by the CDC, and estimates that over 85% of patients included in the study wore a mask almost all the time. See
https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/new-cdc-study-finds-majority-of-those-infected-with-covid-19-always-wore-masks/

The fact that Americans wearing masks represent 85% or less of the American population implies to a layman like me that masks increase your chances of catching covid. I’ll be the first one to admit that that conclusion makes zero sense; so I hope you can help me draw a different conclusion.

One thing why is it so hard to wear a mask,or social distance while this pandemic is going on?

@crazyguy: Re: your link above, California Globe: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/california-globe/#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20the%20California%20Globe%20demonstrates%20a%20right-leaning,of%20American%E2%80%99s%20Frontline%20Doctors%2C%20which%20are%20demonstrably%20false.

@crazyguy “So easy to repeat: “Wear a fucking mask!” After all, who can argue with that?”
Apparently you can.

And the word is “highfalutin”. If you’re going to insult me, at least try to spell properly.

@jca2 From your link: “These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation.”

Upon further research, I found this article which says that the CDC stated that their guidance on masks says Messaging about masks everywhere on the COVID-19 section of the CDC website, from the COVID-19 FAQ page, to the general mask homepage and the page on considerations for masks, all highlight that the primary purpose of masks during the COVID-19 pandemic is to prevent the wearer from spreading the virus to others. Here it is:

https://www.king5.com/article/news/verify/verify-cdc-study-misrepresented-by-anti-mask-proponents/507-a54c564f-9815-4bba-aedd-92e55a8ca76c

So, if you are 99% certain you do not have COVID-19, is it ok to go maskless?

@crazyguy I’ll try one more time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6cTDGqcUpA&t=38s

@crazyguy “However, I will point out this article which suggests that wearing a mask may not provide much protection.”

This was already explained above, but:

Masks greatly reduce how much gets out, especially in terms of droplets, when a contagious person coughs or sneezes. That greatly reduces the risk of infection for OTHERS.

The common masks (not the medical protective quality ones) are to protect THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE, not so much the people wearing the masks themselves.

So hopefully you can see that your ideas about 85% of people who were infected had been in the habit of wearing masks, so masks make you MORE likely to get the disease, is a tangent that doesn’t make sense?

Fluther (and science): Masks protect you from spreading the virus.

crazyguy: 85% of the people who were infected were wearing masks.

Fluther: Ummm….masks protect you from spreading the virus.

crazyguy: But 85% of the people who were infected were wearing masks.

In all seriousness, @crazyguy – are you just trolling us?

@Caravanfan pretty cool and simple video showing how masks do indeed work.
Why do people still think the mask is for the person wearing it protection?

@SQUEEKY2: “Why do people still think the mask is for the person wearing it protection?”

I suspect that they don’t. Rather, they pretend that they do so that they can avoid being accused of intentionally trying to kill people when they expose others.

@crazyguy A man I know had COVID19 early on, and he assumes he is immune for now and also he assumes he can’t give it to anyone by breathing on them (of course he can still move the virus from surface to surface) and he doesn’t think he needs to wear a mask to protect himself or others, but he wears one! He wears one in the market and in crowds, so others need him don’t worry. Just for the psychological part of it for others.

In other parts of the world people might be able to trust that only those people immune would go maskless, but in the US you can’t know if the person is immune or just someone who listens to QAnon.

The peer pressure matters. The more people wear masks the more people will wear masks. Marsha Blackburn and Chris Christie proved that. They both were fine wearing masks, but didn’t because no one else was.

@Caravanfan Nope, I haven’t seen someone die from Covid personally. Yah got me there! But let me ask. Have you ever seen someone die from an auto crash? How about overdosing? How about a gun shot? Falling from a height? There are a million ways to die and this virus is just one more. Most of them are preventable up to a point. That point being that we all die in the end. But tell me….how come you aren’t addressing the article I linked that shows the death rate from Covid-19 is actually going down even though the infections are going up?

@hmmmmmm “Fluther (and science): Masks protect you from spreading the virus.” So are you trying to say Fluther is science? If you are trying to say Fluther just happens to agree with science, I give you the link I cited earlier that shows, from the CDC, that many people that wear masks as told to got the virus. Huh. So is the CDC not science since they disagree with Fluther?

@SQUEEKY2 No, once you get it you aren’t immune for the rest of your life. But you are immune for the next few years anyways. If not, if you are saying you can get this virus over and over and over again in a relatively short order, then we have no hope anyway. Even a vaccine won’t work since as soon as you get vaccinated you can go get the disease. Is that what you are saying?

@seawulf575 You too?

Quoting myself above:

Masks greatly reduce how much gets out, especially in terms of droplets, when a contagious person coughs or sneezes. That greatly reduces the risk of infection for OTHERS.

The common masks (not the medical protective quality ones) are to protect THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE, not so much the people wearing the masks themselves.

@Zaku I understand the idea that masks are to prevent you from spreading to others. My point is that most people are wearing masks, and it hasn’t stopped the spread. Because the masks we wear are crap. They aren’t designed to stop a virus. Even idiot tests like the one @Caravanfan just gave us are foolish. The masks don’t have the minimal porosity to be any good and even those that have the right porosity allow air (breath, water vapor, and virus) to escape around the edges. There are some that are great…but then how many people have you seen running around in respirators? Even the medical community isn’t sure why they wear masks even in surgeries. It basically comes down to either “we have always done it that way” or “it can’t hurt”.

@seawulf575 Seriously? @Caravanfan is an ICU doctor. Not only does he treat the most critical of patients, but he would have rounded through the Emergency Department during his medical education and might wind up down there at times even now. My bet is he has seen people die from all those things you cited and many other things.

I honestly don’t think most people have any idea what this burden is like on healthcare workers treating covid patients, especially the hospitals that have had to increase their ICUs to handle the patients, nor what is like on the patients and their families unless they have gone through it.

At least some people try to imagine it even if their own city hasn’t been hit hard. Any city can be next.

@seawulf575 @Caravanfan is an ICU doctor So. . . . to answer your inane question about death. I’ll let you figure it out.

“Have you ever seen someone die from an auto crash? How about overdosing? How about a gun shot? Falling from a height? ”

As you can see, this question, which, by all reports will determine the 2020 contest between Trump and Biden, has many people interested. If you ever take the time to read the background of the question, I tried to emphasize how widespread covid has become all over the world. It is not just a Trump problem or a Biden issue. Even countries like Germany are impacted. It is becoming apparent that simple solutions like mask wearing will not reduce the spread. What is necessary to reduce the spread is a complete lockdown similar to what California imposed in March and April. That was when freeways even around and in LA were almost empty. However, there is zero appetite in the entire world for draconian measures like that. We have to do the best we can as individuals and wait for better therapeutics and hopefully vaccines. We have to reduce the case fatality rate, and then accept it.

In the meantime, government has to provide targeted financial aid.

I guess you summed it up, @crazyguy, despite the medical profession advocating for wearing masks, despite the CDC advocating for wearing masks, @crazyguy says “mask wearing will not reduce the spread.” So everyone, take your masks off, and in stores, hospitals, and public places, when they insist, tell them someone on the internet says masks don’t work.

“Everybody should get the care I got.” – – – $300,000 worth of hospitalization and experimental drugs ! You have that in your checking account ?

* Wear your mask ass-hats of the US ! !*

@seawulf575 Very interesting stat from your first link. Race/ethnicity was available for only 52% of cases!!

However, race/ethnicity was available for 81% of deaths.

On that incomplete basis, 27,154 blacks died out of a total case count of 579,469 blacks who contracted the disease. That gives you a death rate among Blacks of about 4.7%.

Corresponding numbers for whites are 71,942 and 1,592,233. These numbers give you a death rate of 4.52%!

According to research described at
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/08/us-blacks-3-times-more-likely-whites-get-covid-19
“The report, based on data from Johns Hopkins University, also shows black Americans are twice as likely to die from the virus.”

Interesting!

@seawulf575 Your second link about the decline in death rates is also very interesting. That study shows results which match outcomes observed by most doctors but NOT @Caravanfan!

The reason why people are still getting infected even though they had masks on,is every one is not wearing the damn mask.
But here you are @seawulf575 trumping masks don’t work so why bother type thing.
You said you understand that wearing the mask doesn’t protect the person wearing it.
So what are you saying screw the masks,just get back to normal if ya get sick and die well you were not one of the strong ones?
Who cares if it overwhelms the healthcare system, dam it peoples mental health is at stake and we have to get back to worshiping the almighty dollar, and I just want to get a steak at olive garden without all the plexiglass.

And claiming the death rate is declining ,according to world metre the death toll for the US is over 230,000 since this started that’s declining?

Oh and I know you love your links so here it is. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

@seawulf575 Your third link is hard to read. I got through about halfway before retreating to your post to see what you extracted from the study. What I have got from the study so far is that dining at a restaurant, indoors or outdoors, or visiting a bar/coffee shop, is the largest causative factor for catching covid-19. I guess one reason for that is you cannot keep a mask on when eating or drinking.

@seawulf575
Have you ever seen someone die from an auto crash? Yes
How about overdosing? Yes
How about a gun shot? Yes
Falling from a height? Yes

And before you ask, I’ve seen deaths from heart attacks, pulmonary embolism, overwhelming sepsis, flesh eating bacteria, exsanguination from portal hypertension from liver failure, and many others.

And since February, the deaths I’ve seen from COVID are more then EVERY OTHER CAUSE put together.

Bing! Bing! Bing! I think @Caravanfan wins the Seeing People Die Competition!!!

Maybe he’s worth listening to.

I would listen to @Caravanfan , a lot faster than a fright winger more concerned about the economy ,then peoples actual health.

Oh lord.

A .5% death rate gives you 400,000 people dead if 25% of the population gets covid. I think we are easily on our way to that by the end of 2021. The original fears were 2 and 3% death rate, but even if its .5% it is much higher than the flu. Much much higher. The original statistics were when we only had stats for people sick and testing positive. Now, we have stats for people who aren’t very sick or even asymptomatic. Reports in March from South Korea was .68% death rate and they were doing massive testing not only very sick people.

Hospitalization rates are much higher even still.

@crazyguy ”Even countries like Germany are impacted.”

What’s so special about Germany, apart from our ability to create long words?

Here’s one for you: “Maskenverweigerer”. We have plenty of those, too.

@JLeslie and @Tropical_Willie I know @Caravanfan is an ICU doctor. And I am quite certain he has seen every one of the things I mentioned. I mentioned them to point out that people die all the time and no one gets out of life alive. So to play that sorry crap about seeing someone die from Covid is just silly. My dad jumped off a bridge to take his own life. Care to guess what that looked like? Think it was better or worse than watching someone die of Covid? In the end, it doesn’t matter since We. All. Die.
And being an ICU doctor I find it extremely odd that the question or the stats concerning the decreasing death rate from Covid isn’t being addressed. Yeah, it’s okay to cry about it, but when the reality is that the death rate is going down, don’t even mention it. And I see by his last answer to me he is still avoiding it. Sorry…his crap is not the end all, be all of the discussion since he doesn’t want to consider all the aspects and only wants to fear monger.

@seawulf575: “In the end, it doesn’t matter since We. All. Die.”

I love seeing someone attempt to piece together a moral argument for allowing murder.

@janbb Normally I might go with you on this one…listening to the ER doctor. But when they are entirely ignoring all the facts to make an emotional condemnation, credibility goes way down. Here’s a case where ER doctors weren’t the Gods you might think But I’m sure it is all Trump’s fault.

The difference is that here with covid and millions losing their jobs, those millions not only face the consequences of covid, but do so minus their job based health insurance. There is no point to discussing the consequences of a hospital stay in the United States for the uninsured. Acquisition of the disease here carries not only the risk of death. There is the much greater likelihood of financial ruin, and in the midst of this pandemic, with idiots crying for the repeal of Obamacare, meaning any and all diagnosed positive thus far can be labeled thereafter as cursed with a “preexisting condition”.

The other difference is that patients who die of Covid do not die quickly. They die after prolonged intensive care illnesses hooked up to a ventilator as more and more heroic measures are taken. Patients are on a ventilator for weeks, sometimes months. They develop superinfections, secondary infections, have complications like popped lungs, have to get tracheostomies and gastrostomy tubes, develop ulcers, and basically be tortured for weeks. Also, family are not allowed to visit because of risk of exposure. That’s not even bringing in the costs.

@Caravanfan When the patients have been sick for weeks are they still shedding virus?

@seawulf575 is a follower of “It is was it is !”

It’s great quote from Trump about 25% of the death in the world are from our country with 4% of the population.

He doesn’t give a F . . . . !

@hmmmmmm sort of like listening to justifications for later term abortions?

Relevant.

Clearly the Republican philosophy is not working.

@Caravanfan more fear mongering and still no comment about the falling death rates. Nothing about demographics. Nothing really very fact oriented except for that which you can use to try inducing fear. You started off with bluster…“Wear a fucking mask.” But then I come across sites like this one that tends to make me think you don’t have a clue what you are talking about but love to try scaring people. Oh! and after your little youtube video of the guy with the spray can…you might want to look at the video on the website I just gave you. It explains why you are out to lunch.

@gorillapaws again…that looks at cases but doesn’t really look at anything else. What about the death rate? Sorry, but that seems extremely relevant and your citation doesn’t address it. How about demographics? Again…extremely relevant and your citation doesn’t address it.

After that stream of ad hominem drivel I’m done here.

Sorry I don’t get it,the death toll keeps climbing with this pandemic yet you claim the death rates are falling,what am I missing?
Mind explaining that @seawulf575 ?

@seawulf575: “sort of like listening to justifications for later term abortions?”

Not “sort of”. You just justified so-called “late-term abortion”, and actual murder, including infanticide, and murder of any age child or adult. Good for you!

A 3rd World country (Thailand) has got highly advanced USA beat, with 147 active cases of Covid right now: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/thailand/

How were they able to do that? They wear their fucking masks!

The US, in contrast: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

@seawulf575 Just curious, do you feel pretty sure you are not at high risk? Feel healthy? No underlying health issues? Eat pretty well?

Who you going to kill or get sick ?

@SQUEEKY2 You are trying to compare apples to oranges. The death toll keeps going up. That is the total number of deaths. The Death rate is how many people per some number (such as per 100,000) that die. When the virus started hitting, we were seeing so many people per 100,000 that were dying. In a world where the virus hit everyone (all ages, races, sexes, etc) the same, that rate would remain the same. But what we are seeing is that now, with the number of cases going up, the death rate isn’t going up at the same rate. In other words, fewer new infected people are going to die than in the early days.

@RocketGuy There might be other factors there as well. Take a look at their average temperatures compared to the US. Thailand is a tropical nation…the USA is a moderate nation. Since the virus doesn’t do well in heat, that might be a factor.

@Caravanfan Yes, ad hominem drivel…complete with citations. Now THAT’S a challenge!

@JLeslie I am 60 years old, but am in decent shape, no health issues. But I’m not the only one in my family. My wife is 63 and has several risk factors. We both eat well. I have a job that puts me into stores all day long around people that I don’t know.
But we take common sense actions to help keep her safe. When I go to work, I social distance as much as I can. I am required to wear a mask, but the masks we wear are jokes. I can go into a cooler and see my breath coming through them. But they meet the criteria of a mask. More importantly, when I come home, all my clothes go into one specified spot and I take a shower to get anything that I might have brought home off of me. We have done this since this whole thing started and neither of us has gotten Covid.

@seawulf575 is now an epidemiologist as to why Thailand (which quarantines people who have come in contact with positive cases and WEAR MASKS) has so many lower cases

“Since the virus doesn’t do well in heat, that might be a factor.” not a freaking factor non-medical !

Just as a little aside, @seawulf575, if your mask wasn’t gas permeable you would suffocate in short order, so your little “freezer” analogy is just silly.
ETA: which doesn’t mean that masks are not effective. Most of the virus is carried in droplets, which are stopped by the masks.

I think he is trolling us @canidmajor ,like masks are not effective even in surgery, really you want the Doctor maskless over a hole he/she has made in you?

Like saying the death rate isn’t going up?
The dead keep piling up the US has over 230,000 dead so far and yet the death rate isn’t going up,it will have no problem hitting 300,000 by Christmas,yeah Trump has got this Covid thing under control.
Keeps spouting warm weather keeps the thing under control,GEE then why do Brazil,and India have such a problem with the virus? after all they are hot countries .

@SQUEEKY2 I find it funny that all of you folks advocating the use of masks all scream about things like “follow the science!” yet you fail to do so yourselves. Tell you what…I’ve posted many, many citations here and on other threads that show masks to be ineffective, even surgical masks in surgery, at stopping the spread of disease. And when I give these citations…you know…following the science…you all ignore them. I’ve never understood why. So I’ll tell you what…why don’t you get a citation that shows how great and effective masks are…especially those that most people wear. Follow the science.

@SQUEEKY2 And you still don’t understand the difference between death total and death rate, even after I explained it to you. You seem intent on clinging to your ignorance.

@seawulf575 Would you concede that one of the most significant input values in a function that calculates the death rate is the healthcare system’s capacity for treatment (net of supply and demand)?

@seawulf575, No one is arguing that masks stop the spread of the virus,and do little to protect the person wearing the mask,but you seem ignorant on is that masks great REDUCE the spread of the virus which is spread through droplets expelled by coughing ,sneezing , and just plain talking.
Would you be OK with a surgeon not wearing a mask if he was operating on you or a loved one.

@seawulf575 I concede you’re right the death rate is going down,for the rest of the world, but NOT the states.

@gorillapaws I would definitely concede that point. That is probably the cause for the decrease in the death rate. But the fact is, the death rate is going down while the cases go up.

@seawulf575: “But the fact is, the death rate is going down while the cases go up.”

The mortality rate is dropping. And….?

@SQUEEKY2 Sorry…I don’t agree that masks stop the spread of the virus. I have posted many links even in this thread that show that is a false belief. In fact, the wearing of masks is likely causing an increase in cases. Go back to the last link I provided…it shows a lot of studies that address this exact topic. Even the WHO admitted to the BBC that they changed their mask policy not because of new research but because of political lobbying.
Would I care about a surgeon not wearing a mask? As long as he doesn’t drool into me, I’m okay with it.

@seawulf575: “I don’t agree that masks stop the spread of the virus. I have posted many links even in this thread that show that is a false belief.”

You’ve posted zero links that make this case.You might want to start with posting a single link that makes the case that wearing masks doesn’t help reduce transmission.

@seawulf575: “Even the WHO admitted to the BBC that they changed their mask policy not because of new research but because of political lobbying.”

Going to need a citation.

@seawulf575 And you say I am the one that doesn’t comprehend,NEVER said masks stop the spread of the virus, you might want to go back and read slower
Masks have been proven to greatly reduce the spread of the virus.

@seawulf575 doesn’t want to share what ever HE’S SMOKIN’ !

Well the Rep/cons have basically given up trying to contain or control Covid19 so they think we all should they will just pick up the fallen later, after they have voted of course.

The death rate is still at about 7.6%, higher than for flu, and with no vaccine yet. Even if people survive, they can have complications from the disease for several months. Don’t toss out your mask just yet. Link

@hmmmmmm the fact that you don’t read the citations I provide negates your entire attack. If you actually read them, you would know that all your attacks are answered…several times over. Scroll back up and take a look. Especially the last one since it references many, many studies.

@SQUEEKY2 again…go back up and take a look. Most of the studies I cited (which none of you seem to want to read since they don’t agree with what your handlers are telling you) show that masks…ESPECIALLY those that most people wear have basically no effect whatsoever on reducing the spread of the virus. But don’t bother to read the citations since I have now pointed to them numerous times and none of you (except @jca2) care to actually try debating them. Instead you want to step back and just say I’m crazy or some such nonsense. Here’s a clue: you look entirely foolish to me when you do that. Especially since my citations are citing the science….the Experts!

@seawulf575: “the fact that you don’t read the citations I provide negates your entire attack. If you actually read them, you would know that all your attacks are answered…several times over. Scroll back up and take a look. Especially the last one since it references many, many studies.”

I read them the first time, then went back and made sure I didn’t miss any. Please – maybe I missed it. I’m seeing exactly zero links that make the case that wearing masks doesn’t help reduce transmission. I’m also awaiting that WHO citation.

@seawulf575: “attacks” – :) Someone is feeling particularly fragile today.

I know he is like his hero,OK and fine to call us anything he wants to,but if we do it we are being harsh.

And @seawulf575 please help out @hmmmmmm tell him which post you gave the link because I couldn’t find it either,an ER DOCTOR here says wear it,you say nope so called experts say it does no good,then you challenged that Doctor if he has seen people die of it and other traumas really?
He posted a great video showing how masks work at keeping projecting droplets down and you scoff at it, seeing how well known it is spread through these droplets ,and again you just scoff.
sorry bitter little man,but I will take the word of an ER Doctor over you and your experts every time.

Also, @seawulf575, I really need to see where you’re going here. So far, this is what I understand your position to be (correct me if I’m wrong):

- Physical distancing and mask use are not effective in reducing the spread of C19. (Or maybe physical distancing is, but masks have an no effect in reducing the spread??).

- It doesn’t matter anyway, because human life isn’t all that valuable (“In the end, it doesn’t matter since We. All. Die.”)

So, in your opinion, what recommendations would you give to the world? Do you recommend that we all drop the mask and distancing requirements and just let things play out? Are you advocating this due to some desire to cull the human global population? Is this an end-times apocalyptic fantasy you’d like to see? Or are you merely convinced that we’d see the same transmission and death rates as we have now if we were to just go back to “normal”?

What are we missing?

That is the feeling I am getting^^^ just let it play out if ya die from it ya die from it type thing guess the ones that die from it are the losers.
The rest of the population has to get back to worshiping the almighty dollar,and eating out without all the damn plexiglass.

Since I have pointed to it several times and no one can follow directions, try this one:
@Caravanfan more fear mongering and still no comment about the falling death rates. Nothing about demographics. Nothing really very fact oriented except for that which you can use to try inducing fear. You started off with bluster…“Wear a fucking mask.” But then I come across sites like this one that tends to make me think you don’t have a clue what you are talking about but love to try scaring people. Oh! and after your little youtube video of the guy with the spray can…you might want to look at the video on the website I just gave you. It explains why you are out to lunch.
And just because I don’t want you to all strain yourselves trying to scroll up, here is the pertinent link:
https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/
It has all sorts of links to other studies, it show with a video why masks don’t work, it pretty much explains why everything you have been told about masks is just. plain. wrong.

@hmmmmmm What am I getting to? The original question was what can we do about the recent surge in covid cases?. My response is absolutely nothing. We could shut the entire country down for 2 weeks…nobody goes anywhere, nobody does anything…and when we open again, things should be good again…except they won’t be. There will still be cases or more would come from other places. Face it…this one got away in China, they didn’t say anything about it, and it spread before anyone really knew what was going on. I got particularly set off by our resident ER doctor telling everyone to wear their fucking masks. I know, because I looked, that masks are not doing a damn thing for us except possibly keeping the spread of the disease growing.
In the end, this silly thing is going to have to run its course until we get a vaccine or until everyone (or almost everyone) has had it. Social distancing will help. Washing your hands will help. Not being stupid helps. But we are humans. We have certain requirements that no one really wants to talk about. Requirements that say we have to interact with others. We have to have a way of blowing off steam. We have to have a certain things in our lives that isolation doesn’t supply.
If we continue shutting things down, our economy tanks. People lose everything. That adds to stress and frustration. It adds to all the negatives we see in society: drug addiction, drug overdoses, spousal abuse, alcoholism, suicide…the entire gamut. So we are at a point where we can continue to try the things that haven’t worked for almost a year now, or we can just deal with the fact that we are going to lose some people. THAT’s where I’m coming from on this.

One thing your expert didn’t want to touch on with his video, was that mask wearing greatly reduces the DISTANCE THESE DROPLETS can travel,which is basically what the spray gun video showed, not one person here argued that the masks protect the person wearing the mask.
AND I AGREE the masks don’t stop the virus, BUT they do cut down on the projected distance of droplets ,and between social distancing and wearing the mask we can reduce the spread of C19 but you won’t agree.
But if we all did this we wouldn’t have to look at shutting anything down and causing the stress you are concerned about where people will kill themselves because they can’t go to work.

(I can’t. I just can’t.)

I agree @jca2 ,sure glad Canada doesn’t have @seawulf575 ‘s views.
I guess pick up the bodies later type thing,lets gather around for a big group hug and Trump rally.
The Rep/cons are done with any preventive measures to costly any ways.
I predict with these views there will be close to 400,000 dead by Christmas how’s that for a slight up tick?

@seawulf575 – Thanks for your clarification. Believe it or not, there are some things we can agree on…

“f we continue shutting things down, our economy tanks. People lose everything. That adds to stress and frustration. It adds to all the negatives we see in society: drug addiction, drug overdoses, spousal abuse, alcoholism, suicide…the entire gamut.”

This is 100% true. Kids are particularly vulnerable. We’re going to be living with the mental health effects this is having on kids for decades. It’s fucked up.

That said, you seem to think that the options are to just let it runs its course. This is unacceptable for most people who have loved ones and generally don’t want to murder a large part of the world. Your assessment of shutting down is correct in that your economic system will not allow it. However, we can do it – and not just for 2 weeks.

We can pay people to stay home and afford to stay in their homes until necessary. “But who will pay for it?” The class that we’ve created with our labor – you know, the ones who we’ve made rich and continue to redistribute money to. The ones who are holding the chain attached to the dog collar around our necks.

And yes – it would still be difficult for children to be so isolated. There are actual solutions to opening schools so that everyone who wants to go can. It just happens that we aren’t willing to do it. We don’t have a political party that has proposed an actual solution. But, shit – as cliche as it sounds, if we can send some fuckers to the moon, we can take over some large empty buildings and outfit them with adequate ventilation in order to allow properly spaced education for our children.

The fact is, you are arguing that there are 2 options:

1. Since you don’t buy the scientific consensus about masks, you feel that they are useless. So, only physical distancing works. Since we can’t appropriately outfit society to physically distance while simultaneously working and getting an education, we should allow the wealthy to hold onto their money, and C19 run its course: all goes back to normal.

2. We shut down, allow people to lose their jobs and healthcare, allow people to lose their housing, have a total collapse of the economy and possible armed revolution.

Keep in mind that you’ve completely taken the most reasonable option off the table:

3. We provide a basic income to everyone that will allow them to eat and keep their home and health insurance (moving to single payer would be far cheaper, but lets just go with keeping private health insurance). We fund – via a massive jobs program – the outfitting and updating of schools to accommodate appropriately-distanced learning and ventilation. We fund small businesses’ (restaurants, etc) rents. When we have to go out for a necessary task, or we are an essential worker, we go out wearing appropriate masks that are well-fitting. And when we’ve been able to roll out, the capitalists still are obscenely rich and the we haven’t treated them to our guillotines.

@hmmmmmm you actually expect any conservative to agree to option 3?
They would much rather have dead rotting on the streets than except that.
Heck option 3 is socialism and that’s damn near communism that goes against everything they stand for .

^ @SQUEEKY2 – :) Well, there is still the guillotine route. Their choice. Note: that’s not socialism either.

@hmmmmmm The problem is exactly what I said when this whole roller coaster ride started back in January. We are on a spectrum. At one end is Do Nothing and Let It Run Its Course. At the other end is Shut Everything Down Until the Whole World Is Covid Clean. Unfortunately, any action short of the latter leads, invariably, to the former. We can shut down for a while, but that doesn’t stop the virus. It is still out there. When we start to open up we will (and do) see a spike in cases. These cases will continue until “we do something” and the whole thing starts again. this will go on until we have infected as many people as we probably would have if we did nothing…it just takes us a whole lot longer to get there with a whole lot more damage done along the way.
As for me not believing the scientific consensus, I notice you want to attack the source of the citation instead of the substance. The citation I gave many, many links to the actual studies. you obviously didn’t read or digest any of the actual stories. you just want to discount the entire thing by attacking the source. So let me bring out some of the links for you:

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-politics/
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v2
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1
http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13523664
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

So that covers the CDC, the New England Journal of Medicine, The Oxford Center for Evidence Based Medicine, the University of Illinois, and many more. Japanese studies, German studies…all coming to the same conclusion. So what exactly is your version of Scientific Consensus? I think it is time for you to cough up a couple citations rather than just relying on “we all know” as an excuse.

And did you really read what you wrote for #3? Basically you are saying (what is sounds like, anyway) is that we pay everyone to stay at home and we fund it with a massive jobs program. Ummm…if everyone is staying home, what jobs are there to be filled? And since no one can work, where does the funding come from? Or are you saying that after all is said and done we force everyone back to work and tax the crap out of them, basically making them work for slave wages until the cost is recouped?

All, I am gratified that there is so much interest in actually doing something to halt this scourge on us.

I am delighted to have an able debater like @seawulf575 carry the ball for me. I fully sympathize with his frustration at most responders’ inability or unwillingness to do any research on their own. That was the reason I seriously considered leaving Fluther.

I just want to repeat that the entire world is expeiencing a significant spike in cases. Therefore, can we leave our political inclinations out of the discussion?

Yes, but why do some countries seem to have a much better handle on Covid19?
Is it their countries government have a better policy for its citizens to follow?
Countries such as Iceland,Taiwan, and New Zealand are doing fantastic regarding C19.

@crazyguy: “I fully sympathize with his frustration at most responders’ inability or unwillingness to do any research on their own.”

This is just objectively incorrect. Who here hasn’t read tons of scientific articles about the benefits of wearing masks? Combined with the scientific consensus on masks, it means that there is very little reason to doubt it – unless you insert “political inclinations”. If your political ideology is anti-mask, then you’re more likely to find other studies more compelling.

I am not a scientist, and I’d love to not have to wear a mask. I’m not convinced. Maybe if you and @seawulf575 wrapped your arguments in more condescending radical right-wing ideology and misanthropy, you’d convince me.

@crazyguy: “That was the reason I seriously considered leaving Fluther.”

Leave already.

@hmmmmmm “Who here hasn’t read tons of scientific articles about the benefits of wearing masks? Combined with the scientific consensus on masks, it means that there is very little reason to doubt it – unless you insert “political inclinations”. If your political ideology is anti-mask, then you’re more likely to find other studies more compelling.” Apparently nobody has read any actual scientific articles showing the benefits of wearing masks since none of you can actually post a citation. And when I post many from the scientific community you call it radical right-wing ideology and misanthropy.

Why bother post any citation,you will just scoff at it.
Like I pointed out NO ONE said the masks STOP the virus,but not good enough for you @seawulf575 .
BUT you still refuse to admit that the masks keep projected droplets way down,and that with social distancing is our safest bet so far.
And you are all bent over CLOTH masks,but an N95 does protect against the virus.
What do you want from us,no one disagreed that cloth masks did little to nothing at stopping the virus,but you refuse to admit they do a great job at keeping projected droplets to a very short distance, like the spray can video pointed out.

@SQUEEKY2 Back in the March/April timeframe, the Chinese knew that aerosol transmission of covid does occur – see
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20067728v1.full.pdf

Social distancing indoors prevents direct attack by large droplets, it does nothing against smaller aerosolized droplets. When do you think our science will tell us that? The Who revised their scientific brief on July 9 (see https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmission-of-sars-cov-2-implications-for-infection-prevention-precautions)
after a humongous hue-and-cry from 200+ scientists – see
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/scientists-urge-consideration-of-airborne-sars-cov-2-transmission-67702

FOLLOW THE SCIENCE!!!! Give me a break!