Do you regard Trump as a tragic figure in the classical sense?
So, is the Trump saga therefore a tragedy?
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No, Tragic heroes have heroic qualities and abilities.
Trump is dark, dark cultural parody, farce and/or tragicomedy at best.
Unfortunately, he and his supporters aren’t just fictional…
No, no, no. Absolutely not.
“A great or virtuous character in a dramatic tragedy who is destined for downfall, suffering, or defeat.” Brought low, as I recall, by a so-called tragic flaw, often hubris.
Here we have the opposite: a character void of all virtues, elevated by means of his very iniquities, and spreading those like a plague among the people. It will be a stunning but apt irony if he is brought down by virtue, someone else’s, not his own. Some of us, at least, crave the sight of that reckoning and fear the systemic poisoning if it doesn’t come.
Rather a hero, not tragic.
No.
He is the comically evil, and bumblingly inept villain from a parody James Bond movie, of whom you do not know how he ever got to where he is.
Though admittedly, Dr. Evil was a whole lot more competent.
@si3tech
You probably think the same of Adolf.
@Jeruba But it isn’t his repellant characteristics that should determine his status as tragic, but rather the fact that he is enslaved or motivated by them in the same manner as for example Richard III. I mean isn’t the great lesson of Trump how even wealth is no defense against the warping of the individual. Do you believe Trump somehow has a choice in behaving as a jackass? I suppose that’s my real question.
I consider Trump a failed President, in the historical sense. So the Trump saga is therefore disaster.
Brought down by his own hubris – is what comes to mind. If anything, I see a parallel to Julius Caesar, who turned down the job of Emperor, but simultaneously was amassing power and influence to the point that Brutus felt that he had to stop Caesar.
I think that the historians of the future will treat Trump as horrible aberration and the one who accelerated the downfall of the American idea.
@stanleybmanly,
> I mean isn’t the great lesson of Trump how even wealth is no defense against the warping of the individual
No, I don’t think that’s it at all. Wealth was never a defense against warping, as an easy thousand examples have shown. If anything, it facilitated his corruption by fostering the notion that wealth could spare you the consequences of your choices.
Richard III would be a huge step up for Trump, one that he simply has no capacity to take. I even think hubris is giving him too much credit. Jackassery is much closer to the mark, although even that is not nearly vile enough. You can be a jackass without being a monster.
We have yet to learn the great lesson of Trump. It may not come in our time.
But isn’t jackassery tragedy when personified in the President of the United States? Again the question, does Trump actually choose to be a jackass?
It’s a tragedy for the country but so far not for Trump. The classical tragic hero is brought down by his hubris or other tragic flaw but so far Trump has not been brought down nor does he have the perceptiveness to recognize his own culpability if he is.
Only inasmuch as he was mocked and ridiculed from the beginning of his campaign and it’s only gotten worse over time.
Part of that was his fault with his tweets and things, but not all of it. In that way, yes, he does get some sympathy here as many feel Dems have thrown up obstacles his entire term intentionally. I also keep seeing memes depicting him as a victim of the Dem/Rep deep state.
@janbb that lack of perception isn’t an element of tragedy? That he is wired as such—is that his fault? Normal is a notoriously fuzzy concept, but are his abnormalities something over which he has any control?
@KNOWITALL I don’t claim he isn’t worthy of sympathy. Leniency in his sentencing would probably be appropriate. And I with probably most of the country will be happy to just get rid of him. But I do believe he qualifies as a great tragedy.
We may pity and even defend a monster, and might even hold him circumstantially blameless for his actions, but we still don’t want him running our country.
@stanleybmanly, go back and look at Oedipus and the others. It’s not the cluelessness that makes them tragic but the moment of revelation. Trump isn’t having any revelations. They are beyond him.
Darth Vader was a tragic figure, and even he had to die in order to be redeemed.
Nice one loli. He was devised to die a sympathetic character in atonement. But what if he were allowed to retire with a pension?
@stanleybmanly My husband and I were just discussing over the weekend, how things could have been minus the tweets and other things. If he’d have maybe done that at the beginning but stopped and listened to advisors tell him that wasn’t ‘done’. I guess we’ll never know at this point, but it’s interesting to think about.
So do you find him tragic in his inability to control his impulses? I mean the consequences of such traits certainly outweigh a stutter or limp.
@stanleybmanly Sure. He’s ran in the elite circles with the Clinton’s and everybody, been to West Point, all kinds of things that I would think would give him the tools to make a great President. You know there are thing’s he’s said and done that even make rednecks shake their heads, stanley.
No. I consider Trump a Alfred E. Neuman of MAD MAGAZINE figure. (And Roger Kaputnik is his vice president.)
Not a tragedy, not a comedy.
A calamity.
My brother, a trump supporter, even said he is embarrassed for a lot of what trump says or does or tweets because he doesn’t have sense enough to be embarrassed for himself.
He is a tragic figure because indirectly he is “still” seeking “love and acceptance” from an absent father that could not give that to him.
Hence he seeks “attention” and “acceptance” by other means that being power and celebrity status.
He is misguided by “power and greed” thinking that is the epitome of acceptance into society?
He is in dire need of counselling by an expert.
@Inspired_2write thank you. Now I understand why he tears up when 25K to 40K people are all chanting, “we love you!” at his rallies.
@Jeruba I’m skeptical that Trump must have an “aha” moment for his saga to qualify as tragedy. But let’s all join the world in holding our breath while praying for the landslide.
He is pitiable but not tragic. He is the only person I know of who I would call amoral. He places great stock on winning, and cares not in the least how he goes about doing it. It is not that he is evil, but simply does not operate under any moral constraints. Lying, which he does all the time, and cheating, are simply means to attain ends. I feel sorry for him. He is less than a complete human being.
@janbb Thank you for that link. I was definitely taught a
concept different from the given definition. This is particularly true regarding the fact that the character in question must be initially imbued with noble or virtuous traits. My understanding has always been that tragedy is about its victims being diverted from the path of goodness and harmony through the stresses of circumstance, and things ending badly for them in the end. From @Jeruba ‘s example, Oedipus comes to grief because he chooses to exercise his own judgement in defiance of pronouncements from the gods. My case of Richard III is tragic because Richard, who’s smarter than shit, makes the mistake of believing his deformity deprives him of all happiness. The play begins with him announcing this fact. But from the opening scene there are no redeeming characteristics to the man. It’s straight up absolute villainy from curtain up to his grisly death on Bosworth field.
My assertion is that Trump is tragic not merely because given his advantages, his behavior appears beyond his control. The other aspect to tragedy is in the wrack and ruin his defects generate for all about him. This is for me a biggie he shares with all the tragic heroes and villains.
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