Which would you prefer, an honest vote and your choice loses, or your choice wins, even if it means cheating?

We aren’t against fact checking. What we are facing is Republican lawsuits and the president mobs making accusations without evidence. Trump has been saying for months that mail-in voting is fraudulent, without any factual basis.

Nobody is going to admit they want to win a fixed election. But if you want to get into the actual facts, Republicans depend on vote suppression and disenfranchisement. It’s not a theory, it’s not an accusation, it’s a simple fact.

In my previous life, I worked with adults suffering from schizophrenia and other mental illnesses. One morning a woman frantically came to me and told me that someone had stolen her birth mark. Now, I’m all for investing accusations of crime – but there was no evidence that a crime had taken place. And there were plenty of reasons why I wouldn’t feel the need to investigate this. Had there been any evidence that a crime had taken place, I would have called the authorities and started a search for the missing birth mark.

An honest vote and my choice losing, obviously.
Here is the problem though:
Drumpf’s objections are not based in fact, and he makes allegations in bad faith.
Long before his allegations of “fraudulent votes”, for which by the way he offered no evidence, and has had them already rejected by courts in Michigan and Georgia, he declared himself the winner, demanded that the counting stop immediately (in states where he was leading), and demanded that ballots that were postmarked before election day but arrived after be discarded.
He does not want all honest votes to be counted. He actively tried to deprive people of their honest vote, because they diminished his chances of winning.
What he is doing now is muddy the waters in a propagandistic attempt to construct his own Dolchstoßlegende, increase the fervour of his followers, and delay the count long enough so that states can appoint party-loyal electors to supercede the will of the people, and for his right wing stacked supreme court somehow handing him the presidency in the end.

Furthermore, there is no standing to accuse the democrats of trying to prevent the count of honest votes in order to win.
After election night, where Biden’s disastrous performance was revealed, long before the flip that happened later, Democrats were already resigned to their loss.
No one was advocating to storm polling and counting places to uncover “fraud” by the drumpf regime.
No one was demanding to stop the vote in states where democrats were slightly ahead.
No, that activity is all coming from the republican side.
This gaslighting attempt to somehow reverse the culpability in this situation is disingenuous at best.

Honesty is always the best policy and it nets you the most respect.

trump told North Carolina voters to mail in votes and vote in person. That is fraud and he knew it. As @ragingloli said, he wanted to muddy the waters, have reasons to say there is fraudulent voting. His petulant, pouting whining last night was a total embarrassment.
Democrats have not been accused of fraud, nor have they accused any states of widespread fraud. But to answer your question, I would rather have honesty than dishonesty.

@All, please reread the details of my question. Your answer should not include any finger pointing, which amounts to diversion. This is about oneself only.

@ragingloli, are you now claiming US citizenship?

I saw this question as being country agnostic

^ To be fair, since no country is free from the effects of US foreign policy, this is relevant to everyone in every country.

Honest vote. Only reason is because it’s the only way to preserve our Democracy. One where my guy wins but we cheated would mean denying people the right to vote. I see that as being very Anti-American. It is something a nation that is beyond repair would do. But then it may also have something to do with the way I was raised. An honest win is a real win. My husband use to play games sometimes and cheat sometimes to win. So a few times I try to cheat and would instantly tell on myself. He would laugh at me and asked me why did I fess up. I would tell him it never felt like a win.

Honest vote.

Definitely prefer an honest vote. I’ve backed winners and I’ve backed losers, and I’ve always felt ok about losing a fair fight. If I ever supported a known cheater, I’d never stop feeling creepy about it.

@Patty_Melt, I saw where you said that you wanted the view from the U.S.and asked others to identify themselves. I don’t think as many as half the Flutherfolk are actually in the habit of reading the details.

Oh, thanks @Jeruba. I did miss that. I’m through and through American and I’m riding with Biden.

@Jeruba, thanks for being respectful enough to read the full question.

@All, anyone is welcome to answer, but perspective of inclusion makes a difference. That is why I asked jellies of other countries to identify themselves as such.
As can be seen by a question elsewhere about American courts, some non residents have a clearer perspective of functions here than others.

Please be respectful of my question, and read the details, and all is explained.

I’d prefer an honest vote. I’d prefer no Electoral College, just the vote of the people is the vote that counts. I’d prefer consistent rules nationwide, so it’s not that some states you can register on the day of and some states you have to have registered weeks before, or some states your mail in vote has to be received by a certain date and other states are different. If there were clear, consistent rules nationwide, there would be no accusations of lies and mishandling of votes, because every state would treat their votes the same.

If you immediately know that the candle is fire, the meal was cooked a long time ago.

It’s a tough question because it’s contradictory. “Honest vote” and “cheating” in the same question?

I have never been an “ends, not means” person. The means matter. Otherwise you risk selling out your integrity.

There are always individual cases of voter fraud, but for the scale of fraud that Trump is alleging there has been provided no evidence. As I like to say, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

It’s a tough question because it’s contradictory.

It’s a “gotcha” putting us on record as supporting honest elections. Republicans will forever believe Trump’s baseless accusations of election fraud. By that measure we are all now hypocrites.

What’s amazing to me is that this is the way most Dems felt in 2016, while the Republicans gloated and danced with happiness. This is the same system that elected Trump, and yet when Trump loses, the Republicans cry foul.

Well, kind of the same system. The people voted D both times.

Republicans lost 7 of 8 of the last popular votes. 1 win in 30 years. The people prefer Democrats.

I agree @Demosthenes, just that Republicans are all over the place saying “The system is broken.” It’s like really? This is the same system that elected Trump 4 years ago, even when the popular vote went to Hillary. It was ok then, for them, but it’s not ok now.

Definitely a fair vote. I am disgusted with cheating and cheaters. I’ve voted for people that I knew were going to lose but who I felt were the best candidate at the time (Ross Perot, Ralph Nader, etc.). But when you see blatant cheating and someone wins because of it, you don’t respect that person.

Michael Rappaport said it pretty eloquently.

We can count. We can recount. Let’s do it three fucking times. We’ll triple check it.

Count it three times with video feed and shut up the naysayers.

^Would that even help? Even with video feed, naysayers would just say those are fake ballots and the real ones have been thrown out. There’s no answer that would satisfy them if the outcome is anything other than a victory for Trump.

I agree @Demosthenes. I think nothing will make the losers happy, other than a total reversal of the outcome.

Yes, do the recounts, let the observers in, even if you need to handcuff them to a table if you are afraid they will do something. Put a camera on the ballots. Do whatever they want so they stop the lies. Full transparency. There already are live camera feeds for some of the ballot counting centers.

I was watching Fox News today and they interviewed a woman working the ballots and she said there are no trash cans, no pens, nothing but tables, chairs, ballots, and the machines. Both Republicans and Democrats working together and observing. She said it was impossible to tamper with anything even if she wanted to.

A friend of mine was posting on Facebook about dead people receiving ballots. I told her that is easily looked into. The people in Elections can easily see if a ballot was cast. I can look up my vote online just with my name and birthday. There is no password or barrier, its just illegal to look up someone else’s ballot, but it is not difficult to do it in most states. If there is a question probably Trump’s people could ask for a court order or an order for elections to look up dead people still on the rolls and if they voted.

It’s easy to bamboozle the Trumpsters to believe anything about the mail-in if they voted in person, because they are not familiar with the mail-in process.

It’s easy to bamboozle the Trumpsters to believe anything about…

…anything because they don’t want the truth, they want to hear stories that “prove” their beliefs.

Look, no one is going to admit to being okay with cheating, so I’m not sure what you were expecting in terms of answers. It’s like asking “do you think you’re intelligent?” No one is going to say no unless they have particularly low self-esteem. It doesn’t mean everyone who says yes actually is. I’m sure there are some cases in which some people would overlook cheating, but no one is going to admit they’re okay with a dishonest vote because most of us see ourselves as honest people. Most of us do no think of ourselves as lacking integrity. And in order to be okay with a dishonest vote, you’d have to admit to lacking integrity and morals. Who is going to do that?

And of course Trump and his claims are going to be brought up because that is what the current conversation about fraud is largely about. People like to apply hypothetical questions to real-world situations.

Maybe you should explain more where your question is coming from. Who is opposed to fact-checking fraud claims? Which claims, specifically? Who opposed it and why?

Some of the locals have been honest enough, posting things on the news FB page. Lots have said they don’t care if businesses burn. Whatever it takes, they want a particular woman in office. The man won, and some are suggesting some ugly ways to have him disappear.
Whatever. Anyway, I can see who would accept any means to their desired end, by the steam rising from their answers.
I do appreciate the jellies who took a mature approach to answering.
I have wondered if given an open door, would I give in to temptation. I don’t think I would, but I would feel sour after if my choice lost.
I’m simply not a sneaky person. I was in my late thirties I think, when Oprah showed what somebody did to catch a friend at snooping in their medicine cabinet. They filled it completely with marbles! There is no hiding that. Then it was a big topic on her show about snoopy people. Such behavior had never even crossed my mind. It blew me away how many people admitted to snooping through people’s stuff when they are alone in the room. So, yes, sometimes people do admit to character flaws.

The question is pretty simple. And yet, so much finger pointing from a few.
In San Francisco, you get an ass kicking if you point at people in public.

” The man won, and some are suggesting some ugly ways to have him disappear.” What in God’s name are your news sources @Patty_Melt?

I have stated above that we had a local situation with the election.
Am I the only one here who noticed more than one thing to vote for on the ballots?
The question is hypothetical but I had our local issue in mind when I posted it.

Every election has issues with fraud, mistakes, and unexpected results. This year it is a hot topic, but lots of issues crop up that don’t hit the national scene.
Accusations are being flung about in my area. It involves only one result. The count was right, but it got reported wrong. Think Steve Harvey and Miss America.
Some believe the error was intentional. The local news station has all kinds of posts about it on FB. I’m in a red state, and the actual winner is a Democrat. The news is fanning the flames.

Sources PLEASE @Patty_Melt ! “The count was right, but it got reported wrong. ”

Not some Fright wing tabloid

Well, part of the reason my answer is “honest vote” is because I’ve never felt invested in an election enough to think a loss meant the end of my way of life. Maybe if there was an election where a loss meant (to me) that my life was over, I would be okay with cheating. I mean, I can come up with extreme examples where if a candidate was going to outlaw homosexuality, then yeah, I guess maybe I would support any measure, including cheating, to not get that person elected. Outside of something like that, though, no, I wouldn’t be okay with it. I’ve just never felt the stakes were high enough in any election I’ve voted in.

My little local thing got resolved with a hand recount.

Some people have their noses out of joint, but we’ll see if she’s got the stuff. Maybe she is more than a mattress back.

The vote was so close, it mattered how many best friends each one had.

”...but we’ll see if she’s got the stuff. Maybe she is more than a mattress back.” WTF? What an incredibly misogynistic thing to say! Especially from someone who fully supports this first lady.

If I didn’t know better I would assume you’re some 80 year old white guy who can’t stand the thought that there could be women out there who are smarter than you!
It also explains the Hillary obsession.

She earned her own reputation. It wasn’t me who sullied her.

And, since you don’t know either me or her,you have no way of gauging who is the smarter woman. I can tell you I have accomplished quite a lot more in my lifetime.

Has it occured to you that people could be lying about her? A woman’s sexuality is always the first thing people target when trying to discredit a female.
Further, if she DID sleep her way to the top (which she didn’t and you have no proof that she did, beyond rumors) BFD!