What do you think about the Supreme Court's decision that there should be no restrictions on religious gatherings?
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janbb (
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November 26th, 2020
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107 Answers
Wow. Well, churches are in the funeral business, going to be a lot more of them.
The SCOTUS is now set to take us in to a theocracy.
It’s the Hasids in Brooklyn and Rockland County that have been having gatherings with hundreds of attendees. The Covid rate will continue to be high until something changes, either a vaccine comes out or these people die off (which of course, they’re not likely to die off).
One more reason I’m glad I don’t go to church.
@cookieman My congregation has been virtual since March.
Mine has been virtual since March also.
No surprises from this court. Religion is more important than health. Typical right wing disdain for science over faith.
Let the religious people die. They make the choice.
@chyna and @janbb make good points. Just because they can meet in large groups, doesn’t mean all churches will. Clearly some are practicing common sense.
I don’t know exactly how draconian the restrictions in New York were, but as long as they are not singling out houses of worship and discriminating against religious institutions, then I don’t see the problem or how it is a first amendment issue.
@jca2 Thousands of attendees, not just hundreds.
The decision illustrates why cult kook Amy Coney Barrett should not have been confirmed. Or why she was confirmed – to help religious zealots impose their Dark Ages beliefs on everyone else.
”Let the religious people die. They make the choice.” I would agree wholeheartedly @elbanditoroso…if only they were the only ones affected.
@elbanditoroso I kind of agree but the problem is that they burden the health care system with their foolishness and they can spread it elsewhere.
I googled Diane Feinstein the other day after she stepped down, and part of me was wondering if she may have a little dementia.
Diane Feinstein, the criticism goes (in case you’re wondering how this applies to this discussion) went too easy on Amy Coney Barrett at the confirmation hearings, and she hugged Mitch McConnell when it was over. Very odd to say the least.
From a legal angle, I totally agree with it. From a common sense angle concerning people who would go to church despite the danger of COVID-19 spreading, I’d say you’d have to be nuts to go to church.
It’s not just church, @kritiper, it’s any religious gathering, like christenings, Bar Mitzvahs, Bat Mitzvahs, etc. I’m betting that they can stretch that definition and put weddings in their too. Probably funerals, too.
@jca2 Yup. As I’m sure you know, there were thousands of people at a Hassidic wedding a few weeks ago.
@janbb: Yeah it’s all over the news. Also Rockland, Kiryas Joel does the same thing. Very insular, too.
^^ And in Lakewood, not far from me.
My opinion is churches never should have been singled out, because too often the religious are paranoid, and there are sinister groups in the country who reinforce and provoke the paranoia.
Any order requiring 6 ft distancing, masks, no groups larger than 10, per 300 sq ft, whatever rule, would have taken care of church services without singling out churches.
I’ve seen the comparisons of the unfairness of opening liquor stores and closing churches and it’s a false comparison if we are comparing 10 minutes of shopping to 45 minutes of a large group sitting in the same room. However, people coming in to worship and light a candle randomly seems to me basically the same.
Regarding the court case specifically, the conservative view was the pandemic is not reason to infringe on religious rights. I completely disagree with that line. In America we protect health over religious freedom. We don’t let people do religious rituals that are very risky to the health of the congregant, we don’t let the religious make rules against our laws that protect people.
Interesting that Roberts again was with the liberal judges.
I think it is great. We have a constitutional right to freedom of religion. Cuomo made it clear a short while ago that black lives matter and antifa were entitled in fact MORE entitled to protest” (aka riot, murder, start fires and whatever they felt like doing) but forbid Church services.
@si3tech What if my faith required me to disperse biological agents into a city? Does my freedom of religion grant me that right? Why or why not?
My opinion is churches never should have been singled out,
They weren’t. The rules are about gatherings, whether in a church or temple or not.
But now they are singled out with special privileges.
@si3tech Glad you spoke up, I get you, I understand.
Black lives don’t matter when they are intruding where white people are, and the Antifa crowd should know that we should have left the Fascists alone in World War 2, and maybe adopted some of their policies.
Some people’s First Amendment rights are more important than other people’s First Amendment rights.
@Call_Me_Jay I know places of worship were not singled out in my state and my governor caught hell in the media and liberal public opinion for not doing it. So, when you say they weren’t singled out, are you saying they weren’t in any state?
This is nasty and dangerous and absurd. Does this mean that the churches can also ignore fire codes and building safety regulations and occupancy limit laws?
The First Amendment should not apply here. No one is preventing worship.
@JLeslie He’s saying that that large gatherings are prohibited except for churches. They get a special pass for reasons I don’t understand.
When something is “singled out” it is usually for nefarious reasons. That is why he is saying they weren’t singled out.
For where two or three are gathered, there it is among them.
Completely specious argument from Gorsuch: “It is time — past time — to make plain that, while the pandemic poses many grave challenges, there is no world in which the Constitution tolerates color-coded executive edicts that reopen liquor stores and bike shops but shutter churches, synagogues and mosques.”
In what world do dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people at a time gather in a liquor store or bike shop and sing and recite together for an hour or two at a stretch?
It’s not about the place, it’s about the congregating. If people were to pass through the consecrated space of their choice, say a quick prayer and receive a quick blessing, drop a bill in the basket, and pass on out, that would be comparable to stopping in for a six-pack or a new tire.
And although the sacred spaces are created to encourage worship and praise of one’s chosen deity, true believers don’t need a special building; whereas it is very hard to conjure a bottle of Barefoot rosé or a pair of fingerless leather gloves out of a bit of scripture and a song.
From a common sense perspective, no group should be singled out. We need to avoid large gatherings.
I agree with you @si3tech. But the persecution of Christians and the war on Jesus and all.
@jca2 That went without saying. Of course it meant religious gatherings in general but the OP specifically mentioned “religious gatherings” which I meant to mean church in general, be it in whatever form one may take it. I didn’t want to be too nit picky on the precise terms and meanings because I figured the folks here would understand the generalizations obviously implied.
Agree with @Jeruba. If people were properly-masked and popped in quickly to a church, I’d have no issue with it. The comparison of churches to liquor stores is completely disingenuous.
Now I’m imagining a huge group of drunks singing in a liquor store.
@raum, I did too. But not in a bike shop. Right? Please say right.
If you want good service in a bike shop, show up with a 12-pack.
@Dutchess_III I understood that. Like I said, I think it’s ridiculous to say churches get some sort of exception during a pandemic. Safety trumps religion. We don’t let people cause harm for religious reasons. Or, I guess now we do. I also don’t think churches should be shut down more than other businesses, which is what was being called for by a lot of people. It should be a matter of what behaviors are safe and what aren’t.
@Jeruba That was the point DeSantis made. He wasn’t for forcing churches to close down, but was saying you can’t congregate in a group in a church it was too high risk.
This is what Cuomo said about the ruling (cut and pasted from Huff Post):
“It’s irrelevant from any practical impact because the zone that they were talking about has already been moot,” the governor said. “I think this was really just an opportunity for the court to express its philosophy and politics.”
He also pointed out that the decision, which now goes to the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, is not final and did not appear to affect New York state’s rules for mass gatherings.
The houses of worship argued the limits imposed by the state violated religious freedoms protected by the U.S. Constitution’s First Amendment, and that their facilities were singled out for more stringent restrictions than essential businesses, such as food stores.
The Orthodox congregations Agudath Israel of Kew Garden Hills and Agudath Israel of Madison, as well as nationwide Orthodox Jewish group Agudath Israel of America, requested the injunction.
Insane. “We stand on our 1st amendment right to put “our” people in danger.”
The Agudath are like a cult. I don’t even call them orthodox I would call the ultra-orthodox. I’m pretty sure they are anti-zionist (I’m not a Zionist, but I would never call myself anti-Zionist) they have all sorts of rituals that are more extreme than typical orthodox observances. Calling them Jewish is almost like calling the Jehovah Witnesses Christians. They’re Christians, but all sorts of extreme takes on things.
@jca2 Great video.
In another discussion group I just compared them to the people gathering in bars that were sources of several super spreaders in Florida. The young people were overall clueless about the danger, and all ages who were more interested in having fun didn’t pay attention to distancing guidelines, so the bars were closed. Places of worship were closed when they proved to be breeding grounds.
The end of the video makes the point that there should be better communication between the government and the community.
@Jeruba First the liquor store. Then the bike shop. Nothing like wassailing winos on wheelers.
If protests and riots and Walmart being open is okay, it’s illogical to think a 30 min service is any worse. Just my opinion, but I dont go much anyway. Most churches here have virtual option.
@KNOWITALL ”If protests and riots and Walmart being open is okay, it’s illogical to think a 30 min service is any worse.”
Sorry, but the science disagrees. Viral particles don’t accumulate outdoors, and activities like singing and praying emit orders of magnitude more particles into the air than breathing. I don’t condone any form of gatherings right now, but pretending that group gatherings indoors is just as safe as an outdoor gathering or a quick trip in and out of a grocery store is ignorant of the science of airborne transmission.
It’s the proximity of the people that is the problem @KNOWITALL.
@cheebdragon That is:
1) a not-peer-reviewed study
2) from a mechanical engineering associate professor with no epidemiology background
3) who worked “using computer modeling” without any actual measurements of infections
It tells me the pro-life Supreme Court isn’t.
Well, most churches are doing the right thing and limiting gatherings, going virtual etc. It seems only the ones who are political rock this boat.
@gorillapaws Almost every list of exposure here has been Walmart and Dollar Store. College parties were the superspreaders, they think they are safe.
Churches here are being far more careful in general. These pics do show a lack of concern, I’ll grant you that.
@KNOWITALL “Almost every list of exposure here has been Walmart and Dollar Store. College parties were the superspreaders, they think they are safe.”
You’ll find no disagreement from me that college parties are a major problem.
That said, any indoor gathering without special air systems is incredibly dangerous. From what I have read, the minimum infectious dose of COVID-19 particles is around 1,000. An infected person releases 20–30 particles per minute from breathing. The air is not coming from the lower parts of the lungs and so breaths don’t produce as many particles. Speaking (and call/responses with the congregation, praying out loud, etc.) generates about 200 particles per minute. I would imagine that singing is even more so than that as you’re using the lower parts of your lungs. The relevant factors are the time spent, volume of air, number of people. Keep in mind that those particles hang in the air for hours and go right through masks that aren’t N95 or better.
This has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with the science of airborne transmission. If churches had service outside, with masks and social distancing, I still wouldn’t like it, but it would be many orders of magnitude safer. The real problem is that it’s completely unnecessary. One can attend virtual services. And I also think stores should be doing curbside instead of letting people inside. It’s not about singling out churches. It’s about NOT FUCKING KILLING PEOPLE for no reason…
If your church service required shooting 10 grandparents in the head to kick things off, would you feel good about it?
@gorillapaws Why are you assuming churches are singing? A lot of churches have stopped singing, or are only having the main singer sing who is very distanced and often behind glass now, and the congregation no longer joins in.
A lot of people are going to virtual church, the churches are doing both in person and virtual simultaneously. I won’t sit in an indoor place for a long time with a group of a lot of people right now even if everyone is distanced with masks, but I have been indoors at times to buy a car, a medical appointment, and a few other things. Some people seem to need to go to church. Most of my friends who are going to church aren’t going every week like usual though. Most of my church going friends are not going.
@KNOWITALL Are the Walmart incidents employees? I am assuming your area has a lot of no maskers? Although, I assume the employees wear masks, even though I am sure the mask wearing is imperfect even when they do wear them, which is the case here, but I’m empathetic.
I think that when the governors started closing things down and specified churches on that list, people were annoyed, but were willing to go along with it for the greater good. But when those same governors changed their own orders to allow protests that led to riots and arson, they lost a lot of credibility. And now that they want to shut things down again, they are starting by identifying churches again. That tells me they aren’t worried about the disease. They are pushing an agenda. They should have specified that protests were off limits as well, but they won’t. Both the protests and religious gatherings are identified in the First Amendment, so why single out one and not the other?
@seawulf575 BLM protests were outside and almost all with masks within a short time, in the beginning there was some bad compliance with masks, but that quickly changed. I still think they went on too long and had some risk, but throughout the time of the protests cases were fairly low. Even cities like NYC they did not see a spike in cases from the protests, and that was one of the cities with very good mask compliance.
Comparing outdoor protests of people walking through the street with masks on is not the same as sitting indoors constantly near the same people, even if it is 6 ft away, and having possibly covid build up in the air. The inability for people to understand the difference is part of the problem, and remember I am one of the people saying churches never should have been singled out, even though I do think it was right to close them initially and I think it is right to still take big precautions now in churches.
From my POV some churches were defiant and paranoid from the start. Those churches got media attention. Those churches were not taking any precautions, it was like total ignorance or denial, I am not exactly sure. Most places of worship were compliant even without orders and closed down or did virtual. Catholics had direction from the Vatican, and the Pope was not having any sort of paranoid hissy fit about churches being closed, that’s probably half of our Christians in America right there.
For the clergy, it is their job, their paycheck, their business. That is part of their motivation to hold services whether people want to think it or not. Luckily, a lot of people seem willing to donate even when it is virtual.
^ @Jleslie – You’re not being fair. You haven’t even considered that protests against the state murdering citizens hurt @seawulf575‘s feelings.
@chyna Actually if you look at the dates, several of those photos are a few years old. I’ve seen several photos of people with masks at protest marches. I couldn’t say what percentages there are.
@chyna Fox News talked about it for the NYC protests. They interviewed a NYC doctor. They seemed to want to change the subject fast when she was saying they weren’t seeing any spike in cases probably from the mask wearing. I happen to catch it, because I had turned to Fox when President Trump was going to speak from Mt. Rushmore and it was on just before that rally.
You have more photos than I would have expected with no masks, but like I said, there were protests initially without masks, but then later people started to mask up, partly because cable MEDIA dropped their bullshit about defending BLM protests people who were in crowds without masks and saying it’s different than open the state protests. At first MSNBC was trying to defend it, which again they hurt the Democrats! I think someone higher up told them to shut the hell up and change their tune.
Edit: it doesn’t change that protests are outside, and often times moving. Church service are indoors, unless they are done outdoors.
Does anyone know what the laws actually said? Do they say no indoor gatherings of more than X number of people or do they say religious institutions should be closed? if it’s the first, I don’t see any reason why they should feel they are being discriminated against.
It seems like religious institutions feel they should be above the law, not just “protected” by it.
I would have thought that allowing religious institutions to have no limitations during a pandemic would be against Oliver Wendell Holmes dictum that the freedom of speech stops at being allowed to shout “Fire” in a crowded theater. But this is the Supreme Court we are going to have for many years.
@janbb You are right, I didn’t look at the dates, I just assumed that they were all recent pictures.
@chyna I found this, which is another set of photos. Mixed bag. I think it mattered a lot what city. https://www.shutterstock.com/search/black+lives+matter+protest
Back when Floyd was killed parts of the Midwest probably were not wearing masks with any consistency. Maybe that’s why @seawulf575 thinks of the protests being maskless and I have a different perception. I think he lives in the Midwest, I might remember incorrectly.
@janbb It differed by state. What state did the Supreme Court case rise up from? In Florida when DeSantis wouldn’t specify churches he caught hell from a lot of people even though he consistently said singing is high risk, being indoors is high risk, and large numbers of people together is high risk and everyone should be distancing.
Edit: I just saw the comments of the dates on the photos. Thanks for noticing that.
@JLeslie In the beginning and carrying on all throughout, outdoor gatherings at churches were banned as well. So your consideration that the protests were outdoors doesn’t hold water. And I know that several of the governors changed their edicts on gatherings to accommodate the protests. No Gatherings of More Than 10 People!...unless you are protesting, then you should try to keep it under 100. And masks were not addressed at all. Face it…churches were treated extremely different for the same Constitutional right.
^^ I think the old saying “Two wrongs don’t make a right” is operable here.
@seawulf575 I heard about outside church services being closed down, but there were also places where they were allowed. There was outside confession too. Some states went too far, no question. I think @janbb is correct that two wrongs don’t make a right. There is hypocrisy out there and I’m usually the one to call it out, so I’m probably not the one you should be arguing with.
Protecting religious practices so religion can do whatever they want even if it endangers their congregants is a mistake and not what America should be about. There is an ethical standard that rises higher than protecting specific religious practices.
Treating religion with harsher standards than other businesses is something I can probably get behind.
@JLeslie Do you think it’s smart for Jews to antagonize the situation more than any other religion is, during this pandemic?
Christians complain, and make that known, but also generally and biblically acknowledge legal authority. The Jewish folks in the burroughs appear to be doing as they want regardless of the laws.
And follow up question-what will make Jews take Covid seriously? Anything?
Let’s be clear here – @knowitall – don’t start blaming things on “the Jews”.
There is a small but loud sect of ultra-orthodox Jews – generally the Satmar sect, but there are some offshoots from that – who are in the middle of this.
The rest of us – Reform, Conservative, and Modern Orthodox Jews – are following the rules and not doing stupid stuff.
We Jews are not a monolithic group. Try and keep that in mind.
@elbanditoroso
As one of the few Christians here who always supports Jews, please dont get defensive. My question was to Jen, who appears to be saying services should be shut down. Since she identifies as Jewish, I’m interested in her thought process.
Also, the case before the Supreme Court was brought by an evangelical Christian denomination as well as an ultra-Orthodox Hassidic group.
It’s pretty important to those of us who are Jewish that we not be lumped all together given our history.
@KNOWITALL Which Christians here don’t “support Jews”? I have not seen any comments more anti-Semitic here than your rather generalized comment.
Right wingers believe supporting the hard right Israeli government and settlers equals being pro-Jewish, and anything else is anti-Semitism.
@Call_Me_Jay Yeah, I was thinking that’s what @KNOWITALL meant. She’s apparently not aware that many Jewish people are critical of the politics of Israel and its settlements.
@Knowitall I learned late in life that sometimes a simple apology saying, “I’m sorry, I misspoke” is more effective than digging in your heels. Your comment was fairly offensive.
@KNOWITALL: sad clichéed response when you don’t have a response.
I stand by this: ”I have not seen any comments more anti-Semitic here than your rather generalized comment.”
@janbb You literally just lumped me in with a biased rightwing comment by @gorilla. You apologize.
When does the OP apologize for using a Muslim extremist as an example in the other religious freedom thread?
@KNOWITALL You’re not even making sense any more. Gorilla isn’t even on this thread. I’m out.
@KNOWITALL Most Jews don’t identify with the Ultra-Orthodox that I think you are referring to in NYC. Those groups are seen as very extreme and practically cultish. The media is calling them orthodox, but that really is an incorrect term. Ultra-orthodox and Haredi would be more accurate. An analogy might be the Amish is a sect of Christianity like the Haredi are Jews. Or, even the extreme LDS that live basically on camps with extreme practices as being Christians. Many are anti-Zionists, there is all sorts of things about them you might not realize. Here is a great link @jca2 posted about them. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wPsjN2ZIA9k
Here is a Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism
A lot of Israelis view the growing population of Haredi Jews as a problem. They have lots of babies so they are probably growing in numbers. I’d have to look into that.
Months ago when a jelly, it might have been you I don’t remember, linked articles about what was happening in NY and some people were saying DeBlasio or Cuomo were being antisemitic my response was that accusation is ridiculous. I don’t think DiBlasio or Cuomo are antisemitic for one second.
My perception was the religious right presented this example of Jews in NY because it speaks to the Christian base who also was paranoid about their churches being closed. I think most of that messaging started in alt-right groups, not average Republicans who were also trying to do the right thing regarding the pandemic and be compliant with measure to protect themselves and the greater population. These extreme groups though, their messaging traveled across media and took the attention of republicans who are not so extreme, but still influenced by that sort of messaging.
Even some Jews who are not extreme came out with opinions that the Haredi were being treated too harshly, and I think there were some examples of that, but overall the group is primed to distrust government and also the ultra-orthodox are very insulated, and they would not necessarily know what health experts and politicians were advising, they would just go by what their rabbi said, who might think God takes care of all things, or even be totally oblivious altogether.
@JLeslie I’m worried for those in NY because anti-Semitism backlash is rising and the articles show the population is surging. Many rabbi’s are asking them to follow rules, from what I read.
Thanks for educating me respectfully. If anything I said was offensive, I apologize.
I’m curious what you would say to convince someone in those temples about being superspreaders or protecting their families. What would convince them?
@KNOWITALL I wasn’t offended.
I think I understand what you are worried about. That the general public probably groups all Jews together. My sister, who lives in NYC, was rather “annoyed” about media not clarifying that these groups are ultra-orthodox and not explaining better that they are extreme groups, like how I just explained it to you. Not only not explaining, but also that the media was only calling them orthodox not ultra-orthodox. She felt most New Yorkers knew the difference, but most of the country doesn’t.
It has to be their rabbis, not other rabbis. Maybe an analogy would be it’s like asking a Baptists to listen to the Pope. My guess is the Haredi would not even consider me Jewish.
Convincing them is as hard as convincing the Christian no maskers sucked in by QAnon. For people like this God and allegiance to country or community as they perceive it is more important than anything. If you watched the YouTube I linked it does show that some of the ultra-orthodox are being more compliant. What makes the news are the stories that get attention like always.
Who is going to become antisemitic from these stories of what is happening in NY? The White Supremacists who are antisemitic already are. The Christians who are against the government doing any restrictions regarding covid are on the side of the Haredi. Even if they are antisemitic, it would be the enemy of the enemy is my friend. Most Christians in America, especially evangelical Christians, are fiercely pro Israel and in turn ok with the Jewish people for now.
Have you heard any rumblings of people being antisemitic more across the board because of these NYC reports?
If they didn’t show the pictures @seawulf575, how did you come across them?
@JLeslie No, but many articles said anti-Semitism is rising because of it. Presumably around New York. I’m not anywhere close to there but it worries me.
Yes, you’re right, many of us (non-Jewish) lump Jewish sects together like many do Christian sects. Your example is perfect, in fact a Baptist cousin and I just argued about it week before last.
Honestly my own mother still insists on Sunday service but says the are masked and socially distanced. She knows I disapprove, especially since she’s immuno-compromised. God is far more important than me or anyone else, I assume the ultra orthodox sects feel the same.
@KNOWITALL To clarify, I’ve tried to be fairly consistent over the last nine months that I believe outside is safer than inside. That distancing and masks should be done always when indoors. That brief contact, like walking through a grocery store is less risk than sitting still for an hour indoors even at 6 ft and masked.
Places of worship simply have more risk than other businesses unless some changes are made by the place of worship to make things lower risk. Briefer services, outdoor services, no services, but having the church doors open for people to be able to come and pray at whim or speak to clergy, all sorts of ways the church should be able to be open and reduce the risk.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that every exposure is another chance at catching covid. It just takes one time, one wrong place wrong time to catch it. I go into supermarkets, but I do at least half of my supermarket shopping curbside to try to reduce my risk while other people might prefer to do all shopping curbside and deliver, but feel the need to go to religious services.
The government telling places of worship they must wear masks, must reduce group sizes by 50%, I think that all should be legal. Even government closing houses of worship might be warranted if they are closing all businesses with few exceptions in a very extreme circumstance. Look at the Dakotas. If they shut down all indoor everything for 2 weeks it would make sense with grocery delivery and medical care being exceptions. 1 in 1000 residents has died from covid in North Dakota. I think people will comply if it’s a finite time, well communicated, coming from someone they trust, and lifted when promised.
@KNOWITALL I can ask my sister if she feels antisemitism is rising in NYC from these incidents.
Part of the issue going on with the Jews is that DeBlasio, in NYC, put special controls on certain areas, calling them “Cluster” areas or some such nonsense. And high on the list was all the areas that were high Jewish populations with a lot of Jewish temples. But when you looked at the statistics, there were many other areas, mainly minority areas, that were even more impacted by Covid that DeBlasio was saying were okay. Cuomo backed him up as well. Another example of targeting religions and playing politics in my mind. And the reason the SCOTUS ruled as they did.
@seawulf575 That’s something I was wondering too. Are Jewish areas being singled out because they’re white and thus a safe target? Because around here some of the worst-hit areas are places with a lot of non-white residents. But implying that communities of color are not following the rules or that the high rate of spread is due to their choices is “racist”. Doesn’t seem to be a problem making the same accusations about these Jewish communities.
@Demosthenes I’m looking for the link I saw on this very topic. If I can find it again, I’ll post it. But the numbers showed Latino communities and Black communities that were impacted far (FAR) more than the Jewish areas. Yet they only targeted the Jewish areas.
Look who’s upset, imagining that black people are getting away with something. So predictable. They just can’t help themselves.
@seawulf575 For the sake of all that is good read my answers to KNOWITALL. “Jewish” areas were singled out because the outbreaks were there and they were ignoring the pandemic initially taking no precautions. Cuomo and DiBlasio has already reduced restrictions without the court case, because the case numbers were coming down.
Calling these places “Jewish” is like calling Amish communities Christian.
This is the same as Democrats calling curfews during BLM protests the beginning of Hitler.
@Call_Me_Jay No one said anything about black people; I was thinking mainly of Latino communities around here (I have observed large gatherings still going on specifically) and I am Latino myself, so nice try.
@JLeslie I did read them. I’m not so concerned with the religious label but concerned to make sure that these restrictions were not unfairly targeting specific communities and ignoring others where there were similar outbreaks. If the restrictions target everyone fairly, then I don’t see a problem with them, per my original answer to the OP.
@Call_Me_Jay I’m assuming you are talking about me. But your reading comprehension is just as skewed as your views. I’m talking about tyranny, not trying to get blacks in trouble. I’m talking about taking proper measures to make sure they (and others) are safe from the Covid…measures that aren’t being taken by stupid Democrat politicians. But apparently it is YOU that really wants to hurt the blacks. So predictable. Some people just can’t help themselves.
@Demosthenes I don’t want people unfairly singled out either. These people single themselves out. The governor and mayor might have named them specifically in their orders (I don’t know if they did) to make sure those groups were listening and understood the orders also applied to them.
Most churches and Temples in NYC simply complied. The Pope was in the center of an early hot spot, Italy, so the messaging from the Vatican was already to not hold mass for the safety of everyone. Most synagogues are going to comply with any health requests without resistance. Roughly 30% of NYC is Catholic, 10% Jewish, 25% not affiliated. The ultra-orthodox we are discussing is an extremely small part of the 10%. So, already 65% of NYC had no qualms about the initial shut down of religious services. The other 35% still had a high percentage of wanting be compliant and safe. The ultra-orthodox were singled out because they weren’t cooperating like everyone else.
Think about it like this, if Israel was telling the Haredi in Israel to stop having weddings and religious services because it’s spreading covid would you think it’s anti-Semitic? In this case I trust all leaders in NY to be the same as Israeli leaders.
The Hasidics in NYC were having funerals with hundreds of attendees, in the middle of the summer when everything was supposed to be shut down. That didn’t help their cause.
People around the country might not realize how Jewish NYC is. In NY, being Jewish is like being Italian, Irish, German, name any group that has been here a long time. There have been many Jewish Mayors in New York. I don’t think religion is a big consideration regarding NYC politicians as long as they don’t wear religion on their sleeve.
The old stat used to be 50% of whites in NYC were Jewish, I don’t know what it is now. Most Jewish New Yorkers aren’t going to be quick to accuse their leaders, especially not Italians like Cuomo or DiBlasio, of being antisemitic.
@Demosthenes Ultra-orthodox Jewish areas aren’t perceived as “white” in my opinion. Not mainstream American majority white the way it is used regarding American culture and the white majority. I’d take it as far to say as a Jewish person I never group myself in with “whites” when talking about minorities, because Jews have enough antisemitism to worry about that we never forget we are a religious minority. At the same time I understand I am white and get to skate by as part of the majority in most instances and as I just wrote, in NYC being Jewish is just one of the many ethnic groups in that city.
@jca2 Interesting about the parks. I never thought about it before.
@JLeslie: That article gives interesting details about Jewish population.
@JLeslie So couldn’t the CDC meet with ultra Orthodox rabbi’s to find a mutually acceptable compromise?
I think most Christians in my area are okay with online options but its not ideal. Do any of you know if temple is available online?
@KNOWITALL The YouTube link shows that they started to compromise and be more careful, and the narrator suggests that more efforts need to be made to bridge communications. Just like even the more extreme Christian sects, even within those groups there are people who will be more cautious and people who won’t. A lot of the ultra-orthodox are probably paranoid about outsiders trying to take away their religious rights and a lot of them don’t watch TV and probably don’t even read mainstream news. They are likely very prone to conspiracy theories and false gossip. I think sinister groups revive these stories and dwell on them to promote their POV and divide the country. It seems to me like compromises have been made for the most part, but there are also lingering problems. The community had a second spike in cases I remember.
When I read some of the Wikipedia information it wasn’t clear to me just how many are in NYC, or Brooklyn to be more exact. My cousin (not really related, long story) is modern orthodox and lives in Brooklyn, she might be more in tune with it all. I’m not in touch with her, but my sister is, they lived together in high school. She was raised like me, not much religion at all.
She actually is a funeral director and of course she was overwhelmed with deaths in March and April, and I don’t think my sister has talked to her much since the beginning of the whole covid thing.
@KNOWITALL Temples and synagogues – especially Orthodox – couldn’t work online.
First, there are orthodox rules about using electricity (turning things off and on) on the sabbath – that’s considered “work”. Even moving a mouse to redraw a screen is not ‘legal’ to the ultra-religious. Further, the act of a screen being displayed is considered ‘writing’ which is also not allowed on Sabbath.
Second, many of the ultra-orthodox communities simply disallow the internet because they feel it is ‘worldly’ and could distract religious people from their fervent judaism.
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@elbanditoroso Great point about the electricity and working. Ugh. I failed to mention it in my response.
It’s another thing that people don’t realize around the country regarding the huge presence of Jews in NYC. There are still sabbath elevators in lots of residential building and hospitals in NYC. I’m just wondering now if maybe my sister’s building leaves it on all week now so people don’t have to touch the buttons? That would be good during covid.
If you ever want to learn about the hypocrisies of Orthodox Jewish practice, get this book from Amazon.
I own a copy – it’s an interesting point of view.
@elbanditoroso I have a friend in TN who plays tennis on Saturdays during the summer with an orthodox friend, and my friend has to bring the guy’s tennis racket, because bringing the racket would be work. LOL. Craziness. Some of the traditions I like though, I worked the elevators at the Boca Raton hotel for a couple days over some holiday several years ago, maybe it was Passover. What I like is how patient and calm the orthodox seem. They waited patiently, were friendly and grateful we were there to help.
Regarding covid, I would say God, G-d, will understand. We are allowed to break kosher rules for health. Pregnant women, diabetics, older people, babies, can eat during Yom Kippur, and similarly, breaking almost any rule for health should be ok in my view. Not that they should be easily broken, but still breakable none the less. They are loathe to do it though, people will leave loved ones in the hospital alone an extra two days to not travel on a subway on the sabbath and hospitals go along with it.
My point is, changing how they observe to protect the health of themselves and their community should be seen as within God’s law in my opinion. But who am I to say.
I think they were foolish.
OP says. This is in General. Please get back on topic.
@elbanditoroso Thanks. Christianity, esp old school, was-is much the same. I googled but didnt see any ‘ultra orthodox’ so that’s probably why.
Like my mom, some will go if the doirs are unlocked and leave the rest up to God.
A few articles addressed the ‘sanctity of life’ aspect of the Jewish religion as a loophole to going but I’m not familiar enough to debate the legitimacy of that argument.
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