Should there be a fine for people who claim not to have Covid symptoms and yet are found to have lied before boarding flights?

Probably, but who enforces and who assesses the fine? How does the world find out?

It would be nice if people were honest (ha ha ha) but that doesn’t seem to be the way the world operates these days.

I think that way to live nowadays is to be defensive always, because a lot people are pieces of shit.

My kids have flown to Hawaii and they had to be tested before boarding the flight. I’m not sure what proof they had to show that they were negative; presumably it was recorded.

I’ve heard that some airlines give a rapid test in the airport.

I know very little about Covid, but I feel like this person didn’t just have symptoms, he was in full blown Covid. Of course in his case he died and can’t be fined. I don’t think his wife or family should be fined as you can’t control what other people do.
In other cases, I’m not sure how you can force a person to pay a fine unless you block them from air travel until it is paid.
It does suck that this traveler knowingly boarded a plane with Covid, but I feel like there would be so few people doing this that it wouldn’t be worth it.

No.

Involuntary manslaughter charges and a wrongful death law suit.

I don’t know what to think.

I did a Q about people dismissing covid symptoms as a regular cold and going about their every day businesses risking infecting people. I recently started a Facebook thread where a friend who works in a hospital said one good thing about covid is now there is zero tolerance for staff members coming in with any sort of illness. She told my her hospital has always been pretty good about it, but now it’s very strict and hopefully other businesses are in the same frame of mind.

A close friend of one of my very close friends came up to The Villages (by coincidence) for a vacation to get away from all the strict rules in her county. She has a house here. Her boyfriend was mildly sick at the time. A day or two here and she became sick too, tested positive for covid, and so she headed back to South Florida. I’m guessing she wanted to be home where she usually lives if she’s sick. You can be sure at minimum she had to stop for a bathroom break on the drive. She was hospitalized not long after getting home and died three days later.

It seems to me if you know for sure you have covid then a fine makes sense. I hope airlines are not charging for changing flights to a later date. Are they?

@janbb I wonder if, let’s say you’re tested on Monday for a Thursday flight (with a few days leeway to get the results) and the test is negative, if you could still have the Covid and by Thursday flight time you’re experiencing symptoms and then are positive. Still, with the negative test result, when the airline asks if you’re experiencing symptoms, the answer should be “yes.”

@JLeslie: Good question about whether or not they charge for changing flights to a later date.

@jca2 I went to the doctor last week and half the staff no masks, one of them sneezed without covering her mouth. I was so pissed. One of the papers I signed was I would pay for an appointment if I didn’t give 24 hours cancellation ahead of time. I felt like telling them to take that paper and shove it in the time of covid, but was trying to stay away from the woman at the front desk with her mask below her nose. I would hope if someone calls and says I feel sick they don’t actually charge them.

The airlines are asking for trouble if they are still asking for $150 change fee and to pay for a higher priced flight.

@jca2 After you get the test, you are supposed to isolate until you get the results and presumably til you get on the plane. That doesn’t mean that everybody does. I think they also take your temp before you get on the flight; again not necessarily a definite indicator.

I definitely agree you should not get on a flight with any symptoms and I don’t plan to fly until I am vaccinated.

@JLeslie I read some months ago that the airlines are not charging change fees.

@janbb: Yeah, but can you be negative on a Monday without symptoms and still have the virus in your body, so by Thursday you’d be symptomatic? Let’s say the passenger had no fever but still had other symptoms, with his negative test results in hand. I am not sure if that’s possible.

@jca2 You can definitely be negative Monday and contagious Thursday. You can definitely be negative on a rapid test Monday and starting to feel sick Thursday. It’s still better than nothing. Are the airlines requiring a PCR test?

A friend of mine did all the testing requirements for flying to CT and she said no one checked anything. Her impression was it’s all honor system. Maybe some airlines or states are more thorough.

@JLeslie: So I guess then, they are relying on the honor system for someone like the dead passenger who must have shown a negative test result on paper but was feeling symptomatic and lied that he felt well when he checked in at the airline.

@JLeslie The one my kids took was a nasal swab they did themselves and sent off so not the gold standard although my DIL gets a PCR every week at work.

@jca2 Hopefully, the mask rule and spacing passengers helped to limit any spread of the virus. It would be interesting if the journalists follow up on whether anyone else on the flight caught it.

How would such a system work? Who would determine if passenger had lied, and who would levy the fines?

While I understand that people see a case like this and want to do something. However, any possible system for fining/punishing cases like this would be ineffective, unfair, and require giving institutions power beyond what most people are comfortable with.

@_____ : I’m not arguing for it to be put in place. Just throwing out a question and looking for opinions.

My kids have flown to Hawaii and they had to be tested before boarding the flight.

I think that may be a Hawaii rule. They have been able to keep the virus at bay better than all other states. Obviously the isolation helps.

For the seven-day period ending Dec 20, Hawaii had 10.3 new cases per day per 100,000 population.

For comparison, the worst numbers right now are Tennessee at 135.4. The median is 58 (half the states are doing worse, half are better).

This is why you should um…. Not get on an airplane right now.

There should certainly be criminal charges: if someone gets sick and dies as a result of a person lying about symptoms then they should be charged with negligent homicide. If it just makes someone else sick they should be charged with criminal gross negligence. If they board a plane they should be charged with domestic terrorism, wilful intent to distribute a biological agent.

They of course should be liable in civil court for the damages their recklessness has inflicted on others.

^ Ok, I’ll bite. How would such a system work? Who would determine if passenger had lied, and who would investigate homicide case? Is there a new agency? Is this slapped onto the Patriot Act?

If it’s a flight it would be the FBI or Department of Homeland Security. If it’s state/local then it would be handled the same as if someone were driving drunk the wrong direction down the highway. It’s reckless endangerment of other people. The appropriate state/local authorities would open an investigation, interview witnesses and press charges.

If they took this thing seriously, I think they wouldn’t have to do a lot of enforcement.

@gorillapaws – So you’re ok with expanding FBI/DHS so that they are investigating citizens to determine if they are a being truthful about perceived health symptoms? I’m serious – how exactly would this work? And are you in favor of these governmental agencies in general and wish for them to play a larger role?

@_____ ”...you’re ok with expanding FBI/DHS so that they are investigating citizens to determine if they are a being truthful about perceived health symptoms?”

They already have the authority to enforce laws on the books. Knowingly spreading a fatal disease on a flight is an act of terrorism. In what way is that different than opening a jar of anthrax (except in this case it can spread to the community whereas Anthrax would be limited to just the people on the flight)?

@gorillapaws: “They already have the authority to enforce laws on the books. Knowingly spreading a fatal disease on a flight is an act of terrorism. In what way is that different than opening a jar of anthrax (except in this case it can spread to the community whereas Anthrax would be limited to just the people on the flight)?”

I feel as though we’re talking past each other.

Let’s try this.

I’m sick. I have a fever that comes and goes and I suspect it’s a cold. I need to fly to Baltimore for my job. It turns out that I had Covid-19 and didn’t know it. Someone came down with Covid after the flight and died.

Walk me through how you believe this should be handled by the FBI/DHS. Be specific. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

@_____ ”...I’m sick. I have a fever that comes and goes…”

There should be a form for flying that says something to the effect of:

”UNDER PENALTY OF LAW, Answering any of these questions falsely will result in criminal prosecution up to and including charges of DOMESTIC TERRORISM. Have you ever:
1) Experience a temperature higher than 100F?
2)
3)
...”

So in your hypothetical, you’d lie on this form? If you happened to infect anyone and the contract tracing points back to you, then they should absolutely investigate you. Getting on the plane in that state isn’t much different than going to the mall, putting on a blindfold and shooting in arbitrary directions. Sure you may not kill anyone, but it’s fucking crazy and it’s absolutely terrorizing the community.

“I need to fly to Baltimore for my job.”

No you don’t. Unless your job involves inventing a vaccine or figuring out how to produce/distribute it faster, then you don’t NEED to fly. You can drive, swim, bike, cross-country ski or travel by horse.

@_____ Why are you flying when you are sick?! I don’t care what your sick with. Maybe as a society we can stop doing that.

I think the better question is why are we allowing anyone to ask in the first place? There are HIPPA laws that make our medical history private. Why are we now being forced to air them out? Gee…why don’t we ask if they have herpes or HIV or HPV or anything else?

@gorillapaws: “So in your hypothetical, you’d lie on this form? If you happened to infect anyone and the contract tracing points back to you, then they should absolutely investigate you.”

Let’s say my fever was 99.5, and the symptoms were vague enough that “lying” would be generous.

Since you won’t provide the details of how your police-state scenario works, I’m going to try playing it out for you, I guess. I can only suspect how you’d like to this to work if you’re going to keep it a secret. I’m guessing….

- Person A dies two weeks after the flight
– The FBI/DHS does “contact tracing” for everyone Person A has had contact with in the past 2 weeks.
– The FBI/DHS somehow determine that Person A must have contacted Covid-19 during Flight 282 to Baltimore. * Note: I’m still doubtful that this is possible, and this is very problematic in this scenario.
– The FBI/DHS gets access to the medical records of everyone on Flight 282.
– They see that I got tested for Covid-19 two days after the flight and tested positive.
– I’m arrested and charged with domestic terrorism.

Even in this theoretical, it’s clear that objectively pinpointing me as the culprit is impossible. Additionally, it is so violating that any potential benefit (saving lives) is offset by handing over additional rights to entities that shouldn’t have them. The whole GW Bush “terrorism”/Patriot Act scenario fits nicely into this whole discussion.

Additionally, your intention of trying to bring awareness by setting an example has the potential to have negative public health effects, like a reduction in willingness to get tested or seek medical help for fear of spending life in prison or getting a knock on the door by jackbooted federal agencies.

And this is just one possible scenario. I can’t come up with any scenario in which there is any benefit in willingly risking public health and an expanded police state.

@gorillapaws: “No you don’t. Unless your job involves inventing a vaccine or figuring out how to produce/distribute it faster, then you don’t NEED to fly. You can drive, swim, bike, cross-country ski or travel by horse.”

Of course I need to fly to Baltimore in this scenario. I live in the US and will lose my job, and therefore my health insurance and my house. My family will be living on the streets. Both political parties have decided that it up to me to decide whether it’s worth flying to Baltimore or moving into a car.

NOTE: This is purely theoretical. I don’t actually fly for work. But I know many people who do. Daily.

@JLeslie: “Why are you flying when you are sick?! I don’t care what your sick with. Maybe as a society we can stop doing that.”

Of course. But the Democrats and Republicans want me to fly to keep my job, health insurance, food, shelter, etc.

@JLeslie In the real world people have to go to work when they are sick. Sometimes that means you have to get on a plane sick and go to a meeting.

@chyna And sometimes people get sick on vacation and have to be on their flight home. That happened to me when we went to Costa Rica.

Obviously it’s different in the pandemic and if you have Covid symptoms but to say that people should never fly sick is a reductio ad absurdum.

@_____ They can trace the genetic tree of the virus to determine the source I believe. It would be the CDC that does the tracing and they would refer anyone suspected of lying on the sheet to the FBI/DHS. Those agencies could conduct interviews with people you interact with to see if you were symptomatic prior to your flight, obtain a warrant for your medical records, review any camera footage of you, review your banking/credit-card transactions for purchases like over-the-counter cold/flu remedies.

We just had 9/11 yesterday, we’re in the middle of another today, and tomorrow it will happen again. People shouldn’t be flying on planes if they’re not in perfect physical health. Hell if they squeak out a fart that smells a little too stinky, they should drive instead. Very little travel is actually necessary.

“Of course I need to fly to Baltimore in this scenario. I live in the US and will lose my job, and therefore my health insurance and my house. My family will be living on the streets.”

If your boss asked you to shoot three strangers in the head or he’d fire you, take away your healthcare and throw you out on the streets, do you do it? Sorry but that’s not acceptable. Travel is basically completely unnecessary right now.

@gorillapaws: “They can trace the genetic tree of the virus to determine the source I believe. It would be the CDC that does the tracing and they would refer anyone suspected of lying on the sheet to the FBI/DHS. Those agencies could conduct interviews with people you interact with to see if you were symptomatic prior to your flight, obtain a warrant for your medical records, review any camera footage of you, review your banking/credit-card transactions for purchases like over-the-counter cold/flu remedies.”

Then I’m just going to completely disagree. I’m not willing to endorse the above in any way. And like I said – it would likely lead to less-than-desired effects on human behavior and not solve what you’re attempting to solve.

While we might agree on some economic issues (you’re open to some Social Democratic reforms), we are on polar opposites on the authoritarian/libertarian axis. The chasm is so great here, I’m just going to wrap up with an “I disagree”. But thanks for explaining your position.

@_____ ”...we are on polar opposites on the authoritarian/libertarian axis.”

I’m generally against authoritarianism. That said, pandemics are a very special situation and the “fuck you! I do what I want! The rules don’t apply to me…” attitude has killed stadiums full of Americans in a pretty horrific manner (mostly the working poor). Ultimately all of those deaths can be traced to the actions of just a few selfish people in the early days. I understand just how terrifying an exponential growth curve is, and how much scarier a virus is (because it lingers, spreads exponentially, mutates, and exploits patterns of human selfishness) than any other WMD ever could be.

He died on the flight? He had to have been obviously, blatantly sick….unless he died of some other cause, like a heart attack.

@chyna And, a lot of time they don’t really have to. When you really have to you have to, maybe, but people go to work every day sick because of an idiot manager making them, not because they needed the money and not because it was really so dire that they missed work that day. It’s a cultural problem in our country and ignorance about infectious disease. We still even to this day with covid floating around have people thinking if they don’t have a fever they aren’t contagious.

Maybe if companies didn’t stretch workers so thin, which in some cases is abusive, there would be less need for forcing staff to come in when sick.

A friend of mine who works in a very large Texas hospital said her hospital has always been pretty good about advising staff to stay home when sick, but now with covid it’s zero tolerance. You don’t feel right you stay home. She’s thrilled. She’s thrilled not to have to think about some coworker dragging themselves in while sick and getting her sick.

We are talking about a plane full of people. Stay another day. Supermarket staff and waitresses touching and breathing on dozens of customers and items.

March 11 I went to a local restaurant for dinner and as the waitress took my order she was breathing out of her mouth. I asked her, “are you sick?” Like I always do, and she replied, “yes.” This was when people were really becoming aware of covid. I asked her to please have someone else serve our food. She said, “my boss wouldn’t let me leave.” The place was not busy. He risked his whole staff and customers catching her illness. Her boss was just standing there watching the dining room. Doesn’t matter if it’s a cold or covid in my mind. I live where tons of people are higher risk. A cold for a cancer patient can be really bad. I wrote the HQ of the restaurant.

I’m tired of that. Even if it happened 50% less we might save 10,000–20,000 lives every year. No one seems to care. No more stranger handshake and try to stay home when you’re sick. Really it could save thousands of lives and thousands of dollars in medical costs on society.

I’m not completely nuts about it. If someone has a cold (prior to covid) then on their 5th day of being sick I assume they are not easily contagious, but day 1–2-3, keep your distance. At least people should put on a mask and keep their hands clean to try to protect others.

It will never be perfect, but we can set an expectation and get rid of being so rigid when not necessary.

@JLeslie ”...thousands of dollars in medical costs on society.”

You’re missing a whole lot of zeros on that. That number is in the $ Billions for sure. And I completely agree with what you’re saying.

@JLeslie You just argued my point for me. Thanks.

@chyna I don’t see how, but go ahead and explain. Plenty of people feel pressure to do things as scheduled when it is not necessary or have some idea that they will be judged if they miss a day, and it is true some do judge.

@janbb If you could have changed your flight for free and your job expected sick people to stay home, and society had an expectation for you not to fly when sick, would you have paid the extra day at the hotel if it were available? Or, you prefer to fly sick? I assume that wasn’t fun to be sick on the plane anyway. Maybe in that instance you rather come home, but what if you were flying to see your son? Fly there and risk all the people on the plane and getting your son sick? Or, be able to change your ticket for free and postpone a day or two.

I just think we could be better as a society within reason to protect each other and to give ourselves more reasonable expectations. Especially people who can actually work from home, why would we ever demand they be at the office when sick? People are less contagious with each day with most illnesses. Waiting a day could reduce chances of transmission.

In Japan people put on a mask when they are sick and let people know to distance from them if they do go to work.

@JLeslie I’m guessing that most of us don’t consider getting a cold the start of World War 3. I do what I can to stay away from people with colds but I don’t think they have to stop their lives or lose pay if they have one.

@janbb Exactly my point. They don’t think it is a big deal or feel pressure to perform.

@JLeslie, you made @chyna’s point with these statements:
”Maybe if companies didn’t stretch workers so thin, which in some cases is abusive, there would be less need for forcing staff to come in when sick.”

and

”I asked her to please have someone else serve our food. She said, ‘my boss wouldn’t let me leave.’ “

You are fortunate that feeding your kids and/or paying your rent is not subject to the whims of someone who can replace you without a qualm. That is the definition of privilege.

@canidmajor The manager finally let her leave, probably because I spoke up, and the company wrote me back and said they would speak to the manager. Two days later all companies were sending out emails and advertising about how they care about a safe environment for their staff and customers. Yeah sure.

Ever heard of a labor union? They organize and speak up so labor doesn’t get abused. If companies are stretching staff thin, then maybe there needs to be push back. Maybe more part-timers who can work per diem to fill in, or more cross training in companies to be able to cover. People die, get hurt, have emergencies, it’s crazy to run so thin that the business falls apart if one person doesn’t make it to work. Very small business I understand the problem, but larger companies, no.

Enough with the needing money, that is not what I am talking about at all. I completely empathize with people who need to work to pay their bills and I am not talking about them. You are deflecting. I know cable news has obsessed about that for political reasons, and I am glad attention has been brought to it, but there is another large percentage of people who do not have that problem if they miss a day and because of cultural norms they are still going to work and we should be able to address that as a country. Other country’s do it. Ignoring the abuse managers and owners are doing as common practice is just as important as the money. I don’t need the money, but I still don’t want to commute 45 minutes with a fever and work for 8 hours and get coworker or customer Joe Smith sick who is going for chemo treatment tomorrow. It’s not just managers, it is individuals themselves who grew up feeling being sick is weakness.

We can acknowledge both problems at once. The people who can’t miss a day for financial reasons and the cultural and work pressure to work while ill.

@JLeslie you sound like a high school civics class. “Part-time wait staff unite!” Yeah. That wait person may lose hours, if not her job altogether because you complained to corporate.

You want to make a difference? Start a movement in the state legislature for worker protections. Run for city council and educate your fellow citizens. Stop patronizing the kinds of restaurants that treat their employees like this and be very public about it. Private communications make no difference, they can say anything they want to reassure you. Stuff like that.

I am not deflecting, your naïveté is blinding you to the bigger picture. You may sympathize with these workers, but you can’t empathize.

@canidmajor I don’t remember, what kind of work do/did you do?

I was clear in my message to corporate that the waitress was professional and looked fine at first glance, but it became obvious she was sick as I observed her and should not have been required to work. She didn’t get fired, that’s ridiculous. I was not complaining about her.

The restaurant is a chain all over Florida and I do believe they care about it. If I see it happen again I might think they don’t, but one incident won’t be changing my mind about the entire company.

Bullshit I don’t empathize. I have been that person. I worked in retail not able to pay my bills at one point. I also worked in retail for YEARS, that was my career, where floor coverage matters. I know the pressures to show up and the talk behind closed doors when someone calls in sick too much. I have relatives and friends who are nurses who have worked in hospitals with too many patients per nurse. I know exactly what it’s like.

Auggie’s daughter age 17 was forced to work Thanksgiving eve starting at midnight. I told her to make sure her dad drives her there and back and to insist she sleep as soon as she gets home or she’ll have a high chance of getting sick. She took my advice and had her dad drive her thankfully. She also did get sick a few days later. How did I know? I have lived the life of total exhaustion from retail work. For years I’ve been saying employees should refuse to work those crazy Black Friday hours that were being put into place the last ten years. I’m actually not in favor of unions usually, but am in favor of employees standing up against unreasonable requirements. Companies should be grateful when employees do it without forming or joining a union.

Oh, ffs, @JLeslie, the work I did or didn’t do has no bearing on this, but for your edification, I had decades in retail as a floor grunt and hospitality, bar tending, cocktailing, and regular waiting.

And your naïveté is still evident. “I’m not actually in favor of unions…” this and “Companies should be grateful…” that. Things are different than they were 20–30 years ago for minimum wage workers. You complain to corporate, you write bad reviews on line, all these things can hurt the workers that don’t have protection. Work publicly to enhance the lives of these people instead of just bitching in private or anonymously. That will make a difference.

And really, trying to invoke Auggie to try to enhance your credibility is just silly.

And I’m out.

@JLeslie: “I’m actually not in favor of unions usually”

What the christ?