What ideas do you have for a presentation on Birthright Citizenship?

I don’t have a strong feeling one way or another, but I think that any discussion has to take into account the ramifications of changing current policy – who benefits, who suffers, does this have long-term economic repercussions both overseas and here.

The other aspect of the question: Is the current system really ‘broken’ as Trump was saying? Or was that an easy low-hanging fruit argument that overstated the possibility of a problem?

You have to start there,

@elbanditoroso I like the question about who would get hurt or benefit by a policy change.

I was thinking I would look up how many children are born to parents who are here without papers, how many with green cards, etc. I tried to look that up last time and I never found the information easily. Back then I was creating the entire presentation and had a time crunch. I should try again since all I am doing is amending the presentation and have the time to research more.

“Birthright Citizenship is automatic citizenship where you are born.”

For the record, this is not true as far as US law is concerned. Being born in the US is sufficient for birthright citizenship, but it is not necessary for it. Birthright citizenship can also be granted to children born outside of the US based on their parentage. The circumstances matter, but the allowances are pretty broad.

The technical terms for these two ways of obtaining citizenship are jus soli (“right of soil”) and jus sanguinis (“right of blood”). It is very common for people to use the term “birthright citizenship” to refer to jus soli, but US law clearly defines birthright citizenship as citizenship that is obtained automatically due to the circumstances of one’s birth (as opposed to citizenship obtained through naturalization).

Note that I said “due to the circumstances of one’s birth” and not “at the time of one’s birth.” This is because birthright citizenship can be granted retroactively by statute (just as naturalization can be granted by statute without making people go through the normal process). What matters is whether or not citizenship is granted based on the conditions surrounding a person’s birth.

@SavoirFaire I am specifically talking about getting citizenship via Jus Soli. I know the US also has blood right citizenship for children born outside of the US. I specify the definitions in the presentation, but thanks for mentioning it.

Can you explain what this is? I have never heard about this before, or maybe I have but the wording is different.

@Mimishu1995 In America if someone is born here they are automatically citizens. For example, let’s say you were living in America with your spouse for a year on a work assignment or you both were here on a student visa and during that time you had a baby. Your baby would be American. Even if you were here without proper documentation and living here illegally your baby would be American if it is born on American soil.

Most countries in the Americas that’s the case, while most of Europe and Asia it isn’t.

Oh ok, thanks for the explanation.

My country has a similar policy about children. If you are born in Vietnam you are a Vietnamese, regardless of whether your parents are Vietnamese or not, but on the condition that your parents have been accepted as a Vietnamese. And that mostly means at least one of your parents have to be a Vietnamese. Vietnamese in other countries are still considered Vietnamese, as well as their children, as long as they still retain their citizen right.

@Mimishu1995 What if an American couple has a baby there because they are on vacation for 6 months. Then would the baby be Vietnamese and do you think the baby should be Vietnamese?

@JLeslie according to the law, they are “on vacation”, so they aren’t registered as Vietnamese, so in turn the child won’t be consider a Vietnamese. I personally agree with the law. If the parents are only here for vacation and then go away to their homeland, then it would be a stretch to make the child Vietnamese, because we aren’t sure if the child would have an attachment to the country or identify as a Vietnamese.

@Mimishu1995 One last question. If someone is German and becomes a Vietnamese citizen by living there many years is it odd to you if they call themselves Vietnamese? Would they say “I’m Vietnamese” as readily as saying “I’m German?” Or, would they more likely say “I’m a Vietnamese citizen.” Subtle difference.

@JLeslie This is more of a question of morality than a question of the law :) This will depend on how open people are to foreigners. Some people may not care but other people wouldn’t like it because the German doesn’t look Vietnamese. If I was to meet a German like that, I would be surprised and ask for more details, then I would say “ok” and move on.

There was actually a hypothetical story about a similar situation in my textbook a long time ago. It was about a girl who identified as a Vietnamese but her dad was American and she lived in America. My teacher said she was still accepted by the law as a Vietnamese since her mom was a Vietnamese, but she didn’t go into detail about the moral perception of the general public. As a child I didn’t accept the teacher’s explanation, but now I just stop taking that seriously.

@Mimishu1995 So interesting! An attachment to the country is legal criteria? So the parents status is the child’s citizenship determining factor.

@KNOWITALL No, not a legal criteria. I just mean that I personally think it’s better for the child to have at least some emotional attachment to the country to get the citizenship.

@Mimishu1995 In America some television shows when I was a child emphasized that Korean women who had a baby with an American during the Korean War should be allowed to come to America, because the baby would never be accepted well in Korea. I don’t know if it is similar in Vietnam regarding whether people there who are half American and half Vietnamese. Korea might be very different now also, this was over 60 years ago.

So many Vietnamese people were allowed into America because of what happened there that I don’t know if it was an issue to have to plead to let a woman or child into America back then.

@JLeslie I don’t know of anything like that in Vietnam, unless we’re talking about Vietnamese defectors who ran away from the country after the loss of America in the Vietnam war. I don’t know about their legal rights here but morally speaking, they aren’t accepted as Vietnamese by most Vietnamese here, and they most likely don’t consider themselves Vietnamese either. To most Vietnamese, the defectors represent a generation of traitors who were willing to sell their fellow countrymen for American money. To me personally, they are mostly delusional old people who just want a war for no reason. I’ve seen them posting provocative videos on Youtube and I’m like “dude, why do you want a war when the entire world is literally struggling for peace?”

Apparently those people make up an entire subculture in America. They hold meetings, distribute media, celebrating “important” dates, going on protests, posting blogs and videos talking about how great 1960s Saigon was and how everyone should start a war to bring the glory day back. They even have their own flag. I’m not sure if any of you here have seen them protest because I saw videos of them protesting quite publicly on the street, but they are very easy to spot. Their flag looks something like this

Think of them as the equivalent of the Confederate party in America.

@Mimishu1995 I was talking about the war in your country that was in the early 1970’s. Many Vietnamese came to America right after that, I think it was in1975 over 100,000 Vietnamese came in as refugees, but then quickly after that the US was denying entry. It’s a messy subject. Most of America regrets what happened in Vietnam and what happened to the Vietnamese people and our own soldiers.

Suggestions here were very helpful! The discussion was great. Most interesting was this group is varying degrees of being politically liberal and many of them felt there should be some more rules about automatic citizenship when born here. Most commonly they felt babies born to people on vacation should not be included. Many were unsure of their opinions for people here on working visas and other temporary visas.

@JLeslie I don’t like any of those “confederate” Vietnamese, but I agree that it was sad that they were denied entry to the US. They were rejected by their own country, and now they got rejected by the country of their dream. Not to mention not all refugees carried that “confederate” mindset when they ran away. A lot of them were genuinely oppressed by the government and they just wanted a place where they could live peacefully. I wonder how they are doing now.

@Mimishu1995 I know quite a few Vietnamese here and they long for their homeland, and many go back to visit sometimes.
But many worked for the embassy or with the Americans and when the North invaded, they were going to be killed or they had to flee. The north had no sympathy.
One family I know very well basically left in the night on one of the last planes out from the embassy, with pretty much what they could carry. A very high class family with a Monsignor uncle in Rome, that invited them to stay with him until they could get to America.
If it helps you, they are extremely successful here and very happy, yet they struggle to maintain their culture and language. I’ve met Vietnamese who can’t speak Vietnamese, too. We also have a huge gathering each year in my state, for Marian Days in Carthage, MO, which is a reunion of types for all Vietnamese all over the US.

I will admit to being a bit taken aback by your statement “I don’t like any of those ‘confederate’ Vietnamese”. Does that mean you don’t like anyone who worked with the Americans during the invasion, or you just don’t like Vietnamese who choose to live in other countries, or what does that mean?

@KNOWITALL Interesting that the Vietnamese-Americans you know don’t speak Vietnamese. I know you are younger then me, so maybe it is the second generation you are speaking of, but I grew up in an area that had a large amount of Vietnamese people, and all of my peers spoke Vietnamese. Maybe part of the reason is there was a big community in the DC area where I grew up, so they were able to use the language all of the time.

My friends usually were the children of the people who who came here; my friends were the first generation born in America. So, usually both parents were Vietnamese also. Children almost never learn their father’s language, are the people you know Vietnamese on both sides of their family?

Awesome family parties by the way. Everyone danced, great dance music, and lots of food, lots of fun.

@KNOWITALL I will admit to being a bit taken aback by your statement “I don’t like any of those ‘confederate’ Vietnamese”.

Read my post above that. I explained what I meant by “confederate”. And that’s obviously not all Vietnamese who fled.

@JLeslie The ones here all speak Vietnamese but they were not born here, and yes all full Vietnamese. The younger generations and some in more urban cities are the ones who sometimes do not speak the language.

Some families in general are more traditional while others are more modern. One person from Cali told me it’s also safer to conform to American standards, dress, speech, etc… rather than be perceived as too ‘foreign’. California Vietnamese are quite interesting as a group and I felt very comfortable with them, but there’s something magical about traditional families, too. It’s quite a beautiful, patriarchal culture in many ways.

I’ve mentioned before that many families here do stick together as far as events, bowling night, religious/ cultural celebrations like weddings. But many families come here that are practicing Catholics, the church helped facilitate their coming here, and usually one younger son is dedicated to church service.

Yes, they have great parties for sure and wonderful food. Dried bbq squid and Budweiser were at many a party, along with the actual dishes.

@Mimishu1995 I’m still a little confused about the term confederate and your emotional response to that, but it’s not a big deal.