What exactly is wrong with the Cyber Ninja effort in Arizona?

It is a company run by a pro-drumpf, qAnon conspiracy theorist, a company with zero experience with elections or ballot counting, who tried to keep the “methods” they are using a “trade secret”, and who were already seen using blue and black markers that can be used to alter ballots.

They are questionable people, with questionable methods, and questionable motivations.
I am going to say it outright: They are there to tamper with the ballots, and any result they come up with, should be discarded as fake.

Tell me, if BLM, or Antifa, were to conduct a ballot “audit” in, let us say, Florida, and the “result” was that Biden “won” the state, would you trust that result?
Why or why not?

@ragingloli So your only issue is that you believe it to be pro-Trump and qAnon. But tell me, does it matter? If their policies are square right up the middle, then what is the issue? It sounds as if you don’t care if ballots were tampered with, as long as they were tampered with to support the Democrats. But now you have a conspiracy theory that they are somehow, despite their transparency, trying to pull some underhanded trick in favor of Trump. And nowhere has anyone even put forth the idea that the election would or should be overthrown…just that voter fraud should be identified and eliminated going forward.

BTW, what do you care if we find and eliminate voter fraud in our country? You don’t have a dog in that fight.

@seawulf575 “So your only issue is that you believe it to be pro-Trump and qAnon.”

What a thoroughly dishonest response. The very first sentence of their answer also lists lack of experience, questionable methods, lack of transparency, and the use of markers that can alter ballots as additional problems.

“If their policies are square right up the middle”

But they aren’t. Read the whole answer.

“BTW, what do you care if we find and eliminate voter fraud in our country?”

US policy, and therefore US politics, affects the entire world.

@Irukandji
It is what he does.
Also, one of the so-called “auditors”, is a confirmed participant in the Jan. 6th capitol riot:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/anthony-kern-arizona-maricopa-county-capitol-riot_n_608cd3d3e4b046202707b08e

You don’t send a fox to guard the hen house.

They could declare Trump won by a 7,250,000 votes (more votes than the entire population of Arizona include newborns)

They have an agenda and have no business auditing anything !

@ragingloli They were unaware of the state election laws regarding blue and black markers, but they did modify their procedure rather quickly:
“We must take great care to protect the ballots and return them in the same condition we receive them. In order to protect the ballots, the following rules will be enforced:
• No food or beverages
• No white paper
• No black pens or markers
• No blue pens or markers
• No personal items”

Why are the Democrats so scared of audits? If I had nothing to hide, I would say: Bring it on!

@ragingloli I would not care who did the audit as long as their conclusions were subject to a different audit.

@Irukandji Please be specific. Do not hide behind generalities.

You guys have a standard response: Since there is zero evidence of fraud, why keep trying to dig up that evidence?

“They were unaware of the state election laws regarding blue and black markers”
See, that is precisely the problem.
Why let someone, who has no bloody idea what they are doing, do the audits?
And that is only if you buy that excuse.
Which, in light of the background of the company in question, and the people employed, I do not, and neither should you.

@ragingloli So your problem is with the company even if the proposed process meets all the tests?

The company include members that “Stormed the Capitol” on January 6th, I know you don’t see a problem with that . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Just send in the SS and Storm Troopers next to kill all the Democrats and declare Trump the Chancellor and Führer und Reichskanzler!
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You know Trump lost the election !

@crazyguy
“even if the proposed process meets all the tests”
Here is the thing: It does not.
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-elections-chief-criticizes-policies-used-in-maricopa-county-ballot-recount.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/election-experts-send-letter-department-justice-arizona-audits

@ragingloli I carefully read both of your links.

The principal takeaway for me was that there is significant concern about the possibility of physical tampering with the ballots. Even if that were done, surely the Arizona Secretary of State has records to indicate:

1. The number of ballots handed over to the State Senate.
2. The actual counts of ballots voting in different races.
3. The number of illegible and/or otherwise rejected ballots.

With such records, the Secretary of State will be able to refute whatever allegations are made.

Now, let me ask you a question: “Just why are the Democrats so afraid of an audit?”

@crazyguy “Please be specific. Do not hide behind generalities.”

I was specific: @ragingloli presented five objections to the Cyber Ninja effort and @seawulf575 pretended that they had only presented one objection. Since I was weighing in on @seawulf575‘s response and not the validity of those objections, I’m not sure how much more specific I can be. But here it is again: @ragingloli said “I have five objections,” and @seawulf575 responded “so you only have one objection” and proceeded to craft their entire answer around that false (and dishonest) premise.

The primary “wrong” in such proposals is that they are premised on the belief that defeat of bankrupt proposals and backward individuals at the polls is proof of fraud. They are EVERY ONE OF THEM measures which on their face UNNECESSARILY restrict and suppress the voting process without demonstrable need nor requirement.

@Irukandji Let me count the objections @ragingloli had in his first reply:

1.It is a company run by a pro-drumpf, qAnon conspiracy theorist” Perhaps, he is correct. Personally, I wouldn’t care if the company is headed by Biden himself, as long as all the findings include the evidence. For instance, if one of the findings is that a dozen or so ballots appear to be marked by a single individual, I would hope that images of the ballots in question are included.

2. a company with zero experience with elections or ballot counting, who tried to keep the “methods” they are using a “trade secret”

A fair criticism. The courts agreed with the criticism and forced full disclosure.

3. and who were already seen using blue and black markers that can be used to alter ballots. Again a fair criticism, that has already been addressed.

4. They are questionable people, with questionable methods, and questionable motivations. This criticism is a little general.

5. They are there to tamper with the ballots, and any result they come up with, should be discarded as fake. Talk about don’t confuse me with the facts.

When have you ever seen a person on the ballot (who lost) count these ballots? That automatically speaks to their dishonesty. Bet if it was a democrat that was counting ballots for a race he or she lost in, the right would be screaming their heads off. I know, I know. What is good for me isn’t for thee is the Republican motto.

@Pandora Welcome to the melee! Please read my answer to @Irukandji, in particular, my POINT #1.

@crazyguy
1. The first issue is that it is not an honest audit.
They could have, should have, subcontracted the process to actual experts, with experience, who are politically neutral.
But they did not do that.

Why? Because when other states did their audits by neutral experts, they did not find any evidence of foul play.

So for this, they deliberately hired a hyper-partisan, incompetent company run by a conspiracy theorist, whose activities have already shown signs of an intent to manufacture a result.

2. The second issue is that it is really easy to disseminate misinformation among a receptive audience, but next to impossible to undo it.

Propagandists have continuously spread misinformation about “voter fraud”, “hundreds of thousands of discovered illegal votes”, “illegal immigrants and dead people voting”, “voting machine manufacturers flipping thousands of votes to Biden”, Biden trying to “ban hamburgers”, etc.
And it does not matter how matter how many lawsuits they lose, how many audits showing that there was no voter fraud, even outright retractions by the various right wing news channels that initially spread these lies, people who want to believe that the election was “stolen”, will continue to believe it, because either the corrections, retractions, and debunkings, do not even reach the right wing audience, or they ignore it, or reject them as “fake news” by the “deep state”, and see those just as further “proof” that they are right.

And it will be the same in this case.
Once they release their “results”, it would not matter if a subsequent investigation exposes the audit as fraudulent, and their results as made up.
The damage will have already been done, and it would be irreversible.

@ragingloli It appears that you read only the messages directed at you. No problem – thanks to copy and paste. Here is what I stated in my response to @Irukandji.

Personally, I wouldn’t care if the company is headed by Biden himself, as long as all the findings include the evidence. For instance, if one of the findings is that a dozen or so ballots appear to be marked by a single individual, I would hope that images of the ballots in question are included.

Then you say: it is really easy to disseminate misinformation among a receptive audience, but next to impossible to undo it. So let me get this straight. When anybody shouts FIRE, you instantly believe that person and run for the exits?

So they show up with agenda (get 12,000 votes for Trump) and you’ll be happy happy happy @crazyguy if they meet their goal.

@ragingloli ” The second issue is that it is really easy to disseminate misinformation among a receptive audience, but next to impossible to undo it.” Funny…I have said that exact thing (or near enough). But I always point towards the true propagandists. And you are part of their receptive audience. Your answers here bear that out.

@crazyguy The five objections as I see them (and as I listed them in my original response) are:

1. The group is pro-Trump/QAnon.
2. The group lacks experience.
3. The group has questionable methods.
4. The group lacks transparency.
5. The group has used markers that can alter ballots.

“They are questionable people, with questionable methods, and questionable motivations” is more of a summary, and “they are there to tamper with the ballots, and any result they come up with, should be discarded as fake” is an opinion/conclusion.

It seems that you don’t care about the first objection, find the other four to be fair (at least fair enough to demand changes in the group’s original operating procedures), but nevertheless disagree with @ragingloli‘s opinion/conclusion (which is certainly better than disagreeing with the first objection and pretending the others don’t exist).

@Irukandji I view the five objections as being hokey, given the original question.
1. The Pro-Trump/Qanon connection is extraneous since they are performing the audit according to guidelines which they have put into writing. So how they feel or whatever other conspiracy theories are out there are curtailed. And the guidelines were put forth in the original question.
2. The group lacks experience. That may be, but again…if they are putting their operating procedures into writing and getting them approved by the state legislature, their past experience doesn’t really matter.
3. Questionable methods. This again is only based on scare tactics from left wing news outlets. They have put their procedures into writing. They are showing what they will do and how they will do it. And they have proven they are willing to change those if there are reasonable objections put forth. This was seen when they added the color of pen that could/could not be used.
4. The group lacks transparency. Again…they have put their methods into writing. They have had to get buy in from the state legislature before they can do anything. And I saw today that the Democratic AG for Arizona has the ability to have observers in the room. Not sure what isn’t transparent. Isn’t that what was considered acceptable in GA for their auditing?
5. The group has used markers that can alter ballots. That was addressed and corrected so it is nothing more than fluff to come up with another objection to paint them in a bad light.

@ragingloli‘s opinion/conclusion started and stopped with the conspiracy theory that they are rabid Pro-Trump/QAnon fanatics. After that, everything else was attempts to make that true.

@seawulf575 You, my friend, are amazing!

You’re both “amazing” in the same sense as Mr Trump and the legion of dummies promoting this latest attempt to counter reality. When you lose this one AGAIN, what will you have achieved?

@seawulf575 Is it your contention that “rabid /Pro-Trump/QAnon fanatics” are not in favor of this latest act of futile desperation? Once again, there isn’t a thimble load of logic between the 2 of you.

@stanleybmanly You are living proof of just how right I am. As is @ragingloli. As is @Irukandji.

@Pandora “When have you ever seen a person on the ballot (who lost) count these ballots? ” Huh. Let’s start with the fact that President Trump is not counting the ballots. He has not paid for those that are. They are doing this at the behest of the State of Arizona legislature.
But your comment is equally obtuse for another reason. In a case of potential voter fraud, why would you want the winner to recount? To ensure the results remain the same and to cover for any fraud?

@seawulf575 “I view the five objections as being hokey, given the original question.”

Then disagree with them. But don‘t pretend they don‘t exist. That‘s literally all I‘m saying here.

@seawulf575 “You are living proof of just how right I am.”

How does asking you to respond to the actual objections instead of pretending they don‘t exist proof of anything other than the fact that I think you should have to actually back up what you‘re saying?

P.S. I completely expect you to ignore this post since that‘s what you do when backed into a corner. Prove me wrong.

Maricopa County, Arizona, Board of Supervisors:
“You have rented out the once good name of the Arizona State Senate to grifters and con-artists, who are fundraising hard-earned money from our fellow citizens even as your contractors parade around the Coliseum, hunting for bamboo and something they call ‘kinematic artifacts’ while shining purple lights for effect.”
“... to recognize the obvious truth: your ‘auditors’ are in way over their heads. They do not have the experience necessary to conduct an audit of an election. They do not know the laws, nor the procedures, nor the best practices. It is inevitable that they will arrive at questionable conclusions. It is time to end this. For the good of the Senate, for the good of the Country and for the good of the Democratic institutions that define us as Americans.”

@zaku, help me out here. Aren’t the people on the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors (or at least some of them) potentially on the hook if fraud is exposed? So really, does it prove anything to quote their views on the audit?
In the end, let me quote something you guys on the left screamed at me on a regular basis when I said the Russia Collusion hoax was a waste of time. “If they have nothing to fear, then why worry about an investigation? It won’t show anything, right? So they should be encouraged to investigate to prove the innocence.” Okay, maybe it isn’t an exact quote…I probably paraphrased it. But you get the idea.

“Aren’t the people on the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors (or at least some of them) potentially on the hook if fraud is exposed? So really, does it prove anything to quote their views on the audit? ” NO !
The fraud is at the voter level . . . oh machines and software acted flawlessly

I know you won’t be happy until the guy with Tangerine make-up in installed as King forever !

@Tropical_Willie The fraud can easily be WAY above the voter level. It could be people on the election board creating false ballots. It could be people on the election board double counting ballots. It could be quite a few things that have absolutely nothing to do with the voters casting their ballots. In fact, the biggest issue is NOT the individuals voting.

Could could could could could could could could . . . but the audit will show Trump really lost t

The election ! (He didn’t enough people on the audit team to perjury themselves).

Read the link I posted all of that was done already but Trump isn’t happy because he lost and now New York and other states are after him and his team for criminal activity.

Supreme Court can’t any help now.

@Tropical_Willie You seem to ridicule the word “could” but then make a predictive statement that you have no evidence to back up. Amazing. Sources PLEASE!!!!

Proof is where ?

They keep looking and not finding. . . but keep hoping. . . they get nothing . . . but keep hoping
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. they have not proved anything but they COULD if there was any truth about voter fraud ! Just butt hurt fright wingers no truth.

You claimed the audit will show Trump lost. You can’t possibly know that. So show me your proof supporting that claim. Don’t tell me Trump hasn’t proven anything….show me the proof the audit will show Trump lost.

Read the link ! ^^^^^^^^^^

This is a repeat of the the audit that showed there was no fraud !

@Tropical_Willie This is not a repeat of “the the” audit that showed no fraud. It is a brand new audit in a whole different place. And you were very specific that this audit will show Trump lost. Prove it.

What do you believe the audit will show? Or let me ask you a simpler question. Do you imagine for an instant it will settle the issue for those pushing it? Is this the last attempt in the wingnut camp to assert the robbery of Dumbo? Which state is next?

@stanleybmanly I have no idea what the audit will show. But I certainly think it is worth looking into. Look at the risk factor. What are the chances of something bad happening vs the consequences if it does happen. If it has a high chance of happening with zero consequence, it doesn’t matter. If it has a decent chance of happening with some relatively serious consequence, it probably ought to be looked at. If it is unlikely it will happen, but the consequences are dire, it needs to be looked into. In this case, we are talking about election integrity…the very cornerstone of our nation. Yeah…it needs to be looked into.

THIS is where facts go to die. You folks will pull on strings until the whole bale of twine is one big knot. If this carries on, the US is ded. No trust in the voting system means no voting. It means that who ever can grab power will grab power. THIS is what happened in pre Fascist Italy. So… if you can’t stand up and see how voting needs to work, you’re fucked. Seriously. You seem to have learned nothing from history.

@sorry No, this is how things are done now. After all, the Democrats conspired with Russian operatives with an ex-British agent as an intermediary to create dirt on a political rival. And we had to give credibility to THAT even though there were zero actual verifiable facts associated with it. We also had to put up with 2 impeachment efforts that had, not only no crimes, but only opinion as the “facts”. So it has been made long, loud, and clear that facts are something you try to find AFTER you have made the accusations. You accuse someone of a crime without any actual facts and THEN open an investigation to dig around until you find any dirt at all. THAT is how things are supposed to work in a Democrat ideal world.

And I have indeed learned from our world’s past. Perhaps it is YOU that has not. We had an election that had nothing but irregularities from start to finish. We had one party unilaterally changing voting laws without that state’s legislature being involved. We had mysterious spike in several places, all at the same time, all favoring one candidate. We had numerous polling station workers come forward and swear out affidavits about things they saw that were unusual, irregular, or illegal. And with all that, we have that same political party saying everything was on the up and up. You are right…this is the sort of thing we have seen in the past. In pre-Fascist Italy, in Venezuela, in Russia…in many places that have moved too far to the left.

@seawulf575 the more you pull, the tighter the knot and the lesser you know. My gosh… you have so flexed on me, I simply don’t know where to go from here. //// help, this crazy person is twisting and telling lies and I can’t get up.

There were already voter fraud investigators and extensive procedures to detect fraud in place before the election, and they were all used and have done many checks and not detected anything like significant fraud (unless you count Trump and his lawyers blatantly lying about fraud and conning people into storming the capitol building).

But no, let’s have Republicans hire an inexperienced independent company called Cyber Ninjas with no expertise to do their own additional audit that involves putting them in a position to create new false evidence, and act like that makes any sense, and point fingers at the people who call out how ridiculous that is.

@sorry Hahahaha….you’re so FUNNY! But I notice you really don’t contribute much to any conversation I’ve seen you in so far. Might want to up your game instead of showing how you can try making it all personal.

I see that this question is alive and well in spite of my absence of over one week. I was in beautiful Kauai!

I just wonder why the usual suspects on this board are so terrified of one thorough investigation, while, at the same time (OK, I am assuming this part) being 100% in support of the Jan 6 9/11-type commission.

Somebody, please answer one question: What exactly is wrong with requiring a voter to prove his/her identity before casting a ballot?

The voter must identify him/herself to receive a ballot. Once should be enough.

@stanleybmanly apparently not if you are a registered Democrat !

Wink-Wink !

Just register as a GOP and vote against them 1

@stanleybmanly I’ll break my own rule and address your falsehood directly. For requesting a mail-in ballot in Georgia, an ID was not required until the recent law was passed.

Q: Who can vote by mail in Georgia?

A: ALL REGISTERED VOTERS are allowed to request and cast absentee ballots. No reason or excuse is required to vote absentee under a state law passed in 2005. Georgia is one of 35 states where any voter can request an absentee ballot.

Source September 17, 2020

Not anyone with a PO Box or Street address . . . You must be registered to vote which required an ID and an address. So you can’t ask for a ballot using your dog’s name.

Correct. However, if a voter votes in-person, s/he is required to re-identify him/herself!

I think the part that is missing from those supporting the way things were done in GA this past election with mail in ballots is one of timing. Yes, you have to show proof of identity when you register. Does that mean it is actually you when a mail in ballot is requested? I could request a mail in ballot for every registered voter in my house without their knowledge. I could request mail in ballots for every one of my neighbors and then just take them out of their mail boxes. The argument that ID at registration is the same makes this assumption: After I fill the ballots out and send them back, I am now all those people. I just proved it by voting. And that is backward. You are assuming the end result proves the process was sound.
I think I can speak for @crazyguy and myself when I say that we fully want to make sure each person can vote and that we count each person’s vote. We just don’t want bogus votes.

@seawulf575 I agree 100%! And you presented my positions better than I have been able to do so far. Not that I expect any made up minds to even think about what we keep saying.

How do states that do only vote by mail function then? Are all their elections a scam? https://ballotpedia.org/All-mail_voting

@sorry Part of being on a discussion board is doing research yourself.

I have no idea how Colorado and Washington (among others) satisfy themselves that the registered voter, himself or herself, is the one requesting an absentee ballot. Perhaps you would be so kind as to research this subject and advise?

I found this article where the Washington State Sect of State is addressing questions about their voting. I found her answers a mixed bag. When asked if a person in this country illegally could vote in a Washington election, her answer was along the lines of “they wouldn’t do that because they might get into trouble”. That seemed very shaky as answers go. She even said it was probable that there were illegal aliens on their rolls. She can’t say for sure, of course, but she then says it isn’t rampant. If you can’t say for sure, how can you say it isn’t rampant? And how many illegal voters do you have to have for it to be a problem? She also said that while voter fraud is illegal, it just isn’t prosecuted. Which means it could be going on all the time and they just don’t take the effort to do anything about it.
On the flip side, she did say that their absentee ballots have to be signed and they check those signatures against the ones they have on file. That, at least, helps looking at vote integrity. But as was mentioned, there could be illegals voting and they are on the registration rolls, so there would also be a signature on file. She relayed the story of the woman that registered her dog to vote. The dog is a legal voter and got a ballot sent to it. The woman showed how easily it could be done. What she did was illegal, but without intent to vote that way, so it wasn’t going to be prosecuted.

So let me get this straight; there COULD have been a half dozen to a dozen voter fraud in Washington over the less five years ?

And sounds like the GOP party members were in the lead there too !

@Tropical_Willie There is no way to quantify how much voter fraud. Because, as with all leftist things…they don’t look. They have basic things in place, but that’s it. They don’t have anything addressing illegals, they don’t have anything dealing with ballot harvesting, they don’t have anything addressing any of the real concerns…other than verifying the signature on the envelope. But by her own admission, it could be someone’s dog.

The article said . . limited and mostly GOP !

…. but the fright wingers say it could happen therefore it is everywhere !

Sounds like your democracy has been a joke all this time. Huh, Imagine that.

The process is little more than a sleazy attempt to grift the Maricopa county election results by belligerent Republican skeptics unable to accept the bitter and obvious truth. The clown show is drawing the attention and threat of prosecution of the cyber yoyos by the Department of Justice, and this fiasco is only as disgraceful as the era and reign of the fool himself.

@crazyguy I thought the part of this discussion board was to ask questions of its members. I only bother to research topics that actually interest me. The right wing Q conspiracy nutters conducting this farce in the US don’t interest me.

@sorry The best part of this great country of ours is that we can legitimately say: TO EACH HIS/HER OWN., and mean it.

@seawulf575 YET another great answer!

I read the link you provided. I found it extremely interesting. It went a long way towards confirming my long-held suspicion that Democrats are deathly afraid of any detailed audit, because it may expose serious fraud.

For instance: ’“We did see some activity in Eastern Washington, in Yakima County, in a small election in a town. It was suspect,” Wyman said. “The county auditor rejected a lot of ballots. That’s how it got on our radar, because they were seeing a higher than normal rejection rate. Couldn’t prove that there was illegal activity, but there was some pressure put on voters. I remind people to not give a ballot to a stranger.”’

Let me remind you that Yakima County is the same one mentioned earlier in the article that has a large migrant population.

Another interesting find:
“Well, it’s a big risk for them,” she said. “If someone is a non-citizen and they ever want to become a citizen, one of the questions on the citizenship test is ‘have you ever voted in the United States?’ Did you know that if you answer yes to that, you’ll be denied citizenship? People who are non-citizens and want to become a citizen know that.”

If a non-citizen has voted illegally in multiple elections, so we really expect honesty from that person on a federal form? Knowing full well that there is no way the answer can be proved false?

Signature matching is, at best, a subjective exercise since people’s signatures do evolve. For instance, wulfie, give me a signature to copy. If you can conclusively distinguish between the real signature and my copy of it, I will personally award you a prize!

@crazyguy I’m with you on the signature matching on the envelopes. But as I said, it is at least a basic thing. I suspect that anyone sending in a bunch of ballots isn’t studying and trying to copy legitimate signatures. They could have registered as 20 different people, have 20 legitimate ballots, fill them all out, and then sign them with the name on the ballot. The signature will match the one on file, but it is still voter fraud. Not to mention, it entrusts pure honesty on the part of the poll workers. And that is at the heart of a lot of the claims of voter fraud in this past election…the corrupt poll workers. Someone sends in a ballot for a Democrat and it is automatically assumed to be a good signature match by the corrupt poll worker.

@seawulf575 You’ll have noticed too that these corrupt poll workers, mail box thieves and voting dogs are all Democrats!

@crazyguy , Yes, ‘To each their own’, said the bull as he licked his nose and the horsefly nodded agreement as he landed on the fresh dung pat.

@seawulf575 I think most of our problems arise from the fact that there are more Democrats than Republicans. Therefore Democrats should win every election. The reasons they don’t are that some of them hope to do better economically some day. When they do, they want to keep at least some of the rewards accruing to them. Therefore they tend to vote Republican.

The long-term solution for Republicans is to fight wealth and income inequality without introducing socialism. That is hard, especially on a sustainable basis. The Democratic solution has always been one handout after another. That is why the living standards of the poor never seem to get much better.

@flutherother Since most poll workers make low wages, they are indeed Democrats. Not all, but enough of them that fraud on the Democrat side is much easier to perpetuate. For some strange reason, mainstream media is also friendly to Democrat and/or Establishment ideas. The last thing MSM wants is a disruptor.