How do you recognise sea-lioning and do you see it here on Fluther?

To answer the question, yes, I have observed “sealioning” and I think it is a real thing and there are some people who do it regularly. However, I think this is a term that has a high chance of being misused. From what I understand of this term, when used properly sealioning refers to insincere questioning, it’s inherently dishonest and disingenuous. It involves someone asking for clarification and evidence, but refusing to accept any provided and not responding specifically to anything provided. Their intent is to antagonize and harass, not to engage in a debate even if they claim that is their true intent.

So what’s the controversy? Well, a quick Google search reveals that “sealioning” seems to almost always be used by left-wingers and “social justice warriors” when confronted with requests to defend their positions and explain their arguments. Anyone who refuses to take the assertion of an SJW as “Gospel truth” is accused of sealioning. Of course there are bad faith requests for clarification and the way to tell is that these bad faith requests don’t engage with the material. However, I can see this term being used to stifle debate and accuse anyone who asks for clarification and evidence of “sealioning” when the real issue is that the person presenting the initial claim is unable to back up their claim, knows it, and tries to obfuscate by throwing out accusations of “sealioning”. And of course this wouldn’t apply only to those on the left or “SJW“s. I can think of creationists or political conservatives who expect you take everything they say as truth and will balk at requests to explain further or provide more evidence. It’s not limited to one side of the aisle in theory, but may be in practice from what I’m reading on Quora and other sites.

I think this is a real phenomenon, but I think it should be carefully used. Not everyone who questions what you say or asks for clarification is “sealioning”. This term assumes you can correctly identify the motivations of another person online. Sometimes you can—if the person doesn’t engage with what you say and refuses to read any links you provide, you may have a “sealion”. But I think this is also an awfully convenient way to avoid any debate or avoid digging into the evidence for your claim further.

What I find especially irritating is a related phenomenon I call “gotcha” questions, where a person seems to be asking for debate or honest answers but has only one “correct” answer in mind and when anyone responds with anything else, they will harass and goad you until you give the “correct” answer (often responding to any other answer with “nope, try again!” or something otherwise cheeky and obnoxious).

Yes, there are a few sea-lions here. I imagine you’ve noticed that already. I’d never heard the term before but it is apt. I wouldn’t call someone that publicly but if I notice it I will stop engaging with that question or that person.

Also to address @Demosthene’s point, I see it more as a function of certain personalities rather than something associated specifically with the right or the left.

I have noticed it here, from a very few people, but didn’t know the word for what they were doing. As soon as I realize they are not asking questions in a quest to get real answers and ideas from the rest of us, I disengage with that person.

@Demosthenes You bring up excellent points, I think. Things I have considered myself, but not that detailed, thank you. even if you do use pejoratives Sometimes people aren’t misinterpreting things on purpose, sometimes they are. (I think I need to remember that most of the posters here are from the US. (?), is that correct? Perhaps that is why the whole ‘left vs right’ name calling goes on and devolves quickly.)
Your last paragraph is defining what I understand as Sealioning. They are asking a question only to stand and defend a position they already have and they don’t want people to answer to hear more information or ideas. They only want insult, name-call, troll and use their arguments and refined collection of links on anyone who shares a differing opinion or offers up conflicting facts. That is what I understand sealioning to be. When you see it, it’s clearly obvious.

@sorry Most people seem to be from the U.S. but there are a few Canadian and British users, from what I recall. And a couple from non-English-speaking countries (Mimishu is from Vietnam).

You’re right, sometimes people are not misinterpreting on purpose, so I would just say give someone a chance first, the benefit of the doubt. If it’s repeated behavior, I think it’s clear we have a “sealion” at hand. And yes, I wasn’t sure if what I was calling “gotcha” was the same thing but it involves the same “playing dumb” that I find especially irritating. There’s this user on another site who always asks things like “I thought liberals were supposed to be tolerant, so what’s with blah blah” and when you respond with a genuine answer about tolerance he’ll ignore it all and simply say “so you admit liberals aren’t always tolerant?” and it’s like “jump up your own ass and die, troll”. Lol.

@sorry We have someone who lives in India as well and a couple of Dutch folk.

Yes I see it, usually in regards to politics, but I try to avoid them.
I’m curious why anyone responds at all if it’s seen as antagonism or trolling. Just skip it and move on, easy.

^^ Yup

I’d like to know how actual sea lions feel about this term. Seems kind of rude.

^teehee

@cookieman Maybe we should go to the zoo and ask some!

@cookieman Blame the person who created the cartoon series it originated from.

I’m sorry @sorry — could you provide a citation for that (in Chicago style)?

@janbb: No! I’d be too afraid they’d keep you.

I see it here from two or three Jellies, and then they will accuse the people who responded of being stupid, not critical thinkers, or they will praise one or two Jellies and say something like “I knew I could get a reasonable answer from you, unlike the other people who responded.” Just totally nasty and rude.

I usually try not to engage but sometimes I will. I will often back up what I write with links, but of course the links are never good enough.

I knew I could get a reasonable answer from you, unlike the other people who responded.” Just totally nasty and rude.

I hate when they do that, especially since they sometimes agree with me. So when they do, they regard me as one of the reasonable answers, but other times they act like I’m a moron not worthy of responding to. So which is it?

@cookieman That will be a no to the Chicago style. I’m not writing a paper for Nature, so this will be a link. The cartoon is called ‘Wondermark’ by David Malki and it shows up everywhere there is a definition for ‘sealioning’. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trolling (this sort of falls into the category of ‘LMGTFU’)

@sorry Love it!

@sorry, thanks for that!!

By far the majority of folks here are great. There are a couple who ask loaded political questions just for the sport of arguing. Even if data is presented it is not good enough.
Several of us took turns keeping one sea-lion at his/her computer all day by semi-pretending to answer and debate the person. We’d just hand off when we had to do something. We made them work for the clam.
My father taught me “Only a fool argues with a fool.” He was a smart guy.

If you try to sealion a sealion, is that polar-bearing?

If you team up and play with your food, is that orca-podding?

^If you pad your answer, it’s that walrusing?

^^ These are perfect!!

We now need new Fluther Awards based on these.

If you flirt with another jellie are you “manateesing”? So thereby being known as a Manateese?

If you’re a flipper-flopper are you penguining? Had to ask.

Getting back to the question, I wonder if a question should be removed by the mods if it is clearly sealioning and if repeated sealioners should be suspended or banned?

I agree, @janbb.

@janbb Mods are working on a policy that is fair and equal for all they said.
After all these years, it’s hard to understand why ‘just stop responding’ is no longer the rule of thumb. Seems fair and adequate to me. No feeding trolls.

^Yeah, I don’t understand why people keep feeding the trolls. Once I disengage with someone, I don’t even open their questions and read them.

@janbb Thanks for getting us back on track. We were sidelioned.

@chyna and @KNOWITALL, these things are often worded in such a way people (yeah, me too) react instantly, it’s a knee jerk thing. In earlier days of interactive sites we were aware of the steps it took to respond. There were enough conscious actions that we were more mindful then, now it’s second nature to whip through the process without being aware of the steps.

“Don’t feed the trolls” was easier then. Ugh.

I have an honest question. Why do we need a new term? Can’t we just call it trolling?

@Hawaii_Jake I think it is a troll designation, there are many types.

I had never heard that term before but it accurately describes a few people on this site. Good question!

I prefer this performance of Sealion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p0eSPo0n6Q

In terms of the question, yes. There are two who I can think of on this website. I kind of look at them like buggers I can’t shake off my finger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUWvCh376G0

@Caravanfan Boogers or buggers?
‘Oh bugger it all.’
‘My dog has eye boogers.’

@KNOWITALL I misspelled boogers. Actually I meant to say burger.

I am the walrus…

coo coo ka choo.

All, I think I know who you guys are referring to. LET THE MODS DECIDE! That is what they get paid the not-so-big bucks for. After all, we have to keep this website pure for the vast majority of posters.

Mods aren’t paid.

So if a person knows he/she is sea lioning but continues to do so, what then is that person?

@chyna I dunno. Why don’t you tell me?

I think the site should be taking notes about everyone’s ideas for the new terms. Manateese is my favourite so far. The ‘teaming up to play with your food’ has potential. And this all sort of goes with this ‘jellyfish’ theme deal going on. It’s a mood. I’m into it.

Well, I can take a hint when I see one, let alone multiple in one thread; I’m pretty sure it’s about me.
I mean, must be.
Anyway, I feel addressed.
And if, by chance (freaking small chance, but yeah) it’s not about me, then I would not be amused.

@rebbel Oh – you can float on my iceberg any time!

I don’t recognize it.

Someone needs to raise their hand and tell me they’re sealioning.

I’m just a mermaid. When I’m pursued it’s not usually for “evidence”.

You’re welcome.

Fluther promises to connect you to ‘useful people’. Why are there very noisy, but useless people no better than trolls on facebook? If I wanted facebook, I’d join facebook.

@sorry, it actually says “helpful people.” I don’t know if we’re useful. I don’t look at people as tools.

As for noisy, I don’t know the answer, but I agree that there is a lot of useless noise. I guess that’s how some people choose to be seen in the world. Isn’t there less here than a lot of other places, though?

@kneesox I guess that depends a great deal on what your ‘other places’ are like. For me, I’m used to a more academic and thoughtful place. A certain level of education is taken for granted. We rely on academic rigour. Veritas or die. Comments like ‘near-facts’ would be chewed up and spit out and then we would just feel sorry for you.

@sorry, I don’t really hang out at other places because they look so grim and crazed to me, but I see references to them that make me cringe. I guess I don’t qualify for sites that practice academic rigor, if you need credentials, but I do see people here who would. You just have to filter out the junk and ignore the snarky jerks.

And there are truly helpful people here. Kind, helpful people who will do their best for you. And sterling mods who mind the store.

@sorry Fluther is far from perfect. We are a mixed bunch. Some of us value factual truth, and some of us value feelings.

I appreciate the careful attention to writing standards here. The site values correct spelling and grammar.

The mods are removing much of the most egregious examples of trolling, but it’s not instant. There are only 3 of them, and they are volunteers. It’s up to users to flag the bad stuff and then let it go.

The strength of this site is the community. The founders started out to make a serious site for sharing expertise, but they went on to other jobs. This site exists only on the good will of one of the founders. I’ve made real friends here, and have met a number of other jellies in the real world. They are delightful people. There are people here who are not delightful, and I refrain from getting to know them more than they disclose here. A handful of users here are down right rotten, but that’s a very small number.

We are a small site. There are only 50 or 60 regular users. From such a tiny number, we can tackle some large questions. One user may figure out just the right way to ask the search engines for the perfect bit of information. We still have a few content experts who don’t need search engines for some questions.

Again, we aren’t perfect. When you find that, please come back and tell us all.

I’m not making less of people’s sense of community here that they have found over time. I do have reservations of your ability to ‘crowd source’ the truth of certain issues. Especially given the noisy shit I’ve had to deal with in the short month I’ve been here. I also don’t know if anyone is really listening to me or if I’m of use here, especially for the bullshit I’ve had to put up with. So, perhaps you aren’t aware of how academic groups work. We don’t put up with trolls for a start.

@sorry Have you considered Quora? It’s a place I go when I’m looking for more academic discussion. But to me it has little to no social element or sense of community so I often prefer to come here even if my questions don’t always go the way I hope. Maybe I’ve been spoiled but I go to some sites with more users and more social elements and they seem far more overloaded with trolls and BS than this site. This site is fairly tame.

I come for the food.

I don’t even have a facebook page, so I don’t even know what Quora is, other than something comes up with I g/search and then dismiss.

ALL, as you well know, the US has more liberals than conservatives. Currently, the trend is for liberals to become progressives and the conservatives to batten down the hatches and become ultra-conservative. In the past there has been a coalescing of sorts; this time it seems to me that we are drifting further and further apart.

I am in constant search of a person who can debate for the liberal agenda in a responsible manner: no name calling, no assumptions about my motives. Just good old-fashioned high school level debate. I have had extremely productive discussions with some of you and will always be grateful for the opportunities to learn.

@crazyguy cool story bro…. but I’m relying on a an academic level above high school. Just old-fashioned University level debate, where at least a freshman level of science philosophy has been established. And quoting a paper beyond your means… is done ironically. In other words…. you don’t know what you’re fucking talking about.

ALL, as you well know, the US has more liberals than conservatives. Currently, the trend is for liberals to become progressives and the conservatives to batten down the hatches and become ultra-conservative. In the past there has been a coalescing of sorts; this time it seems to me that we are drifting further and further apart.

I am in constant search of a person who can debate for the liberal agenda in a responsible manner: no name calling, no assumptions about my motives. Just good old-fashioned high school level debate. I have had extremely productive discussions with some of you and will always be grateful for the opportunities to learn.

This is hilarious and I’m going to post it in my group academic files. you are in constant search…. LOL…... Look for your contribution in a Lancet paper. You’ll be contributing in ways you never thought possible. We’re taking everything here from Fluther…. so thank you.

@canidmajor I’ve got some guacamole. You got chips?

Party at my house tonight! Bring the guac, bring the chips, I’ll make some fajitas!

It’s been years since we had a good Fluther party.

What?

@sorry You need a cocktail.

Not much reason for me to stay…

@sorry You’re taking this very seriously.

@sorry Stay! We just like to spontaneously bust out imaginary food for no reason sometimes. (Usually pancakes.)

It’s how we do. :P

[flips some pancakes]

Why wouldn’t I take it seriously. This site promotes itself as such. I get here and find trolls and bullshit and very little back up.

I think you’re not getting that much backup with comments. Probably because most of us are tired of engaging certain users.

@sorry, why are you sorry?

@sorry I mean, yeah, but as others have explained it’s an old site hanging on by a thread where most users have been here for a long time. I’ve been here since I was 17. Sometimes things are going to get social and less serious.

Psst, @Demosthenes, s/he doesn’t know how old you are now.

You’ve gotten plenty of serious comments on this thread in the beginning and plenty of suggestions about how the site functions elsewhere.

Right now you seem to have a grouch on against all of us (several of whom are academics) so we’re changing the tone with a party.

Several of us recognize the trolls and the bullshitters and stay away from them now after engaging with them in the past. And as has been suggested to you, you can flag what you believe is a troll. The mods are not omniscient.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

@kneesox Oh right, forgot I took that out of my profile. It’s been 12 years. A long time.

@janbb, I’ll bring a case of assorted bubbly, and a case of exotic juices.
And some cake. And chips for @Hawaii_Jake’s quac.

And for those who feel they got sold a bill of goods, because the site isn’t as advertised, maybe ask why before being outraged. In the metric of this type of thing, the site is old, and because of circumstances, limps a bit, is kind of out of shape and has to pee too often in the night.

It’s the local coffee shop that no longer has “The Best Coffee In Town” as advertised, but making a show of spitting it all over the counter and loudly complaining really isn’t going to make the coffee any better.
Tip your server, be pleasant to the regulars, then come back or not as you choose.

@Hawaii_Jake I’ve got Hatch Chile Salsa and fresh bag of chips.

@canidmajor I couldn’t have said it better. GA.

@KNOWITALL, I wish I could give @canidmajor two ga’s for that, but I can’t, so I’m giving one to you as proxy..

How come you write your name so loud?

‘outraged’ is a rather strong word for mild disappointment. but, meh.

Mild disappointment seems to call for quite a lot of fuming.

@sorry—Part of your “mild disappointment” might be coming from your expectation that this site functions as “an academic group.” It doesn’t. I don’t think that was ever the purpose.

But I do think people here are earnest in their contributions to discussions (even if the tone sometimes becomes abrasive; we could probably all use a little more tact at times…) and I think that gives the site strength.

As for sealioning… I’m honestly not sure I see a lot of it here. I know I definitely see interactions where it seems that one or both jellies assume the other is acting in bad faith, and that assumption colors the interaction. I also definitely see discussions where people talk past each other, or discussions like @LuckyGuy described, where at least some of the people involved are seem to be involved for “the sport of arguing,” or even some cases where people seem aware of the performance aspect of public debate and try to “save face.” But I wouldn’t describe any of that as sealioning.

I’ve been thinking about this question and wondering what utility the term “sealioning” has, if any… I think the term is amusing, and the comic that originates the term amusing—I hadn’t known about either before this discussion—but I’m not sure how much the term actually benefits a discussion.

What I mean is—

If it’s harassment, the mods will get involved; people shouldn’t be subject to harassment

If questions or answers are evidently “flame-bait” or “trolling,” they will be removed; those don’t add anything to a discussion.

What does the term “sealioning” add?

@sadiesayit I agree with almost everything in your post – except the bit about the mods. As far as I can tell, the mods basically reject any post anybody objects to; especially if the post is by a well-known right-winger!

I too believe the mods quite susceptible to itchy trigger fingers when prompted. But then again, the very premise for their existence is open to debate Only, don’t try it here.

Get a room, you two. ~

@rebbel That, my friend, is the most inane post I have seen on this board. And that feat takes some doing!

Three Cheers for @rebbel !! He wins a prize!