What do you make of the "pronoun wars"?

It is a simple issue of treating people with respect.
Treat them as the person they are, not as what you, in your presumptious arrogance, demand them to be.
It costs you absolutely nothing to use their preferred pronouns, and the only you are doing by refusing to do it, is show your disdain for them.
And if that is what you want to do, if you want to express your disdain, disrespect, and disgust for transgender people, if you want to show the world your bigotry, fine. Do that.
Do that honestly. Do not hide behind the excuse of alleged “christian values” to shield yourself from deserved consequences.

The sensible approach is too obvious to everyone. The kid should call the tune.

@ragingloli This guy had a whole range of excuses: it’s offending God, it’s child abuse, it’s selling out your soul…I find all that to be a bit disingenuous. It would be nice if people would just admit that the real reason is “I have a problem with trans people and don’t recognize their legitimacy”. Although I understand why someone would hesitate to admit that.

@Demosthenes: “Should teachers be fired for not using preferred pronouns?”

Yes

@Demosthenes: “A teacher might be less likely to resist it if they aren’t being threatened with firing for questioning the policy.”

A teacher who is more likely to resist due to policies that require correct pronouns should be fired, deserves to be, and should be cleaning septic tanks – not teaching.

@Demosthenes: “But the left wants to codify the orthodoxy at the policy level and the right wants to take up a religious crusade against it. And it’s the few students this applies to who are left feeling more marginalized.”

Come on. What are you doing here? This is as simple a topic as they come.

I currently know someone (7th grade) who is dealing with teacher ignorance right now. It’s causing quite a bit of stress and problems. Rather than learning, they are having to deal with some messed-up shit that an old teacher is bringing in to the classroom.

How difficult is it to use correct pronouns?

What is the confusion? What kind of “both sides” struggle are you really dealing with here?

Yeah that’s a cop out to blame his Christian values. If he is a true Christian, he knows that God knows what is in his heart and by simply calling a person what they want to be called will in no way compromise his relationship with God. “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” Shakespere

@product The “both sides” aspect is that the left, by taking up an aggressive position on this, is creating more resistance to it. Teachers that might’ve never come out and fought against this are doing so because it’s becoming an identity issue (i.e. “Christians should speak out”). I just think the full on “war” could’ve been avoided.

@Demosthenes: “The “both sides” aspect is that the left, by taking up an aggressive position on this, is creating more resistance to it. Teachers that might’ve never come out and fought against this are doing so because it’s becoming an identity issue (i.e. “Christians should speak out”). I just think the full on “war” could’ve been avoided.”

If you have a child in school right now and they are being traumatized because some fucker refuses to use correct gender, how long do you think is the appropriate time to wait before these people come around? 5 years? 10? The appropriate time is now.

I love the “if people didn’t push back against racism/transphobia/sexism/etc people wouldn’t resist” shtick. It’s an ultra-conservative position that people believe is some kind of middle ground.

So tell me – how could the “war” have been avoided? First, tell me how this is a “war”. What is the solution to teachers who are traumatizing children rather than teaching them?

I think it’s crazy myself.

The adult goes by school policy for 8 hours, not his personal feelings or what his church believes.

I’m a Christian and have no issue with LGBTQ’s. Whether God disapproves or not is between you and Him, not me.

That being said, many of my LGBTQ friends try to educate and gently correct hetero’s here and have a sense of humor about mistakes. So many just move to more liberal areas, many of us are not well educated on these kinds of issues. We could all use a little more grace and understanding on both sides.

A “case-by-case basis?” How complex does this have to be? What’s wrong with a “one size fits all” approach? Wouldn’t that be simpler??

If a teacher is intentionally creating an environment that will increase the likelihood of a student suicide (look up the statistics, the stress added to the adolescent trans person increases exponentially when they are denied the simplest of identifiers) they should be fired and censured.

There is no right and left here, no “Christian” or other. This is basic decency. When you deliberately refuse to use a person’s preferred name, pronoun, title, address, etc it is grossly disrespectful. When you do that, as a person in authority over children, it is bullying.

@ragingloli Is correct. Just be respectful of people. Personally, I have trouble with the pronoun “they” when I am reading in a book, especially if they are in a group. Is the “they” referring to the individual or the group? It’s just confusing. I prefer the pronoun “ze”—that way it’s gender neutral and I know it’s an individual.

But I’m old.

^ I also have a problem with “they” – or at least I did. I’m old (49), but have enough young people around me that I’ve adapted to using “they” in cases that would have made me cringe in the past. I do wish there were a gender-neutral pronoun in English that didn’t have a history of implying plural.

@product I had a problem with it initially too but am getting more and more comfortable with it. Language is fluid.

@Caravanfan “Ze” which might have worked just never has caught on. It seems like “they” is the winner.

In professional writing, I always use the s/he pronoun.

And I have to add that I am really, really tired of these “culture wars” that do not serve any good except getting Republicans elected.

I’m quite used to singular “they” in cases where the gender is not known or specified, as an alternative to the clunky “he or she” (e.g. “each student should do what they want”). Referring to a specific person as “they” I’m less used to but I have no objection to it.

@janbb It won’t stop quickly because many Reps have a very hard time seperating Church and State due to some parts of the bible.

@KNOWITALL Oh, I know.

I think it’s obnoxious and disrespectful to refuse to use someone’s preferred pronouns, but I also don’t think people should automatically be fired for being obnoxious and disrespectful.

I also think people can be obnoxious and disrespectful about their pronouns. I knew a woman who identified as such and performed conventionally female gender roles, sometimes in a kind of extreme way (long hair; clothes with ruffles, bows, butterflies, flowers), yet insisted on he/him pronouns and got outraged when friends forgot or strangers assumed incorrectly. It was obnoxious and disrespectful.

That is so not fair to act a certain way and then get butt hurt when people treat you like that’s what you are.
Some people just need drama I guess.

I think the entire issue has been brought on by the idiotic ideals that do nothing but create confusion. In the old days, if someone used a pronoun (or noun) for you that you didn’t like or didn’t apply, you just corrected the speaker and moved on. There was no life altering angst over it. Example, if someone talking to me referred to me as MR Seawulf and I didn’t think it needed the Mr, I would just say that…It’s just Seawulf. If they continued to use the moniker, that’s on them. It wasn’t a big deal one way or the other. Either they were raised to use terms like that, or they were too dumb to not correct it or they were just being purposely annoying. And with any of those things, it is nothing to me…that is all on them. I don’t control them.

Maybe that is the real issue…some people want to control others, other people don’t, but don’t want to be controlled either.

@seawulf575: “Example, if someone talking to me referred to me as MR Seawulf and I didn’t think it needed the Mr, I would just say that…It’s just Seawulf. If they continued to use the moniker, that’s on them.”

I’m so sorry you went through this. Being referred to by male pronouns by a physical education teacher as a kid while you were going through severe bullying by everyone must have been brutal. Statistically, many people in your position have ended up dead or with a lot of trauma. When did people start using your preferred pronouns (she/her)?

@product You make several gross assumptions that aren’t there, given the information. You are assuming that the child was being bullied. You are assuming that the teacher was in on the bullying. You are assuming that the teacher even knew the child’s “identity”. If you see a physiological boy who identifies some other way and you refer to that child as “he” or “him” it is a normal thing. You are arguing my points for me, you just don’t know it.

Now, take that simple statement by the teacher…using a term he thought nothing of…and blow it out of proportion. Now you are where you guys on the left have taken this world. That is the confusion. And you are making more gross assumptions on a grander scale that can be grossly damaging to children. Teaching children they get to choose their identity is dangerous, in my opinion. Children are not capable of fully understanding these choices. And while experimenting, they can make really bad decisions that WILL haunt them for years or permanently.

I know a young lady…a good friend of my daughter and of our family. When she was in junior high, she decided she was a lesbian. No biggie…we didn’t think badly of her or anything like that. Except a few years later, she decided she was heterosexual. Again…no biggie for us. But now picture that same decision being made about gender by someone in elementary school or junior high. Suddenly they are doing things to their bodies and psyches that are not easily undone. And which can impact them for the rest of their lives…negatively. And often, these choices result in bullying. So you can add that to the mix.

@seawulf575 I have the feeling that was snark, as you didn’t say anything about identifying as female.
I think the point is that for younger people raised in this PC culture, it could be more hurtful than we older people realize.

@janbb I agree that “they” has won out. And I use it and accept it. When I meet someone with a “they” I tell them that I’ll do my best but I’m old and will sometimes slip. They’re usually fine with that as long as I make the effort. I just find it a bit confusing. For example, I had dinner last night with a friend who was taking about his daughter. In conversation he was using the word “they” and I thought he was talking about his daughter and her partner. It took me most of the conversation to realize that they live alone. (See, to me, that sentence is confusing, but to them, it’s not).

@Caravanfan I agree. Me too. Old dogs – new tricks!

@janbb What’s funny is I even caught him using the word “her” once or twice.

@KNOWITALL Actually, no snark at all. But you hit the nail on the head: “Younger people raised in this PC culture”. The PC culture is 100% impossible to live in without possibly offending someone at sometime. And the PC culture makes every little thing enormous which makes kids overwhelmed at the start.
And indirectly, you are agreeing with me that the PC culture, as created by the left, is damaging to children. They are urged to make decisions for which they are not mature enough to understand all the implications and then, when human nature takes over and they get ostracized by their peers or picked on or whatever, the damage is done.

In war it’s interrogative pronouns for me.

@seawulf I meant snark directed at you, buddy. :)

The world is not a safe space, but school and teachers and cops were always supposed to be.

I just call everyone by their first name. No one should have a problem with that. But then again no one tells me they dont have a name, or they switch between 2 names depending on how they are feeling, so that makes it easier

No. Pronouns are needed so your speech doesn’t all blocky and clumsy.
“Mark went to the store. Then Mark went to a party. Then Mark drove home. Then Mark got pulled over by the cops because Mark was drunker than a skunk so Mark got a ticket and Mark was thrown in the clink.”

So a teacher who doesn’t use a person’s preferred pronouns be fired, what about everyone else? Factory workers? Active duty military? Doctors? Biologists?

A person has the right to be called by what ever pronoun they prefer. I’m just saying they are need to keep speech and writing fluid.

But when someone doesn’t get called what they prefer should the consequence be the person who said it loses their job? I’m seeing a lot of people who say this teacher should without any explanation as to how that applies to everyone.

It’s about compassion.

That doesn’t answer my question.

It’s easy to say things like “It’s not hard to call someone what they want” or “its about compassion”. That makes your side the good guys while anyone who disagrees is bad. Then when someone asks for a specific explanation they are ignored or insulted. I have avoided this type of conversation for that reason. Asking for details about the solutions people suggest doesn’t make me transphobic. A trans person was born that way and they shouldn’t be treated poorly because of who they are. But how do we legislate that fairly. I was born white, male, and heterosexual. People talk about my race, gender, and sexual orientation in a negative way all the time. Should they lose their jobs too? There would be just as many liberals unemployed if speaking negatively about a person’s race, gender, or sexual orientation resulted in termination from their job. This is more about power and virtue signaling than real equality

@malcomkade: Are you unable to tell the difference between between how a teacher treats the children over whom they have authority and how a factory worker treats a cashier in the company cafeteria? You are trying to apply an absolute where it doesn’t apply.

Ok so a person would only lose their job if they have authority? Just when it involves children? Are you saying a factory worker who wont call another employee by their preferred pronoun shouldn’t lose their job?

Oh, ffs, you just want to argue. You are still trying to apply an absolute set of parameters to a very broad and shades of gray concept.
Done now.

@malcomkade – Do you believe that a teacher bullying students has any business being a teacher? Maybe you can start there. This isn’t very difficult.

Ive hardly asked for an absolute set of parameters. Just explain who else should lose their job for refusing preferred pronouns. Now you say its too broad and gray of a subject for you to answer any of my questions. Your “solution” is to vague to give any details about. How is that supposed to work? People have to take your word for it when you say someone needs to lose their job.

@product No the teacher should be fired. He could have handled this in a professional way by speaking with the parents, student, and principal all together outside the classroom. I asked if a refusal to use preferred pronouns should result in termination from any other jobs. Then asked it would make a difference of the trans person was an adult? Then I asked why the race, gender, and sexual orientation I was born as is so openly criticized without consequence and if that should be treated differently than a trans person who is not being called the pronouns they want to be? Your the 3rd person I have been having this conversation with and still have not got a single answer. The first 2 quit the conversation rather than explain ANY sort of detail to me. First I am told its to broad and gray of a concept to have a conversation about. Then you tell me that it isnt very hard. Everyone is quick to point out a problem then repeatedly refuses to talk about a solution. Like I said, virtue signaling

^ Are you typing on a flip-phone?

@malcomkade: “Your the 3rd person I have been having this conversation with and still have not got a single answer.”

What is the question, exactly? You’re making this way more complicated than it needs to be. I’ll try to respond…

@malcomkade: “I asked if a refusal to use preferred pronouns should result in termination from any other jobs.”

If person A is bullying person B in the workplace, it would make perfect sense that an employer would want that behavior to stop. If person A refused to stop, it would make sense for that person to be fired. Right?

@malcomkade: “Then asked it would make a difference of the trans person was an adult? ”

Huh?

@malcomkade: “Then I asked why the race, gender, and sexual orientation I was born as is so openly criticized without consequence and if that should be treated differently than a trans person who is not being called the pronouns they want to be?”

You need to get a glass of water to make sure you’re not dehydrated. Then spend some time parsing this monstrosity of a sentence into something coherent. You might get a response. I honestly have no idea what you’re asking here or even talking about.

@malcomkade: “Like I said, virtue signaling”

I’m well aware of what virtue signaling is and means. I suspect you might not know what it is, and have spent an absurd amount of time typing up yet another incoherent comment.

I highly recommend that you sit down and figure out what it is you want to ask, then ask that question. You seem to have a grievance of some kind, and want to shoehorn it into an old Fluther question about pronouns. Finish that glass of water, and take your time.

@product I think he is equating a person saying something bad about white men with a person refusing to use the proper pronouns of a trans co-worker. They’re not much similar, though they could both be considered inappropriate behavior in a workplace, creating a toxic work environment.

I didn’t choose to be born a straight white male, yet nobody loses their job if they talk about that negatively

^ What in the shit are you talking about? You didn’t have that glass of water, did you?

DRINK THE WATER!

@malcomkade Well what’s an example of that? If someone is making the workplace uncomfortable with such talk, they could lose their job. Did anyone complain? Needs more context.

And yes I do ramble, i have epilepsy with frequent focal seizures that make me feel foggy and confused most days. I take a long time typing because I have tremors in my left hand I cant control. So this water bit your having so much fun doing isn’t dehydration, its a disability. For a month now i cant work, drive, pick up my daughter, or play guitar more than a few minutes. Basically the worst most depressing shit that has ever happened to me. But Im glad your having some fun with it.

If someone at the workplace does something or says something that offends a coworker, the first step is the offended person tells the offender to please stop. If the offender continues, the offended needs to report it to the supervisor or personnel. That’s as per the training we’ve all received at work.

@malcolmkade: you say now that you have a disability and it’s difficult for you to type, etc., but you’re able to repeatedly come back and argue your points, and anyone who disagrees with you. Now you’re attacking others. It’s fine to argue, but don’t look for sympathy about the disability when it’s convenient.

Like with any other bad behavior, get HR involved until it’s resolved one way or the other.
If it involves children, same thing.

@jca2 there is NOTHING convenient about having multiple seizures a day. I actually think it is quite inconvenient. You should be ashamed. That is an objectively terrible thing to say about epilepsy. The only reason I brought it up was that I was being made fun of by multiple people for typing slow. I thought if they understood the truth they would back off the personal attacks. But no, multiple people continued to claim I was “using” my disability to “play the crying victim ” when it was “convenient”.
@Dutchess_III Its about compassion, right?(it was her famous compassion, my mistake, its hard to keep up with three people arguing with me at once). It seemed to be about cracking jokes about me. I didn’t notice any compassion from anyone. Including you.

I never had a problem with anyone in last couple days. I showed some music and made a bunch of jokes, it was fun. But almost every time someone makes a conservative comment here they are insulted by at least one person, usually more. Assuming I am using epilepsy as an excuse is a very common type of prejudice and harassment epileptic people deal with. It may serve you well to consider the insults you enjoy throwing around are no less harmful than the ones you are claim to be against. When your mocking a stranger for saying they are struggling with their disability, your the problem. If you can’t acknowledge your double standard after this, your being willfully ignorant. You guys win.

@malcolmkade you’re misconstruing what my intent was. You’re on here attacking people and making accusations and then you pull out the disability issue, which had zero to do with the discussion.

Fire everyone. There, problem solved. Everyone gets fired until they learn how to treat people with dignity and respect.