What should K-12 students learn about race and racism?

I began school in 1968 and graduated from high school in 1981. I went to school in one district in Oklahoma, and we were taught exactly nothing about the 1921 massacre of blacks in Tulsa.

I believe that American children should be taught that slavery was race based and evil. I believe that they should be taught that white colonists were guilty of genocide against the natives who were already here.

I further believe we must all learn that the systems built in the past during slavery, Jim Crow Era, and expulsion of natives still exist and must be dismantled.

There was of course no aspect of the topic in formal education beyond the perfunctory issue of slavery and the ghettoization of immigrant classes. There were glancing issues like the Dred Scott decision or the Chinese Exclusion Act, but all of them were treated as issues peripheral to the “main event.” And when you stop to think of it, there is no way in hell that this universal neglect of anything so fundamental to the makeup of this place could be “accidentally” neglected.

How about asking what you think students should be taught about math or chemistry? The answer should be the same. The whole “critical race theory” controversy is the usual schtick employed by conservatives. They want to restrict knowledge and claim that teaching the facts about racism is racist (or teaching the facts about climate change is radical propaganda).

Imagine trying to teach the history of the US while tiptoeing around concepts of racism? In order to do so, you need to insert racist whitewashing. This is the goal of those who oppose so-called “critical race theory”. They are opposed to education overall, because it undermines their racism and general shitiness.

Same for sex education, climate change, etc.

I truly believe that @stanleybmanly and I probably had the same experience here in the Midwest.
‘Kids must be protected and allowed to be happy children while they can’ is pretty much the motto, so unpleasantness is not our ‘culture’ as far as education, history and children.

I do admit to feeling a sense of betrayal after more in depth study of history as I got older, but I think there’s a line, perhaps in high school, that we need to truly educate, instead of the memorization of pure fact/ dates, which would be beneficial to kids, especially here.

I think that kids should be taught exactly what racism is. It is a viewpoint that assuming one group is better or worse strictly because of their skin color. Kids need to be taught that with example after example of how ignorant it really is. But as kids get later in school (high school for example) they should also include examples of where race is used as a political weapon. And at this point in their development, you could open it up for them to think and question everything.

I’d be interested in looking at the curriculum. It’s one thing to say, “teach critical race theory to elementary students”. It’s another thing to see the text books.

Here’s an article about the new law mandating education on “diversity, unconscious bias, and equality” in Jew Jersey’s public school. Nowhere does it mention critical race theory. That is a trope the Right is using to beat down education:

https://www.cbs58.com/news/new-jersey-is-the-latest-state-to-require-schools-to-offer-courses-on-diversity-and-unconscious-bias

Edit too late to correct: “New Jersey” not “Jew Jersey”! :-)

@janbb OR is the wording used just the Left’s way of avoiding using the term Critical Race Theory? I mean, if you use a description of CRT but don’t say the term CRT, is it really any different?

@wulfie Since Critical Race Theory is an academic term developed in law schools, I really don’t see how it could be taught in elementary school. Also, the New Jersey department of education is not a stronghold of the Left so I think your premise is wrong. Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.

There is an unfortunate tendency on the right to assume any positive turn of the society regarding progress proof of “leftist conspiracy”. I wouldn’t mind so much if this shit was not so transparently dumb. I mean honest to God, who can walk around believing the left Is out to push hatred of white people as a pillar of the school curriculum?

@stanleybmanly Perception is everything. Guarantee you that’s exactly what some believe after the last few years issues.
It’s only a conspiracy theory if its not true. They already call some colleges liberal indoctrination camps. True story.

@janbb CRT is an academic term. Stop. You are stating it right there that it is being taught. Developed in law schools. Stop. Just because it was developed in law schools doesn’t mean it cannot be started with children. The connection is not there. There are hundreds of things taught in K-12 that were developed for upper education that have the basics taught early on. In fact….EVERYTHING!!! Stress points are used in Engineering. To say they are not being taught in K-12 is 100% true. But the math required to calculate these stress points is started in K-12.
The basics of every single college course is taught in K-12. And you are right, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Just like indoctrination is just indoctrination.

You should THINK about that word indoctrination. And how it is not necessarily a pejorative. If you do not believe education a matter of “indoctrination”, you need only consider your training as a submariner. In fact, the FUNCTION of the school is to INDOCTRINATE you silly. You dummies don’t even understand that every morning your silly asses stood there rattling off the pledge of allegiance you are “victims” of intensive indoctrination. Everything from tying your shoes, to brushing your teeth, classes on penmanship, good manners, even empathy for your fellows. Let’s get down to reality. Good citizenship IS AND SHOULD BE a matter of indoctrination. For far too many of us it is by no means instinctive nor inborn.

@stanleybmanly Maybe you should THINK about that word indoctrination. Yes, we were “indoctrinated” into the proper way to behave in the military. And we were also told the reason for that “indoctrination”. It was for our safety and it was presented as such. And there were a few times I experienced where that “indoctrination” came in handy. But there is another word for what we experienced as well…training. And it is a much better word. There is a slight difference between indoctrination and training. Training teaches you how to do a job to the best of your ability. Indoctrination teaches you what to think. And in that aspect, we were NOT indoctrinated. There were many, many sailors that didn’t like the Navy, didn’t like the foolishness, and were offended that we weren’t entitled to the same rights we were there to protect.
And you are right, Good citizenship is a matter of indoctrination to a point. It helps us learn right from wrong. And that is why so many conservatives are so dead set against CRT…it is wrong. It teaches and stresses racism. Or are you suggesting racism is good and needs to be stressed in our society?

Now that’s the great fear, but it’s stupid. Rather than teaching racism, it is an effort to teach ABOUT racism, and how we are buried in it up to our necks. Factually, the only reason the issue persists to the present day is because the issue has been deliberately and vigorously suppressed to the extent that the average person is shamefully ignorant of it. Rather than teaching racism, the emphasis is on examining its destructive and lingering consequences and acknowledging them as such.

@stanleybmanly I just looked and there is not one actual fact in anything you just stated. It is almost 100% leftist talking points. When you are teaching kids how screwed up things are with racism (which is not really a true statement), you are teaching them to harbor hostility against others because of skin color. You ARE teaching them to be racists.

This is why your assertion is stupid and pig headed.

1. Our country was founded by slaveholding individuals. Is it possible to hold slaves and not be a racist? Is it racist of me to ask students or YOU these questions?

2. Is slavery a racist practice or not? Is it racist to teach children that slavery is a racist practice? Am I promoting racism and teaching hatred of white people by raising the topic?

3.If I teach my class that there are inherent contradictions between “all men are created equal” in the Declaration of Independence and the establishment and legalization of slavery in the Constitution, am I instilling hate through pointing this FACT out to my students or YOU?

@stanleybmanly But see, you are only stressing one side of the equation.

1. Our country was the first of all the “modern” nations at the time to outlaw slavery. Is that racist? If not, why would you stress it still impacts today’s world?

2. Slavery is NOT a racist practice. Most, if not all, of the blacks that we had in this country were actually sold to us as slaves by other blacks in Africa. How can blacks owning slaves be racist? Your assumption that only whites were slave owners is likewise bogus. There were black slave owners in this country as well. Slavery has been going on for thousands of years. Look at the Egyptians. They owned many, many slaves that were of the same color as themselves. They were from conquered nations. That is not racist. The problem is that slavery is wrong for a whole different reason. It is wrong for the reason that men. are. not. commodities. So yes, it IS racist to teach children that slavery is a racist practice. And yes, you ARE promoting racism and teaching hatred of white people by raising this topic in this way.

3. Frederick Douglass, the foremost black abolitionist in the 1840s, once asked, “If the Constitution were intended to be by its framers and adopters a slave-holding instrument, then why would neither “slavery,” “slave-holding,” nor “slave” be anywhere found in it?” Interesting, isn’t it? You claim the Constitution established and legalized slavery. I challenge you to find out where that is mentioned. Apparently a black abolitionist who would be LOOKING for that charge couldn’t find it and agrees the Constitution does NOT do either thing. So again, you ARE instilling hate through pointing out this FALSE FACT to your students.

4. I notice you entirely ignore mentioning how hundreds of thousands of white people lost their lives or were grievously injured fighting to end slavery. I notice you fail to mention the 13th Amendment which is the first place in the Constitution where slavery is mentioned and it OUTLAWS the practice putting an end to any bogus claims (such as yours) going forward. I notice you specifically fail to mention that in the framework of institutional racism, that it was the Democratic party who fought against equal rights through most of our nation’s history.

See, there are many points you have entirely wrong and many more points (that are damaging to your warped beliefs) that you entirely ignore. So yes, you are looking more and more like a racist trying to spread more racism. If you got your facts straight and actually included all the things you ignore, you’d come to look at things the way I do. That slavery is a bad thing, that it was a dark part of our history, but that we, as Americans, led the world in ending the practice. And that hating people because of their skin color is ignorant and hurtful, but is totally acceptable if you are a Democrat.

Once more, it is almost painful to watch you flaunt your appalling ignorance and outright distortion of the truth. I don’t say this mockingly on the 4th of July, but YOU would benefit yourself immeasurably through as much exposure to all the critical race theory you can manage.

The United States was in fact the LAST world power to eliminate slavery. And I want you to think for a second about your statement above that because black people sold other black people, those doing the selling cannot be racist. Do you actually not understand what a stupid thing that is to put out here. It is actually painful to read your paragraphs above.

Please, never try to convince anyone that slavery was not a racist practice because black tribes participated in the slave trade. It is distressing to see another human being embarrass himself through such appalling ignorance. And regardless of whatever YOU think Frederick Douglass had to say, even you cannot pretend to believe that slaves and slavery are not stipulated in the Constitution, then tell me that the 13th amendment was put in place to abolish it. Don’t you know that the Constitution was constructed SPECIFICALLY to accommodate the slave states? That is why the document made the extraordinary blatantly racist assertion that each slave be granted the status as 3fifths of a human being. Now I ask you, is that racist or not? Is that leftist delusion? Is teaching kids about that instilling hatred of white people? And how does the fact that white people died fighting other white people to eliminate slavery prove that slavery itself is not racist? If black people can LEGALLY be bought and sold while white people CANNOT is that not the premium definition of RACISM, and SHOULDN’T our children be INDOCTRINATED toward understanding this? We in fact DID NOT lead the world and were LAST AT THE TABLE in the elimination of slavery. Don’t ask ME to get My facts straight you sorrowfully ignorant pathetically delusional man.

@stanleybmanly I think the real problem here is your lack of understanding of terms. Racist and Racism seem to be terms beyond your comprehension. As is slavery. So, as usual, I will help you out.
Racism: 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Slavery:1. The condition in which one person is owned as property by another and is under the owner’s control, especially in involuntary servitude.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal workforce.

Please note that race is not a single part of the term slavery. And likewise, slavery is not a term in the definition of racism. However, when black people capture other black people for economic or political reasons and sell them into bondage, that is not racism. It cannot be. They aren’t believing they are better than their captives because of race or even geographical divisions. They are just seeing an easy way to get rid of people they don’t like and to make a buck in the process. You can try spinning it, but it just shows how wrapped up in racism you really are. It is all you CAN see.

As for the US being the last world power to eliminate slavery, you are, once again, wrong. In fact, in some ways, there are many countries that have “prohibited” slavery, but which have no criminal laws against it, nor any civil charges for it. China, India, Canada…just a few countries where they gave slavery lip service. And to be perfectly honest, slavery does still exist in this country, but it is called human trafficking. And that seems to be something the Dems are supporting as well since much of that comes into this country from persons entering the country illegally across the southern border…the practice the Dems are fighting tooth and nail to keep. Once again we see Dems supporting slavery. See any trends here?

You keep spouting, but you are showing your ignorance with every word. You have lots of words, but you obviously don’t understand them when you are using them. In the end, you are doing nothing but quoting the leftist indoctrination which pushes racism at every turn. So you are, probably unwittingly, a racist.

Yeah right. I’m the one who once again is unaware of the facts. Thank you for the lessons and the enlightenment I’m sure we all appreciate.

Your welcome. I find it interesting though that you have dodged so many things I clocked you on and now that I have pretty much painted you into a corner you are bowing out like I am the bad guy. Stop spreading false information and you won’t have so many problems defending it.

You aren’t a bad guy and I have not attempted at any time to claim that you were. And I defy you to demonstrate otherwise. You are however an interminable fool if you believe you have EVER bested me in ANY argument. The monumental absurdities you fulminate are staggering in both their breadth and frequency. I commend you on your survival in the face of your crippling disabilities.

It’s interesting to me that to many on the right, acknowledging that “slavery existed” is somehow a threat to white people. Acknowledging the sins of the past is not the same as saying all white people are evil/guilty/responsible. Sometimes I think “white guilt” is something inferred by especially insecure individuals rather than something imposed by certain bleeding hearts (though no doubt some do attempt to impose it). White guilt is BS either way.

Of course slavery in the United States was highly racialized and became more so over time. Slavery in many other societies was not race-based (Ancient Rome, for one). Racism and slavery are inextricably linked in an American context.

The monumental absurdities you fulminate are staggering in both their breadth and frequency. I commend you on your survival in the face of your crippling disabilities.

This is one of the greatest utterances I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading.

@Demosthenes When you start talking about systemic racism, you ARE talking about white guilt. What you are saying is that whites have set up a system to favor them over other races. But all that falls apart when the questions are asked honestly. Look at @stanleybmanly as a perfect example. Look at how he wants to phrase things and the false facts he starts with to support his views. When you start with the idea that whites are guilty of every wrong in the country, you then continue on by ignoring anything good that they may have done, and you rewrite things to support your views. That is the crux of why CRT is so wrong. It specifically looks for things like that.
As for slavery being racialized you are 1000% correct. But that has been done by the Democrats throughout our history. And that is the solid fact that those that want “honest discussions” about racism always want to ignore. The only thing that racialized slavery in this country is that most of the slaves we have ever had were black. But that does not, as @stanleybmanly said, make slavery a racist practice. That is a false fact. A horrible practice is not racist, unless it is being perpetuated by racism. Look at the later efforts of the Democrats to “keep the blacks in their place”. THOSE were racist. The KKK, the Jim Crow Laws, Biden’s “Racial Jungle” views….all racist. Until we can have that open and honest discussion, all racist discussions are tainted and warped.

@stanleybmanly “You aren’t a bad guy and I have not attempted at any time to claim that you were. And I defy you to demonstrate otherwise. You are however an interminable fool…”

Yeah, where could I ever get the idea that you have never claimed I am a bad guy?

Not all dummies are bad guys. They often have very BAD ideas and extremely warped perceptions on reality. And as for MY facts—just because slavery elsewhere and in other eras may not have had a racial component, that has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on the conversation about slavery in America. You can squirm all you want on this, but until you can show me all the white slaves freed by the Emancipation Proclamation or the 13th Amendment, let’s stick to the subject at hand and cease changing the subject and inventing misquotes and false assumptions on my part such as my supposed assertion that all white people are evil and somehow responsible for the institution of slavery. And as for the claim that slavery in the United States should be laid at the feet of the Democratic Party, I ask which arrived here first, the slaves or the Democrats?

It was absolutely perpetuated by racism. Why do you think all that “curse of Canaan” bullshit was brought up in justifications of it? The idea was that black people were inherently inferior and it was their destiny to be enslaved. That was one of the main arguments perpetuated by those who sought to justify slavery. Slavery in the United States was 100% racist.

And just FYI, it’s not a good look to be on the side defending slavery.

@stanleybmanly “2. Is slavery a racist practice or not? Is it racist to teach children that slavery is a racist practice? Am I promoting racism and teaching hatred of white people by raising the topic?” Where in there did you say slavery in AMERICA was a racist practice or not? You didn’t. Trying to change it now is pitiful. And even if you had, you would STILL be wrong. People did not get slaves because they were black and they wanted to keep them down. They got them to do the hard work. If you care to look further into our nation’s history you fill find Irish and Chinese people were likewise enslaved, though the left tries to downplay that since it doesn’t support their incorrect rewrite of history. So it wasn’t just blacks…it was whoever they could get. But blacks were predominate…probably because of their availability and probably because of their cost.
The racism really started after the Civil War when people that were originally slave owners still considered themselves somehow better than those that had been slaves. And those were mainly Democrats. Why do you keep trying to avoid that part of history?

Would you please stop with the “Democrats” bullshit? You know that doesn’t work on me, so can it. I don’t give a shit about Democrats; they are essentially just Republicans who pander to certain social issues. Both parties are trash and constantly bringing them up is a distraction. “Democrats” =/= “liberals” if you’re trying to make some attack on the left. Those trying to keep slavery around were absolutely conservatives, so why don’t you answer for that?

Again, how many Irish or Chinese slaves were freed by the Civil War? When was this conversation EVER about racism anywhere but HERE? And to pretend that slavery IN AMERICA was only a racist practice AFTER the Civil War is downright insane. Slavery was illegal but neither slavery nor racism were invented by the Democrats.

@Demosthenes Yet we are talking about educating our children. We want all the facts, don’t we? After all, why don’t we talk about the people that pushed segregation, fought to keep slavery, passed Jim Crow laws and all that? Isn’t that information important towards getting a full picture of how racism has grown in our nation? It seems like the preferred story from the left seems to be that we should just say white people are the problem and ignore every other fact out there. How is that educating our children? Why would you NOT want to get all the facts out there?
As for me defending slavery, go back and review. I don’t defend slavery. But I don’t defend it because it is inherently wrong in my mind to own another person. People are not commodities. Race has nothing to do with it. I also notice that when the Uyghurs are brought up in China, nobody seems to care. It is slavery going on in the 21st century that many Americans are benefiting from including celebrities taking endorsements. But it isn’t black people so it doesn’t matter? How racist can you get?

@seawulf575 Again, I don’t understand why you’re conflating “the left” with “Democrats”. Do you really think the Southern Democrats who passed Jim Crow laws were left-wing liberals? It’s not about Democrats for me because I have no interest in defending (or attacking, for that matter) either party. Absolutely talk about all that. I just don’t think the fact that they were Democrats is especially important or relevant. It’s not even necessarily that important that most of them were Southern (as racism was certainly extant in the North), but that’s at least more relevant.

@Demosthenes I conflate the left with Democrats because pretty much all the leftists ARE Democrats. Not that all Democrats are leftists, but they do tend to lean that way. And I personally think it is very important to discuss their role in slavery and racism. Segregation and racism became political tools in this country. It IS what those on the left want to claim is the systemic racism. So when you are talking about those things, you have to look at the drivers behind those ideas. And it was 100% Democrats. And while those on the left want to ignore that and claim that what were Repubs are now Dems and vice versa, they have to entirely ignore so many racist things to get there. ”“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”” That was the current POTUS in 2007 when he was running as VP…speaking about Obama. Tell me that is not racist! It still continues, but for some reason no one wants to talk about it.
So I guess the original question should be put to you…what do YOU believe k-12 students should learn about race and racism? You seem to want to exclude the political aspect. Do you think they should learn about systemic racism? Do you think they should learn that only whites were the bad guys when it came to slavery and oppression? What exactly do YOU believe they should be taught?

@seawulf575 I think kids should be taught the history and the reality of slavery and racism in this country. I think they should learn about abolition movement, the Civil War, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, and the Civil Rights movement. I don’t think teaching “which party is bad” should be part of the curriculum. Politics should be kept to a minimum except when covering the political views of historical figures. I don’t think “critical race theory” belongs in a K-12 classroom. Public school teachers are not academics, nor should they be expected to be. Discussions about “power and privilege” probably don’t belong in a K-12 setting. CRT is called a “theory” for a reason; as with many academic theories, it’s contested and debated among academics. Lay people who don’t understand that treat it as undisputed fact. It’s simply one lens among many for viewing history and the current state of racism in this country. History shouldn’t be taught in terms of “bad guys” and “good guys”. There should be a recognition that people are people and all people have flaws. I don’t think we should stop learning about George Washington because he owned slaves. But at the same time I don’t think we should treat historical figures like the founding fathers as flawless saints. Just address the realities and what’s relevant to understanding history.

While I do think “systemic racism” is real, as far as teaching it in K-12 schools, I think it should be limited to teaching about discriminatory laws and practices. I think conclusions like “black people are disproportionately poor because of systemic racism” are too theoretical for the K-12 classroom. If a student wants to write a paper about such a conclusion, they should be free to do so.

@Demosthenes: “I think conclusions like “black people are disproportionately poor because of systemic racism” are too theoretical for the K-12 classroom.”

In what way is this “too theoretical”? How is this not a statement of fact? What could you teach kids about then? (Not a rhetorical question)

@seawulf575 When you ask “do you think they should learn that only whites were the bad guys when it comes to slavery and oppression?” I must ask if you
actually believe that slavery in the United States was not about the oppression of black people to the benefit of whites? And this being the case, why do you deny it being stated aloud?

@stanleybmanly Once again, you are trying to put beliefs into my mouth that just aren’t there. Slavery in this country was about oppression of people. Blacks were a large majority, though Irish and Chinese had their time in the chains as well. Slavery is not about race. It IS about the idea that people own people which is inherently evil in my view.
As for who benefitted? What about the black slave owners? Didn’t they benefit from owning and selling slaves? Slave owners benefitted, regardless of color. See…you are trying to put everything into racism. That is a very racist thing to do. And then, once you spout your racism, you try treating it as fact, which it isn’t. And then want me to legitimize it by entertaining your questions. When you start actually dealing with ALL the facts, your statements and your beliefs cannot stand.

@Demosthenes ” I think kids should be taught the history and the reality of slavery and racism in this country.” Does that reality include black slave owners, the fact that many blacks sold other blacks into slavery and the like? After all, that is part of the reality of slavery, isn’t it?

“I think they should learn about abolition movement, the Civil War, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, and the Civil Rights movement. I don’t think teaching “which party is bad” should be part of the curriculum. Politics should be kept to a minimum except when covering the political views of historical figures.” You and I aren’t so far apart on much of this. And while I agree that teaching which party is bad to, say, k-9 is not meaningful, I believe HS students are ready to look at more of the political views. I certainly was in HS. And you have to stop and think a minute about what you are saying. You obviously want to teach about the abolition movement, the Civil War, Reconstruction, Jim Crow laws, and the Civil Rights movement from the aspect that “Slavery and Racism are bad”. And I agree with that. But how can you do that when politically, one party fought against equality for 200 years? I mean I can hear the simplest of questions right now: “It’s obvious that racism is bad. How can you hate someone just because of the color of their skin? So who thinks that way? Why didn’t this go away long ago??” How do you answer that? You HAVE to talk about the role the Democrats played in ALL these things or else you are just teaching half-truths. In some places, that’s called lying. And in a class where you want to teach the reality of our history, to lie about it is just wrong.

What are your motives for stressing the point that they were (mostly) Democrats? What relevance does it have to contemporary politics? Does it have more or less relevance than teaching that those people were also conservatives and that white conservatives (mainly in the South, though not only) were the primary opposition to civil rights for black Americans?

@Demosthenes I just gave you a perfect example of a modern day Democrat, who now happens to be POTUS, who maintains the racist view point he was raised with and was taught growing up as a Dem. It is most certainly relevant to today’s politics.
But you are also looking at history. History is something we need to be fully aware of so we can learn from our past. And the actions towards keeping segregation in this country were ALL politics. It was THE talking point that politicians would run on to get into office. It was how the Jim Crow laws were written and passed. It is ALL politics. To not talk about that is just wrong. And it is impossible to talk about it without talking about the role the Democratic Party played in our history. Why is it so wrong to talk about that? I mean, it is okay to say that white people supported slavery for their own gain but it is wrong to say Democrats fought to keep slavery and prevent desegregation? Why? It’s like you don’t mind stoking division by race but not politics.

@seawulf575 My questions make perfect sense and you have a brain just barely capable of realizing this. And the proof is that you refuse to answer a single one of them. So I will ask you AGAIN, how many BLACK people in the United States owned WHITE slaves? Take your time. Then tell us if it was legal to own black slaves but not white slaves, why that is not an issue of race and a paradigm example of racism? I am not trying to implant false ideas in your head. That space is more than cluttered with the most preposterous bullshit I have yet to encounter. You should be on exhibit in some institution as the poster boy justification for emergency crt instruction nationwide.

@seawulf575 Yes, you provided an example of a contemporary Democratic politician who said something stupid. I could provide a million examples from both parties. Now if you’re trying argue that what Biden said is somehow an extension of historical opposition to civil rights from Southern Democrats, that is stupid.

And I agree that history should be emphasized and the facts enumerated. It is clear that you have been severely shortchanged on both. For example, the Democratic party appeared on the scene better than 100 years after slavery’s institutionalization in the South, and there were NO white slaves to be oppressed by the Democratic party. So YES. SOUTHERN Democrats WERE decidedly RACIST. And thus SLAVERY in the United States was a racist prospect and you have to be an idiot to insist otherwise.

@stanleybmanly Your racism is showing through again. The point of black slave owners is not to show they owned white slaves (which they might have…Irish in particular), but to show that slavery was not a racist practice. You just can’t have racism is it is black owning black…right? I know your little brain is frantic to avoid this fact but you can’t use racist questions to avoid it. How about this…you answer the question that was asked of you before? How can it be racist if you have black slave owners (that own black slaves)? And yes, that is in the US and yes, it is during the same time all the slavery was going on. Or how about this question: Are you actually saying it wasn’t slavery because it was blacks owning blacks? Or is it more that slavery is okay as long as you keep it in your own race? At some point even you have to see how stupid your arguments really are, claiming that slavery is racist.

And @stanleybmanly you might want to get our facts straight. The Democratic party was actually formed in 1790. Since this country was started in 1776, it is literally impossible for the Democratic party to be 100 years after this country institutionalized anything. 14 years after declaring our independence, they popped up onto the scene.
But I find your arguments to be hilarious. You are so desperate to not have to damn the Democratic party AND to claim slavery is racist, you actually said they were racists from the start. So which is it? Is the Democratic party responsible for much of the racism in this country or not? If they are, your argument that slavery is racist has a leg to stand on. A wobbly leg, but a leg. If they are NOT responsible for much of the racism, they slavery is not a racist practice. Choose your poison, son.

@Demosthenes And you entirely ignored the entire concept of having to point to the political aspect of racism in this country. Which is it? Was there systemic racism or not? If there was, you HAVE to discuss political views and how we got there. If there was not, then why talk about Jim Crow laws or abolitionists or anything else? Don’t you realize the entire discussion revolves around politics?

So you believe that slavery was institutionalized only after it was formally acknowledged and specified in the Constitution? Is that what you were taught? And you keep insisting on this foolishness that I somehow believe the Democratic Party guilt free regarding slavery and solidification of racism in the country. I believe it’s perfectly fine to teach that there was a sprinkling of black slave holders in places like New Orleans and South Carolina, just as there were black soldiers in the Confederacy. There were Native Americans included the Cavalry units that exterminated other Native Americans. Teach that as well. But there is no way in hell you can claim yourself an educated and rational individual if you view the facts then conclude that both the extermination of the Indians and institutional slavery in the United States are NOT examples of rampant racism. And once more, can you give me a SINGLE example of an Irish, Chinese or white slave emancipated by Lincoln or the Civil War? And I concur 100 percent that racism was and IS political and just as with slavery and segregation RACISM was both legitimized and enshrined in the laws of the country from day one. Of course it was and IS a political issue. And as @Demosthenes has told you and I can assure you that as with everything else we fight over, your sorry ass and the rest of your conservative ilk is decidedly (and dependably) on the wrong side of history.

@stanleybmanly Nope, but institutionalized in THIS country yes. You can’t have something institutionalized in a country if the country doesn’t exist.
You keep talking about how slavery was legitimized and enshrined in the laws of our country form day one. What is your source? Please cite it.

The document is THE CONSTITUTION Article 1, section 2, clause 3. Read it and weep!

And I will concede that slavery was an institution BEFORE we were a country. It would have to be if the founders were SLAVEHOLDERS. The war, like the institution and racism itself are STILL not recognized for what they are by the LOSERS then and YOU losers today. Bury your rebel head in the sand. History will roll your silly asses over as you well deserve.

@stanleybmanly That doesn’t legitimize or really enshrine slavery as anything. It just accounts for the numbers. Sort of like a census that counts illegals. Does that legitimize illegal immigration?

Unfortunately, the courts subsequently disagreed with you and continued to disagree with you until passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964. And again, where are all the Irish and Chinese folks designated as three fifths people?

In the same place. Read the text that YOU cited. Where does it talk strictly about blacks?