Do you find it hard to be sympathetic to vocal anti-vaxxers who die of COVID?

I just shrug, now. And I’m angry. I have friends and loved ones who live and work in high anti-vax areas, my concern is for them. If one suicides by endangering others, I don’t mourn their death.

_”…Any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”

-John Donne

No. It’s tragic to me that these people died unnecessarily, simply because they didn’t have the knowledge or sense to make better choices. I’m grateful that I was taught how to evaluate (un)trustworthy sources, in school and at home. Many just didn’t get the same set of tools.

I have empathy for victims of “voluntary” suicide, too. And I can be distraught that anti-vaxxers are endangering others, and still feel sorry for them, living in that confusing world where facts don’t matter and everyone is out to get you.

Anti-vaxxers are dangerous and stupid bastards, and the vocal ones with significant media platforms are a particularly pernicious threat to public health.

Their words and actions are have led to greater transmission of the disease, and an unquantifiable increase in mortality and long Covid cases.

I have no sympathy at all. Their deaths and last minute regrets serve as some redress to the damage they’ve caused.

I’ve some pity for people taken in by the misinformation of vocal anti-vaxxers, and sympathy for the people who have to be around them because they happen to be family or friends.

My body, my choice. They chose, they died. I too shrug. It is sad that someone died, but they died their way, not someone else’s.

I refuse the jab. I had covid before they knew most of the symptoms. It was harsh. I survived. I know first-hand what I’m facing if my antibodies leave, and I get it again.

If I die, don’t mourn me. If I continue to live a fair length of time without accomplishing or experiencing much more than I have so far, mourn that.

Being opposed to an experimental drug (by definition not a vaccine) is not being an anti vaxxer. Me, I don’t care who gets it, if they want it, but everyone so far is the human trial. EVERYONE.
I did my part for modern medicine. I’m done. The government used two experimental drugs on me without letting me know they were not FDA approved.
With my permission, I donated bone marrow several times for research. I have donated blood.

Fuck anyone who demeans me for making my choice, and demanding the right to do so. I don’t judge anybody else for their choice. If being a lab rat is what they want, do that. Just don’t expect me to think them special.

@Patty_Melt What if your choice kills my father? Mother? Wife? Niece? Best friend? Or are you self-quarantined?

From @Kropotkin Their deaths and last minute regrets serve as some redress to the damage they’ve caused.

I haven’t read about many that have regrets. If anything, quite the opposite – they proudly and stubbornly claim that they would make the same choice again. No sympathy here.

Covid changed the world for a while but we could have had a do-over with vaccinations and masks. Non-vaxers are changing it permanently.

And does anyone know why the hell they spell it with 2 and 3 x’s? Is it an “I’m so proud and better than everyone else!” thing?

@Patty_Melt There have been ~4,300,000,000 “experimental drug” shots administered worldwide.

At what point will you be satisifed that the vaccine has passed its ‘experimental phase’ and becomes a real vaccine?

Also, this isn’t about obtuse people refusing the vaccine for whatever irrational reasons they harbour. It’s about vocal propagandists spreading misinformation and disinformation, a bit like some of the nonsense you’re parroting on here.

@smudges The ones I’ve read about have been tragically rueful. If you’ve got a link to any who stubbornly claim they’d still refuse vaccination even before they’re about to die, that would be interesting.

I’m not sympathetic with the ones refusing to get vaccinated. They are the ones keeping the virus alive and killing children and others that have compromised immune systems.

People who try to be influencers, others than those in the know, should shut up.
However, many people who are in the know, are shut up because they don’t tout the desired narrative.
After the email reveal, I can’t imagine ANYONE believing Fauci.

Insofar as me killing anybody, if the shots work, why should they worry?

Children are not getting shots yet.

Yes.

@Patty_Melt The shots work, but aren’t 100%. Bulletproof vests work, but aren’t 100%. My dad is vaccinated but has other health complications. Your choice could kill him in a pretty horrific way. Do you think driving drunk is ok?

I am trying not to be the kind of person who finds joy in the death of someone I don’t agree with.
I moarn them, and wish I could have changed their minds.

@filmfann don’t get me wrong, I find no joy in the deaths of these idiots. But I also have no sympathy, because they don’t deserve it.

Cruel though it may be, when an anti vaxxer lies dying on a hospital bed my sympathies are entirely with the medical staff who risk their own lives by treating them and making their last days as comfortable as possible.

My sympathy levels for these buffoons are in the negative realm.
Honestly, I am rubbing my nipples right now.

I mourn the needless deaths from all causes. We all make our choices.
Mostly I put the blame on the lack of trust in our government by our own people.

It seems like those articles are designed to convince people to get vaccinated, but I don’t know if they really have any effect. I don’t think much about anti-vaxxers and the attention-grabbing articles about them. They made their choice. I don’t believe in forcing anyone to make a different choice.

One article I read in the Washington Post was clearly written to be persuasive. Others are more objectively news articles.

I’m a bit angry that I have to pay for their medical and insurance expenses.
The recent numbers from my county show 99% of the serious cases in the hospital here are in unvaxxed. 1% are vaxxed.
The chances of getting the latest Covid Delta variant are 8 times higher in unvaxxed than in vaxxed.
There is now a concern that hospitals are filling up with unvaccinated Covid patients and there is “no room at the inn” for people with other issues.

People can play the “my body my choice” card if they accept responsibility for their actions and pay full price for their medical expenses. – or even 50% – and stay indoors and away from others so they do not spread it.

^Well said.

@Kropotkin Here’s an article:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/unvaccinated-man-refuses-covid-19-vaccine_n_60fa7515e4b0e92dfec1d994

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/louisiana-covid-19-hospital-unit/

I’ve heard about more cases, but they could be along the lines of ‘folk lore’. Nevertheless, when people believe in something, they can be exceedingly stubborn, so this attitude doesn’t surprise me regardless of how ignorant it is.

I feel that, yes, indeed everyone has the right to take or refuse the vaccin.
And you have the right to tell or don’t tell your reasons, be you pro or anti.
In this situation though, I feel, that there’s one big factor, an added one, that one could/should(?) add to the equation; will my decision affect my fellow men?
And not only the fellow men that are my family members, but also the neighbor, the children, yes, actually, all world citizens, in a way.
That is not said to shame people who decide(d) not to vaccinate.
Merely to appeal to their emphatic abilities (had they not thought of that before).

@rebbel I agree. Here in Missouri it’s now targeting 0–11 year old’s hardest. I don’t understand how you could still be proud of, or even want your ‘freedom’ when babies are paying the price.

@KNOWITALL Have any of the children died from it?

@rebbel – I totally agree that everyone has the right to refuse to take the vaccine.

However, that person is not immune from me thinking he is wrong. His right to refuse doesn’t take away my right to an opinion.

Yes, I find it hard. I’d say impossible.

It’s one thing if someone is hesitant and nervous because they can’t sort through the information and simply are overwhelmed and confused.

It’s another thing if someone is vocal, hateful, telling others not to get the vaccine, and spreading outright lies.

@chyna Two children died recently in the Memphis metro area. A friend there sent me this article. https://dailymemphian.com/section/business/article/23290/severe-pediatric-covid-cases-on-the-rise?utm_source=email_edition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NA_EMAIL_PREVIEW_ONLY&fbclid=IwAR1-XCbipy3XxDF0eFnmcb8580koHSzRv_QJWpk_pFwrso0iQhoAA4CCSkQ He’s very concerned about children, he thinks Delta might be more dangerous for children than the original virus. I’m not sure about that, I think more kids are catching COVID because no one is taking any precautions the last few months. More kids sick, more will die, it’s just a numbers game. I know there have been several children hospitalized in South Florida too, I don’t know if any died there. I think he said they have a couple of infants.

I have no idea if the parents are anti-vaxxer never took COVID seriously people in the cases of the children.

Florida is saying 96% hospitalized are unvaccinated. My guess is Florida will probably have slightly more breakthrough cases than the average, because of our older population.

A doctor where I live messaged me saying he thinks unvaccinated doctors should have to take care of COVID patients in the hospital.

@Patty_Melt You are wrong. There is 20+ years research that led up to this vaccine, plus millions of people protected by it.
I could go on and on about what other things you most likely willingly subject yourself to (riding in cars for example, known causes of death to thousands of people every year).

@Patty_Melt Believe Fauci about what? Over 95% of hospital cases are unvaccinated?

@chyna Not in my state yet but up to 5 a day hospitalized. They have a better survival rate but can spread it so fast like at school, camp, etc..

I’m sorry for anyone who dies needlessly. But that does not mean I want them anywhere near me or those I care about.

I guess I need a few clarifications on the question. What do we mean by “Anti-vaxxer”? Someone that rejects all vaccines on principle or someone that doesn’t trust the specific Covid vaccines?

Is there proof that the given vaccine will protect you from getting the disease and dying? With all the breakthrough cases that are happening I would say no. Neither does it prevent those people from spreading the disease, as we now know. Quite the opposite actually. Those with the vaccine that get the disease carry just as much virus in their nasal cavity as an unvaccinated person does. So should we have sympathy for someone who got the vaccine and then got the disease and spread it around while feeling superior to others?

And does this question imply that I should lose sympathy because a person died? Or does it mean I should lose sympathy if a person dies in a way I think is stupid and preventable? How about someone that commits suicide? Should we have sympathy for them because they were so depressed they decided to take their own life….which is easily preventable?

@seawulf575 “Is there proof that the given vaccine will protect you from getting the disease and dying? With all the breakthrough cases that are happening I would say no.”

There’s ‘proof’ that it greatly reduces the probability of getting ill and dying.

” Neither does it prevent those people from spreading the disease, as we now know. Quite the opposite actually. Those with the vaccine that get the disease carry just as much virus in their nasal cavity as an unvaccinated person does.”

No, not “quite the opposite actually” at all. There’s good and mounting evidence that double vaccination also reduces transmission rates and of getting infected at all.

“So should we have sympathy for someone who got the vaccine and then got the disease and spread it around while feeling superior to others?”

This is a self-serving scenario that you’ve just imagined to try to make a point. You’re not going to make a valid inference like this. What we can do is look at data and significant population sizes, and then we see vaccinated people are getting infected a lot less, transmitting a lot less, getting ill a lot less, and dying a lot less.

What the question implies is this: should we feel sympathy for someone who spreads dangerous misinformation that almost certainly causes death and suffering in those who are influenced by that information, and then that person dies because they followed the same ignorance they were spreading.

@seawulf575 Are you arguing that the vaccine is no more effective than placebo at preventing infection by COVID-19? Or that because the efficacy is below 100%, it’s not worth getting? Or something else?

@Kropotkin “No, not “quite the opposite actually” at all. There’s good and mounting evidence that double vaccination also reduces transmission rates and of getting infected at all.” Apparently you are behind the times. The CDC and other organizations are finding that fully vaccinated people are catching Covid-19 and are transmitting it as well. Especially with the Delta variant.

@gorillapaws No, I’m not even vaguely suggesting the vaccines don’t help. What I AM suggesting is that the original question is extremely heartless and full of vagaries. It makes all sorts of suggestions that (a) if a person were fully vaccinated they couldn’t catch the disease and die, (b) that if someone dies in a way that isn’t preventable (other than old age) then we shouldn’t feel sympathy for that person, and ( c) That if you get the vaccine you are somehow superior to everyone else.

@seawulf575 If the person never would wear a mask, or wore one reluctantly when forced but spread misinformation about masks, never took covid seriously, posted everywhere on social media “99.99% live!” or “I’m healthy and God will protect me” and literally. carelessly, constantly put themselves and others at heightened risk, and continue to do so, and also will not take the vaccine because of their same dismissal of covid, and continue to say covid is a commy hoax, then why should anyone have sympathy for them? They never cared about anyone else. If their IQ is below 80 or if they are 14 years old I would forgive them, because they actually are physically less able to process information, and are likely to rely on whatever adult is around them. If the person always took it seriously, but is afraid or unable to take the vaccine, that is a different case.

@seawulf575: Fully vaccinated people are catching the Delta variant but way, way less than unvaccinated. The hospitalization rate and rate that end up in ICU is way lower for vaccinated people,

@JLeslie Why should anyone have sympathy for them? How about because they are human? Or do you only care about people that agree with everything you believe?

@jca2 Yes, they are catching the disease. Which is exactly what the government was saying WOULDN’T happen. They even said it would be effective against the Delta variant. In fact when Breakthrough cases started to happen, they treated them as a fluke. On top of that, you have idiot questions like this one that act like the person that got the disease and died wouldn’t have died if they had gotten the vaccine. The facts don’t support that at all.

The vaccines appear to be helping some in prevention, but it is not anywhere near as fail-safe as it was/is being touted. It doesn’t help that the CDC stopped reporting asymptomatic or mild breakthrough cases at all and are only reporting those that require hospitalization or result in death. And the death rate appears to be even worse than with the original Covid. The original covid had between 1% and 5% of the cases that resulted in hospitalization and only 0.65% that resulted in death. Recent numbers from the CDC showed that as of July 26th, the CDC said there were 6,587 Covid-19 breakthrough cases including 6,239 hospitalizations and 1,263 deaths. Those numbers belie the effectiveness of the vaccines (since breakthrough cases, by definition, are those that were fully vaccinated. Given those numbers, almost 95% of the breakthrough cases resulted in hospitalization and 19% of the breakthrough cases result in death.

Apparently the CDC has boxed themselves into a corner. Either they have to start reporting ALL the cases, not just the serious ones, or they have to admit that the vaccines actually result in a higher chance of death if you get the disease. If they report all the cases, then the effectiveness of the vaccines really takes a hit and if they don’t then it looks like the vaccines increase the chance of death if you get a breakthrough case.

@seawulf575 Your logic is deeply flawed on multiple levels. For one thing, you should know better than to compare the mortality rates across different strains and use that as evidence against vaccination.

@gorillapaws I might agree with you, if the government hadn’t already tried establishing the effectiveness of the vaccinations against the different strains. So which is it? Are both I AND the government flawed in which case the effectiveness of the vaccinations is a sham OR are we both right and therefore they are killing people at a higher rate?

@seawulf575 Yes, I would have minimal sympathy because they are human, but I have that for killers on death row too.

I have a feeling we might be miscommunicating. I have a friend who will not get vaccinated. I understand why she is afraid, she has multiple autoimmune diagnosis, and had a bad reaction to a vaccination once before. She is a Republican, she does get caught up in the “Democrats are socialist stuff,” and also caught in some of the anti-vax info which increases her fears. She masked up as soon as people started wearing them, she has never called covid a hoax. She has never said crackpot things about the vaccines like Bill Gates wants to kill people.

Just this past Friday she asked me to sub for her for Zumba, she wasn’t feeling well, and I told her because of the current situation with the cases going up I am not doing any classes indoors for a few weeks. She said she understood. No screaming at me that the media is trying to scare people, no saying to me “I thought you were vaccinated?” If she caught covid and died I would have sympathy for her and be very mournful. In my opinion she is not an anti-vaxxer though, and the Q is about anti-vaxxers.

The people who are off the wall nuts who actually further messaging that is killing people are the people I have little to no sympathy for. I have a friend who is like that. If she got severely ill it possibly would save many other lives. I certainly don’t wish any illness on her, what I wish is that she would stop spreading information that is hurting individuals and the country. I would be sad if she died, frustrated. I know she doesn’t have a bit of malice in her, but what she is doing is destructive.

@JLeslie And how do you know what is factual and what isn’t? Only what the government is telling you? The media? The government tells us the vaccines are safe. The media tells us that those that question that are whack-jobs. Yet the vaccines are not FDA approved. Which means the full testing was never done. The government tells us mRNA is a god-send and is great at killing this virus. Yet the pharma companies have been working on it since 1990 and have never made one thing with the technology. They could never get past animal testing. Until this vaccine, when they were allowed to start animal trials when they started injecting humans. I’m not asking you to believe what I say. I urge you to research it for yourself. I had this exact conversation with my doctor the other day and he couldn’t come up with anything mRNA has ever been used for either. He looked a bit uneasy that I had a concern for which there wasn’t a ready answer. I would welcome someone to tell me what mRNA has been used for before…especially in the form of a vaccine.

My fear is that in another year, there will be all sorts of after effects and these millions upon millions of people will suddenly have serious problems. The chances of getting Covid are relatively low. But there is still a chance. The chances that our government is lying to us is much higher. The virus doesn’t have an agenda. I’ve never seen a politician that didn’t have one.

I’m trying to think of any ways in which my attitude regarding this disease has shifted since covid arrived. I thought then and said so here that this would be a long term outbreak, possibly lasting years and certain to be underestimated in both its extent and severity. And given the historical record, that was by no means a particularly brilliant supposition. Any prediction based on the probability of public behavior should be seasoned with all the pessimism of experience available. Thus, with cynicism the rule, and the resulting crisis conforming to my expectations, my only alarm is in underestimating the inexplicable numbers of us for whatever reasons unwilling to be vaccinated. This I find stunning, but have not the least doubt regarding its implications. The disease in its variants is going to be with us longer and is quite likely to devolve into more or less defining our way of life. Masks are as likely to be as ubiquitous to our foreseeable future as cell phones and 2 day Amazon deliveries, with booster shots the routine. The most depressing aspect to living and the single most shocking thing I would have never expected is that I am now both fortunate and grateful to be old.

The recent news from our local hospital is that 100% of the Covid cases are in the Unvaccinated now. It was 98%. 70% of people are vaxxed here. None of them are in the hospital for Covid.

Please listen to this plea from the medical director of a hospital in Louisiana.
We are running out of room for other patients

@seawulf575 You know I love ya’. But this time you are wrong. The vaccines work. Please listen to the video. For 7 minutes listen to something other than your usual source.

So, okay @seawulf575 , don’t take it. But stay home or wear a mask when you have to go out.

@seawulf575 If you’re afraid of long term effects then fine don’t get the shot now. As long as you aren’t on Facebook telling people COVID is fake (I’m sure you’re not, you had COVID after all) and not saying things like the deaths are fake and encouraging people to ignore being cautious then I’m ok with it. My QAnon friend actively tells people to go out, never wear a mask, let’s have a party, the vaccines are poison, the government wants businesses to fail, and so many things that are quite obviously crazy and lies.

I even feel you are relatively safe since you had COVID, but I only mean I’m upset about people encouraging bad behavior of others based on lies and hysteria.

@LuckyGuy It is perfectly okay to disagree, as long as we aren’t disagreeable about it. But please note when you are telling me to listen to a Youtube video, what my usual source is. I have cited Newsweek (who was citing the CDC), MSN (citing the CDC), and my own doctor in this thread alone. Just so we are on the same page as to what my “usual source” is.

@JLeslie Despite popular belief, I don’t believe COVID is fake. I might believe it is being hyped, but don’t believe it is fake. I believe it is real, that it makes people sick and kills some as well. And also, despite popular belief, I would dearly love to see actual, solid, science supporting actions that might battle this disease. What I DO believe is that we all need to be informed. Not just by politicians or organizations that are influenced by politicians, but by science.

An example of this is my arguments against masks. I have found too many studies that point to them NOT being effective to believe that they really are. Especially the kind of masks people are told are okay to wear and not in the way they are wearing them. But the masks really aren’t the problem with this argument. It is the false sense of security they breed which results in people believing they are safe and not taking common sense actions to actually help stop the disease. In other words, they get closer to others because they feel they are safe which results in more transmission of the disease.

Like with any problem in the world, if you don’t understand what is actually going on, and how your actions are going to interact with the problem, you are likely going to make it worse.

@seawulf575 Like I said, I am sure you are not one of the people who think covid is fake.

As far as masks, your failure to accept masks as a proven way to prevent spread of the disease is part of the reason jellies have a big problem with whatever sources you must be listening to. How do explain Taiwan doing so well? They didn’t close any businesses or schools. They masked up. They did close their border, which helped keep initial cases from getting in, but they did have covid on the island, and they easily could have had it grow and multiply much beyond what it did. They masked and quarantined.

@JLeslie I’m laying my money on the quarantining more than the masks. They likely actually do quarantines as opposed to what we do in this country.