Do you feel that the vaccine is becoming an “us against them” civil war type thing?
Asked by
chyna (
51598
)
August 31st, 2021
from iPhone
We had a meeting at the hospital I work in yesterday to discuss Covid, vaccines, masks, etc. During the meeting it was discussed that being vaccinated may or may not be mandatory by October. And that there would be consequences for those refusing. A few of the nurses were so angry, they were actually crying. They felt their rights were being taken away, that there was no proof that the vaccine works (really?), etc. I sat there thinking that this could become really ugly all over the US if even health care workers refused to see that vaccines work. After the meeting, the nurses passed out a paper to call your senator to stop mandatory vaccines.
How out of control do you think this will get?
Observing members:
0
Composing members:
0
73 Answers
Absolutely it’s us against them. Anybody who refuses a vaccine is obviously “mentally ill”, etc.
Here’s a newsflash. Just because somebody doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they are incompetent or mentally ill.
It already is an us and them, but I do think the hard core anti covid vaccine are only about 10–15% of the population. The other people who are not yet vaccinated just need to be urged, ostracized, told to do it, or given a way to save face when they change their mind and get the shot.
The problem with the percentage of people who are vehement against the vaccine is they are often clustered together in communities and areas of the country, so locally it does not feel like a small percentage.
I think some of those people complaining will give in and get the shot. The people actually crying might be more difficult, because I guess they are very afraid.
Can your hospital function if the unvaccinated employees walk out?
@JLeslie It would put a burden on my facility if they did walk out. But the thing is, we are the last facility in my area to mandate vaccines. So they couldn’t get another job within 100 miles.
@chyna That’s interesting. I think most people will submit to the vaccine. Loss of control is very upsetting to people, some people cry, some get very angry, but eventually they move into acceptance and do what’s necessary. I go through this myself even though I’m aware of the pattern.
Did your hospital bring the shot to the employee while working in their department? Or, did the employee have to walk over to a specific room to get the vaccine?
We had to go to a specific place to get it.
@chyna When I worked at a hospital a nurse came around to the departments to give TB tests and flu shots. If you refused you refused in front of everyone present while most people were putting their arm out without question. The nurse was not there to argue or force anyone, but she could answer any questions.
She had a list of all employees and checked them off as she gave the shots.
The method could backfire if you have a higher percentage of people who won’t vaccinate.
We already do have that. Even here on fluther, there are angry no-vaxxeds proclaiming that they have done their “research” and citing political fringe publications with articles claiming that it’s all bunk. Because the “research” of some guy who hasn’t used a microscope since 10th grade biology class is as valid as the research of countless virologists, epidemiologists, microbiologists, etc.
I agree with @JLeslie that the anti-vax folks, while certainly vocal, are probably a much smaller percentage of the population.
I think it is less likely to be a civil war and more similar to the backlash against anti-smoking laws and regulations years ago. Between tax hikes on cigarettes and most businesses, schools, transportation and even entire cities/towns going non-smoking, there was a lot of talk about infringing on smokers rights and such. Now, folks who smoke are pariahs who have been relegated to smoking in their cars or by the dumpster in the alley next to work. Try lighting up a smoke while waiting at a bus stop and see the reaction you get from people.
I feel this is more similar to that, just maybe amplified due to social media.
For the record, I’m fine with the marginalization of smokers (I grew up with a chain smoker) and I’m fine with the same happening to anti-vax people.
The war is against the virus, and the unvaccinated are going to a war unarmed.
Everything else is trying tell people to adequately defend themselves. I suppose it’s ironic in the most militaristic gun-loving nation on Earth that so many Americans aren’t willing to defend themselves against this threat.
@Kropotkin The people crying and angry don’t think of it as a war against the virus (I don’t think so anyway) but I agree with you that they are unarmed in the war against the virus.
Many of us keep thinking if enough of them die from the virus they will finally call a truce and the rest will get on board, but I’m not so sure it will ever be enough death for them. Not from this virus anyway.
Many of these people are raised to feel and believe sacrifice and dying for beliefs is honorable. We are dealing with Klingons when talking about the most extreme people in these groups.
It sort of is becoming that way.
Every person has the right to decide whether to vaccinate or not.
And I have the absolute right to criticize their decision and think that they are idiots if the decide not to.
Their decision doesn’t take away my ability to judge them.
To me it’s like a one sided them against us. Who’s doing all the screaming at school board meetings? Not us. Who is creating scenes all over the country? Not us.
@Dutchess_III Plenty of “us” are screaming on social media to WEAR A MASK! Or, to GET VACCINATED! I see it all the time.
I don’t see screaming, at least not on my feed. I see calm logic on why you should get the vaccine. The posts are never laden with profanities and name calling. I’ve never seen it written in all caps with a thousand exclamation marks thrown in for good measure.
Maybe your feed is different.
@Dutchess_III Caps is screaming. I agree “we” are not posting a bunch of swearing and false information. Although, definitely posting manipulated statistics and some misleading and loaded words, which is typical in everything these days.
Yes I do, and it could have dire consequences.
Maybe some of you don’t realize it but today many truckers are going on strike against the forced vaccines.
Nurses and other healthcare workers are quitting their jobs after decades (when Boomers are dying left and right.)
What I see here and on many leftist social media, is some kind of vaccine-shaming and I think it’s really deleterious to our society and to ending the pandemic.
I could be all wet, but I think a lot of this anti vax crapola stems from Christian End Times eschatology, pertaining to the Mark of The Beast, some strange idea of Saint John the Revelator, about a mark that will be forced on people and that other wise they will be unable to buy, sell, etc. But that if they do accept it. they can lose their soul. A lot of folks out there really and truly believe in this tripe. One more reason I have absolutely zero use for organized religion of any stripe or flavor.
@KNOWITALL and what I have seen and experienced in public, even here in my well-educated and well-vaxxed state, is people getting in my face to mask shame me. Grown men approaching me (a small, chubby, grey-haired lady) to call me a sheep and tell me I’m stupid. They stand in my way when I am walking and one guy tried to revert me from getting into my car so he could keep badgering me.
That’s a LOT more deleterious than something you can scroll by. Geez.
That’s why I say it’s a one sided them against us thing @canidmajor. You’re just going along, minding your own business and some asshole gets in your face for wearing a mask.
Glad I’ve never had that experience.
Care to share some of the “manipulated statistics” to which you refer @JLeslie?
To some, yes. The ignorant and the confrontational.
If some dunderhead got in my face and called me a sheep, I’d look them straight in the eye and say, “BAAA!”
@Nomore_lockout That’s what I’ve been saying. It’s all wrapped in religion to manipulate these people.
@kritiper No, when you’re a small women who has had larger men being “at” her for a half-century, you duck and get out of there. The attitude, the approach, all the same, but the reasons are different now. I thought I was past all that when I stopped being conventionally attractive, now I am just the target of ignorant bullies, and I am still small and female.
My previous post should read “prevent” instead of “revert”. Sorry.
LOL @kritiper Don’t blame ya one bit bud. That said, I don’t mind playing games with these a holes. I make them think I’m nuttier than they are. It’s all a conservative plot to murder all the Dems / Libs, invented by Repubs in a secret CIA lab. I wear a mask because I don’t have the antidote all of you people were given. No one has gotten in my face, but I have been queried about my mask wearing. That response works every time. But maybe it’s time all of us put on our big boy / big girl pants. and start acting like adults rather than tantrum throwing two year olds. The US looks like a gigantic freaking nursery school, compared to most other nations. And that can apply to some peeps on our own side as well.
@Dutchess_III One easy stat off the top of my head is 10,000 students quarantined in Hillsborough County. They never say how many children are actually positive with covid.
Another is unvaccinated cases in hospitals, but it was almost impossible to get stats on breakthrough cases when they first started happening.
Also, Pfizer and Moderna having over 90% efficacy and supposedly it didn’t matter they were tested in places with low infection, but then J&J it did matter and that supposedly explained the lower efficacy rate. Then J&J one and done when it was obvious if anyone thought about it for a half a second that a booster would be likely.
Our side seems to not question anything the CDC, NIAID, or FDA says, which I don’t understand at all. Even those organizations are always questioning and reevaluating.
What are you talking about @JLeslie? Have a link or 2 to share?
@canidmajor It happened here to my husband as well, so I do understand.
I’m certainly not condoning that behavior BUT I do also see the ugly comments from the masked and vaxxed, too.
It’s as polarizing as abortion right now when we it comes to bodily autonomy.
Just to be very clear, medical or religious exemptions are the only way some are keeping their jobs while not being vaxxed. I personally haven’t heard anyone say the truly have a religious reason, but for legal purposes they say it.
Like medical mj users and their stress or migraines, it’s simply a way to skirt the system.
“Seeing ugly comments” doesn’t begin to equal personal confrontation. And why should I be nice? Most of these people are endangering countless innocents. You mention abortion as a comparison, but if my neighbor has an abortion, the pregnant woman down the street won’t miscarry because of it.
My anger is justified, scroll on by if you don’t like what someone says on line.
@JLeslie I have no doubt that some of the meds you are taking have an insert with a long list of side effects, perhaps even one or two have been advertised by lawyers as having class action lawsuits.
What about vitamins? Vitamins are not approved by the FDA. I’m not saying just you, but most of us. They have been studying mRNA for 20 years, and I haven’t seen any side affects presented as a scientific study. Maybe on Facebook or some obscure news outlets will say there are, but I’ve yet to see them.
@KNOWITALL Comparing abortion to vaccines is not in any way comparable.
Angered at being offered a working healthcare system and outraged at being offered a vaccine that works. I’m surprised America even has hospitals.
@JLeslie I wonder who they think is responsible for their medical bills when they are hospitalized in the ICU?
@janbb Great question. By the way this friend (actually his wife is my friend really) is a Pastor. He and his wife were very careful in the beginning of covid, took it very seriously, but as time has worn on they are more and more sucked into some of the fears. They might be vaccinated, I don’t know. She has a masters in industrial engineering, very smart.
@canidmajor Okay, I’ll scroll by your posts anyway.
@chyna I said it was as polarizing as abortions, I didn’t compare the two.
When it comes to my body my choice, many liberals are incredibly hypocritical though.
@KNOWITALL You are comparing them, though, especially when you use a phrase that has been exclusively associated with the abortion debate, for almost a half century, to a public health issue. Calling liberals “incredibly hypocritical” in that context is just showcasing your own lack of understanding. Which is also showcased by comparing people commenting on line to actual, physically threatening actions in person.
You are talking in circles, with really no understanding of the context, adding apples and sofas.
@canidmajor If you keep writing my name I will keep responding….sure you want to do this dance again?
I think it is definitely becoming a real life version of the Star Bellied Sneetches. And to make things even worse, I see there is a new study out of Israel that shows natural immunity is better than the vaccines. Yes, I understand it is still early for this and it is not peer reviewed yet, but it is interesting nonetheless. But we insist on treating anyone that has not had the vaccine as some sort of terrorist threat.
But it should be noted that the discussions on forced vaccines are really saying that you will be forced to have a substance put into your body that is not licensed. I think all the pro-vaxxers should think about that for a few minutes. What does it say when the government can force you to take things you might not want or need?
@seawulf575 “This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.”
@Dutchess_III Congrats! After I already pointed out to you that it was not peer reviewed, you managed to come to that conclusion. Good job.
@seawulf575 The problem is that there are people who will catch it without so much as a sniffle but that is not a majority of people. I know a guy whose wife caught covid. It attacked her liver and now she needs a liver transplant. Well, livers were already hard to come by, so what are her chances during a pandemic. So what if that person is wrong. Then days in the hospital putting others at risks and taking up hospital beds and people putting off going to hospitals for things that may turn out to be life-threatening. Also, let’s say your own immune system is great and can combat covid. The shot isn’t going to change that.
Also there are different variants now. Most people ending up in the hospital now are suffering from the Delta Variant. Not what the shots are designed for but the people mostly filling the hospitals are those who were never vaccinated. The rest are getting delta but are well enough to be sent home. The idea is to lessen the load at the hospitals.
@seawulfe575 But it should be noted that the discussions on forced vaccines are really saying that you will be forced to have a substance put into your body that is not licensed. I think all the pro-vaxxers should think about that for a few minutes. What does it say when the government can force you to take things you might not want or need? Back when I was a kid I was made to eat a sugar cube that wiped out polio so that humans wouldn’t have to live in an iron lung. I also was made to take a shot in my left arm that I had to wear a little plastic cup over and still have a scar 55 years late that eradicated small pox. Maybe the government isn’t always wrong. By the way, Pfizer is licensed now.
@Pandora I think you have that backwards. There are people that will catch it without so much as a sniffle but that is not the majority of people. That is true. But the people that catch it and are hospitalized or die are not the majority of people either. The VAST majority of those that have had covid have mild cases. More than a sniffle, less than a trip to the hospital. I am one of those. I had two days of heat/chill (but never a fever) and a couple days of a stinging nose. That’s it. And I am far more part of the majority of covid victims than the dreadful cases.
So if the aforementioned study is true (and I am still saying “if”) then why would we continue to treat those with natural immunities as second or third class citizens? Force them to take something they don’t need, that isn’t going to help them?
Pfizer has full FDA approval. Moderna not far behind.
@chyna I find it interesting that you had to go back 50 years (at least) to find things that the government might have been reliable on when it comes to medical issues. And not all vaccines are bad…never were all bad. But these are suspect in my book. And I should most definitely be allowed to have my opinions and take my chances if I want.
mmkay. Good luck with that.
@seawulf575 How do you 1, identify these people and two there are people who caught it twice.. https://www.wreg.com/news/cdc-unvaccinated-more-likely-to-get-covid-19-a-second-time/ It’s like saying that first flu didn’t kill me so I will never need a vaccination shot against another variant of the flu. Then there is the other thing. Long-term cost. Insurance companies are going to start raising their prices for all the hospital costs due to Covid. Tell me why should I have to pay more for someone who is unvaccinated and ends up in the hospital when I personally take all the precautions I need to, to prevent ending up in the hospital.
I have a pretty sturdy immune system but I’m not God. I can’t forcibly determine whether my immune system will kick this virus to the curb. Also, you can be the fittest person in the world and still get covid. The regular covid only affected the older crowd but now we are seeing an increase of the Delta hitting children.
I think when people like the nurses in the OP’s example get crazy and crying over something like vaccines, and get their heels dug in with stubbornness, they’re helping make it a “us vs. them.”
I also see this outrage in local groups here in NY, where people are nuts about kids wearing masks in school (masks are hurting the kids physically/mentally vs. masks are not a big deal). Some parents are rabid with anger about it – usually the anti-mask ones. The pro-mask crowd doesn’t mind that kids have to wear masks. Luckily, in our school district, an affluent one (not sure if that makes a difference), the parents don’t mind the governor’s mask mandate. Other districts in the area, parents are going nuts.
I’ve never had anybody get mad at me for wearing a mask, but I believe there are lunatics out there who are so insane that they’d approach someone and start screaming. What’s it to them whether someone wears a mask, wears blue hair or green hair, wears winter clothes in the summer or socks with their sandals? More lunacy. This is why gun advocates carry guns.
I wouldn’t trust a nurse to take my temperature if he’s too stupid to understand why covid vaccines are a good thing. Revoke all of their professional licenses and the teaching licenses of their professors.
I’m with @gorillapaws. Nursing might not be the best profession for someone who does not understand the importance of vaccines.
@Pandora If you look up at the study I posted earlier from Israel, there was a much larger population studied. They found the exact opposite of the CDC who worked only with 246 cases. Neither is peer reviewed, neither is an RCT. Given the choice, I’d go with the Israeli study since it is more statistically relevant (because of the larger population) and it doesn’t have the political impact of the US CDC.
I guess the thought process here is either (a) you believe that if you get Covid you will die and therefore you want the vaccination and believe that it will protect you 100% or (b) You believe that if you get Covid you will likely not have severe symptoms and will build up natural immunities and don’t want an unlicensed, new technology substance put into your body.
Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Again @seawulf575 Pfizer has full FDA approval. But you do you and don’t get the vaccine.
@gorillapaws 1 in 8 nurses are against getting the vaccines. thats an awful lot to discount. 12.5% of all nurses are just idiots, is that right? I guess you answered the question though…you ARE looking at vaccines as an us-against-them thing.
@chyna Full FDA approval and being licensed are two different things.
2 out of 10 unicorns are against getting vaccinated too. None of them are licensed. (Just take my word for it and don’t ask question.)
And 9 out of 10 people enjoy gang rape.
@ragingloli That’s absolutely horrible but wow….good one.
@seawulf575 None of those. I believe if I get the vaccine that I have a better chance of not ending up in a hospital bed with my ass up and tubes shoved in me and I free up a bed in a hospital for those who are more vulnerable. Also the transmission rates of covid for those who have been vaccinated it also less, so it is also more unlikely if I should get it that I will transmit it to others. Not foolproof but increased odds over those who haven’t been vaccinated. Only anti vaxers believe that the shot is being advertise as fool proof vaccination. CDC never made such a claim.
My in-laws both were vaccinated.
My FIL is 92 and still recovering. Had he not had the shot he probably would’ve been dead. My MIL is 82 and had her vaccination as well and got a little sick but did a lot better. Both are cancer survivors. My SIL got pretty sick and no longer has covid but isn’t vaccinated. She works in the school system. She wishes she had gotten her shot. Just back to work yesterday and found out she has to stay home again because a teacher who knew she had covid showed up to work. After she sees that she is in the clear to get her covid shot she’s going to get it.
She was avid about not getting the shot. She was an anti vaxxer. Now after getting Covid shes’ reversed her decision and seeing how much worse it could’ve been for my her parents she has seen the light.
My DIL finally got her first Covid shot today.
@Pandora In your response you gave the exact answer that is the root of the problem. You said ” I believe”. You believe it has all these benefits. But you are not everyone. I Believe that the vaccines themselves are unsafe and untested. But my opinion is not yours. It doesn’t make you right or me right, it makes us have differing opinions. But when enough people with one view or the other start screaming and demanding their views are deemed “right” and that any one that doesn’t share them needs to be forced into “believing”, we have what we are living through now. It is most definitely a we/they conflict.
So you’ve got stats on vaccine reactions to prove they’re unsafe and just now being tested on the world’s civilizations? I sure would like to see those.
Wait. It’s just a hysterical emotional reaction to something you don’t understand.
@seawulf575 “12.5% of all nurses are just idiots, is that right?”
There’s a difference between being an idiot and being incompetent at your profession. There are different expectations for healthcare workers than for bus drivers when it comes to medical knowledge. When they don’t understand basic medical facts, that calls into question their ability to competently perform their duties.
If it makes you feel better, I think it would be perfectly fine for NASA to fire anyone who believes the Earth is flat and the Moon landing was fake. Or the Coast Guard to fire anyone who can’t swim.
“I guess you answered the question though…you ARE looking at vaccines as an us-against-them thing.”
It’s not us versus them. It’s humanity versus the virus, and there are plenty of people doing their best to help team virus.
@seawulf575 It’s not belief like believing in God. There are scientific studies that back the science. It’s like saying believing in science is fictional. I use the word believe because I am not a scientist. Now the difference then actually comes to do you believe the Government is lying about the science behind the vaccine and it’s safety. I’m a bit jaded about the Government but not to the point where it makes me doubt everything. I believe if I speed over 100 mph, that I can lose control of my vehicle and crash and die. Is it possible that I am wrong. And I believe should I survive I would be arrested. Now, I cannot claim that I know this without a doubt. How straight is the road, are there cops around and how long will I go at that speed? Unless I traveled the road before and unless I know if there are cops than it’s possible that I can avoid crashing and getting arrested. So I will take the sensible approach. I won’t speed and so I avoid too possible outcomes. Can I still crash. Yes, can I still maybe be pulled over yes. Shots are a precaution like anything else. Now you believe shots can make you sick and that you are invincible and that is fine. But you are more likely to spread the disease and prolong the suffering for everyone else. People like you are also the reason we are going to lose people who die from other causes because the hospital is mostly full with unvaccinated people.
Our diffence of opinion on the matter is about weighing the pros and cons and thinking beyond your own little world. I believe thinking about protecting myself and others who can’t take the vaccine is more important than anything else. Millions have taken the shot and survived. And within those millions, there are going to be people who die from natural causes because their time was simply up and they would’ve died anyway even if they didn’t take the shot. It’s not like the shot cures heart disease, or cancer, or kidney failure. But people try to make this shots and the timing of peoples death related when they are not.
I believe in math. And I follow the better odds and not the pie in the sky odds.
And for the record I am actually fine with people not getting vaccinated if they don’t want to but all too often they are the same selfish people who won’t wear masks or keep others people safety in mind. I don’t really care if the unvaccinated (ones who chose to be) get sick or die. That was their choice. But get sick and stay home. Don’t hog a hospital bed. And be safe and respect those trying to be safe and keep workers safe and children safe. Don’t spread it around if you get mildly sick and figure it won’t kill anyone else because that isn’t true. That isn’t a fact. And no one has the right to make that choice for someone else.
@gorillapaws Your comment starts with the assumption that the nurses are wrong…that the vaccines are completely safe. The VAERS database shows it is hands down the most dangerous “vaccine” ever created (since VAERS was tracking these things). Maybe these nurses DO know something you don’t know. Is that possible? And if it’s possible they know more than you (which I know you can’t admit), then how can you start your comments with the aforementioned assumption?
Here’s a question for you: Is it possible that doctors were pressured into getting the vaccine and that they have been told that, in no uncertain terms, can they say the vaccines are bad at the threat of their job? We’ve seen a big push now for businesses to make vaccinations mandatory. Don’t you believe that could have happened with doctors? Typically nurses are much more outspoken than doctors so it is very natural that they would be more willing to speak out.
@Pandora “There are scientific studies that back the science.” What studies? Please, show me the testing that showed the science was sound…before they started injecting humans. Here’s a clue…it doesn’t exist. But as I asked my doctor, please tell me where mRNA was used before these Covid vaccines. I’m always willing to learn. But I’m not willing to take statements that start with bogus claims, nor am I willing to blindly accept what the MSM and the Government tells me. And they have so politicized the entire thing, it has muddled up the question of who to trust. So I ask more questions. But to date, I have gotten zero actual answers that are backed by any facts at all. Claiming things are safe, but not being able to show the proof is not a solid answer.
Heres the research info on mRNA.https://www.uab.edu/news/youcanuse/item/12059-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-how-could-anything-developed-this-quickly-be-safe It’s not something that was actually developed overnight in some lab. https://www.uab.edu/news/youcanuse/item/12059-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-how-could-anything-developed-this-quickly-be-safe
But something tells me it wouldn’t matter to you who wrote what and said what because you are dug into the idea that it’s not safe and since you don’t work in this field or trust government or scientists or doctors that there will never be enough done to invalidate your fear. I read a meme the other day where its a guy saying I will die for my country and then it goes on to say, Sit down, you won’t even take a shot for your country.
@Pandora
—Truth and science is not in someone’s vocabulary—-
@wulfie. Lol! I have never heard such a conspiracy theory! ALL of the bosses of ALL of the doctors all over the world conspired with each other to force ALL of the doctors to take the vaccine and then to push it to all the other people in the world. How does that work for doctors that have their own businesses, their own clinics? Who is forcing them into your little conspiracy?
I seriously do not care if you take the vaccine or not, but don’t spread lies, theories and fake reasoning. The people that simply say I don’t want to take the vaccine without all the excuses and falsehoods are much more respected than someone like you.
@Pandora I agree with your article…that mRNA has been studied for a long time. I have stated myself that I found it was started in 1990. But the question remains…what has it ever been used for? Even your own article doesn’t answer that. It says they were trying to develop it for an HIV vaccine. Did that ever occur? Not that I know of. That would have been HUGE news. And it says they started looking at using it for influenza vaccines. But again…it was never successful.
Just because it was studied does not mean it was ever successful. And the animal testing was always the killer. With the current batch, animal trials started at the same time as human trials started. In other words, they didn’t have the results of animal trials, in fact hadn’t really even STARTED animal trials before they were injecting humans.
@chyna Unfortunately, it is people like you that require all the explanations. I have stated that I didn’t want the vaccine because (a) I already had the disease and (b) I don’t like how they were developed. Do you know how much abuse I took for not going along with the Jab-Me song the rest of you were singing? I got personal attacks and was called a murderer. And what was the evidence the rest of you have for trusting the vaccines? So far I haven’t seen a single thing other than “the government says its okay” or “there are scientists that say its okay”. But there are also scientists that say they AREN’T okay. Yet you all ignore those…discount them without consideration. Look at these pages and you will see the truth of what I’m saying. Heck, your last statement, the one to which I am now responding, accused me of being a conspiracy theorist spreading false information and using false reasoning. Yet for all that you believe it is false, you really haven’t been able to actually answer my simple questions. Not a single one of you. However you have no problems making personal attacks to try shutting me up. You should know by now that never works on me.
Answer this question 
Composing members:
0
