Regarding the new Texas law, is it illegal to mail someone a RU486 pill?

I am not recommending this, since a RU486 would end the pregnancy, and the patient should have a doctor overseeing it.

Yes. You could be sued.

Probably.

I’m pretty sure that would violate quite a few laws. Not sure if you could get caught, but if you did, you’d probably end up in jail.

What’s stopping someone from driving across the border and going to an out of state clinic?

An out-of-state sender could not be sued under the Texas law because Texas would not have jurisdiction over them (unless they entered the state, of course). An unaware mail carrier could not be sued because the law requires the aid to be given knowingly (though a mail carrier who knew what was being delivered would still be liable).

But while it is currently legal to send and receive RU486 (aka mifepristone) by mail, that is a pandemic-related exception that will end when the pandemic does. Unless the FDA changes its rule about sending it through the mail (which it very well may do given the evidence about its safety), it will soon be a federal crime again to send or receive it through the mail.

Ultimately, it’s the FDA’s rule that matters the most here.

@Blackwater_Park Time, money, and access to transportation. A lot of people seeking abortions lack a sufficient amount of one or more of these things to make an out-of-state trip feasible (especially in a large state like Texas where the trip could take a lot longer than it might in a smaller state like Rhode Island).

I am more curious if the Satanic Temple will be successful in challenging that texas law, using their religious freedom tactic.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/570971-satanic-temple-to-challenge-texas-abortion-law-citing-religious

Texas is 660 miles wide. Not exactly a mornings drive.

@ragingloli The law is also dangerous for conservatives insofar as it creates a backdoor way of violating someone’s constitutional rights. If the US Supreme Court accepts Texas’ rationale for why the law isn’t unconstitutional, then Massachusetts could make an exactly parallel law regarding guns. And that’s just an example. Laws like this put people’s basic rights in the hands of legislators, which is precisely what the Bill of Rights was designed to prevent. No one who believes in the rule of law should be okay with it (though I suppose it’s fine for people who only care about getting their way and don’t foresee a time when the courts might be against them).

@SavoirFaire That is exactly what I was thinking. The potential for this to backfire is huge. The rest of the anti-abortion crowd, the gun grabbers and others will follow suit if this is allowed to stand.

Also, looks like there will be a lucrative black market for the abortion pill in Texas.

I don’t know if this is legit or not, but it crossed my sightline.
https://aidaccess.org/en/?fbclid=IwAR3KgszAylx7QxB57HH4vuC8L1fqmJzKssc35KCiohf19YJGtPsO2B1mOkc

@Blackwater_Park Indeed. If this eventually comes before the Supreme Court—which is likely, but not inevitable—it will be a real test of where the current justices stand on the matter of ideology versus the rule of law.

@canidmajor Aid Access is legitimate in the sense that they are a genuine nonprofit organization focused on harm reduction, but there are questions about how they source the drugs that they are helping people to acquire. Specifically, the organization works with Indian pharmacies, which are not as regulated as US pharmacies. That said, they currently have a “green light” rating from Plan C (an excellent information resource that investigates and rates online abortion pill providers). Aid Access was also the only provider that received an A grade the last time that Plan C issued a report card.

Well, aside from all of the other issues discussed here, you need a script for it, and we all know it’s illegal to give someone a drug that’s not prescribed for them, let alone do it through the mail.

It’s not about being sued, but you could be liable for any harm that the recipient endures because of the medication. But that medication is used along with others. A doctor has to be involved. This is illegal just that same as sharing any other prescription medication.

I think you need a prescription for it. The Texas law is forbidding abortion after 6 weeks, so taking RU486 before that shouldn’t be a problem.

I thought most likely the 6 weeks starts at the day of the woman’s last period, but someone else told me it’s the day of conception. Does anyone know?

It amazes me that some people think a mail order would be illegal. For starters:

1. The supplying company would be out of state, so out of Texas jurisdiction.
2. The mail carrier would not know what is in the package.
3. No one would generally know whether it was for an abortion past 6 weeks, so it could be legal in any case.
4. No, I don’t know that a prescription is needed, nor do I think supplying or receiving that drug is illegal. JLoon wrote that it was available online without a prescription yesterday at https://www.fluther.com/228204/whats-the-best-way-to-respond-to-the-new-texas-abortion/

Furthermore, now that this law exists, it seems to me entirely reasonable and legal for most/all Texas women to get prescriptions for this from their doctors, to take regularly in the appropriate window (probably in combination with pregnancy tests), to avoid persecution under the law. Even one $10,000 lawsuit could financially wreck many people. So most Texan women now have a very reasonable and legal reason to get a prescription for this.

@smudges “Well, aside from all of the other issues discussed here, you need a script for it.”

Yes, but you can get a prescription for it via telemedicine, and Texans can use telemedicine services that operate in other states.

@SnipSnip “You could be liable for any harm that the recipient endures because of the medication.”

This is false. The process of signing up for a (legitimate) self-managed abortion includes liability waivers.

“A doctor has to be involved.”

A doctor has to be involved somewhere along the line to get a prescription, but they do not have to be present for the actual abortion. Plenty of RU486 abortions occur at home.

@JLeslie “I thought most likely the 6 weeks starts at the day of the woman’s last period, but someone else told me it’s the day of conception.”

The six weeks is being calculated from the patient’s last period, but the law actually calls for the detection of a heartbeat.

@Zaku “It amazes me that some people think a mail order would be illegal.”

Why? By default, it is illegal in the US to send RU486 through the mail. There’s only an exception right now because of the pandemic.

“JLoon wrote that it was available online without a prescription yesterday.”

Available, yes. Legally available, no. Every legitimate source for mail order RU486 requires a prescription. As I noted above, however, one can get that prescription (relatively easily) via telemedicine.

“Now that this law exists, it seems to me entirely reasonable and legal for most/all Texas women to get prescriptions for this from their doctors.”

Texan doctors would still be liable if the patient takes the pill outside of the legal window, which might deter some of them from writing prescriptions. Out-of-state options will probably be the safest for now.

“to take regularly in the appropriate window (probably in combination with pregnancy tests)”

I’m not a doctor, and @Caravanfan would be a better source for this, but I’m pretty sure that no one should be taking RU486 regularly.

Why? Because it strikes me as ridiculous that it would be illegal, for the reasons I mentioned.

“Texan doctors would still be liable if the patient takes the pill outside of the legal window, which might deter some of them from writing prescriptions.”
– That should be prima facie ridiculous and thrown out of any sane court, in my opinion, since suppliers don’t control nor know what people do with things nor when.

In Texas, thanks to the terrible law, it’s now entirely reasonable to want some RU486 available, for use with regular pregnancy tests when sexually active, and using other birth control when not wanting to become pregnant, to avoid heinous and ridiculous evil legislation.

@filmfann, @SavoirFaire, @Zaku, @JLeslie, and @Everyone – Sexual health, including decisions about pregnancy can be sensitive for anyone, and medical questions are often complicated because of individual needs and findings from new research. Laws that try to turn a woman’s womb into government property, like this Big Brother spy network coming out of Texas & other shithole states, just make it harder for everyone to think and make decisions for themselves.

But there a few things I think we may agree on here:

First – As far as self administered abortion drugs, they may be a viable option for any woman who chooses to end a pregnancy. But we’re talking about two different kinds of medication – RU486 which is under strict controls in terms of use and access, and Misoprostol which more available & less expensive. As I read filmfann’s question it’s mostly about RU486. What I posted on a separate fluther thread was regarding Misoprostol. Not the same in terms of pharmacology or legal restrictions.

Second – It’s easy to be confused about access to RU486, because politicians have done their best to keep women from learning about this drug and using it, and the courts have played along. Online purchase and delivery without a prescription is unavailable for RU486 following US Supreme Court decsion on Jan. 12, 2021:
https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/food-and-drug-administration-v-american-college-of-obstetricians-and-gynecologists/

The ruling means patients are required to pick up RU486/mifepristone in person at medical facilities and sign disclosure forms when they do so. The Biden administation could move to change the FDA regulations that make that necessary, but has shown no indication they will. Draw your own conclusions.

Finally – The Texas anti-abortion statue SB 8 is bat-shit crazy in terms of medical & scientific basis, but the only thing worse may be the rumors that are already spreading. The truth is :

• It’s uneforceable outside Texas.

• It doesn’t stop individuals from sending each other medically approved and legally obtained medications through the mail.

• It DOES NOT CRIMINALIZE ABORTIONS, and DOES NOT PROSECUTE WOMEN WHO SEEK OR RECIEVE ABORTION SERVICES. No woman living in Texas who chooses to end her pregnancy can be sued or put in jail. The strategy these fuckwad political cowboys have in mind is to make abortion in Texas a civil offense rather than a felony, and to target doctors, nurses, hospitals, and clinics for the lawsuits instead of individual women. They intend to intimidate, bankrupt, and completely dry up the small network of medical providers who still offer abortion services in their cities and counties.

I know you don’t want to, but it’s time to sit up straight and read what this law actually says about who gets dragged into court and who doesn’t :

Sec. 171.206.  CONSTRUCTION OF SUBCHAPTER;
  This subchapter may not be construed to:              
  authorize the initiation of a cause of action against or the prosecution of a woman on whom an abortion is   performed or induced or attempted to be performed or induced in violation of this subchapter;

Sec. 171.209.  CIVIL LIABILITY:  UNDUE BURDEN DEFENSE LIMITATIONS;

  Nothing in this section shall in any way limit or preclude a defendant from asserting the defendant’s personal constitutional rights as a defense to liability under Section 171.208, and a court may not award relief under Section 171.208 if the conduct for which the defendant has been sued was an exercise of state or federal constitutional rights that personally belong to the defendant.

So please keep thinking, and keep speaking up. Courage, facts, and persistence are what will get everyone through this.

@Zaku “Why? Because it strikes me as ridiculous that it would be illegal, for the reasons I mentioned.”

I agree that it’s ridiculous that it is illegal (under normal circumstances). But what you said was: “it amazes me that some people think a mail order would be illegal.” Since it is in fact illegal (under normal circumstances), it doesn’t strike me as all that amazing that some people think it would be illegal.

@JLoon “What I posted on a separate Fluther thread was regarding Misoprostol.”

Fair enough, but misoprostol also requires a prescription in the US.

“Online purchase and delivery without a prescription is unavailable for RU486 following US Supreme Court decision on Jan. 12, 2021”

That decision was rendered moot this past April.

“The Biden administration could move to change the FDA regulations that make that necessary, but has shown no indication they will.”

Presidents and their administrations cannot directly change FDA regulations. They can influence the FDA through appointments (such as the current Acting Commissioner, who did reinstate the policy allowing RU486 to be sent and received through the mail during the pandemic and is likely to change the rule altogether when the time comes) and they can temporarily block or overrule new FDA decisions via the Department of Health and Human Services (which is currently unnecessary with regard to this matter since the only new decision allows RU486 to be sent and received through the mail).

“No woman living in Texas who chooses to end her pregnancy can be sued or put in jail.”

No one in this thread has said or implied otherwise. Contrary to what you seem to think, some of us have already read the law, and many of us do actually understand what’s going on here.

@SavoirFaire – Nice to hear from you, even if you still seem to misunderstand some of what you read and a few things people are saying. Tiny & obscure fluther is still at least more fair and open than the Texas state legislature ;)

Glad you looked at the January Supreme Court ruling. That decision sucks for reasonable access to a medication nearly all credible doctors agree is safe, and it will likely continue to be a problem. I say that because as the April news article in your link clearly states: “The FDA policy [allowing access without seeing a doctor] only applies during the COVID-19 health emergency”. That’s not exactly what the law considers “moot”. Especially since the same story notes that more “conservative” abortion opponents are already planing to attack any open access to RU486.

And your point about US prescription requirements for Misoprostol is inaccurate, since the sources I referenced in my other post are online pharmacies. Anyone buying approved medications from those providers for their own use is allowed up to a 3 month supply under the FDA’s “personal importation” policy, which we can all check out here :
https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-basics/it-legal-me-personally-import-drugs

And as far as what Good Old Joe does or doesn’t do to help… you’re too kind. Really, too kind.

@SavoirFaire The question has to do with getting the pills and sending them to someone in another state, such as Texas. It is illegal. When you get the prescription you must be pregnant and you must return for the doctor to confirm you are no longer pregnant after you use the pills.

@SnipSnip – filmfann has already heard that. But it’s not the only answer.

And what you say isn’t the last word. That will come from women who find the means they need to decide when and how they have children.

@JLoon “As the April news article in your link clearly states: “The FDA policy [allowing access without seeing a doctor] only applies during the COVID-19 health emergency”. That’s not exactly what the law considers ‘moot.’”

Let’s start at the beginning: By default, it is illegal to send or receive RU486 in the mail. A federal district court suspended that policy for the duration of the pandemic. The Trump administration wanted to block that decision, and the dispute ended up in front of the Supreme Court. The January decision that you keep referencing granted the Trump administration’s request for a stay of the district court’s ruling.

That decision concerns only the federal district court’s order, and it is moot now because the new administration appointed a new Acting Commissioner of the FDA who changed the policy herself. The stay is irrelevant because the policy is now coming from the FDA itself rather than a district court’s order.

“And your point about US prescription requirements for Misoprostol is inaccurate, since the sources I referenced in my other post are online pharmacies.”

But this doesn’t change anything. I never said that you can’t get it online. I said that a US resident cannot get it legally online. It is still illegal to receive misoprostol via the mail in the US if you do not have a prescription (the same way that it is illegal in Massachusetts to receive nunchaku in the mail even though you can definitely get people to ship them to you anyway).

“Anyone buying approved medications from those providers for their own use is allowed up to a 3 month supply under the FDA’s ‘personal importation’ policy.”

That is not what that policy says. First of all, it is a policy concerning drugs that FDA has not approved (whereas misoprostol is FDA approved). Second, the list describing the policy is not disjunctive. That is, you don’t have to meet just one of the conditions. You have to meet all of them. Misoprostol does not meet that standard. So again: I am not denying (and have not denied) that it is possible to get the drug online without a prescription; what I have said is that it is illegal in the US to do so (and nothing in the FDA policy you linked contradicts that).

“And as far as what Good Old Joe does or doesn’t do to help… you’re too kind. Really, too kind.”

I haven’t said one word on this thread—whether kind or unkind—about Joe Biden or what he has, hasn’t, will, or won’t do to help. All I said was that presidents cannot directly change FDA policy. It is the current Acting Commissioner of the FDA who changed the rules regarding sending and receiving RU486 through the mail during the pandemic, and that is the only person to whom I have attributed any sort of helpful action (temporary and insufficient as it may be).

Honestly, it seems like you are the one who has misunderstood “some of what you read and a few things people are saying.”

@SnipSnip “The question has to do with getting the pills and sending them to someone in another state, such as Texas. It is illegal.”

First of all, it is not currently illegal due to change in FDA policy during the pandemic. It used to be illegal, and it will be illegal again in the future unless the policy change is made permanent.

Second, this has nothing to do with the statements to which I was responding. You said: “You could be liable for any harm that the recipient endures because of the medication.” This is false. You also said: “A doctor has to be involved.” Again, a doctor has to be involved somewhere along the line to get a prescription, but they do not have to be present for the actual abortion.

@SavoirFaire – I can tell you enjoy a good argument, even when there really isn’t one.

Almost everyone responding to this question has said in one way or another that this law is confusing, unfair, and probably harmful to women who need access to safe methods to end their pregnancies. And at worst it’s a dangerous government intrusion into privacy and personal freedom.

I believe filmfann asked this question because he was sympathetic to the people targeted for punishment under this statute, and he was looking for something that could help. I feel the same way. I think you do too – but if I’m wrong I’m sure you’ll let me know.

My point is, the debate that’s playing out here between you and I is silly and it makes both of us look stupid. I understand that like others who’ve offered answers here, you want suggest that there might be some way for women to avoid this political tar pit and still have control over their own bodies. So do I. Medically approved drugs, legally obtained and self-administered by fully informed women in the privacy of their own homes might be a way to do that. But we’re talking about two entirely different medications, regulated differently, and with different physical effects. Some of the criticisms you seem to be making don’t actually apply.

But I’m not taking this any further. I think anyone actually trying to live with this law deserves clear and accurate information. Petty bickering between us won’t deliver that.

If you have any other comments regarding anything I’ve posted here please PM me.