Is the new Texas abortion law six weeks from conception?

I haven’t read this article but it has specifics:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/health/texas-abortion-law-facts.html

Thank you! I had tried to Google and wasn’t coming up with anything.

@JLeslie They talk about when a heartbeat is first detected, which is probably different for different women.

Yes.

It would amount to an outright ban on abortions, as the six-week cutoff is two weeks after a missed menstrual cycle, opponents say.

Remember, this was first called the ‘Heartbeat Bill”.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/18/texas-heartbeat-bill-abortions-law/

Do you think the elderly men who wrote this law have any idea what any of those words mean.

@Lightlyseared Not only do I think most men have no idea, I think a lot of women have no idea also, especially young women who have never been pregnant before.

Every TV cable news station I’ve watched talking about this has not defined the 6 weeks, like there is only one way to define it. I don’t watch a ton of news lately, maybe I missed it.

@kritiper Yes what?

The Texas staute, SB 8, has limited language referencing an actual number of term days when restricting access to abortion.

It’s focused almost completely on the detection of a “fetal heartbeat”, which can occur at any time from 5 to 6 weeks.

@JLoon You did it too. You mention the weeks without definition. That is being done all over the news.

@JLeslie – I’m not sure what you mean.

You asked “Is the new Texas abortion law six weeks from conception?”

It’s not. It’s based on “fetal heartbeat” : https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/87R/billtext/html/SB00008F.htm

@JLoon Yes, I understand your point, my point is 6 weeks keeps getting stated as about the time there is a heartbeat, and then not defining 6 weeks. My mom who has birthed two babies assumed that the 6 weeks they kept referring to was 6 weeks from conception, which was incorrect according to the NYT’s article.

@JLeslie – Okay I see. But one of the reasons many medical professionals have criticized this law is that it’s terms don’t really address fetal viability in any way that makes sense.

Under SB 8 it’s all about a “heartbeat”, even though most clinics even with the best equipment can’t even get an image an emdryonic heart unitl at least 12 weeks.

So in terms of this crazy law the date/time of conception is irrelevant.

@JLoon That makes it even worse that supposed journalists keep using 6 weeks.

Viability has nothing to do with anything in this case in my opinion. A 6,8,10,20 week fetus is not viable.

I think they can detect the sound of a “heartbeat” around 4 weeks after conception. It’s more like a pulse, not a 4 chamber human heart.

@JLeslie: Those details about the heartbeat are in the NY Times Q&A article.

@jca2 Yes, I thanked you for it above, it was a good article. It explained it.

@Lightlyseared “Do you think the elderly men who wrote this law have any idea what any of those words mean?’ I don’t think they have any ideas about anything, other than pandering to the Right, and to Christian Conservatives.

Geez, @JLeslie, I thought your question meant “Is there still time to abort the Texas law?”

@JLeslie Yes as in Yes the six week period starts at conception. When else would it start???

@kritiper You’re making my point. It doesn’t. It starts two week before conception.

It’s a complicated number that most people think is straightforward – thank you for bringing it to more people’s attention. I incorrectly assumed, myself. This is even worse than I thought.

It really doesn’t matter which it is because whichever it is, no woman can schedule an abortion in that time frame. And there is no fetal heartbeat at that time.

@janbb Plenty of women abort that early, but it is definitely too restrictive and unreasonable.

They take RU486 to abort that early.

@JLeslie Does it matter? At six weeks most women don’t know that they are pregnant. Two weeks before may be a unimportant specifically technical point in terms issue.

No abortion once a heartbeat is detected.

@kritiper Yes, it matters. Most women do know when they are six weeks pregnant (from their last period). Most women know in the 5th-7th week, so an extra two weeks would matter a lot. I say most women do know they are pregnant at six weeks, but it is also true a significant amount of women don’t.

Poor women would probably wait to do a test, because the test is not free. Also, people who don’t want to be pregnant might be in denial and wait. Women are constantly told stress can make you late, change in diet, etc., so they wait to find out they are pregnant. The most common reason for a missed period is pregnancy. Pregnancy is the horse, the other reasons are zebras if you know that analogy. A late period often is an early miscarriage.

There are women who simply have irregular cycles and don’t know if or when a period will come.

I’m completely against this law, but I think some of what is being said will backfire (as usual) on Democrats. If they just stick to the truth it is sufficient. The law is unreasonable and in my opinion UnAmerican. We have had neighbors reporting on neighbors in our history (Salem witch trials) but we look back at that as a horrible time in history.

There are also women who are drug addicts or mentally ill, who may not be keeping track of their periods because they’re distracted by their issues. Ironically these women are now going to be having babies, whereas maybe in the past they would have discovered they were pregnant and had an abortion. That’s why I keep hoping the state of Texas has increased its social services budget, because these babies are going to need all kinds of help, support and resources, including foster care.

@jca2 Great point.

@jca2 I completely agree with you, but don’t take any bets on that. Maybe I am way to cynical, but I have said before, the repubs wont give a rats butt about a baby once it enters the world. Social services? Are you kidding? This is nothing more than a ploy to score points with the Right, and their precious little fetus is nothing but a means to a political end. I firmly believe that. And the Dems are about as useless as tits on a boar hog. I hate to say it but it’s true. Social services for pregnant women and single moms are next to non existent in this state. Except maybe in Austin.

@Nomore_lockout: I know, just being rhetorical. I’m betting they don’t care and have no clue. Regardless, the caseworkers in Child Protective are going to be busier and the judges in Family Court are going to be busier. What happens after that is anyone’s guess lol.

Yuppers. And meanwhile, the Dems we elected sit on their ass, talk a big show, and do exactly zilch. Both Texas and Congressional Dems.

@Nomore_lockout Some even voted for it.

Ryan Guillen, D-Rio Grande City
Eddie Lucio Jr., D-Brownsville

Sen. Brandon Creighton, R-Conroe, was absent from the Senate vote. Reps. Garnet Coleman, D-Houston, and Abel Herrero, D-Robstown, were absent from the House vote.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/state/2021/09/03/texas-abortion-law-heres-how-lawmakers-voted-heartbeat-bill-legislature/5706081001/

What really matters is when there is a detectable heartbeat. Two weeks before conception won’t matter to that.
Like I said before, it’s technical. Technical in definition, technical in fact.

Here’s some clarity on the issue:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/politics/abbott-abortion-fact-check/index.html

As an irrelevant aside, I always thought dating a pregnancy from the last period was totally weird anyway.

Abortion was totally banned in Texas being that abortion clinics have closed down because Abbott gave citizens the right to sue anyone working in an abortion clinic where abortions are being done. So even if the woman gets an abortion before he 6 weeks anyone, and I mean anyone can be sued. It doesn’t state that the lawsuit has to be for abortion over 6 weeks. So clinics are shutting down because each abortion will cost them 10,000 dollars. So technically he made it illegal even though the Supreme Courts is trying to pretend that this law isn’t doing that. It’s even illegal now to get an abortion if the fetus isn’t viable or the woman can’t carry it to term because it would kill her. The woman would have to carry that fetus until she miscarries or dies. So if she has a baby in the fallopian tubes she cannot get an abortion.

@Pandora Scary.

Some clarification. You don’t need an abortion clinic to end pregnancies, doctors prescribe pills and many are done in hospitals not clinics when it’s a later pregnancy (if you have a secular hospital around) but don’t get me wrong, the law and what is happening is extremely concerning to me. It’s just another reason I feel I need to research what country can I go to if I need to leave, and I don’t mean for an abortion.

I think abortions before 6 weeks are usually done with drugs like RU486.

Early ectopic pregnancies are treated with methotrexate not surgery, but of course sometimes women do need surgery and ectopic pregnancies usually become life threatening if they don’t miscarry on their own or terminate with the methotrexate and fully clear.

Does the law exclude terminating a pregnancy if the life of the mother is in danger?

Young people need to get out and vote. Democrats should be telling stories of women who needed to terminate for health or their baby was malformed and they wanted to not have to go to term. My feeling is a lot of pro-lifers are completely clueless about everything that can go wrong in pregnancy. Pro-choice keeps all abortions safer, even the ones where the pro-life mother wanted to get pregnant, wants to have a baby, and needs an abortion.

@JLeslie: Cut and pasted from the NY Times article I linked above (re: your asking whether the law makes exception if the life of the mother is in danger):

The law does not make exceptions for rape or incest. It does permit abortions for health reasons, but the exceptions are narrowly drawn, allowing a termination only if the pregnancy could endanger the mother’s life or lead to “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function,” Ms. Nash noted.

“These are very narrow exceptions,” she said, and the language does not cover every instance in which a woman’s health might be at risk. Nonetheless, she added, “Health providers will be very conservative about interpreting the law, because they don’t want to cross a line.”

please note that I am in no way, shape or form defending the law. It’s a terrible law for women, in my opinion.

@jca2 Thanks. Even in liberal NYC women who need abortions for health reasons are transferred from Catholic hospitals to secular or Jewish hospitals. Women and men need a dose of reality with what can go wrong in pregnancy.

@jleslie Apparently I am mistaken and it does protect that but since abortion clinics have shuttered their doors then it’s not an option in Texas. They would have to go out of state and abortion clinics do offer women’s health care for those who can’t afford prenatal care. So for poor women who can’t afford to go to the hospital for care may not realize they have an ectopic pregnancy until it’s too late. So this law will still cause deaths.

@Pandora I am not clear what you are specifically referring to in your last answer, so just understand I am not being argumentative, just clarifying. I am with you about being very upset about this law, and it greatly concerns me that women may not have access to services, and basically be trapped in their own bodies when they have a life threatening situation.

Abortion clinics would not take care of a surgical procedure for an ectopic pregnancy. That is done in a hospital. As I mentioned earlier, a very early ectopic is just a shot of methotrexate, which can be done at the doctor’s office, a later ectopic or if the tube explodes (life threatening emergency) is done as a surgery in a hospital.

Putting aside ectopic pregnancies, take for instance my sister used to work at one of the hospitals in NYC, I cannot remember which, and they had a day of the week that was abortion day, like every Tuesday was abortion day, something like that. People seem to not realize that abortions are done other places besides Planned Parenthood. It’s kind of good it goes under the radar of the pro-lifers actually, so we don’t deal with them picketing at a hospital. Not all hospitals do it, obviously Catholic hospitals don’t as one example.

@JLeslie Abortions are not as available in southern states as you claim. Our southern physicians (including Ob/Gyn) are NOT TAUGHT how to perform abortions during medical school or residency. Outpatient obstetric offices and clinics generally do NOT prescribe abortion pills. That is why Planned Parenthood is so essential.

I also used to live in NY… totally different system than FL. You cannot get an abortion in a hospital in FL. Ectopic pregnancy is a different issue – it is trained as a medical procedure.

@Cupcake It doesn’t surprise me that abortion is harder to find in the South, I’ve mentioned before that when I lived in Memphis the two hospitals in the area were St. Francis and Baptist, which I would be fairly sure that means no elective abortions of any kind are done at either. This has been a fear of women for many years. The pro-life movement has been hacking away at Planned Parenthood for years. How many locations were doing surgical abortions before this law in the huge state of Texas? I bet not many. A few is better than none though. The regular Planned Parenthood locations and health clinics in the state can still prescribe medical abortions, they just stopped performing surgical ones I guess.

My point is this new law (which again I think is horrific) regarding abortion clinics being open or closed doesn’t affect being able to get a “legal” abortion in the state of Texas much, because of the “6 week” mark. Drug induced abortion like RU486 is still legal, which any doctor can prescribe. Any doctor willing to anyway, which probably is also harder to come by in the South as you pointed out. I think you can use it up to 11 weeks? It becomes more problematic in the 9,10,11th week from what I understand, more likely to fail.

I predict a black market for RU486 if there is not one already. Luckily, covid has made video doctoring across state lines commonplace now.

Ectopic, as you have said, is either a drug or a trained medical procedure. Any doctor who would not treat an ectopic pregnancy I feel deserves to have his license removed.

Although @Pandora makes a valid point to be concerned about poor women, because they might wait longer to get diagnosed with a pregnancy and especially an ectopic, which is dangerous of course. Poor women can buy a drug store pregnancy test of course, but that costs money too.

I think bias media sources are purposely not specifying medical vs surgical abortion to make abortion sound not available at all, and I am always worried about that sort of thing backfiring. If we are completely thorough with the reporting on what this law means it is already horrific on it’s own without being vague. I am not accusing you of being vague, I don’t think that at all, I am only talking about social media and some left wing news sources, etc.

@JLeslie I hear you, and I think we are probably pretty much on the same page. Moving to the South, it was SHOCKING to me how difficult it was to get an abortion. I previously worked in a hospital where nurses could have one patient getting an abortion at 23 weeks and another women in the next bed giving birth at 23 weeks. (Note: very rare and because of incompatibility of life issues, not just a “I don’t feel like being pregnant” that late in the pregnancy). Anyway, it is a whole other ballgame in the South.

I think we’re also not addressing the extreme amounts of health literacy, ability to navigate complex systems, and self-advocacy that is required. When you add in expense/money, abortions really are impossible to access for many.

I’ll add, especially in the South, I’ll bet doctors willing to prescribe abortion pills are so few and far between it is pretty irrelevant.

There are other laws in the South that make abortion more difficult, such as mandatory ultrasounds and certain phrases that physicians must tell patients that are factually incorrect, such as you will be at greater risk of death, infertility and gynecological problems if you have an abortion, which is untrue when you compare it to the risks associated with childbirth (the other outcome if you don’t have an abortion).

@Cupcake Yeah, it was already difficult even prior to this law. They just keep chipping away any way that they can.

The FAQ regarding the new Texas law is interesting on this site https://needabortion.org/. I hope you will look it over to tell me what you think. I got this link from the Planned Parenthood Website. Locations are still open in TX for Planned Parenthood. Here is the original PP website I got the link from https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-greater-texas/senate-bill-8.

Did you see the cost? Starts at $450, plus $100—$150 for ultrasound. Outrageous. When I shadowed abortion day in FL several years ago, I thought they were around $250, but could be mistaken.

They also require you to take the abortion pills in the clinic on two separate visits.

@Cupcake I had no idea you have to take the pills in the clinic. Is that all states?

$450 for the RU 486 abortion?

An ultrasound at 4–5 weeks? I don’t even think it’s easily detectable. It’s mini small.

There were 788 abortion clinics in the entire US at last count in 2014.

Here with one clinic in St Louis, the pill is $700. Only can be used up to 10 weeks.
$850–1200 for aspiration or vacuum abortion. Up to 22 weeks or due to health of the mother, longer.

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-many-abortion-clinics-are-in-america-each-state-2017-2

@JLeslie: I googled it and the RU 486 is taken in the doctor’s office:

https://www.womenscenter.com/2019/10/how-does-the-ru-486-pill-work/#:~:text=RU%20486%20works%20by%20stopping%20the%20growth%20of,Dr%20James%20S%20Pendergraft%20Orlando%20Abortion%20Clinic%2C%20www.womencenter.com.

Wow, what a racket. I wonder how much profit margin is being made on that pill. I thought a generic was approved. You would think the price would have come down. Or, it can just mean more than one company is making a fortune.

It’s administered at the office, but it’s not like the woman stays there for the process to complete.

@jca2 Your page didn’t open for me, but I looked at another on the topic.

@JLeslie Red states want it to be expensive as another deterrent.

@JLeslie In FL you take one pill in the abortion clinic and one at home. There are clear instructions on what symptoms/conditions to expect and what to return or go to an emergency department for.

FL is the only state where I have attended abortions in-person, so I can’t speak to other states.

The $450 is for the in-office “surgical” procedure. Ultrasounds are required in southern states to try to manipulate pregnant patients.

@KNOWITALL Yes – and also don’t allow any state money to fund abortions, unlike blue states.

I realize the ultrasound is to manipulate women. If it’s 11 weeks you see more than a dot, it’s starting to take some shape, but 5 weeks I’m not sure they will detect anything.

@JLeslie: Sorry – I just checked the link and it doesn’t work for me either.

I googled “how does RU 486 work?”

This is a different link that also talks about details:
https://www.verywellhealth.com/ru486-the-abortion-pill-906956

Here’s a link from a NYC place with prices:

https://soundviewpregnancy.com/how-much-do-abortions-cost/#:~:text=Commonly%20referred%20to%20as%20the%20abortion%20pill%2C%20Mifiprex%2C,Pregnancy%3A%20Five%20to%20ten%20weeks%20into%20pregnancy.%202.

@JLeslie, @jca2, @Cupcake, @KNOWITALL – It looks like at least some of what you seem to be searching for is stuff that I researched & posted in another question/thread 3 days ago:
https://i.fluther.com/228204/whats-the-best-way-to-respond-to-the-new-texas-abortion/

However keep in mind that info & the links to sources was for MISOPROSTOL, which is also used to end pregnancies, but is less expensive & more available that RU486 and can be purchased and delivered through online pharmacies.

@KNOWITALL Yes, but isn’t labor and delivery and children way more expensive? Maybe they hope women will avoid pregnancy if abortions are expensive, but I don’t think that method works well.

@JLeslie Probably.