Does prayer make sense?

To the faithful, by all means yes.

Part of the problem with the assumptions made in the question is that it doesn’t truly understand what prayer is all about.

Prayer is not supposed to be like making wishes. You don’t ask God for goods or services and wait for Him to provide. Prayer is a way of establishing a relationship with God. It is the time we interact with Him. Prayer is a way of calming your mind and your spirit to focus on that relationship.

The question also makes the assumption that when you pray for something, if God gives you what you want it makes him fallible . Christians refer to him as “our Father” and tend to have that sort of relationship with Him. Think about it this way. You are planning on taking your kids to see the Grand Canyon. You are going to drive. And while you are driving, one of the kids says “Can we stop and get something to eat?” You already knew that at some point you were going to stop (probably several times) to eat. So you say okay and find somewhere to eat. In this comparison, you are God and the kids are the Christians. You have a plan for them. You are guiding them through that plan. Yet they ask you for something. They can ask because they have a relationship with you. Stopping to eat doesn’t change your plan, since you already knew you would stop at some point and it doesn’t change the final destination. And when and where you stop are still up to you.

There is the saying that came from William Cowpens, “God works in mysterious ways”. This is sort of like the statement from the Bible in Isaiah (I believe) where God says “my thoughts are not your thoughts. Nor are your ways, my ways.” SOMETIMES when someone really wants something and they pray really hard, they don’t get it. But that doesn’t mean God didn’t hear and couldn’t grant that prayer (wish). It means He has a plan for you and your plans aren’t aligned with His. But just like a good father, He doesn’t want bad things for you. He wants good things for you and will take care of you if you trust in Him.

In my understanding, one prays to connect to something larger than themselves, not necessarily for a specific action on the part of a Higher Being. It can avert a feeling of despair or aloneness or convey a wish for another or the whole of humanity. It’s not necessarily for me but I’ve learned not to disparage those who find it meaningful.

To the people that believe, it does.
To the people that don’t, it does not.

I think prayer is kind of like a form of meditation for the one doing the praying. It’s a spiritual act designed to clear the mind.

@seawulf575 i get what you are saying, but then where does prayer like this:

- pray for rain
– pray for the recovery of a sick person in the hospital
– pray to win the lottery
– pray for peace

come in?

Each of those is a directed prayer for a specific outcome, not a general way of having a relationship with god.

Are those people praying wrong?

I understand what you wrote is the theoretical, ideal definition of prayer, but that doesn’t seem how people are using it.

@elbanditoroso “Does prayer make sense?”

“A hasty explanation can suppose that to pray is a futile act because a person’s prayer does not, of course, change the changeless; but in the long run would this be desirable, could not the changing person easily come to repent that he had managed to get God changed! Thus the true explanation is also the one and only to be desired: the prayer does not change God, but it changes the one who prays.”
—Søren Kierkegaard, Edifying Discourses in Diverse Spirits

@elbanditoroso “Are those people praying wrong?”

“In those old days it was different. For then faith was a task for a whole lifetime, not a skill thought to be acquired in either days or weeks.”
—Søren Kierkegaard, Fear and Trembling

It really depends on what spiritual tradition, what Religion (if any), and what mindset the person praying has. Even within Christianity, there are countless varieties of spiritual tradition, religious doctrine, and countless varieties of mindsets for prayer.

And yes, some mindsets are not very logical, even for a Biblical literalist, and yet you see opponents in sports competitions or war praying for victory or even for failure, catastrophe, and/or death for their opponents (who are often also Christians).

Though in some mindsets and religious philosophies, even that’s not necessarily illogical. For example, if you read some Arthurian stories, you’ll find themes of striving to be the most approved by God (which would include prayer, but definitely more along the lines @seawulf575 suggested, to meditate, develop one’s “relationship” with God, and humbly questing to understand and best embody God’s will) . . . but then in Arthurian legend, God often offers up the goods, too, in forms such as express-mailing some magic weapons and armor down the river to you, having questing castles appear to you, and choosing who wins in combat, and who gets a spear through their visor. That fit (at least some) popular Medieval Christian doctrine, and was a basis for trial by combat making sense.

@elbanditoroso That is an important point as that is how prayer is often used and portrayed. If someone prays for the recovery a sick person and they recover, they attribute that recovery to the efficacy of prayer, i.e. the person recovered because they and others prayed for it and God answered their prayers. If the person does not recover, then they simply attribute it to God’s will. They did what they could (prayer) but God had other plans. But if you believe in God’s will, then prayer was never going to change it. Whether the sick person recovers or doesn’t is already ordained by God. Sometimes when people don’t get what they ask for, they claim God “didn’t answer their prayers”, but one could say that God did answer their prayers, he just said “no”. In that sense, prayer isn’t asking God to change his will, it’s asking God to reveal his will. And I think one could already surmise other reasons someone with a sick loved one in the hospital might be praying.

If it makes one feel better, then yes. But that’s all it can do.

For me, prayer is thanking God, turning over my worries, asking for forgiveness-always, as we are all imperfect.
As far as asking for things or praying for my sick friends or family, it’s more like, if this is the time you want them, please help them go peacefully, and calm my spirit to accept your will.

Doctors have said ‘it’s a miracle’ too many times to discount the power of our beliefs in prayer.

Personally I think it’s presumptuous to assume prayer is worthless and millions of people practicing it for centuries are all just wasting time.

We pray that the world might be made a little better and that does make sense.

When I was a little kid, I wanted a bicycle so bad I could taste it. So I prayed for god to give me a bike. As I grew older, I leaned that God didn’t work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.

@KNOWITALL But if prayer does affect an outcome, is that because God has changed his will? That’s the part I get tripped up on.

When researchers study the efficacy of intercessory prayer, it consistently has no effect on the outcome. So either we can argue special pleading and say that perhaps God knows he/she/whatever is being tested and so only interferes when not being tested empirically, or we have to acknowledge that praying for someone doesn’t change the outcome of their circumstance and is really just a spiritual act of love/kindness/etc. And there’s nothing wrong with people engaging in spiritual acts of that nature! In fact, I think it’s probably a very healthy activity to engage in (so long as they don’t engage in irrational/dangerous activities based on false belief that God will intercede and protect them).

GQ. And I can only repeat what others have said. It makes people feel better.
He’ll, I’m not even a believer anymore, but occasionally I still pray. It just calms me down.

The OP shows no understanding of prayer or worship. For people of Faith prayer is part of life. It is worship.

I meditate pretty much daily. It’s not the same as prayer but it’s along the same vein. I don’t meditate “for” anything though. Just to center my mind.

@SnipSnip – that’s a bit strong. I don’t have a good concept of Christian worship and theology, because I am not christian. There are some of us who are not, you know.

@SnipSnip
You seem to be very confident to state that “prayer is part of life” for people of faith.
And that “it is worship”

@Caravanfan to me, meditation is far different from prayer. Meditation is internally directed. Prayer is not.

@snip…the OP was trying to make something logical out of something that is illogical.

Frankly, I have never understood the requirement that an omnipotent God should require either adoration or worship from mere mortals incapable of explaining His motives, desires, origins, or being. Of course if He is omnipotent, then He by definition must hear our prayers, but so what? What has our begging thus far achieved?

I’m right with you that if God is all knowing we shouldn’t have to pray or ask for his help. I also think that any God that requires this constant display of worship doesn’t sound very godly to me, but rather power hungry and controlling. My view of a God is that He would try try to give good guidance and would simply desire actions of good behavior and in turn be pleased His teachings led his children to a good life.

I just saw a Holocaust rememberance show last night, and it’s shocking to me anyone can believe in God after seeing what was done. Sorry, I should never watch those shows. Where was God for the Jewish people, the Gypsies, the people who tried to protect us and were caught, the disabled? They told a story of the Nazis putting a small town of people (a town of Christians) in a church and setting it and the people inside on fire for protecting Jewish children. If there was a God how can that happen? Sometimes I “pray” the Christians are right and those people burn in hell.

But, I’m an atheist, so who cares what I think.

Prayer has some positives. I think for some people it’s a time that they calm down and focus on being grateful and thinking about others, and putting thought into goals. That’s all good. I guess prayer is different for everyone.

I used to compare prayer to meditation, it has some similarities, but I recently attended a presentation snout Buddhism, and the presenter had research about meditation and the health benefits, and prayer did not stack up as well. Meditations had added components like focus on breathing and some other things that proved to be more beneficial.

@Demosthenes Yes, I believe in the power of prayer to create change.

Some prayers make sense in certain situations.

Considering the suffering, struggle and misery which has defined the human condition since the onset of humanity, the only possible justification for a merciful and loving God would be if our time on this planet is of relative insignificance. In other words, our lives here cannot possibly be the main event to our existence if God is worthy of US!

@elbanditoroso People do pray for things like that every day. And if you notice, sometimes they are “granted” and other times they aren’t. As I get older and more understanding (I think!) of how to have a relationship with God, I find a lot of things that go into it.

Let’s start with the people that are praying. Do they have a relationship with God? Or do they only have something to do with Him when they want something? MANY people that claim to be Christians aren’t truly focused on God and His will. I’m one of them. I’m trying to correct that, but it is difficult. My ego keeps wanting to get in the way.

Then take a look at what is being asked of Him. Take any of those examples you gave and you can ask the question “Is this in His plan for me?” and “Do I need to learn something from this condition?” Sometimes it is adversity that we need to grow and learn. Needing money or losing a loved on can be learning tools too. I know it sounds odd. But we all die. Everyone you love will, one day, die. Maybe you need to learn to deal with loss. By healing a loved one, you may not get the understanding you need and God may need you to have that understanding somewhere in the future.

A couple years ago, I lost my job. I did (thankfully) get a severance package so I had income and healthcare for a brief period. I was 58 and knew I would hit age discrimination. But I truly believed God would provide for us. So I prayed to Him. I didn’t ask for a job. I didn’t ask to win the lottery. I prayed to Him that I had faith in Him and that I knew he would watch after us. I was out of work for about 3 months. I applied to many, many jobs and got a couple interviews. But as I figured I was getting overlooked because of my age. Then I got a call from a company I had applied at more than a month before. They asked me to come in for an interview. It was with a company that delivered beer and wine and it was for the delivery person. They took a chance on me. I worked hard and did a good job even though it was physically demanding. In the space now of about 2.5 years, I have gotten 3 promotions and am now making close to what I was making when I was laid off. But I truly believe this is where God wanted me to be. It was a young man’s job, but the company took a chance on an old guy. It gave me rapid advancement and there is still room to advance. He provided me this opportunity and I pray Thanks to him regularly.

Back to the parenting analogy: If you have children, they will ask you for all sorts of things. If you are a GOOD parent, you won’t give them everything they want without making them understand the worth of it. Same thing with how God deals with us.

Prayer makes sense, and He does listen to our prayers. He does. He does. He does.

It’s one thing to listen. Your dog will do that. I would listen too. But He apparently doesn’t speak to me. Now there are PLENTY of charlatans and scam artists prepared to speak for or claim that He speaks through them, but in the end what is His purpose for us? I mean even if we are merely His pets, there should be some semblance of interaction between Him and us.

@elbanditoroso Alrighty, then I don’t pray.

I was told that Orthodox Jews only give prayers of praise and thanks to God, and do not ask for favors.

Can’t say, beyond my kin. I don’t believe in it myself, but as people have said above, if it
makes some folks feel better let them have at it. Not taking any skin off my butt. People have been into invoking deities for eons and will continue to do so. My approval or lack there of won’t make an iota of difference anyway.

@HP You should look up an old thread -‘How has God proved His existence in your life?’ It’s interesting.

For some, praying for guidance helps.

I think that prayer might be the nervous system giving a status update.

If there is a God and if he sometimes performs miracles, maybe he resents being told what to do, and is less likely to perform an act if it is prayed for.

^^God can be resentful? I would hope a God would not have such emotions.

Can you explain why He didn’t help those enslaved tortured and slaughtered in the Holocaust or the Pogroms, or during the enslavement of Black people in America and other countries? Did they do something to deserve such treatment in God’s eyes that He did not interfere with a great miracle? What about the Irish who were starving during the potato famine or the Africans who continue to starve?

It’s kind of off topic from prayer, but many of these people were completely innocent, even children, and their parents in many of these situations were praying people, and even whole communities and practically whole countries were probably praying not only for those targeted, but also to be spared Nazi invasion or Russian takeover, etc.

Prayer for oneself I can wrap my head around, but prayer in hoping God will create a miracle is much harder for me. I do believe in “miracles.” I do believe things happen outside of our current understanding of science and how nature works, or that we get lucky with perfect intersections of preparedness, need, and opportunity.

It’s easist to address this question by assuming there isnt a god. At any rate, absolutely no one is getting feedback from a god or creating a relationship with him through prayer. Relgion is a texture you can apply to life that smooths the edges and makes the whole project of life a little smoother, but talking at someone isn’t a relationship.

Prayer is useful because it is reflective. A person takes the time to consider what is important to them, and tries to articulate it. Or they put form to their fears or pour out their pain. Its basically the same as having a nonjudgemental person to just listen, even if they never help. Prayer is a kind of one sided talk therapy that really kinda works, if you can make yourself believe in it, which is really the stickiest wicket.

I definitely believe in the power of prayer even when sometimes the answer to my prayer is no.

I consider myself a Christian and I do everything I can to help other although I am not a Churchgoer

Whenever I pray I pray for other but not for myself.
.

@JLeslie – I would agree with your points except there is a catch all in that God doesn’t interfere with ‘Free Will’. If people want to abuse other people, whose free will should God thwart? It seems in those situations, God merely stays out of it. Or maybe God did intercede by sending in the Allies to destroy the Nazis. Sure it took a few years but God’s concept time may be quite different than ours. Afterall we have a life span of 70 years while God is forever.

Honestly, I’m just spitballing here because I’m more likely to believe in Erich von Däniken’s theory than I am the Catholic Church’s version.

@JLeslie , If God can get angry then why not resentful? Here is a link to anger related verses found courtesy of the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible.

Jesus got angry.

I feel like if it makes you feel better to do it, it’s comforting, it’s not illegal and it doesn’t hurt anyone, then do it. I’m not very religious and I don’t pray very often, but if I want to, then it’s really my business and nobody else’s. If someone prays and they’re looking for something or answers to a problem, let them do it if they feel it’s helpful.

I’m agnostic but agreed @jca2. I have always thought this world would be a better place if we would just tend out own business and keep out nose out of other people’s affairs. Whether religious or secular.

If people want to express their love of God through prayer, that’s fine, but if they ask favors of God then they are acting nonsensically. God knows everyone’s needs and there is nothing that anyone can say that will change his mind.

Well if I had a very sick child in the hospital I’d be asking favors like a banshee.

@Jaxk I understand your reasoning, but it just seems convenient. I realize you are just providing a way to think about it, but necessarily your beliefs.

@LostInParadise I guess so, although resentment is somehow in a different category to me.

I think religion, God, and prayer are all a personal matter, and I’ve never had any problem with people who believe or pray. I think if it helps someone and doesn’t hurt anyone, then that’s all fine with me. I would never want to disparage or try to take prayer away from someone.

My comments were not to dismiss the beliefs of others, it was to explain why it’s so hard for me. I can see the benefit of believing there is a God that is always with you and loves you.

@elbanditoroso People do pray for things, but it’s more in line with Hope. It is human nature to hope that things will work out for us or for those we love. Like when we asked our parents if we could eat dessert before dinner. We did so in the hope they would say sure, but we knew no would be the answer. So when people pray (hopefully to connect with God) they may make requests.
We hope in our hour of need he will feel compassion for our plea the way a parent may feel compassion for their child when they are hurting.

There is what prayer should be, a way to connect, but our human selves can’t help but ask for help when we feel lost and desperate.

I imagine to a God, human lives are very small. A blink of an eye. But souls are eternal, so I think God wouldn’t be too concerned over our physical life.

Phillipians 4:6–7 along with many other verses tell us it’s okay. We didn’t make the rules, Moses and many other’s asked God for help throughout the entire text.

Muslims are instructed that ‘God listens to those who praise Him.” It’s not just a Christian concept at all.

@KNOWITALL that’s an interesting comment about Muslims.

It implies that (a) god is vain, (b) can be bribed, and© prayer is essentially transactional.

@elbanditoroso Do you know how Jews are supposed to view prayer, or what we are told about why we should pray? I ask because I have no idea.

@JLeslie the way I was taught, it was about community (that’s why you have minyans of 10 men for prayer every morning) and faith, building a relationship with god.

There’s a lot in common with the Muslim view (no surprise!) in the sense that the more your pray (or so the belief is) the more likely god hears you.

Remember that the Kaddish (mourner’s prayer) is NOT about death or loss – it is a half dozen paragraphs of prayer extolling god and saying how wonderful he is.

@elbanditoroso Do the Jews care where you pray? Is there an importance about praying in a temple? I figure with all of the times in history where we couldn’t enter our temples that maybe it isn’t very important. Although, we certainly celebrate being able to enter the temples after it being forbidden. I think about getting married, and no rules for having to be in a house of worship. What choice did we have?

You might have seen the following quote from Einstein about God and prayer, he would quote Spinoza:

“…Baruch de Spinoza was a Dutch philosopher considered one of the three great rationalists of 17th-century philosophy, along with René Descartes in France, and Gottfried Leibniz in Germany.

Here’s some of his wisdom:
God would have said:
Stop praying and punching yourself in the chest!

What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to enjoy, sing, have fun and enjoy everything I’ve made for you.

Stop going to those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and say they are my house! My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That’s where I live and there I express my love for you.

Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing! Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don’t blame me for everything they made you believe.

Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can’t read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son’s eyes… you will find me in no book! Trust me and stop asking me. Would you tell me how to do my job?

Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or seek to punish you. I am pure love.

Stop asking for forgiveness, there’s nothing to forgive. If I made you… I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies… free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I’m the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of God would do that?

Forget any kind of commandments, any kind of laws; those are wiles to manipulate you, to control you, that only create guilt in you.
Respect your peers and don’t do what you don’t want for yourself. All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that your consciousness is your guide.

My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing that exists here and now, and it is all you need.
I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues… no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record.
You are absolutely free to create in your life heaven or hell.

I could tell you if there’s anything after this life, but I won’t… but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is nothing after… as if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist.

So, if there’s nothing, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won’t ask if you behaved right or wrong, I’ll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?...

Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don’t want you to believe in me… I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea.

Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am?

I’m bored being praised, I’m tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world. Express your joy!... that’s the way to praise me.

Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you’ve been taught about me.
The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, and that this world is full of wonders.

What do you need more miracles for? Why so many explanations?

Look for me outside… you won’t find me. Find me inside… there I am beating within you.”

Spinoza.

Some interesting lines from the Book of Matthew I found from the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible. Check out lines 5 through 8. We should not pray in public and should not keep repeating ourselves, since God already knows what we need.

Prayer is a way of establishing a relationship with God. We may ask, petition and inquire if something is on our minds, but we should really only pray for His will.

@JLeslie Orthodox Jews pray at home two or three times a day wearing tfillim and phylacteries.

@elbanditoroso Well some believe the more pious/faithful you are, the more pull you have with God. There are all kinds of thoughts on this subject.

@LostInParadise The teachings on those verses are Jesus telling us what prayer should and shouldn’t be. If you are merely standing out in front of everyone and praying aloud to make everyone notice you, you are putting on a show and God is not impressed. Prayer is a personal thing and should be approached as such.

The passage says specifically that you should secretly pray in a closet with the door shut. It is reasonable to interpret this as saying that you should not pray in public.

There are different kinds of prayer. Praying over meals, with other people, etc. The point in the passage you’re referring to @LostInParadise is if your purpose in prayer is to be noticed by other people, then you should pray in private instead.

Simply, Prayer means your wish or expectations.

and you believe in what you want in your life, anyhow the universe is ready to give you!