Are you offended by the term 'Karen' in reference to a certain type of person?
The term Karen is bandied about in order to, I guess, suppress and humiliate a type of person who is generally seen to be white, privileged and seemingly entitled.
If you look at YouTube, for example, there are tons of Karen videos and these are collections of white older females acting out, for want of a better word, in absurd type skits. They are often bedraggled, unkempt and overweight. The term is also used frequently in arguments. For example, someone might say “Stop being a Karen”. This could be online and the person might not be overweight, older or even female.
What do you think the male equivalent should be? Do you think there should be a male equivalent or not? Do you find this to be racist? Consider if we called all overweight, older people of colour, a certain name, how would that fly? Finally, do you know anyone called karen and how do they feel about this?
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No, but my real name is not Karen. I would think people named Karen are offended.
Karen are not white females, exclusively.
They can be all ages, all genders, all colors.
Male Karens are sometimes called Darren.
No, if that’s how poor behavior is called out now, so be it.
I have heard Kevin for males.
@CybertonSlapback: “If you look at YouTube, for example, there are tons of Karen videos and these are collections of white older females acting out, for want of a better word, in absurd type skits. They are often bedraggled, unkempt and overweight. The term is also used frequently in arguments. For example, someone might say “Stop being a Karen”. This could be online and the person might not be overweight, older or even female.”
Where are you getting this? First, it’s a term meant to refer to someone’s behavior. Second, if you were to attempt to find common physical attributes to a “Karen”, your description is most definitely not it.
@CybertonSlapback: “What do you think the male equivalent should be? Do you think there should be a male equivalent or not?”
Old debate and probably not a useful one. But I’ve always seen things like “Kevin”, “Ken”, or just “Karen”.
@CybertonSlapback: “Do you find this to be racist?”
“Karen” is often used to refer to someone who is racist. I don’t find the term racist in any way.
@CybertonSlapback: “Consider if we called all overweight, older people of colour, a certain name, how would that fly?”
Did you lose track of your topic? What are you talking about? What does that have to do with people being a “Karen”?
Are you upset that people are tiring of angry racist white conservatives who have complete meltdowns in public and try to get people fired? What is it precisely that you’re advocating for here? Seems that you might have started with something and lost track of what it was.
The issue with stereotypes is that occasionally they are true. The “karen” phenomenon is one of those times.
I laugh when I hear it, because I happen to think that the stereotype (maybe not the name) is totally accurate. But then, my name isn’t Karen.
My guess is that 90% of the time, Karenization is self-caused.
@product You’ve not heard of reverse racism? Or, general prejudice? No, I didn’t lose track of the topic. Perhaps you did, but thank you for your answer anyway, the more feedback the better.
Are you upset that people are tired* (sic) of angry racist white conservatives who have complete meltdowns in public and try to get people fired? What is it precisely that you’re advocating for here?
It would be great if you could point out exactly what I am advocating?
All kinds of people have meltdowns hence the question, should we give certain names to males and other people in the same situation? I’d think that it would be hard for “Karens’ whose names are Karen by birth. Also of course two wrongs do not make a right.
Here is the definition of Karen.
“Karen is a pejorative term for a white woman perceived as entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal. The term is often portrayed in memes depicting white women who use their privilege to demand their own way.[1][2] Depictions may include demanding to “speak to the manager”, being racist, or sporting a particular bob cut hairstyle.[3] A notable example was the Central Park birdwatching incident.
The term has been criticized as being ageist, sexist, racist, classist, misogynistic and seeking to control women’s behavior.[3] As of 2020, the term increasingly appeared in media and social media as a general-purpose criticism of middle class white women, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic and Black Lives Matter protests.[1] The term has also been applied to certain male behavior.[3][4] The Guardian ”
I haven’t actually put my thoughts on the topic forward yet.
@CybertonSlapback: “You’ve not heard of reverse racism?”
Yes, I’ve heard of this nonsensical word before.
@CybertonSlapback: “All kinds of people have meltdowns hence the question, should we give certain names to males and other people in the same situation?”
Go right ahead. Like I said, there already are names (and “Karen”) used for these people.
@CybertonSlapback: “Here is the a definition of Karen.”
^ I have corrected this.
@CybertonSlapback: “The term has been criticized as being ageist, sexist, racist, classist, misogynistic and seeking to control women’s behavior”
Are you making this claim, or are you using the passive voice “some people say” to make an assertion without having to…make an assertion? If this is just some person’s opinion from The Guardian, it is of little use unless you are here to persuade us that it is relevant.
@CybertonSlapback: “I haven’t actually put my thoughts on the topic forward yet.”
My bad. I guess I’m used to US-style conservativism (online and in the media) that raises an “issue” and just “asks questions” without really putting forward any real ideology.
Now that you have some responses, maybe you are now free to put forward your thoughts on the topic.
My daughter is named Becky, and she has complained about the way people have used that name to describe others.
She also uses the Karen term to belittle others. She says she dodged a bullet on that one.
No. And I was never offended by blond jokes although I was a blond.
@product I wish it were only the Guardian that had defined a definition of the ‘Karen’ phenomenon. Previously known as the Miss Ann or Becky as well as Permit Patty to name a few. Time Magazine has had a go as well as various Universities.
Thank you very much for your invitation to state my own thoughts on this topic. I was going to leave it up for more comments but here goes:
I feel any racism, whether targeted at white or black people, male or female, whether it is overt or covert horrific. I was more concerned here about people called Karen- and how they feel, or if people knew women or men called -Karen. I recently read that Trump was called Karen in Chief, which is a fun fact. I think it is a shame when people are grouped together and stereotyped in any shape or form. I am very much a human rights spokesperson because of my background.
If I had not expanded on the question, it might have read something like “Hey!, do you know someone called Karen”?
I know many women called Karen and would call none of them a “Karen.” It’s not a term I’ve ever used but I see it as a shorthand for a type of behavior by white women that is both entitled and bigoted. I’m not sure how useful a term it really is. Oddly enough, most males who exhibit those behaviors are just called entitled racist pricks. I will say that since the behaviors derive from a sense of privilege and entitlement, I do see them as basically white behaviors which is not to say that people of other races can’t be obnoxious or bossy in other ways.
I have actually been called a Karen once and it pissed me off. There were these boys in the apartments behind me revving their engines for hours. For what reason I don’t know. But I yelled at them to knock it off.
@anniereborn A feminist friend of mine thinks it is frequently used to belittle women and I can understand that.
@janbb: “I’m not sure how useful a term it really is.”
I agree. However, language is fluid and isn’t a top-down thing. When I worked retail, we had “types” for sure. Sharing these stories with co-workers in ways that they would most certainly understand would be helpful. I can understand how shortcuts arise.
It seems that much of the “karen” stuff I see online lately refer to men and women of all colors who have decided that they have the “right” to not wear a mask in a private establishment and decide to take it out on minimum-wage employees.
@CybertonSlapback: “I feel any racism, whether targeted at white or black people, male or female…”
If calling someone out for their behavior is considered racist, you’ve succeeded at robbing “racism” of all meaning.
@CybertonSlapback – I think it’s also worth considering that the ubiquity of smartphones has made it possible for people to finally capture some of the behavior that people have had to put up with for a long time and were never really believed. Anyone can record these public interactions and while there is some schadenfreude involved in much of the consumption of these videos, there is also some sense that there is at least some tool that people have to fight back against the abuse they take. Sometimes these “karens” or whatever term or non-term is used end up with serious consequences for their actions.
Do you see this racist and abusive behavior and think, “I really wish there were a better term that we could use to refer to this behavior”? You’re not going to find one. And language doesn’t really work like that.
I’ve never heard of weight being one of the attributes of the stereotype.
I’ve seen “Karen” videos on YouTube and they’re entitled women who yell and demand things, but they’re all ages and sizes.
No. Words don’t offend me.
I think a good name for the guy name of it would be “Bob.”
I would rather the name be something suitable for both male and female, like “Taylor.”
Or “Asshole.”
Yes. Well, maybe offended is the wrong word, but I find it in bad taste, obnoxious, and I never like name calling.
^ What word would you prefer to refer to the phenomenon?
It’s better than calling them a fucking bitch!
I know three Karen’s and they don’t care about this.
No. If my name were Karen I wouldn’t be too happy about it, but there are already a number of names that have common negative associations (Chad, for example) so this isn’t a unique case. It is a noticeable behavior type that should be able to be referred to. Is it the best term? No, but as @product points out, language is not top-down, terms arise because people use them, they can’t be forced. And anyone saying it’s “racist against white women” is being ridiculous. The behavior is certainly not unique to white women (a number of black people caught on video ranting at Asians in the Bay) and anyone exhibiting this entitled, toxic behavior deserves to be called out, whether the term “Karen” is used or not.
@product My mom’s name is Karen, and it really doesn’t have much to do with using that name. I once asked my mom if she minds, and her response was, “I didn’t know they call women Karens.”
What bothers me is a lot of women spend almost their entire lives doing things for others, not able to realize their dreams, taking a back seat to their husbands, and sacrificing in many ways. Additionally, when they see something happening that they know is wrong and say something, or fight back, or try to help someone else being harmed, husbands and society often tell the women to not interfere, or that it’s none of their business, to stop being a bitch, calm down, relax, what’s wrong with you, why are you acting crazy.
I’m tired of that. Women snap because they spend years having to stifle. Years of people dismissing their thoughts and opinions and what they know makes sense. Sometimes they are overboard, but calling them names isn’t helpful.
@JLeslie That’s totally not what Karens are about.
@rebbel Lately, I hear Karen used for any woman who is being annoying. It’s just thrown around as a way to degrade women in my experience.
A woman who asks to speak to a manager is a Karen. A woman who is trying to get what she believes is fair treatment is a Karen.
How do you define Karen? What would be a synonym?
Here’s the Wikipedia, but I hear it used in many ways. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobiographical_novel
Maybe if I’m not understand that’s another reason why the term sucks.
@JLeslie Sorry Bullwinkle – must have been the wrong hat! Check your link.
A woman who demands to talk to a manager after she attempts to browbeat a defenseless employee into doing something they aren’t allowed to do is a Karen.
The use of Karen as a pejorative isn’t some mutable monolithic concept.
It’s use by the obnoxiously loud aholes who applied it to @anniereborn, is one example of a subsequent co-option by those driven by toxic masculinity.
However, it’s still also applicable to those who e.g., call the police on black people who are engaged in innocent and legal activities, such as loading their luggage into their cars, etc.
Generally speaking, it’s still applicable to anyone regardless of their gender, who behaves like the person exemplified by @Dutchess_III‘s comment.
@JLeslie – I think we’re talking about different things.
Oops https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(slang)
@product What are you talking about?
Ok, maybe I didn’t understand the definition, but I was called a Karen one time on fluther, and I don’t mistreat employees, I don’t assume Black people are stealing or criminals, I don’t do any of those things. I was just upset about something. I don’t remember what it was, but the name calling stuck with me.
My husband’s wife was married to a Karen. Once we went to Pizza Hut. The waitress came to take our order. Cathy, Rick’s best friend’s wife, ordered a coffee.
Well, it’s Pizza Hut. They don’t have coffee.
Cathy just threw a fit. “I have never heard of a restaurant that doesn’t have coffee!!”
She just went on and on and on until the waitress pleaded “It’s not up to me what Pizza Hut serves.”
Cathy finally shut up. But she took it to such a personal level with the waitress, like it was her fault, that it was humiliating and embarassing to all of us except Cathy, who felt she was justified in taking out her outrage on the poor waitress.
@Dutchess_III If she were Black or Hispanic would she still be called a Karen? I completely agree her behavior was awful, the waitperson shouldn’t be put through that.
What if a woman points out to an employee at a store or business that something could be done a better way? Or, just wants to make a suggestion. Not a complaint, but a lot of people probably perceive it as a complaint. Is she a Karen?
I don’t see it as racist to call out a bitch who came looking for a fight. I have a dear friend whose name is Karen and she’s as sweet as she can be. So, I don’t care much for the term “Karen” to call out the behavior. At the same time, I can’t think of a better reference, so I don’t let it bother me. Like some of the others here, it’s not my name so I don’t take it personal. My friend says that she doesn’t take it personal because she knows that she doesn’t act that way. If it doesn’t bother her, I have no reason to grow upset with the reference. The entitled males that I’ve seen on video have all been referred to as “male Karens”. I’ve never heard any that were called out with a male’s name as a reference. I also try to make it a point to simply pass over those types of vlogs so as to cut back on the attention these people are getting. Some just do it for their 15 seconds of fame. Also, the authorities have begun to notice who is calling the complaints and have been arresting the “Karens” so they’re inconvenienced and hopefully stop being so offensive.
@JLeslie What if a woman points out to an employee at a store or business that something could be done a better way? Is she a Karen?
No, she’s not a Karen at all. But unfortunately, many would call her a bitch, even if she’s just trying to be helpful.
@smudges That’s right. I take issue with the idea that a person just trying to help is a horrible person.
I worked in retail for many years, and I’m the first to protect my staff from abusive customers, and I also get really upset when people who work with the public are abused by customers, patients, and employers.
Making a suggestion is not abuse. Making a complaint is not annoying to businesses that really care about improving their business and customer service. There’s a big difference between being calm and making a suggestion and giving an employee a hard time.
Some people just don’t want to listen to women at all. Not that only women make suggestions or complain, but I think they do it more often. Maybe I’m wrong about that.
I was on a Facebook thread where the OP was asking people in the community where I live what’s one thing you would change. Lots of people had suggestion. Quite a few people said they love it here and can’t believe all the complaints and how people don’t appreciate how wonderful it is. I don’t remember seeing complaints, it was all suggestions.
@Dutchess_III I assume you are answering my question about the woman being Black or Hispanic.
I’m not a fan. Whoever came up with the term made their point long ago and now it is used as a way to abuse women, and a perfectly lovely and acceptable name has been ruined for the foreseeable future.
It’s not to abuse women, it’s to characterise women, and men, that are abusing other people (staff from restaurants, dog walkers, etc.) for no apparent reason, other than the delusional one they have in their head.
Again, they come in all varieties, both genders.
Right @rebbel? The delusion that they know that person’s job better than that person knows it. The delusion that they know everything better than anyone else.
I do think, on one hand, that the term is so broadly applied that it’s lost some of its utility. For example, when answering this question I was thinking more of the “racist rant” Karen rather than the “entitled customer” Karen and they may not be closely related, but at the same time I think they both reflect a level of entitlement and disregard for others’ humanity present in many people of various races and genders. Offering a suggestion, as @JLeslie mentioned, is not something I would consider “Karen” behavior. But anyone who’s worked in customer service has dealt with the person who thinks the rules shouldn’t apply to them and becomes irate when you won’t make an exception for them. That kind of person does deserve to be called out.
I associate “Karens” with women with a low IQ.
The ones that promote Horse wormer ,or pool cleaner? ^^
That. And they overestimate themselves.
And they always use vile language.
Thanks @jca3
^ People with lower IQs often do. Kinda like humming when you don’t know the words. ;D
^ Thank you! Learn something new. . .
No.
When someone uses the term it tells me they lack original thought and intelligence and they must be avoided.
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