Do you agree with Whoopi Goldberg that the Holocaust was "not about race"?
Whoopi Goldberg has been suspended from The View for a comment she made in which she suggested that the Holocaust was “not about race” but about “man’s inhumanity to man”.
Is this a controversy over whether Jews are considered a “race” or not? I know we have a number of people here who identify as Jewish, religiously or ethnically, so I’d be interested to hear from you.
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She has since walked her comment back and now says she was wrong, that the Holocaust was about race. Apparently she received a very quick “schooling” on the matter.
I absolutely believe the Holocaust was about race and that Hitler felt that the Jewish people needed to be eradicated in order to form a more perfect race.
I am not Jewish.
It’s a long subject and you can do some research if you care to learn more. I recently learned that anti-Jewish bigotry became defined by German philosophers in the 19th century as “anti-semitism” specifically so that Judaism was defined as a race that one could not convert out of. Thus, yes it was about the elimination of a race as well as other undesirables such as homosexuals and Romanii.
In any case, it doesn’t matter that much whether I consider it a race or not but what the people trying to kill me use as their excuse.
(And I do not feel that Goldberg should necessarily have been suspended, I am not outraged by her remark. She was educated and then apologized. Case closed.)
Whoopi got it wrong, realized her mistake, and corrected herself.
She is black, and she is focused on black/white as the racial determination.
Because of my wife, I will mentioned that the Holocaust also targeted those with physical disabilities. The Nazis also put the deaf in their camps.
So, while the Holocaust was about race, it wasn’t only about race. It was about undesirables.
^^ Thanks. I mentioned “undesirables” but not the disabled.
The part of the Holocaust targeted against Jews, was absolutely about race, because the Nazis regarded Jews as being a race.
Of course, many more people besides Jews were murdered in the camps. Gays, Jehova’s witnesses, Communists, Gypsies, the mentally and physically disabled, all were target’s for the Nazis’ indistrial extermination campaign.
I think many people who consider themselves “woke” are, actually, not. So much depends on one’s point-of-view.
I think Whoopi is very smart, very intelligent, and, for the most part, very “woke.” But, like so many, not “woke” enough for all.
At least she didn’t get fired, which would have been WAY over the top!
This is why I am reluctant to breach the subject of race. It’s why I don’t like the idea of CRT. You just never know when you will, inadvertently, stick your foot in your mouth.
Maybe it’s best just to keep one’s mouth shut.
I think it is the all-too-common habit of the oppressed not acknowledging the oppression of others, because they are afraid it would diminish the severity of their own oppression.
@ragingloli Yes, I have noticed that among LGBT people, for example. And I have seen similar attitudes before where a black person might make sure to point out that Jews are white, to avoid equating levels of oppression (i.e. “oppression Olympics”).
Thanks for your answers.
@ragingloli It can work the other way though too. Many,many Jewish people were involved in the American Civil Rights movement because of their empathy with Blacks.
Was Whoopi wrong? Yeah, I think so. Is it worth all the hoo-haw that followed? Nope. She voiced an opinion. Everybody has opinions and nobody has exactly the same opinions as anyone else. At some point you will say something that someone disagrees with. It could be completely wrong, it could be a view point you don’t like….whatever…you will disagree with it. That is what dialogue is all about. If it is expected that everyone chant the same opinion as everyone else you are discussing tyranny.
But her opinion changed and I think that’s important @seawulf575.
I think Goldberg is wrong. Also I think that she is a bigot and a racist. But she should not have been silenced by being removed from the TV show “The View”. Goldberg has a right to free speech no mater how asinine, ridiculous and wrong. She has a right to prove her stupidity.
She made an indelicate and incorrect remark. She apologized and now has a two week vacation. When she goes back she can further clarify. Move on.
@gondwanalon: She’s not removed. She has two weeks off, probably without any change to her salary, so it’s basically an extra paid vacation.
I think the hard part for her going forward will be the wrath of coworkers and the public.
I have not paid close attention to this, but from what little I have read, she spoke without thinking too hard. I’m not sure that a suspension was called for. A simply “I learned from this” statement would have been fine.
For the record, Judaism is not and cannot be a race, because there are not common physical or biological characterists among all Jews. (except for circumcised penii). Tough luck for the Nazis.
There are plenty of people in the world who speak without thinking. She’s one of millions. WHy single Whoopi out?
She apologized and her apology was completely sufficient in my opinion, and she should not be suspended, that is ridiculous. I actually prefer the show when she is not there, but she does not deserve any punishment. Her apology could not have been more perfect, and I completely believe she was sincere.
She was wrong when she said the Holocaust was not about race, because the Nazis viewed the Jewish people as a race, more specifically as an inferior race. My own uncle in a WWII letter written to his sister (my grandmother) referred to the Germans and the German race. So, not only did the Nazis see us as a race, but during that time in history it seems the language of the era was to refer to groups as different races.
I immediately thought about a Black friend of mine who many years ago (like 25 years) was saying “white people” see Latin Americans as white too, so white are not racist against Latin Americans and don’t mind when they move into neighborhoods, like they do Black people. I told her she was wrong. Her perspective as a Black woman was off. I think Whoopi’s perspective was as a Black woman, and also not knowing or understanding the history.
Ironically, I have questioned the current use of the term “racism” when referring to antisemitism in present day, it is a little odd to me, because Jewish people are not commonly thought of as a different race now.
Have any of you even heard or seen her apology that she did the next day?
@gondwanalon Why do you think she is racist? This one incident?
@JLeslie I don’t think she’s racist. I think she’s a jerk, but not racist.
@Caravanfan That I am on board with. Like I said, I like the show better when she is not on it, but I think her apology was honest and she took what she learned to heart. I really believe that. No one can be ignorant anymore or make mistake? It’s tiresome. People are not perfect. Now, she knows better. When I heard her say it wasn’t racism I reacted immediately also, before I heard the hoopla around it, but my thoughts were simply she doesn’t know what she is talking about.
She also wasn’t wrong when she stated originally that the Holocaust was about man’s inhumanity to man. Both are true. Racism and the inhumanity.
She’s an idiot. Of course the Holocaust was about race.
I’m pretty indifferent to how The View wants to punish her for being stupid, I mean they’ve got a gang of hosts that say stupid shit constantly. If they were being consistent in their “saying stupid shit” policy, the show would just film an empty table.
@Dutchess_III Her opinion can change. That is what discussion is about. But punishing her because she said something people didn’t like is tyranny.
Didn’t they do the exact same thing to Sharon Osborne? And she was fired from the show.
You can’t say the Holocaust was “not about race” but the meaning of the word “race” has evolved over time and will probably evolve further as time goes on. It is more precise to say that Nazis killed Jews because they were Jews and I don’t think Whoopi Goldberg was denying that.
Yes, she should be suspended. She is a person airing conversation to millions. She should have her facts right BEFORE opening her mouth to tell us her opinion. Yes, she may have learned the hard way, but it was after the fact.
One more reason to not watch TV.
I do think it’s maybe a little of what @ragingloli said. I know more than one Black person who doesn’t think gay rights are a civil rights issue. Some were annoyed in Memphis when the Civil Rights museum had an exhibit room about the Holocaust. They think their ancestors’ experience is way worse than the Jews. My impression is they can’t fathom that Jewish people grow up knowing the horrors of their people just like Black people and have that weigh on our psyche, and that we have police cars in front of our places of worship because the hate and violence against us is still real. Their picture of Jews is they are white and prosperous and even old stereotypes like they own the banks and are landlords.
I don’t think Whoopi is as far as what I just described; she knows the Jews are targeted, she just didn’t understand the race element because she saw us as white and failed to put herself in the place of the Nazi and How they viewed Jews.
Right now, many Black people are somewhat obsessed with the systemic problems in America that work against them, which is completely understandable and justified, but this focus seems to make them unable to understand the similarities of racism in the past. I attended a couple of racism discussion zooms and they don’t want to hear one empathetic real life story relating to their experience by someone Jewish. They think it’s competing rather than empathetic. In that the competition they are sure they win.
I want to reinforce that I don’t mean all Black people are as I described. Many know their history and also know the Jewish people come out for them over and over again to fight for civil rights.
@Forever_Free So, in effect, you’re saying that Whoopi, or anyone else, should ALWAYS have her/their cake and eat it, too, at any given time, at any given place, without question, and without error.
I don’t think anyone, much less Whoopi, is that perfect.
In my opinion, her suspension is not a punishment. Maybe it might be humbling, and maybe it looks like punishment, but two weeks off with pay is no punishment.
Of course there is always the threat of punishment in the work place for getting out of line @seawulf575. What she said was incredibly insensitive and she deserved a reprimand. It’s a learning process.
@jca2 Maybe just a business decision to let things cool down, but it is kind of saying her apology and her realization of her mistake is not good enough. What Whoopi did is nothing like what some public people do and then their apology is really not good enough and not close to being sincere. In this case I don’t feel she should be lumped in with those people.
The next day when Whoopi apologized a guest talking about why the Holocaust was racist talked about The View should consider having a Jewish cohost if they are looking for a new cohost and want to be diversified. Joy joked that people think she is Jewish (LOL, that’s actually true, I once almost had an argument with my SIL about it, but I just let her keep thinking Joy was Jewish instead of proving it to her, because she has to be right). Joy didn’t bring up that in the past Italians were not considered to be white in America by some people, which I was surprised she missed that opportunity, and no one mentioned Barbara is Jewish, and is not there now, but they have had a Jewish presence in the past. He said it while a Black cohost was there basically trying out for the day.
@janbb Really good link! Touched on what I always say that Jews do not have a choice about being Jewish in the eyes of the haters. We cannot convert our way out, or say we don’t practice Judaism, or try to deny being Jewish. Hitler would not care what I say or if I practice my religion, he would only care that I was born Jewish, and that is still true about the haters today. I tell this to young Jewish people also, who say they aren’t religious or don’t really identify with being Jewish. I tell them they don’t really get a choice in the eyes of a society that has antisemitism.
I really like how the man in the video talked about The Jews are either seen as inferior or they are seen almost like a “super white” group, perceived as extremely privileged. Just wow. Such a good link. Sums it up so well.
@kritiper I am saying that you should have your facts straight. Period. No cake involved here, no perfection asked.
This topic is not something you can just opine on.
In the town next over, there is a holocaust museum that used to be a local extermination centre during the Nazi regime, where they murdered 15000 mentally ill and disabled people in a span of just over a year.
That place was actually the one that “pioneered” the gassing method later used in the main concentration camps.
@Dutchess_III I understand work place rules of behavior. But think about it: Whoopi is on a talk show. They are supposed to discuss issues. Yet because she voiced a view that didn’t match the narrative, you are saying that is considered getting out of line and in need of punishment? Then what’s the point of the show? Just to be an echo chamber, giving only one opinion with no variation allowed at all?
It was a bad thing to say.
No, it was inaccurate. She wasn’t saying the holocaust didn’t happen or that it was a good thing. She just didn’t share the opinion that Jews were a race. What she said wasn’t wrong, it just missed the piece about race. She said it was about man’s inhumanity to man, which is true.
See, this is the point I’m making. She voiced an opinion that it wasn’t about race. Everything else she said was spot on. And because of that one view (which, by the way was easily changed) there is all this hoo-haw. In other words, it is your view that unless she gets everything exactly right (to appease the woke left) she should be punished. Does that apply to Joy Behar? The next time she says something that isn’t correct she should be suspended? Or should everyone just accept that not everyone is always right, that people say things and possibly even believe things that aren’t 100% in line with the narrative?
I’ve never agreed with that fool about anything.
@chyna I meant to write about your comment about Sharon Osbourne. I thought it was ridiculous that they fired her.
@Forever_Free But you can’t stop people from stating what others may see as a questionable point of view when they are making what they feel are qualifying remarks at any given unprepared moment.
You expect perfection and there isn’t any.
She backtracked and that’s the importan thing @kritiper.
I was just emailing with my dad and some of his friends, most are Jewish, and none of them are very angry or upset about what Whoopi said, and completely accept that she now understands better why there was a backlash. My dad said he also talked about it in his discussion group he attends, about 20 of the people there are Jewish, and again none think what Whoopi said was so horrible, although they all agree she was incorrect about the Holocaust not being about race. All the Jewish people on this thread seem ok also.
So, who is it exactly that is so outraged that Whoopi needed to be suspended? What groups or individuals are so incensed? The way I see it, most Jewish people saw this as a teaching moment. The more I think about it, the more I am glad it happened.
Whoopi was wrong. She still is. She apologized for making people angry, but sticks to her story.
Her first mistake is believing racism is about who is under attack. That is only true sometimes.
Hitler’s aim was to eliminate anyone who was not a perfect Aryan. That was absolutely racist, in that he saw murder as a means of cleansing the world of imperfect races and individuals. That he sought to elevate one race as superior, is the most dramatic example of racism.
Although she is, and was wrong in her assessment of racism, that should not be cause for removing her from the show. I don’t think that was their true reason anyway. They simply don’t want their numbers to tank.
This way, all the angry people can vent at Whoopi, not the show.
It might be for the best. Maybe someone will get across to her that when someone prevents all future generations for infinity of a huge portion of a particular race, that is certainly racism. Sure, old Adolph had other hang-ups too, but race was his focus.
She seems to believe being Jewish is all about a religion, but true Jews are by heredity. They are a Hebrew tribe. They are a race. Sure, some people marry into “the community” but true Jews are born to it.
@Patty_Melt She didn’t stick to her story, she was explaining herself, and she cared that she had upset people. Your clip is the night when it happened. The next morning she apologized and explained her better understanding of why it’s a race issue. Obviously in between she learned more. The next morning she introduced a guest to better explain it to the audience.
In your clip she is simply explaining what she thought, her perspective, but that was due to her ignorance. She is saying she doesn’t see Jewish people as different than other white people, so how can that mean she is racist against Jews? It only means she doesn’t understand the history.
Whoopi didn’t really emphasize religion, she talked about man’s inhumanity to man. In my opinion that is a valid point. That is part of the problem in the world. Even Mayim Balik that same day on the show said she agreed with Whoopi on that point, and she was there to talk about Maus and related topics.
True Jews? So, I’m a true Jew because I was born a Jew from Jewish parents, but the woman who worked for me who is orthodox and observant and raised her children orthodox isn’t a true Jew because she converted? Most Jewish people do not consider ourselves a separate race, the Nazis did. The White Supremacists do. I’m not sure why you do.
All the Jewish people on this thread give Whoopi leeway, why not trust the actual minority? I think we would know if we are offended or if we believe she is racist or hateful. I have my doubts the people who accused her of denying the Holocaust were Jewish. They are most likely uber lunatic far left or far right is my guess.
You should watch @janbb’s link.
Whoopi Goldberg misspoke on a sensitive topic and a two week suspension is an appropriate response by the network. The Jews were massacred by the Nazis for their heritage. It makes no difference if that heritage is by birth or religion or culture. As to @seawulf575 ‘s point about freedom of speech, the television network also has a right to freedom of speech, and if they want to remove certain forms of it, they are legally allowed to do so. Bigots will have to find a different outlet for expressing themselves.
@LostInParadise My point was not freedom of speech. It was the idiocy of attacking someone who voiced an opinion on a talk show. I guess the show The View is aptly named as apparently they will accept nothing but THE view. Anything else is punishable. And your argument of free speech is double edged. You want to say the television network has the right to free speech but can punish individuals if they exercise their own right to free speech. In other words, you believe it is okay for one entity to suppress others for the exact same right. And it can nit-pick all the way down to minutiae if they like. In other words, they can exercise tyranny but try claiming the same right they are trampling on.
Yes they can nit-pick to any level they like. If that upsets you, boycott the shows sponsors and create a forum for bigots.
I don’t agree with Whoopi Goldberg but The Encyclopaedia of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum says this on its web pages which surprised me:
“According to the Nuremberg Laws, a person with three or four Jewish grandparents was a Jew. A grandparent was considered Jewish if they belonged to the Jewish religious community. Thus, the Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits that Nazism attributed to Jews. source
Wow. I have tried to find the full clip of Whoopi’s apology the next morning and her introduction of the guest and their conversation, and it cannot be found. It’s all short edits and media people talking over it. I know the full apology because I saw it on the actual show.
@flutherother , If being a Jew depended to any extent upon who your grandparents were, how could that not be racial?
@LostInParadise As I said it surprised me that it was defined in this way. I expect it was because sources of religious records existed but few or none of race per se.
@JLeslie Here is a full length clip of Whoopi talking to Colbert about this issue: https://youtu.be/SdkhVQZGSSU
Since when is being Jewish not a religion, but a race? Don’t we teach our children that race is based on skin color?
According to Whoopi herself, she was viewing this as a black person who, like most people, view race based on skin color.
I agree with her that is was not based on race. Why on earth are we at a point where people cannot have an opinion without being in some sort of trouble. Is it not obvious at this point that all types of corporate media are doing whatever they can to avoid public debates on serious topics? Why are we unable to talk about things as adults anymore?
^^I saw the Cobert on Patty’s clip. I’m talking about the day after on The View.
Whoopi got herself in trouble because when talking and teaching about the Holocaust the point is how the Nazis thought about race, not how a Black person in 21st Century in America thinks of race. In the end, hate for any reason, religion, race, nationality, it’s all a problem we can group people in any which way, but if we want to be accurate the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Jewish race, in their mind we were a race. If it was just religion he could have forced conversion like the Spanish Inquisition. Hitler wanted us dead.
@kritiper This is not about perfection as I restarted.
“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.” – Abe Lincoln
Excellent article @Caravanfan. Really nice.
Human beings are not static. The wiser ones shift understanding and perspective all the time, as Whoopie did, I think.
@Patty_Melt That is totally and utterly incorrect. There is no such thing as a “true Jew”. my god
Wasn’t Sammy Davis Jr a true Jew?
Failed attempt at humor that, @jca2.
Also she said “My family is Jewish, Buddhist, Baptist and Catholic — none of which I subscribe to, by the way, as I don’t believe in man-made religions.”
What religion is not man-made?
Whoopi is a comedian so she might have told off color jokes about JAP’s in the past. She’s in NYC, it’s not uncommon, especially 30–50 years ago. Jewish comedians made the same jokes. I still use the term sometimes behind closed doors. It’s no different than blonde jokes, or any group, which I guess have fallen out of favor. People might take more offense when someone outside of the group makes the joke. Like the huge backlash when Rosie O’Donnell on The View mimicked the accent of someone Chinese, a lot of people found it distasteful, but Margaret Cho invokes her mom’s Korean accent in her comedy all of the time.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Whoopi has done some things that annoy me as a white or Jewish person, but overall I perceive her as defending minorities and not hating anyone.
@kritiper – “This topic is not something you can just opine on”. Since when? Everyone is entitled to their opinions, if you disagree with them you dont have to watch the show. Television hosts aren’t public servants, they have no moral obligation to avoid offensive topics. What offends you may not offend someone else. You dont get to decide what subjects can or cannot be discussed. Saying the holocaust wasn’t about race was stupid, but everyone has the right to say stupid shit. You don’t have to like it, but you don’t get to make that choice for anybody else.
@malcomkade It’s the broadcast stations and their advertising overlords that drive the content. Free speech is not guaranteed in corporate entities. It also, has been famously put by a jurist, stops when your fist is about to hit my nose.
Freedom of speech only means that the government can not dictate what you can and can not say, write, or publish.
It has no relevance for how companies decide to act.
In fact, when Twitter and Co. decide to delete posts or suspend people for things they say/write, they are in fact excercising their own free speech rights by deciding what is published on their own platforms.
Im not arguing free speech in corporate entities. You said “This topic is not something you can just opine on”. That isn’t true. It’s just your opinion. That doesn’t mean people have to shut up unless they have 100% of the facts like you want. Finally, I don’t understand the fist hitting your nose thing you said. I think getting punched in the face and hearing Whoopi say something stupid on the view are nowhere close to the same. You lost me.
As we established in pms, I was not the one who said that. However, I think her follow up statement that it was just white people against white people was actually the more ignorant one and shows a profound disregard for the reality of the history of antisemitism. Considering the rise of antisemitism again in the contemporary world, it was a pretty stupid thing to say. I’m not arguing for or against her suspension from The View and I’m not saying that Goldberg is antisemitic but it was not just an innocent opinion.
The point about fist and noses is that hate speech is one of the places where “free speech” reaches its limits.
@janbb Is what she said hate speech? She basically didn’t know Jews were a race, she grouped them in with white people. Does anyone really think she said that out of hate? The “outrage” over what she said has been way overboard. A 66 year old black comedian said Jews are white people, oh no. Why did she say it? Because she is a nazi? No. Because she’s racist? No. Is what she said harmful to Jewish and/or Caucasian people? No. Are a large percentage of Jewish people white? Yes.
In a world with real nazis, people are choosing to demand Whoopi Goldberg face repercussions because of HER “racism”. Most of the people complaining are white, being offended on behalf of the Jews, at a black woman for being racially insensitive. She has dealt more with racism than 90% of the people calling for her job. The company she works for made the decision, but they did it based on people complaining on Twitter. That is just an online version of grabbing pitchforks and torches. It’s time for people to admit the difference in degrees of bad behavior. That’s why we have 1st degree murder, 2nd degree, manslaughter, ect. People want to punish everyone guilty of racism like all racism is equal. It’s not.
To the point on hate speech. I’m aware that it isn’t protected by free speech, but it’s not the same as punching someone. Speech is not violence.
What is the definition of “race”? Is it skin color? Genetic traits?
The point is it doesn’t matter if Jews have white skin tones. The Nazis targeted us because they saw us being a different race and wanted us eliminated. Therefore it is about race.
I 100% agree. I just don’t think the “outrage ” is warranted in this circumstance.
@Caravanfan I’m sure the Nazis would not have made exceptions for Jews who converted to Christianity. It is also my understanding they target the Romani people as well.
The holocaust was genocide based on race. There’s really no counterargument.
@gorillapaws That’s exactly my point. Even though Jews are “white” by and large we were still targeted as a separate “race”. Therefore it was about race.
I read a fantastic book about 10 years ago called The Racial State that goes through the roots of racism in Germany back to the 1800s.
@gorillapaws My daughter is ¼ “genetically” Jewish. She has ¾ Scandanavian and central European ancestry. She is tall, blond, blue eyed, and doesn’t look “Jewish” at all. But she would have been killed along with me.
@Caravanfan Great points. I’ll have to look into that book. And just to be clear, I was agreeing/expanding your points earlier.
Targeting more than one race is still racist. The Nazis believed they were superior to all other races.
It caught on because Germany was experiencing financial disaster. To elevate the status of the people, by denegrating and robbing others, it gave the people hope for a lucrative future.
It was all about race, imperfect people, and emerging pure, and wealthy. That was how he sold it. Personally, he had a god complex, and wanted to be smothered in finery.
The war he waged was all about race. Weird is, he didn’t fit the criteria.
It is very typical that white supremacists often look like the opposite of the master race.
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