Victoria's Secret has posted a campaign featuring a model with Down syndrome. Is this inclusivity something to be celebrated? Exploitative? Something else?

Victoria’s Secret screaming “Look how woke we are!”

I’m going to assume the model is quite happy being included. She’s getting paid, she’s getting to do what she (hopefully) loves.

“It is my understanding that people with intellectual disabilities can’t consent to sexual activities (but I could be wrong about this).”

I don’t believe this is a one size fits all statement. It would depend on the severity of the intellectual disability.

Adults with Intellectual Disabilities: Capacity to Consent to Sexual Activity for example

“It is critical to remember that a diagnosis of ID, by itself, does not automatically mean that a person lacks capacity to consent to sexual activity. ”

American Bar Association.

Carefully assessing consent issues is key since some older children with intellectual disabilities can consent to sexual activity. Many adults with intellectual disabilities not only engage in consensual sex but also have long-term committed relationships. Many have children and raise them with support. It is wrong to conclude that anyone with an intellectual disability is incapable of consenting to sex; rather, each case must be analyzed based on the facts.

@SergeantQueen Great points. Thanks for improving my understanding of the issue and correcting my misconceptions.

Do you think there is a different intellectual threshold for someone to be able to consent to sex in their private life and being able to fully understand the ramifications of being sexualized publicly by modeling in their underwear in a national ad campaign? Would it be ok for her to consent to perform in pornography for example? Or do you think if she’s intellectually capable of consenting to sex in her private life, then she meets the threshold to model in sexually suggestive (and possibly pornographic ways if she wanted)?

A lot of women, regardless of intellectual disability or lack thereof, underestimate the consequences of posting certain pictures, or videos, online.

I don’t believe the majority of women truly “understand” the ramifications.

Anyways, Some women do understand. Once, again, I don’t believe having an I.D fully matters. If they were not forced, coerced, or otherwise manipulated into the process, and were as educated as they could be on the potential consequences, that it is okay for them to do any type of sexual behavior.

My point is, I don’t believe an intellectual disability matters as long as they willingly consented and were properly explained everything, and understood the explanations, if that makes sense?

@SergeantQueen ”...if that makes sense?”

I guess so. I think I’m getting hung up on the difference between being capable of fully understanding the ramifications but not doing so, and someone who doesn’t have the intellectual ability to fully understanding the ramifications. I feel like there’s an important distinction there. I also think that’s potentially more challenging to fully understand than simply consenting to sex with a partner (I might be wrong about that too).

@gorillapaws It seems to me that you’re over sexualizing modeling in underwear. Would you feel more comfortable if she was modeling a bikini and not underwear? Bikini’s are a lot more sexual. Victoria’s Secret has built their brand on the idea that their sexy models are wearing “just their underwear”. They have brainwashed the public into seeing their product as a naughty, sexual fantasy item. I don’t see it that way. When I see their models, I see very attractive females & I don’t see them as being sexualized in any way. I’m sure that there are more people like you than there are like me & that’s why VS is a multi million dollar business

Why do you feel that it’s OK for one of their top models, say Miranda Kerr, to choose to sexualize herself & wrong for Sofia Jirau? They are both being used for the profit of the corporation. Had you seen Sofia’s pic without it being labeled as the “model with Down” you would have found her attractive & appealing & thought nothing of it. Where I grew up, if you had Down, your job was going to be busing tables at a local diner. This girl has worked hard to break the mold of the stereotyped label placed on her. If you feel uncomfortable looking at her, I’d suggest that you look at one of the others that make you feel more comfortable. You’re still sexualizing somebody’s little girl & I doubt that they understand what’s happening any more than Sofia does

VS is attempting to do a rebrand because their profit margin is declining. Should VS be shut down because they are using and abusing young women from all walks of life

I think you are coming at this from the wrong end of the stick.

Wearing underwear for a photo shoot is not a sexual activity. How do we know she is not capable of making that choice? It’s also not a “woke” moment. it is a diversification effort of inclusiveness. People complained in the past that all there models were not the typical woman.

I think it’s great as people used to be encouraged to abort DS babies. And there are degrees of the spectrum so for me, it’s a personal decision she makes for herself.
Even just reading this shows the public needs to be more knowleadgeable about DS. There are several reality shows streaming that dispel many old notions I’d encourage people to watch.

In the Netherlands we treat persons with Down Syndrome as humans.
They go to school, they work, they love, they have relationships.
They have opinions, thoughts, emotions, and they make decisions.
They are nice, they are assholes, they vote, they are sexy, they dance, they play in TV series.

Kudos to Sofia.

@SEKA “It seems to me that you’re over sexualizing modeling in underwear.”

That could be.

“Would you feel more comfortable if she was modeling a bikini and not underwear?”

100% more comfortable.

“Bikini’s are a lot more sexual.”

Some bikinis show more skin, but underwear is marketed as being a bedroom thing. It’s about lust, feeling sexy, wanting your partner to look sexy. There is a sexual energy to Victoria’s Secret’s marketing. Bikinis are about being out in public, having fun in the sun and showing off your body. I’m reminded of this question.

“Why do you feel that it’s OK for one of their top models, say Miranda Kerr, to choose to sexualize herself & wrong for Sofia Jirau?”

I’m not sure. On one hand I think it’s perfectly fine, but on the other I feel uneasy about it. I was trying to explore the nature of that internal conflict with this question. Maybe it has to do with the ability to consent? Maybe it’s more of an issue with me? We don’t find our relatives sexually attractive, despite acknowledging that they may be objectively beautiful/handsome. I feel the same about a girl who is too drunk to consent: she may be beautiful, but not sexually attractive in that moment, and I think I’m getting the same vibes from this as well.

Yes, there are Down syndrome actors now in film and television shows and certainly DS people in relationships.

@gorillapaws You may be thinking about all the stories of DS women who are gang raped or otherwise abused but there is a range of abilities and understanding levels in DS people. And it does seem like you might be over sexualizing underwear ads.

Also, reading the article, she apparently is already a working model, owns a business and has a web site and is working for inclusiveness:

“On Wednesday, Jirau took to Instagram to express her excitement for the milestone.
“One day I dreamt it, I worked at it and today it’s a dream come true. I can finally share my big secret. I am the first model with Down syndrome for Victoria (sic) Secret!” reads a translation of her post. “Thank you to all of you who always supported my projects. Thank you Victoria’s Secret for seeing a model in me…and making me part of the inclusion campaign Love Cloud Collection. This is just the beginning!”
Victoria’s Secret is overhauling its image. Is it enough to regain relevance?
Jirau has been modeling since 2019 and also owns an online store called “Alavett,” a Spanish-English play on words for the phrase “I love it.” In February 2020, Jirau became one of the few models with Down syndrome to walk in New York Fashion Week. She emphasizes through her social media accounts that her goal is to encourage others to pursue their dreams.
“I always say ‘Inside and out there are no limits’ to motivate people to break through their self-imposed limitations,” she writes on her website.”

She doesn’t sound like a hapless victim of exploitation to me!

I think it’s fine, but I do think they’re playing the woke PR game. Victoria’s secret was like a free playboy magazine that came in the mail (for the articles) when I was a teenager. I’m sure they feel that in today’s climate they must shift directions.

Those free “Playboy” magazines that came in the mailbox were only “Playboys” because we, horny teenagers, perceived them as such.
For most people (mostly female, I suppose) they were underware magazines.

Also, why woke?
It should be (have been) normal to picture all kinds of people in all kinds of publications.
Be they able or less so, be they whole or ‘damaged’, all colors, all genders, all sizes.

@janbb “And it does seem like you might be over sexualizing underwear ads.”

That could be, but I suspect you’d be uncomfortable with Victoria’s Secret taking the same photos of a 15-year-old in her underwear, but ok with that same young model wearing a bikini on a beach photoshoot, right? To me this does feel like it’s in a different category of sexual suggestiveness.

It also could be due to my lack of knowledge about the levels of intellectual ability of people with DS. I’ve never met a woman with DS that I would feel comfortable having a romantic relationship with; it would feel like a power imbalance and exploitative/coercive. But perhaps there are women with DS where that wouldn’t be true?

I think it is the fashions that are the point of Victoria’s Secret, not the state of the models.

@gorillapaws I understand what you’re saying. There is something of a bedroom context to lingerie. However, if you read the quote from the model, she is not being exploited at all. She is building a career.

@janbb ”...if you read the quote from the model, she is not being exploited at all.”

I would agree that Sofia Jirau doesn’t believe she’s being exploited. I’m not sure that fact necessarily proves that she isn’t being exploited (though I guess it could).

I don’t see it as an either or issue.

Victoria Secret catalogues have always been sexual in nature. Most guys I know grew up with them as they were also figuring out their own sexuality.

The women in Victoria’s Secret are both commodified and empowered. Objectified for their sexuality. And also taking back some of the control of how they are objectified.

These are all beautiful women regardless of neurotype. You don’t think they’re already being objectified in real life? To be honest, you don’t even need to be exceptionally beautiful to be objectified. Sadly enough, that’s just the reality of being a woman.

As for ID and sexuality, that needs to be determined case by case. More often than not, I’d lean towards giving the individual more agency.

Statistically-speaking, individuals with disabilities are at higher risk for sexual abuse. But there are a lot of issues that compound this. One is infantilizing disabled adults. The idea that they have the mind of a child. This kind of thinking is harmful because it takes away self agency and creates barriers to appropriate sexual education. It follows the same thinking of sexual education will lead to sex.

If a model with Down syndrome wants to become a model and explore her own sexuality, I’d say that would help to decrease her risk because it gives her a better understanding of how she is sexualized in the world as a woman.

People do not exist in a bubble. If you’re concerned about individuals with ID, advocate for them to get the same sexual education. Let them explore their own sexuality. Empower them to have self agency.

@rebbel Yo must realize that for decades Victoria’s secret was the publication that only showcased the most beautiful, cosmetically flawless women…. to sell sexy underwear. They were the .05% and not realistic in any way. It was actually better than playboy. I think it’s great that they’re showing more realistic people and it’s long overdue but this sudden shift is calculated and has nothing to do with their good will toward women. It’s because this direction is now profitable for them. “Woke” = $

Also, while I disagree with your take on this, I appreciate you asking this question. It’s not a topic that’s often discussed. And it should be.

If she’s getting paid equally and higher functioning DS with the ability to make rational decisions I then it’s fine. There are varied levels of IQ among people with DS. They shouldn’t be excluded simply based on a DS diagnosis. For any job they should be evaluated on their abilities like anyone.

Of course it is sex pot stuff. The models are generally sexy, but most modeling is about being beautiful and sexy.

It’s not really about catering to the DS market though, it’s a very small group of people. It’s about catering to people who obsess about being inclusive. Ironically, I think people who are politically to the right tend to push Down Syndrome being a life like any other life, etc.

@raum I appreciate your insightful answer. I don’t really have a “take” on this. I’m genuinely conflicted. On one hand, I think inclusivity is awesome. Sofia Jirau has broken a barrier, and that should be celebrated. I completely agree with your take about Ms. Jirau taking back her agency/bodily autonomy, and hadn’t considered how this could actually decrease her risk—but it does make sense.

On the other, I had a visceral reaction to the image in the article that “feels” wrong. I was trying to understand the nature of why that’s so. Perhaps it’s because I’ve never seen a woman with ID in her underwear and it was simply a new experience? Perhaps it’s because I’m guilty of infantilizing people with DS and really lack the understanding of the range of their intellectual capacity (this is sounding the most likely to me)?

@gorillapaws I definitely appreciated the way you approached this question. With an open mind, really digging into why you were having this visceral reaction.

On any issue in regards to disability advocacy, a good rule of thumb is to ask the people themselves.

So throwing in this link
Hope that helps!

@Blackwater_Park Woke = $€, I agree, in that every business, as far as I can tell, will always jump on every bandwagon, because everything that’s trendy, or a hot topic in society, will make for free publicity, and thus, more dough.
So yeah, in that sense I agree.

It would be great if we (as a global society) hadn’t discuss the fact that Julia, the girl with Down Syndrome was in the VS, but just Julia.
That’s at least my ideal.

@rebbel I wholeheartedly agree

It doesn’t bother me in the slightest. She made a choice, applied for the job, and got the job.

Well, she doesn’t look like she has Downs.
She’s also the sexiest of all the models shown.
From what she wrote it would appear she is very high functioning and made a conscious decision to pursue such a career. Good for her

Not to be rude @gorillapaws I just think you are WAY over thinking this.

Some people with an intellectual disability can consent to sex, sexual acts, modeling, signing contracts, whatever.

Some people with an intellectual disability can’t do those things.

There really is no need to be conflicted or confused. It’s simple.

So after thinking about everything, I wanted to look at the image again, and I also found another from the campaign. I think what was bothering me about it was her facial expression, and also the necklace that said “soft” right above her bust. She looks uncomfortable and possibly even a little afraid and I think that coupled with a misunderstanding of the capacity for sexual autonomy in high functioning DS women is what triggered my reaction. In the other image of her from the campaign, Sophia is smiling and seems to be having fun and I didn’t get the same visceral reaction. Also immediately below Sofia’s photo is an image of Sylvia Buckler with a big smile and a baby-bump. So there was a weird juxtaposition there.

Anyways, I appreciate all of the input/great answers, and I definitely learned some things today.

@gorillapaws Congratulations! This is our Question of the Day!

@SergeantQueen I really have to disagree. If anything, I wish more people would ask these kinds of questions. Why do we have the visceral reactions that we do? What internal beliefs are driving this?

Even when we have positive reactions, it’s worth reflecting upon. Have you noticed that one of the most common compliments that people give to people with Down Syndrome is that they don’t look like they have Down Syndrome? That’s a statement on ideals of beauty and disability.

I wouldn’t guess she has DS, so I’m not sure how much she really represents them in terms of people judging based on looks.

Thought I would answer the question as asked.

Everything I have seen about this (including the ads) indicates that yes, VS is using this opportunity as a marvelous PR event (all that free advertising!) and therefore a bit exploitative from that standpoint, but I believe that representation in such a positive way is always a very good thing.

Too long there have been absolute labels about conditions that are extremely nuanced (autism being another one) and it is important to understand that these are not conditions where one size fits all.

Not having a visceral reaction.

It is a simple response. All the confusion is not needed

@SergeantQueen Having a discussion does not equate to being confused.

I am most impressed by the open dialogue and attempt to understand both sides of the post @gorillapaws

Really an interesting question and some very thoughtful responses.

I think you already have enough good information to sort out the answer. I can’t really add much to what SergeantQueen, raum, and others have offered already. My own comments are more review and reaction.

I’d say it’s true that a more detailed legal process is developing for determining the degree of knowing consent in cases involving sexual abuse of disabled persons. But it’s a work in progress. More attorneys are aware that it’s important to gather all relevant medical and psychological assessments, and look at each case individually. But many states still have strict laws that automatically define an intellectual disabilty as lack of competence. However, risk of sexual abuse is a special circumstance and doesn’t really grasp the range of experience Downs people have as they live thorough childhood to become adults. The legal community still needs to catch up.

There’s much more research being done on Trisomy 21/Downs now, both in the US and Europe. Some findings indicate more variation in intellectual development and higher potential than previously assumed :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3798834/

The issue of IQ measurement is being looked at more closely. Up to now common opinion has been that Downs people could never progress beyond an IQ of 50. But the new data shows that real development is possible throughout lifespans, with some Trisomy subjects scoring 80 or better on tests – only 20 points below a “normal” IQ. So with ongoing education & support Downs people can achieve a reasonable degree of independence in structured situations.

And finally what about those VS model spreads? Innapproriate? Exploiative? Too sexy or too “woke” ? Personally I think it’s fine. Jirau is a cutie and evidently has some experienced managers backing her. I hope she does well. Victoria’s is a long way from being a porn house. Wokeness is as wokeness does, and in this case you can be sure it’s marketing first and politics second (I mean, it got your attention right?) And as far as exploitation, I can tell you from personal experience modelling exploits everybody. Being a smart, educated adult is no protection. You just have to choose how you get used.

@JLoon Thanks for your excellent response. How do you interpret her facial expression? Is that the modeling “blank stare” thing? or could she be uncomfortable/afraid?

@JLoon It is shocking to me that “they” were still saying IQ of 50 as the top any time recently. It’s been for years now that we have had actors who have DS, and many hold down jobs, and various other demonstrations of higher IQ and capabilities.

Although, I also don’t want to idealize the condition, because most do have a very low IQ and also many of them are born with serious medical issues that need surgery to survive at birth or soon after. The pro-life movement completely ignores those facts. If a family wants to not do extreme surgery at the time of birth, and let nature take its course, usually a court order is filed, and the surgery is done against the parents’ wishes. To be clear, not all DS babies need extreme surgeries.

It’s not really about inclusivity or Down’s Syndrome it’s about getting women to buy underwear. It’s good for Victoria’s Secret and it’s good for Sofia Jirau but I doubt if it is much is it good for the average person with Down’s. Next year they will have a different campaign.

@flutherother We’ve heard about minority representation for many years now. In 2020 the first DS person presented at the Academy Awards. Why would it be any different or less important for them than any other minority group?

To me she looks shy.

Lingerie is what I always wore to get my husband in the mood for the bedroom. Underwear is what I wore under my clothes when I went to work!!! In the pic with the OP’s link, Sofia is NOT wearing a bra, it looks more like a swimsuit top. Anyway, I don’t see a bra & panties as being that sexual. This, on the other hand, IS sexual but it’s OK because it’s called a bikini & represents fun on the beach…NOT the bedroom!!!

Going out on a limb here…I’m going to presume that since her parents aren’t freaking out about her being exploited that she’s proven to them that she’s capable of thinking for herself & they see NO harm being done to their daughter!!!

@LadyMarissa I really do not feel the same way as you. Women can look sexy in underwear, bathing suits, clothing, it isn’t really a matter of where a garment is meant to be worn. Someone has a great body, looks confident, they will look sexy. Men tend to respond to nakedness.

@gorillapaws – That’s so close to my own expression, in over half my shots. Sometimes it’s called Mollyface. It’s one of about 20 standard face-looks photographers try to get in a typical shoot. Supposed to be dreamy/sexy/vulnerable. Meh.

@JLeslie – Yep. Old ideas die slow. The 50 IQ max assumption was around until about the mid 80’s, and it was behind the idea that all Downs people needed to be institutionalized regardless of their real intelligence or functional level. Here’s one report on the history :
https://www.globaldownsyndrome.org/about-down-syndrome/the-story-of-two-syndromes/

I’m honestly just reading the thread because I legitimately do not know. I’ve already learned a lot, though.
My initial answer is we should be asking them how they feel themselves about it.

Apparently for her it was a dream come true..

@Dutchess__lll
Yea there’s our answer.

She seems totally fine with it.
https://cnalifestyle.channelnewsasia.com/style-beauty/sofia-jirau-victoria-secret-model-down-syndrome-303121

On her part, I see it as a good thing. She is not automatically being rejected because of a trait entirely out of her control. On the part of Vicki’s Secrets, I see it as exploitive. They are purposely using her to make themselves look good. True inclusivity isn’t bragging about it. It is just doing it and enjoying life. EVERY time someone does something because it is “inclusive” it is exploitive.

They use ALL the models to make themselves look good @seawulf575.

@Dutchess_III That is true…they want to showcase their wares to the best presentation they can. However, there are tons of models out there. All can make their stuff look good. To hire one specifically because they have Down Syndrome isn’t done as a presentation thing. It is done as an inclusivity thing. At that point they are exploiting her birth defect so they can make themselves look more woke. But as I said, the girl is getting work so for her it is good. And she is a lovely girl.

@seawulf575 Anything that is not cookie-cutter white model is an inclusivity thing…until it’s not. All of advertising is exploitative. This is literally no different.