Social Question

jca2's avatar

Do you think that Joe Biden has become a problem for the Democratic party?

Asked by jca2 (16826points) January 21st, 2023

I voted for Joe Biden last time around. I felt he had experience, intelligence and yes, I felt anything was better than Trump, and Joe had a better chance of winning over Bernie or others.

Many people feel that he’s too old now, too slow, and then he’s got the document problem which is looming.

I feel that in the past two years, he has slowed down a lot and makes a lot of gaffes. He often appears to be lost. I think he looks frail. I know he has a stutter but it’s more than that. There are a lot of videos of his gaffes and him doing things like reading the word “quote” from the teleprompter.

I am not sure, if Biden insists on running again, what choices the Democratic party has. I’m not sure how it works if they don’t want him to run but he insists.

My personal hope is that he says he’s not going to run again and then steps out of the way, making room for someone else but so far, he has been saying he is going to run again.

Do you think that Joe Biden has become a problem for the Democratic party?

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84 Answers

chyna's avatar

I do think he has become a problem. And it makes me sad because I voted for him last time. I think there should be age requirements, but then again, that would be against the discrimination law.
I would hope his wife and his advisors will talk him out of running again.

kritiper's avatar

No. Win or lose, young or old, I’m a team player and I will continue to vote for my team.

seawulf575's avatar

His age and his cognitive ability were questioned before the election. Yet the Hate Trump was enough to push it. Not to mention he chose Kamala as his VP…a candidate that couldn’t even garner 1% of the Democrats during the primary she was in. She is much a detriment to anything she is involved in as Biden is.

You can see the left turning against him. You can see all the usual suspects that alter stories to support the Dems suddenly running almost factual stories about Biden. Especially with the recent disclosure of his lack of control of Classified Materials. I suspect they want to drive him out of office, probably on the 25th amendment. They do NOT want him in another election.

NoMore's avatar

Not as much a problem as Trump has become for the Repubs. I’ll take what I can get, look on the bright side.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

Yes he is a problem, I don’t see how anyone can say the man is competent to lead with a straight face. Hillary was a problem too. Exhibit A: The election of Donald Trump. The plot twist is that Trump has been far more damaging to the republican party than any election loss to a democrat could have been. The last decade has been quite the comedy of errors, except it’s not funny.

gorillapaws's avatar

The Democratic Party is the problem. They’re so addicted to corporate donations that they’d rather the fucking psychopathic Republicans win than shift to the left and allow genuine progressives to win the day. And that’s why we’ve got a senile scumbag who sexually assaulted his staffer in office instead of a guy like Bernie. Had the DNC not jacked the primary against him (again), the Democrats would be well on their way to a 2nd term with a huge swell of popular support for progressive change in the legislature.

LadyMarissa's avatar

Biden has ALWAYS been a loyal Dem!!! Of course he says he’s going to run again. The Dems are NOT ready to start the next election yet as they have NO one to run at this point…hence, NO desire to go on the defensive. When the time comes, he will suddenly have a “good reason” to step away from politics be it his age, health, or lack of desire to continue on. The Dems will float out a few suggestion to see IF any of them take hold. I think I’m seeing Al Gore trying to position himself as a prospect, but it’s not obvious enough for anyone to pay attention just yet!!! Dr Jill might suddenly decide to try her hand at politics.

a senile scumbag who sexually assaulted his staffer It seems I remember that he kissed her on the TOP of her head & I do NOT consider that sexual assault; however, I DO consider “grabbing ANY woman I want by the pussy & having my way with her” as being a sexual assault. I had to take a shower after hearing that come out of his mouth!!!

Hillary was a problem too. Exhibit A: The election of Donald Trump. It seems that Hillary DID WIN the popular vote by 2–3 million votes, but she did the politically acceptable thing & ACCEPT that her opponent won the electoral college which meant he won by default. She did NOT try to start a RIOT & overrun the Capitol in order to go into office!!! She simply did the right thing & CONGRATULATE her opponent on his win & going back to her private life!!! Had I known in 2016 what I know now, I would have wasted my vote & voted for her.

I’m one of those nasty Independents that BOTH sides need to vote for their candidate. I’m willing to vote for pretty much any candidate the Reps put in EXCEPT old 45!!! They run him again & I AM going to vote for WHOEVER the Dems are running even IF it’s Commander or Champ!!!

RayaHope's avatar

Yes. My sources tell me if Biden runs, the democrats will lose 2024.

NoMore's avatar

Think I’ll go outside and play Russian Roulette. Can’t handle four more years of Rethuglicans calling the shots.

RayaHope's avatar

@NoMore NO! Don’t do that! I think they need to find someone else QUICK!

NoMore's avatar

Sanders 2024

RayaHope's avatar

^^^^^^^ SURE, I guess :)

NoMore's avatar

He da man!

smudges's avatar

^^ “Da man” is old!

chyna's avatar

Bernie is 81 years old. He will be 83 in 2 years. Though I like Bernie, we need a person in office that we don’t have to worry about their health. We all know that being president ages a person quickly. I don’t want his eventual death hastened by a term in office.
Just my opinion.

LostInParadise's avatar

Time for AOC! Definitely not too old, she will be just over the minimum age for president.

jca2's avatar

Today, Biden’s Chief of Staff announced that he is jumping ship:

https://www.aol.com/news/white-house-chief-staff-klain-211127613.html

RayaHope's avatar

@jca2 OMG, I think I like her, do you think she would have a chance?

jca2's avatar

@RayaHope I believe she is too young, according to law, to become President.

RayaHope's avatar

October 13, 2024 she’ll be 35. darn

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@RayaHope No. AOC while actually a sweetheart is, um.. completely unqualified IMO. I’ll just leave it at that.

RayaHope's avatar

@Blackwater_Park Could you give a reason why? Just wondering cause when I looked up her stats, she seems like the person I would love to run the country.

gorillapaws's avatar

@LadyMarissa “It seems I remember that he kissed her on the TOP of her head & I do NOT consider that sexual assault”

I’m talking about his young staffer that Joe Biden pressed up against a wall, digitally penetrated her vagina against her will, told her that she was nothing when she refused his assault and then fired her.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Blackwater_Park “AOC while actually a sweetheart is, um.. completely unqualified IMO”

I’ll take unqualified over corrupt and secretly sabotaging their own agenda and demoralizing their party’s constituents dude to intentional ineptitude any day of the week.

smudges's avatar

@gorillapaws Personally, I don’t believe Tara Reade. She has changed her story, and in 2012 filed for bankruptcy. Also, with the sort of man who does the things she’s claiming, there’s a lot more tales and rumors out there. Not just one.

gorillapaws's avatar

@smudges How did she manage to send her mother back in time to call in to Larry King then?

LostInParadise's avatar

@RayaHope , The inauguration date is what matters and by that time AOC will be 35, making her eligible to serve as president.

seawulf575's avatar

The Tara Reide story is typical of leftist journalism…how they approach stories on the left and the right. This story shows there is some evidence that it actually happened. There were people surrounding Tara at the time who told stories that match very well with her timeline of events. She told people about it when it happened. Additionally, there are numerous women that have worked with Biden who say he touched them in a way that made them uncomfortable. But when the accusation came out, none of the media outlets really did anything in the way of investigating it, though many discounted it out of hand.

I don’t know if it actually happened or not. The only two people who know for sure are Tara and Joe. But the media never even really looked into it. Contrast that with Christine Blasey-Ford speaking out against Brett Kavenaugh. The media STILL didn’t really investigate, but they definitely assigned truth to her story even though there was not a single corroborating story to back her up. Another example of how Biden gets a pass, I guess.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@RayaHope I’ll come right out and say it then. She is too inexperienced, young and naive to be the leader of the free world. We don’t want people either too young or too old. This is for someone in their prime, without strong ideology, insecurity or narcissism. People will call that ageism, I call it pragmatism. The last candidate we had that came close to this was Obama. IMO the left need to run someone like him again if they want to have a chance.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Blackwater_Park Obama? the guy who had a supermajority and gave us the Republican Plan for healthcare dreamed up by the Heritage foundation? Is it really surprising though since he took so much money from the health insurance industry? The guy who never got us out of Afghanistan after Bin Laden was killed? Didn’t raise the minimum wage? Didn’t legalize marijuana? Didn’t prosecute any of the assholes behind the 2008 crash. Wasn’t going to oppose the Dakota Access pipeline until it became politically untenable not to oppose it.

He’s the reason so many young folks became apathetic to the political process.

RayaHope's avatar

@Blackwater_Park I think your reasons to not run her would be my reasons TO run her! We don’t need corruption and cronyism running this country anymore.

seawulf575's avatar

@RayaHope You seem to think that because she is young AOC is not corrupt. The two are not necessarily separate. According to the FEC (Federal Elections Commission) in 2019 she raised almost $2,000,000 in campaign contributions. Only about $1500 of that came from people in her congressional district. So who is looking to put her into office and why? It obviously isn’t people in her district. So you have to wonder how a part time bartender can suddenly be worth $2M in contributions and where her loyalties lie.

Another thing to consider is her idea of the Green New Deal. There are things in her proposal that are unrealistic and actually harmful to our nation. I applaud the view of wanting to get away from fossil fuels. But you can’t put doing away with it in the next 10 years. It doesn’t work. She also had proposals that people should be given a living wage even if they are unwilling to work. All that does is incentivize people not working. You have to have people working to pay the taxes for the people that don’t want to work and if you guarantee paying for people that don’t want to work, what is the point behind working? Another problem with the GND is that it really would do nothing towards addressing climate change. The USA has been cutting greenhouse gas production year after year. The big hitters are nations like China or India. And the world treats China as a “developing nation” so they are not bound by any greenhouse gas reduction efforts AND we have to pay to help “develop” them.

But I will say that young people (such as yourself) can be very beneficial. But it starts with NOT blindly believing everything you hear and to do research for yourself. And part of doing research is to evaluate what are pipe dreams and what are actually achievable goals.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 She’s currently dealing with an Ethics case, too.

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 _“Only about $1500 of that came from people in her congressional district. So who is looking to put her into office and why?”

Me for one. I sent her money because I agree with her platform. She doesn’t take money from lobbyists or corporations or Super Pacs. Name a single fucking Republican that can say the same thing. Most of the Democratic Party can’t either. She’s one of the few congress people with financial loyalties only to the people.

As for the GND please explain how taxpayers subsidizing the fossil fuel industry and then paying for the costs for climate change in FEMA and agricultural and ecological collapses is more affordable or equitable to the American people? You want China to do a better job, so do I and everyone else I know. We don’t live in China. We can improve things here and work on technologies that CONSERVE our environment for future generations instead of slaughtering our golden geese in short-term thinking and transferring that wealth to a handful of wealthy donors that control our political landscape.

As for the ethics investigation, they’re mad because she wore a dress that said “Tax the Rich” to a fancy charity art event.

jca2's avatar

@gorillapaws I posted the link to the ethics investigation above your comment (while you were typing).

Locke's avatar

It seems like every couple of days there’s a new article that says “more classified documents found at Biden’s house”. How long does it take to search his house?

I think the Democratic party needs to find someone other than Biden. I don’t pay attention to party politics that closely, but it seems like there’s really no alternative at the moment. If 2024 is Biden v. Trump again, well, maybe I will actually not vote this time.

gorillapaws's avatar

@RayaHope Oh and when folks tell you that things like Medicare for All are “unrealistic,” Just remind them how our country has managed to produce trillions of dollars for pointless wars, tax cuts for billionaires, corporate welfare and bailouts, subsidies for fossil fuel industries, refusing to negotiate lower prices with big Pharma like they do with every other nation on Earth.

NoMore's avatar

Ditto @gorillapaws Which is why we go to an ER and pay 4,000 bucks to open your mouth and say ahhhh!

smudges's avatar

^^ I pay $75 and don’t know anyone who pays $4000. Just sayin’

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws so is it your belief that there were enough people outside of her district (she is a representative, not a senator) that donated $2M because they were that engaged in politics? Sorry, I’m throwing the bullshit flag on that one.

” She’s one of the few congress people with financial loyalties only to the people.” Except she got a large chunk of her donations from the PAC “Courage to Change”. Contributors include colleges and university, Apple Inc, Microsoft, Kaiser Permanente, Facebook, etc.

Trying to deflect from what I said by playing the “whatabout” game is also beneath you. At no time did I suggest ANY congressional entities were above corruption. Trying to spread the blame is just trying to shield the idea that AOC is guilty of the exact same things you don’t like about the rest. Also, trying to say “whatabout” for the screwed up way we subsidize things is trying to dodge the idea that her GND is impossible to do. You never once showed how any of the things she proposed were possible, you just tried deflecting.

seawulf575's avatar

As for Medicare for All, you might need to watch this. He spells out where we currently spend most of our money…spending that has us hitting the debt ceiling on a regular basis. Medicare is one of those things. In fact, Medicare and SSA and other guaranteed entitlements are THE leaders in how much we spend. 71% of our budget is just these things. Meanwhile the other 29% are discretionary spending, which accounts for all the subsidies you rant about, the bailouts, etc, and the military that you blame for all the wild costs. The military is only 13% of the budget, discretionary spending is 16%. Increasing Medicare expenditures will only drive the country into the ditch faster.

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 AOC has a crazy amount of grassroots support. $2M isn’t much when you’ve got 2.6 million followers on Twitter (this has since dropped a lot since people on the left have bailed on Twitter with Musk’s takeover). She had a ton of support on the left from groups like Justice Democrats and TYT.

As far as Courage for Change, this is their policy:

“Courage to Change will refuse all corporate PAC donations, as will our candidates.”

I’m trying to see how you’re claiming Apple, Microsoft, Kaiser, Facebook etc. are donors, unless you’re talking about working class Americans who happen to be employed by those companies. Is that what you’re calling corruption?

I’m not playing the what about game. If AOC legitimately is taking money from corporations in the way that all of those other dirtbags are, then I will levy equal condemnation against her. I suspect however that there’s some mud being stirred into the water to confuse people about the differences.

Medicare for All would save money and provide better care by eliminating middle men. As to the view that conveniently ignores revenue, percentages without values and context can be very misleading. The reason we have a budgetary crisis in the first place is that we’ve slashed revenues by cutting our top marginal tax rates from over 90% during the Republican Eisenhower’s administration to just 37% today. We can easily pay for things with wealth taxes for the extremely wealthy as low as 1–3% per year would be a game-changer. So would inheritance taxes on wealth over $20 million, and counting capital gains as income in amounts over something reasonable like $250k per year.

RayaHope's avatar

First @gorillapaws THANK YOU SO MUCH for donating to her!!! {{{HUGS}}} I wish I could vote bc I’d vote FOR her 100%! The more I know about her the more I love her and what she has done and what she stands for.

seawulf575's avatar

I love hearing how Medicare for All would actually save money. It is already killing our economy and there are about 64M people on it. You want to add 270M more people onto it and then say it is saving money. Leftist math just doesn’t work the same as righty math, does it?

seawulf575's avatar

Let me put that into more exacting terms: Medicare currently costs about $767B/year. or 13% of the federal spending. You are proposing we increase by a factor of 5 making it $3.5T per year or 65% of all federal spending. So which social programs are you going to gut to pay for it? I know you talk about taxing the rich but that won’t get you there. Remember, part of the spending still includes SSA, Federal retirements, and all the guaranteed social programs. That is still a huge chunk of the budget. What else are you going to cut? Gonna tell Congress they have no discretionary spending? That won’t pay for the increase you propose anyway.

When you start laying out the numbers, it doesn’t work. Platitudes about taxing the rich are lip service.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

” it doesn’t work. Platitudes about taxing the rich are lip service.”

But this report says just the opposite @seawulf575 = = >. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/forbes-400-pay-lower-tax-rates-many-ordinary-americans/

RayaHope's avatar

@seawulf575 Funny how all you “rightys” jump on entitlement programs as wasting money. Even though they are paid for by the people that are working and will eventually be able to use them at some point later in life. But seem to forget about all the millions and billions of dollars that are just given to millionaires and company CEO’s. My mom says that a bunch of multimillionaires that run the banks got bailed out years ago for gambling away the banks funds and almost caused a depression. They even got bonuses for doing so. Too bad you don’t know where the REAL money goes in this country.

RayaHope's avatar

My mom is pretty smart about this stuff! :)

seawulf575's avatar

@RayaHope I jump on entitlement programs for a great number of reasons. In this current discussion I am pointing out that some of them are extremely costly. And I certainly have not supported subsidies. That falls under the discretionary spending portion which is why all the bloated bills presented by the Democrats bother me so much. That is exactly what they are doing…giving money away, usually to their cronies.

The country is in real hot water with the amount of our debt. And most people, yourself included, have no idea where it is all spent. You mentioned the bank bailouts a few years ago. To be exact that was 2008. I disagreed with that. There were many things that went into that and some of it was governmental influence that created the problem in the first place. But no business is “too big to fail”. I was a firm supporter of letting them fail. I was also against Obama bailing out the auto industry. I was against the airline bailouts. I’m against farming subsidies…paying farmers to NOT grow something is idiotic. But all of these things fell under “discretionary” spending. They are not programs that are set up as guaranteed things. The programs that are guaranteed are in many ways more damaging than the onesy-twosy bills that our government wastes money on.

Here’s my view of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. Cut me a check for what I have paid into them over the years and I will go my way without ever taking a dime from them. After all, I was not given an option of paying into them or not…it was funding that was just taken from me. And I’m at an age where I could start taking those dimes. As for other “entitlements” I don’t use them. I have never been on welfare, never gotten food stamps, never had to have government housing, never got an Obama phone…none of it. I have managed my own life in such a way as to allow me to provide for myself and my family without any of them.

RayaHope's avatar

@seawulf575 Well then I have to ask you, what happens when you can no longer earn a wage or your health degrades and you can’t work at all? You may have something saved but how long will that last. You still have monthly bills and with no income or even failing health, how do you expect to keep going?

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 Bernie’s medicare for all would cost less overall than the current spending on healthcare. Instead of the money going to MIDDLEMEN that siphon a cut, the money goes to the government and they pay the private providers and hospitals. So yes, spending increases, but so does revenue because taxpayers no longer have to pay the private tax of health insurance and instead pay that money to the government and keep a bit for themselves. It’s a net savings of $2T over 10 years and would eliminate copays and deductibles, but don’t take my word for it, the conservative/libertarian think tank Mercatus ran the numbers and that’s what the result was.

Remember that the government is more efficient than private health insurance.

jca2's avatar

I’ve never been on welfare either, nor received food stamps, nor lived in subsidized housing, but it’s been nice for me to know that should I ever need such things, I CAN get them. I won’t be starving and begging in the streets, but instead, can apply for food stamps.s If I should ever become disabled, mentally or physicall incapacitated, I won’t be sleeping in a refrigerator box on the street or living on some relative’s couch, but I can be housed in a decent government apartment. The alternative would be many people begging in the street, hungry, sick, and not able to purchase even the most basic things for their needs.

The point is not that I have never taken a dime of a government “entitlement.” The point is that those things are a safety net, to catch me and everyone else, should we fall.

gorillapaws's avatar

@jca2 Imagine if we framed entitlements owed to veterans in the same way. “Those entitled soldiers mooching off of free healthcare…”

seawulf575's avatar

@RayaHope That’s just it. I have worked my whole adult life and always had retirement in mind. I will be set when I retire. The house and cars are paid off, the bills are very manageable with what I will be making (I’ll be giving myself a pay raise when I retire), etc. And if in my dotage I fall ill, I will suffer through and either recover or not. But either way my family will be taken care of.

Here’s a poser for you: what happens if the nation runs up a debt so high it can’t maintain it and has to default? Run that one by your mom and see what she says.

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws Did you really read that article you just cited or did you see that it said it would save money? That article says quite a few things that I am already saying. Let’s pick it apart, shall we?

Let’s start with the title of the program “Medicare for All”. It isn’t. Your own article states very clearly that the plan “for all” would only cover another 30M people. Add that to the 64M already on Medicare and you come up to 94M. There are 335M people in the country. So what about the other 240M people? Part of the basket of deplorables that aren’t worth anything to a Dem?

But it goes on. The article makes a really big production of showing that the math says that the plan would save $2.052T over the next 10 years. Then they get into the specifics. The specify that there are two parts to consider when looking at Medicare for all: National Health Expenditures and Federal Health Expenditures. National Health expenditures cover things like private industry contributions into healthcare, State Medicaid programs, and federal government contributions. Federal Health Expenditures are strictly the Federal Government. So the article says the $2.052T savings is on National Health Expenditures. But it goes on to say that the Federal Health Expenditures will go UP by $32.6T in the same 10 year period. That is an amount that completely exceeds what this country brings in so it will be more that is added to the debt.

There are a few other things about this to point out. The calculation assumes savings from state Medicaid programs which there might be. But as was already pointed out, there will still be a large number of people NOT covered by Medicare for All. So I imagine that will be not be that big a deal on savings. It also points out that the savings to the Federal Government is in two forms: administrative savings and massive increase in taxes. So really the big savings is to those ugly capitalists…the large companies that won’t have to pay for health insurance for their employees anymore. Talk about helping the rich! Meanwhile the cost they were paying will be passed on to their employees who now will have to deal with a massive increase in their federal income tax to offset some of the costs the Feds will incur. So the current tax rate on every tax payer will go up by a huge amount. Imagine you are single and making $60,000 per year. The current tax rate is $8,906.50 ($41,776 – $89,075: $4,807.50 + 22% of the amount over $41,775). Your taxes will go up an unspecified amount but you can bet it will be somewhere near the cost you are currently paying for premiums, deductables, etc. Figure it will go up another $5,000—$8,000 per year. Your taxes could effectively double. And that is just the Federal income tax. I would also suggest that it would go up even more since only about 47% of the people in the country work. So it would only be the working taxpayers that are covering the massive increase so they would be punished.

But it is the $32.6T that is what I was talking about. That will add to an already overbloated debt. And what happens when the debt gets too high? The nation can no longer pay the bill and it will default. When that happens the US will likely lose its status as the world’s reserve currency and you will see inflation on a scale you can’t even imagine. Printing more money will only make it worse at that point.

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws Yes, let’s look at what the “free healthcare” the veterans get. It leads to stories like
https://nypost.com/2021/09/10/vets-body-was-found-in-stairwell-of-va-facility-after-disappearing/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/vietnam-vet-found-covered-ants-nursing-home-bed/story?id=65560256

https://www.disabledveterans.org/2018/05/03/flies-va-operating-rooms-80-surgeries-canceled/

Not to mention the long waits to be seen for moderately important illnesses. You have obviously never used universal healthcare. I have. It is not up to the standard I have seen in the private sector because there is really no repercussions for doing mediocre work.

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 “Let’s start with the title of the program “Medicare for All”. It isn’t. Your own article states very clearly that the plan “for all” would only cover another 30M people. Add that to the 64M already on Medicare and you come up to 94M. There are 335M people in the country. So what about the other 240M people? Part of the basket of deplorables that aren’t worth anything to a Dem?”

I think there’s some confusion going on. It’s adding all people who currently have any health coverage and then 30M additional people to that. What Medicare for all means is that people like me who have a private health insurance plan from companies like Aetna, Cigna, Anthem, etc, will instead have Medicare. We’re going to be paying a pretty similar amount in additional taxes to what we’re currently paying in premiums, with the added benefit of no copays or deductibles.

Regarding the financing here’s one breakdown:

“Sanders’s vision for financing Medicare-for-all includes raising employer-side payroll taxes by 7.5 percentage points in order to raise roughly $3.9 trillion over 10 years.

On average, this is less than what employers are currently spending on premium contributions for their employees, so workers and employers should generally come out ahead under this system. But those broad averages mask a wide range of impacts.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, the average employer contribution for a single person’s health insurance in 2016 was $5,946. Sanders’s employer-side payroll tax would be less than that for workers earning below $80,000 a year but higher for more affluent workers. For family coverage, the average employer contribution was $14,561 which would make the cutoff point about $194,000 in household income.

On the other hand, lower income households, who currently don’t get employer-sponsored health insurance, could find themselves getting very robust coverage in exchange for a very modest tax increase. Some low-income families are already getting free insurance from the government through Medicaid — those families might end up seeing a small reduction in take-home pay in order to swap one government insurance plan for another.

Of course, even families whose take-home pay diminished somewhat due to Sanders’s payroll tax would reap benefits in the form of eliminating co-payments and deductibles. The point is that while the structure of Sanders’s plan is broadly progressive and broadly beneficial to most households, the exact calculus of who ends up ahead and who does not hinges on a complicated set of factors.” (Source)

We have plenty of waits in our current system, and I’ve got plenty of horror stories with regards to private insurers from my time as an admin of a private surgical practice, including one insurer that wanted us to do surgery that involved inserting a catheter into a patient’s vein and heating it up to just below boiling without anesthesia to save them about a thousand bucks. Or patients who submit for pre-approval for procedures, get approved. have the surgery and then are denied coverage retroactively and are stuck with huge bills (this is a common practice).The US consistently ranks way below universal healthcare systems globally and we pay the most per capita.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

But @gorillapaws the conservative view is people that don’t have health care insurance on their own or through their work should go off and quietly die, than think they should have some kind of government funded health care coverage.
The number one cause of bankruptcies in the states is medical bills, and this for the so called greatest country in the world?

Blackwater_Park's avatar

Healthcare is something that neither side really gets right IMO. Status quo here won’t cut it. We should not keep it the same. @SQUEEKY2 I’m conservative for the most part and that’s not how I or other conservatives think at all. They push back on the “just pay for it” mentality the left seems to have. Most conservatives (not on TV) want affordable healthcare too, they just want to take steps to reduce the general cost of it. Overall though, the right get tangled up in their own “thou shall not mandate” politics and won’t follow through with the legislation that will be required to bring healthcare cost down in way that won’t burden the tax payers. There is a lot of propaganda being shoveled into right wing politics from the health insurance and pharma industry to demonize healthcare reform. Most of us see it though.

seawulf575's avatar

@Blackwater_Park Now, now. You know that @SQUEEKY2 knows more about how conservatives think than they do themselves.

This conservative sees a very simple start to solving the healthcare dilemma that neither side really wants to look at. It involves actually doing the deep-dive research to figure out why costs are so high. You can’t hope to solve a problem unless you understand it. Throwing more money at it blindly or taxing the crap out of everyone so we can give “free” stuff is not the answer.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@seawulf575 Yep, that’s the general consensus of conservatives I know. It’s not so deep though, it’s greed. Insurance companies are parasitic, pharma is corrupt and greedy, corrupt politicians keep it going. I’m about to let out my left wing side a little and say that this is an industry that should be treated like infrastructure.

seawulf575's avatar

@Blackwater_Park I’m a firm believer that you don’t fix problems by band-aiding them. Turn it into infrastructure and you are still dealing with corrupt politicians, pharma and insurance companies. Greed will continue, but you will put it fully into the hands of the government. We all know how well that works.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Pharna and insurance companies WOULD BE GONE ! !

. . .and corrupt GOP would still have their hands out for money (ask Trump) ! !

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie When I saw you were crafting a response, how did I know it would include a slam on the GOP and Trump? You are too predictable! Here’s a clue for you…the Dems are just as bad.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@seawulf575 Infrastructure is bound by strict regulation that’s not so easy to circumvent. if infrastructure is held privately you have issues. Always. Businesses can fail, and often do. It would be the exception when they don’t. We can’t allow infrastructure to fail, that’s the difference. For example: ENRON. This is something the right wing gets wrong. A federally owned corporation that is fed and serviced by private companies but under strict observance by regulating bodies like a power company would be the way to go IMO.

seawulf575's avatar

@Blackwater_Park except the infrastructure in our country is in horrible condition.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Then in your conservative excellence do something that EVERYONE can afford,in the mean time lower income people continue to go bankrupt and die because of their health care costs.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I’m sure that Trump has his hand out with STOP THE STEAL ! !

$50 to $1000 a month; not a political donation so it is for anything including BIMBOS for Trump !

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@seawulf575 Is infrastructure in such poor shape because the right refuse to fund anything that doesn’t benefit the top 1%?

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@seawulf575 It’s really not, there are problems sure, but all in all, it’s in pretty good shape.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

But can you come up with an affordable health care act ,that EVERYONE can afford regardless of income?
Say in the next five years?
Or are you conservatives fine with more and more people facing a life time of financial ruin because they or a loved one got hurt or ill and and required medical help?

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Apparently no one can by guessing what might work. It hasn’t been done yet. Even places that have universal healthcare have issues with quality and performance. In GB for instance, most people have to buy “supplemental” insurance to pay for things they can’t get through the normal “universal” coverage. Or at least it allows them to get it before it is too late. But that is extra cost that many can’t afford. Even in some place like Sweden, they pay a high tax rate for universal healthcare, but contrary to what the US keeps proposing and Canada implements, the healthcare isn’t centralized. It is not controlled by the federal government. The state and local governments administer their own healthcare with the feds only giving them some money to help. But as of 2010 they offered private insurance which helps pay for things they can’t get or that they would have to wait to get.

longgone's avatar

^ Why do the labels matter? Don’t call it “centralized healthcare”, then, but how about just picking a plan that doesn’t bankrupt sick people? Pick a country with a sane system, and adopt that. It wont be perfect, but it will be better.

You know how Germans are always angry and love to complain? It’s a stereotype, but there’s some truth to it. And yet, I have never heard anyone here complain about the healthcare system. About doctors or wait times at the doctor’s office, certainly. But never about the system as a whole.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Cherry pick a few countries that have universal health care and take what works the best for them.
The Canadian health care system is far from perfect,and has many flaws but will take it every time over what you Yankees have.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 and yet so many of your compatriots don’t. They cross the border to get treatment in the Yankees healthcare system all the time. Why is that?

seawulf575's avatar

@longgone In this case the label matters. Because how far removed the decison makers are from the end user matters. In the US they are proposing all the time that we have the federal government control all healthcare. In Sweden, they don’t. They have more localized governments controlling it. That way if there are problems in a particular area, it is easier to influence the decision makers to affect change.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@seawulf575 You know why,with a universal health care system there can be long waits for certain operations and wealthy Canadians choose to bypass those wait lines and pay to get it done in the states.
BUT the Canadians that can’t afford to go state side will still get it done in Canada and not face a lifetime of financial ruin for doing so.
Look you huffy little fright winger I never said the US medical system sucks, what sucks is millions of your citizens can not afford to access it NOW that sucks.
Now in a country as great as yours shouldn’t all it citizens have access to medical help with out facing a lifetime of financial ruin?

jca2's avatar

I’ve heard of people here that have medical insurance, which is supposedly good medical insurance, but they have a 6k deductible. How someone of average means could afford a 6k deductible is beyond me. With that type of setup, the person would probably hesitate to go to the doctor at all, since the first 6k is out of pocket, and so what good is health insurance if the person isn’t going to get their medical needs met?

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 And my answer remains the same. You can’t fix something until you fully understand all the problems with it. And that requires an honest discussion, free from any corruption and influence. If the elected leaders actually were doing their job of serving the people, this sort of discussion could happen. But you know and I know that doesn’t happen. They are too busy getting kickbacks from different influence peddlers to care about the people.

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