Does Biden's trip to Ukraine send a bad message?

I’ll just correct one of your many errors and not wait around for a response. Mike DeWine, the governor of Ohio, initially told Biden that FEMA and the EPA were not needed to help out. Then he changed his mind.

Oh – and another thing, I don’t think Biden’s trip to Ukraine sends a bad message at all. It, let me see how to put this, says we are standing with an ally that is fighting tooth and nail against an aggressive invader.

I despise Biden, but the Ukraine war is way more important than anything else at this point. And if Trump and his pal’s hadn’t scrapped the advanced break requirements for trains there probably wouldn’t be a disaster in Ohio to worry about—you know because maybe deregulation ends up ruining lives, destroying land and costing everyone a bunch of money?

We don’t want Ukraine to fall and we’re sending a message to the world.

If Ukraine falls, Putin will go for Poland next, and he won’t stop. Do we want that?

At least it is not as bad as him defending the brutal dictator Kim Jong Un after he launched an ICBM in Japan’s direction.

Are you really that dense??? We aren’t standing up for Ukraine as much as we are STANDING AGAINST Russia!!! Every time Biden tries to do something for the citizens of the US, the maga maniacs work extremely hard to block it!!! We wouldn’t have a country to defend IF we had closed our borders from the very beginning. ONLY the native Americans were born inside our borders. The rest of our families (including yours) crossed a border somewhere on their way in!!!

No, it doesn’t send a bad message.

There’s no Russian military invasion on the southern border of the USA. The southern border does not need more funding.

And Biden offered whatever help Ohio needed. The Republican Ohio governor declined Federal assistance, to provide a speck of pretext for Republican propaganda that Biden was somehow neglecting Ohio, which you seem to have swallowed.

WOW really? Forget about the Middle East already? Biden’s trip there is a God send! Make a stand again Trumps buddy Putin. I can’t believe Trump has the audacity to bring his fat ass to Ohio NOW after he practically derailed the train himself. He should be on his way to prison. And Mike DeWine Is about as incompetent as they come. But for some reason Ohioans seem to like voting incumbents that are clueless to what’s really needed there.

No.

NO

What bad message? That we are against Putin sending in soldiers to rape, kill, torture, freeze, and starve, Ukrainian citizens, to take Ukrainian land? Are you ok with what Putin is doing? Are you saying you just don’t like the timing? He might have been planning this since before the Ohio tragedy. Going to Ukraine doesn’t prevent Biden from addressing immigration at our border. I don’t see how those things are competing.

In Ukraine people are being massacred. I think the US once again looks strong and taking a leadership role among the allied countries. That seems like a good thing to me.

My only worry is Putin ramping up WW3. Like Pelosi in Taiwan a bit ago. In a way, as an American, I enjoy thumbing our nose blatantly in defense of the underdog. On the other hand, I wouldn’t try to escalate a situation where we could lose.

I keep seeing Libertarian posts such as ‘Ukraine is not the 51st state.’ So there is definately a portion of Americans who are more ‘America first’ and think we’ve done enough over there and other countries should take the lead.

@KNOWITALL I have very mixed feelings. Part of me wanted US and other allied forces to start lining up on Ukraine’s border as soon as Russia started doing it. I can see how that could backfire though.

Then, when Russia went in, I was baffled by the US only providing defensive weaponry, I felt maybe we should arm with offensive weapons so the Ukrainian soldiers have a better chance. The argument was similar to what you stated, worrying about starting WWIII. Biden the past year basically held back because of that worry from what I can tell.

I can’t help wondering what if allied Europe had sent a lot of forces to fight off Russia before Russia even came in. I think that would have been dramatic and effective. The problem is oil of course. Germany was still buying oil from Russia. I don’t understand why that couldn’t have been overcome faster. I’m not sure what the military is like in other European countries.

@JLeslie ”...I can’t help wondering what if allied Europe had sent a lot of forces to fight off Russia before Russia even came in. I think that would have been dramatic and effective.”

That may be true, but what would have then happened is either it would have escalated to WW3 or Putin would have retreated, but still had most of his forces from which he could create wedges in NATO, plot and scheme with China, South America, India, Pakistan, Middle East, Baltic countries etc.

The slow approach is almost certainly smarter—like boiling the frog. Putin’s fully committed and can’t back out, but he can’t win either. When this is over, There will be zero appetite in Russia and zero ability for imperialist USSR 2.0 ambitions.

@gorillapaws I basically agree with what you wrote, but it gnaws at me that possibly Putin could have saved face before anyone fired a shot if he saw troops lining up on the Ukraine side. He could have said, “we are just protecting our border, we weren’t going to attack, look at these ridiculous countries.” He probably wouldn’t have taken that opportunity though. He’s too driven.

Plus, he could have twisted it to make Ukraine and the allies into the aggressor. That’s the biggest negative I can see in regards to the messaging with my plan, setting aside the biggest real negative is people losing life and limb and all other suffering we are seeing.

Biden’s trip to Ukraine sends a very good message. It shows Ukraine, NATO, Putin and the world that the United States still stands squarely on the side of truth against falsehood, freedom against totalitarianism and civilisation against barbarism. The East Palestine train derailment and its aftermath is in a quite different category and to compare the two shows how hopelessly out of touch with reality you are(or pretend to be).

@flutherother The point behind the border issue and the East Palestine train derailment is that both of those actually impact US Citizens. If you really believe that Biden showing up tells the world that we support Ukraine more than the billions of dollars we have given I believe it is you that is hopelessly out of touch with reality.

@gorillapaws In your rush to blame Trump, did you actually read the link you posted about Trump rolling back the Obama era rules? Let me help you since it is right at the beginning of the article: Even if this safety rule had still been in effect, it would not have applied to the Norfolk Southern train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, because it was not categorized as a high-hazard cargo train.

Your argument is moot.

@jca2 Yes, letting everyone know we support Ukraine is important, but apparently domestic issues aren’t. After all, it’s only Vinyl Chloride impacting people, livestock and ground water. Not important. And illegal entry into our country has hit record highs but hey, that isn’t important either.

@seawulf575 Who is welcoming all those illegals into our country?

@Dig_Dug That is an interesting question. It isn’t the people living on the border. They have to deal with people stealing their stuff, drug dealers threatening them and all sorts of other things. If they are intercepted, they are met by Border Control but they are told to release them. If they are sent to “sanctuary cities” which are always run by Democrats, they are initially welcomed until it becomes inconvenient for them. I guess it is Biden and Harris welcoming them since it is their policies that have led to the massive influx.

@seawulf575 If you want to criticize Obama and the Democrats for their train brakes not being sufficiently restrictive, I’m happy to join you. That said, Trump did nuke the regs designed to require some trains carrying hazardous materials to be equipped with modern brakes.

The money spent on Ukraine is a drop in the bucket, far as overall spending goes.
Sure, more money should be spent on domestic issues. Especially healthcare.
But Biden going to Ukraine doesn’t send a bad message at all.
In fact, until Trump and his supporters go to prison for their Election Lies, there are no relative bad signals. Except for our lack of progress in prosecuting the traitors.

@gorillapaws Trump rolled back the regs Obama put in place. It has NOTHING to do with East Palestine Ohio as you stated. Your own citation shows that.

@Kraigmo the article I just cited shows that as of October, we had spent $27B on Ukraine. The omnibus spending package they just past late last year added another $45B to that. Now I don’t know where you come from, but $72B is not a drop in the bucket. And with so many other domestic issues present that could use some of that money, and now with Joe going over there instead of to somewhere in the states that would show he cared about us, I believe there is a BIG message being sent and it isn’t good. It says Joe is more concerned about Ukraine that anything in our country.

@seawulf575 the amount of tax breaks we give billionaires adds up to trillions. Furthermore the Pentagon as a whole spends 70 times the amount per year we’ve spent on Ukraine.
I have my doubts about the value of our defense of Ukraine, myself. What if it’s a lost cause? What if Russia’s takeover is inevitable and we’re only delaying it by throwing billions of dollars away? I also never really liked Ukraine to begin with due to its Nazi problem. (But then again, they did elect a Jewish president, so the Nazi problem isn’t as deep as one might fear).
America wastes money all over the place on both liberal causes and conservative causes, as well as plain old corruption, and our longstanding protection of the filthiest richest people there are.
We also spend a lot of money protecting Israel, and they have universal health care. So basically we are paying for the healthcare of Israelis while ignoring the healthcare of Americans. So I do agree with the validity of your point.
But the focus on Ukraine is really out of context, if one is worried about overall waste.

@seawulf575 ” It has NOTHING to do with East Palestine Ohio as you stated.”

But it’s by happenstance. That train could just as easily been loaded with flammable material to which the regulations would have applied. You’re dodging the main idea that Trump has made accidents like this more likely through deregulation. Privatize the profits, socialize the losses…

For extreme conservatives anything Biden does sends a bad message in their minds.

“Biden ate Corn Flakes today!” “Son of a Bitch!”..grummmmbbllee

@Kraigmo The point is that we spend $70B on another country and Biden goes over there to say hi while there are people suffering here in the US and he does nothing. The money which is about 10x more than any other country and probably close to 5x more that ALL other countries combined speaks plenty loud that we are in their corner. Biden could be doing things here in the US…you know…for the people that supposedly elected him

@gorillapaws Really?!? You claimed E Palestine was because Trump rolled back the Obama regulations. That is a false statement. You are doing what every leftist outlet does…create a lying narrative to try deflecting from Biden and the Dems and to blame Trump. Your claim was false. Now you are saying it was happenstance. Show me where trains actually derailed that were because that rule was repealed. That would, of course, be for a different thread because your answer was pure deflection.

@seawulf575 Does loosening the restrictions on train brakes make it more likely or less likely like that there will be an increase in train derailments? There is only one correct answer to this question and I can’t wait to hear your response.

@gorillapaws And if Trump and his pal’s hadn’t scrapped the advanced break requirements for trains there probably wouldn’t be a disaster in Ohio to worry about You said this,. Part of this statement was a link to a site that said specifically that this had nothing to do with East Palestine. You were fear-mongering trying to blame Trump and deflect for Biden. You. Were. Wrong. You can say it….except you really can’t. Now you are trying to address the regulations you cited as if they are still pertinent to East Palestine….deflect, deflect, deflect. I even challenged you to show me the train derailments that happened because those regulations were removed and you couldn’t do it. So now you are down to speculation. Here’s an answer for you: Since nothing has happened since Trump rolled them back, I’m gonna say your entire speculation is foolish efforts to refuse to say you were wrong.

@seawulf575 Bravo. The ability to shape the laws of physics and engineering to maintain your preconceived ideology is truly a thing to marvel at. So weakening the requirements for train brakes has an inconclusive effect on the likelihood of future train derailments, because the one that did derail without the improved brakes was carrying hazardous chemicals and not flammable materials to which the requirement would have applied. We cannot be certain if there is an increased likelihood or not of future train derailments as such…

It’s like your brain has certain fundamental axioms that are unquestionable and then you have to shape reality to them: “Trump is infallible.” “Deregulation is always good,” “Biden sucks.”

@seawulf575 Would that derailment have happened if those regulations were in place?

@SQUEEKY2 Look at the citation @gorillapaws gave. While he was trying to blame Trump, he showed that No, that derailment had nothing to do with those regulations being removed.

@gorillapaws Bravo. You have proven you can’t admit when you are wrong.

Ok this is what I guess you are claiming victory on. (Even if this safety rule had still been in effect, it would not have applied to the Norfolk Southern train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, because it was not categorized as a high-hazard cargo train.)
Not categorized as a high hazard??
Because of the derailment didn’t it spew toxic smoke, resulting in a area being evacuated ?
Sounds hazardous to me.
also you refuse to admit if the new braking system was on that train it might have indeed prevented the derailment,but since it was deemed a non hazardous train it didn’t require the upgraded brakes.
It still derailed caught fire and put tons of toxic smoke into the area , resulting in evacuations but don’t worry it wasn’t hazardous.
Boy am I ever glad the rail company saved money by not having to upgrade to the new brakes,just wonder how much this derailment is going to cost them.

@SQUEEKY2 The regulation that @gorillapaws is trying to push as being “the cause” and why Trump is the guilty party is what made it inapplicable to this particular derailment. That and, well, it was a mechanical failure (wheel overheated) and nothing to do with the braking system. You know…facts. You are focusing on “it was hazardous material so the regulation would have helped!!!” Except it wouldn’t. The train was not long enough. The hazardous material did not rise to the level of “highly hazardous” outlined in the regulation. There were several aspects of this train and this accident that would have excluded it from being covered whether Biden, Trump or Obama were in office.

What failed in East Palestine was mechanical. What failed in East Palestine was that Biden didn’t care. Yes, I know, DeWine said initially that he didn’t need FEMA help. But that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have sent evaluators and geared up for contingencies in case they were needed. It doesn’t mean that Biden couldn’t have shown up to show his support for Americans.

Blaming Biden after the fact is not logical ! ! Just saying . . . .

How did he cause the accident by not sending in the Feds after the accident; when they were not welcome ?

Deregulating safety standards on anything especially industrial equipment is foolish and puts the public in danger,and for what ,oh I know a better bottom line who cares about the public, profits are the only thing that matters.

@Tropical_Willie As usual you can’t keep up. I’ve never blamed the train derailment in East Palestine on Biden. But he could have gone to see the disaster and to help reassure the people that he was there for them. But he isn’t.

@SQUEEKY2 I will lay the same challenge on you that I laid on @gorillapaws since the two of you are trying so desperately to insulate Biden and derail this thread. Show me the train derailment that has happened that the aforementioned safety regulation would have stopped. You know, the one you two are so desperate to create? You are creating a straw derailment. Kinda like a strawman.

@seawulf575 Let me help you with basic probability. A bad thing doesn’t have to occur for the ODDS OF IT HAPPENING TO INCREASE. For example, if someone is playing Russian Roulette and instead of 1 bullet in a 6 shooter, someone adds a 2nd bullet. We would say the odds increased, EVEN IF each person took a turn and didn’t die. You can’t look back on the fact that neither person died as evidence that the odds didn’t increase… because that’s stupid.

Trump made it MORE LIKELY that trains will derail in this country. It’s a fact. Biden could have reversed/expanded on Trump’s ruling but failed to do so. He doesn’t get a pass either. But the notion that Ukraine is somehow less important than parading around for the cameras in East Palestine is laughable.

^^^ 10 GAs ^^^

@seawulf575 Like @gorillapaws pointed out I am not trying to insulate Biden from anything deregulating safety measures on trains is fucking dumb I know you will point out it was an over heated wheel bearing that caused this, and this train didn’t meet the high hazard requirements.
also points out a lack of safety maintenance on the railways behalf.

@gorillapaws Let me help you with a basic communication ideal. You were wrong. You said Trump rolling back the Obama regulations is what caused the East Palestine event. That was a deflection and insulation for Biden not going to the scene of the catastrophe. I pointed out to you, with your own citation, that what you said was bullshit. Since then you have tried further to move away from Biden giving a bad message to further try making it about something you don’t like about Trump. I even played your game a bit and challenged you to show me the train derailment that rolling back those regulations caused. And you couldn’t even do that. You started into strawman arguments. Pathetic. If you want to talk about those regulations then open your own thread. Stop trying to deflect from my question.

@SQUEEKY2 The question was whether Biden is sending a bad message by going to Ukraine and not East Palestine or really even doing something about the southern border. You following @gorillapaws down the rabbit hole of a strawman argument is nothing BUT deflection and insulation for Biden.

Wulfie,you have been super guilty of derailing a question to bolster your conservative views in the past.
But your right it wasn’t the question, Ohio is a Red state that first said it didn’t want his help but then changed their minds(shock) ,my opinion he most definitely should have done the Ukraine thing, but he also should have let the people of Ohio know he (the federal government) was there for them during this crisis .
Did that answer the question for you?

@seawulf575 one that comes right to mind was my question about ,If found guilty of any of his crimes would Trump actually face jail time due to his secret service protection, and you went off the rails almost instantly with that question saying his innocent (Trump could never be guilty of anything in your eyes) but it didn’t answer the question ,I will say you did answer the question much later in the thread.
And I did thank you for it when you finally did.

@SQUEEKY2 Whether they are asking for help or not is insignificant. Whether they are a red state or not is insignificant. Biden showing up shows he is there for the people if they need him. From a political aspect, it would even be politically advantageous for him to show up when the governor is saying he doesn’t need help. It would put political pressure on the governor.

As for the question you say I derailed, the question as I saw it was based on bogus assumptions. It assumed that just because someone had accused Trump of something that it was automatic that he had done it. I pointed out that flaw in the question. I did, however, state that I was a firm believer in one set of laws for all, not one for you and I and one for politicians. But we all know that isn’t reality too. The derailment started when everyone commenced to try convincing me that Russia Collusion was real, that J6 was insurrection, that he really did everything the whistleblower claimed on the phone call with Zelenskyy, etc. Again, crimes they swore he committed and yet….well…not backed up by facts. My first answer pointed out the flaw in your question and still gave an answer to it. You and the rest derailed it trying to shout me down.

@seawulf575 Whether Biden goes to the scene is ENTIRELY FUCKING IRRELEVANT to anything. It’s political theatre and optics for the media. It’s a show, a facade, it means nothing at all. Biden going to an active war zone actually did mean something, and it was the more important trip. Potential thermonuclear war is more important than train derailment. That should be entirely obvious, but since obvious things seem to need explanation, here’s why that’s true. Thermonuclear war means that there’s a disaster everywhere, including East Palestine.

I care about regulations that make things like this less likely and also holding companies accountable for the costs they create for taxpayers, especially when they’ve ignored complaints from their employees that their practices are unsafe. Disasters shouldn’t be cheaper for a train company than operating safely/correctly. Disasters like this should be so financially painful that shareholders and the board would demand CEOs invent even more stringent safety protocols and would demand the resignation of a CEO buying back stocks while the safety was so poor.

@gorillapaws Watch your language! You’re NOT using it enough!

@gorillapaws Going to the war zone is equally political theater and optics for the media. The difference is that he is performing for non-Americans in Ukraine. He is serving no useful function there. He is not a diplomat, he is not negotiating, he is not trying to get the two sides to sit down together to end it. He is there as window dressing.

And still you try doubling down that the regulation that was rolled back somehow contributed. YOU WERE WRONG! YOUR OWN CITATION SAID SO!!! Just admit you were wrong!

No – - still.

@seawulf575 you derailed (pardon the PUN) your own question !

@seawulf575 “Going to the war zone is equally political theater and optics for the media.”

Bullshit. This was the first time in US history where a sitting president traveled to an active war zone without US military ;presence in the country. If you don’t think that sends a crystal clear message to Russia, Ukraine, NATO allies, China, India, the Middle East and the citizens of the US then you obviously haven’t thought about It enough.

”...he is not trying to get the two sides to sit down together to end it.”

Nor should he be! Any ceasefire right now is simply a recipe for future conflict.

It is always funny to see this “two sides” nonsense, when one of the sides literally rapes toddlers, and ties mines to dead mothers and her still alive child, only for it to explode when someone tries to rescue them.

@ragingloli Well thanks for that…I just died inside. At least my day will be much better now, no matter what happens…

@gorillapaws sigh Okay, I’ll lead you to the answer you won’t want to admit. Let’s start with the fake news that he was in an active war zone. He went to Kyiv. Probably the closest Ukrainian city at the front was Bakhmut. That is some 360 miles away. To put that in perspective, if the war front was in NYC, would you say that visiting Charleston WV was considered the active war zone? Not likely. So the claim he was in an active war zone is exaggeration at the very least. More like Political theater. “SEE! Joe Biden was in an active war zone! Whatta guy!”. But fools on the left eat it up. Point number one that it was political theater and media optics. On to number 2. So what did Biden accomplish by going to Ukraine? He didn’t fight. He didn’t lead forces into battle. He didn’t address our troops (since there aren’t many there; there are some despite your claims). He was there for 5 hours and managed to speak with Zelenskyy. Since Zelenskyy was in Kyiv you should admit it wasn’t a war zone. He smartly exited war zones as they came to where he was. He was out there boldly which tells you he had nothing to fear…not a war zone. So what was the point of the visit? To send a message? That is political posturing and media optics by definition.

So he was there for political posturing and media optics. Plain and simply. Once again you are wrong. Not that I expect you to admit it. Though I have to admit you didn’t arm me with a citation that proved your error in the first paragraph.

As for not trying to get the two sides to sit down, what you are saying is that war is preferable to peace. And his actions could be seen as antagonistic which would be urging further and future conflicts up to and including WW3.

I don’t understand the logic of asking a question and then arguing with everyone for their answers, which are their opinions and are what was asked for.

^^^ THIS ^^^ I don’t mind some clarification with new developments but this is just going crazy..

@jca2 100 GAs . . . Someone Thou doth protest too much !

Good grief @seawulf575 the entire country of Ukraine is a war zone,where he was wasn’t under fire at that moment, and Biden was there to show the world your country stands with Ukraine.
Maybe he should have paid a visit to Ohio to show those people the federal government stands with them as well.
Does his visit paint a bad message, well only to extreme fright wingers the rest of us don’t think so.

@jca2 some of the answers are not answers, they are deflections. And discussion and debate are not bad things. Differing opinions allow us to talk through them.