Social Question

jca2's avatar

Are we headed toward a country where it will be accepted to not serve LGBTQ+ people?

Asked by jca2 (16826points) June 30th, 2023

The Supreme Court just handed down a decision where a wedding website designer didn’t want to design sites for same sex couples. The Court decided that it’s now legal not to serve them.

Are we headed down this slippery slope, where people and companies can discriminate legally against LGBTQ? What next?

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33 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

You are heading towards a country where being LGBTQ+ is going to be criminalised again.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I don’t think so. The good people will keep marching.k

Blackberry's avatar

Private business is private business. US only legalized being black/lgbt because it’s better to control instead of pull another trail of tears.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Probably, although this suit was about a hypothetical situation.

Imagine a bakery shop ran by a SS couple and a straight person wants Fags Suck on a cake. Should they be forced to take that business?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna68629

NoMore's avatar

Money is green. Regardless of the source. Go ahead and refuse to serve sparky. I’ll take their money. No probleemo.

SavoirFaire's avatar

We’re certainly on the path to it being legal to discriminate against LGBTQ people in all areas, and possibly against other groups as well. But there’s a difference between something being legal and something being accepted, and I think that the general direction of this country—especially among the younger generations—is openness towards difference and repudiation of bigotry. It’s slow progress, and it’s made slower by decisions like these. But it can’t be stopped no matter how much some may wish otherwise.

@KNOWITALL “Probably, although this suit was about a hypothetical situation.”

But that’s part of the problem. It is explicitly unconstitutional for the court to rule on hypotheticals. Judicial intervention—especially at the Supreme Court level—is supposed to only happen in response to an actual injury that can be redressed by a specific ruling. These requirements for standing have been upheld by the US Supreme Court many times, including in landmark cases such as Muskrat v. United States (1911), Warth v. Seldin (1975), and Lujan v. Defenders of Wildlife (1992). They have also been used by the current Supreme Court to dismiss cases as recently as seven days ago in United States v. Texas (2023).

Not only was there no standing in this case (303 Creative LLC v. Elenis), but the plaintiffs seem to have lied to the court when their standing was challenged. They invented a fake request for a same-sex marriage website, but listed the information of a straight man who has been married to a woman since before Lorie Smith ever filed her lawsuit. (Why her lawyers didn’t redact his information in their brief is unknown, but their failure to do so made it possible to expose this deception.)

To be clear, I don’t entirely disagree with the decision. Colorado’s public accommodations law is clearly overbroad, and I think there are some legitimate claims to be made in favor of the rights of privately held businesses. But there are better cases for adjudicating these issues that don’t require violating 250+ years of practice, 100+ years of explicit precedent, and rewarding plaintiffs for perjury.

“Imagine a bakery shop ran by a SS couple and a straight person wants Fags Suck on a cake. Should they be forced to take that business?”

Same-sex couples already have the right to reject that business because bigots are not a protected class under public accommodation laws. And this, I think, is one of the more subtle legal issues that is missed in the general discussion around this case. Anyone can discriminate against anyone if their business is not a place of public accommodation. Lorie Smith could have kept her business private, but she chose otherwise. Presumably, she did this because she wanted the benefits that are available in her state under its public accommodations law—benefits that are given in exchange for not discriminating. But she wanted the benefits without having to adhere to the rules governing those benefits, so she sued.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@SavoirFaire Fair enough, great detailed post.

janbb's avatar

Sure looks like it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Look, the way I see it the dude loses their business. $$$ But someone out there will pick it up. He’s the real loser.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

Private businesses have the right to refuse service. That’s all this is really about. This is in the same vein of you have the right to free speech but no rights to be shielded from the consequences.

janbb's avatar

@Blackwater_Park And that was the reason private businesses refused to serve Blacks which was overturned by law.

jca2's avatar

@Blackwater_Park @janbb‘s point is the point I’m trying to make. Isn’t it a slippery slope?

Dutchess_III's avatar

I guess they have yet to add LGBTQ+ to the Federal law.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@jca2 It is, but a little different these days. Back then, it often hurt businesses to serve African Americans. It took the Gov’t to step in and make that change.
From what I understand this cake business was a religious belief thing right? If I wanted a black cake in the shape of a pentagram that said hail Satan, I think I’d be refused service too. Someone will make that cake for me and I’ll just take my business there. That’s what is different now.

jca2's avatar

@Blackwater_Park It’s not a cake thing – that’s old news. It’s a website the website creator presented a hypothetical situation where she didn’t want to make a wedding site for a same sex couple. That’s what @SavoirFaire was referring to when he and @KNOWITALL said it was a hypothetical situation.

kritiper's avatar

This case you mentioned was about someone who would be writing something for gay people, but not serving them like in a restaurant. Big difference!

Jeruba's avatar

I just don’t understand why any vendor or service provider should care what’s in their customers’ pants and who they share it with. They want to buy your cake or your website? Let ‘em!

What I don’t get is why anybody thinks they have the right to trample on the lives of others who are just as legitimately deserving as they are.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Jeruba
self-right·eous – - “having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior.”

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Blackwater_Park “Private businesses have the right to refuse service. That’s all this is really about.”

303 Creative is not a private business. As I noted above: Lorie Smith could have kept her business private, but she chose otherwise.

“This is in the same vein of you have the right to free speech but no rights to be shielded from the consequences.”

Not really. Leaving aside the standing problem, it’s primarily a case about Colorado’s public accommodations law. Secondarily, however, it’s about undermining the status of LGBTQ people as a protected class.

I say this because it’s actually quite easy for artists like Smith to get around public accommodation laws by having a public business that provides generic services and making oneself available separately for private commissions (which they can pick and choose at will).

SnipSnip's avatar

Of course not.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

So let me get this straight there was NEVER A WEBSITE DESIGNER AND A GUY COUPLE . . .

IT WAS ALL FABRICATED BY THE FASCIST RIGHT AND THE LAWYERS MAY NEVER NEVER BE IN COURT AS LAWYERS AGAIN ! ! ! ! !

I wonder which right wing group will pay them for the next fifty years ? ? ? ? ? ?

JLeslie's avatar

I haven’t read previous answers.

I don’t think so.

Serving someone at a restaurant, selling someone a ready made cake, or selling someone a dress is different than creating something through artwork.

I do think we are in danger of gay marriage being in jeopardy, but not serving people in a restaurant would be so blatantly racist you can’t couch that in religious beliefs. That would be going so far backwards it would be time to start digging out my passport.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Jeruba For some Christians, even good people, it’s very difficult to overcome the religious dogma of ‘choosing sin’ in relation to LGBTQ’s. They prefer to not be in any contact.
To me, that is the opposite of Jesus teaching’s and a stain on modern Christianity.
I would be interested to know who bankrolled her.

JLeslie's avatar

Was this website programming? Or, the actual website graphics that the consumer sees?

Graphic design could come under artistry, but I don’t think programming should. I realize the programmers name is still associated with the webpage, but the programming could be used for any couple.

jca2's avatar

Cut and pasted from the NY Times, July 5, 2023. Details about the hypothetical request and other things are in the article.

After the Supreme Court ruled last week that a Colorado graphic designer has the right to refuse to create websites for same-sex marriages, critics of the decision raised questions about a form included in court papers in the case that appeared to show that a gay couple had sought the services of the designer, Lorie Smith.

The man who supposedly submitted the form said he was unaware of its existence until a reporter for The New Republic called him. He is, moreover, straight, married to a woman and a supporter of gay rights. The apparent falsehoods, critics said, undermined the court’s decision.

What is known about the request?
It was apparently submitted on the website of Ms. Smith’s company, 303 Creative, on the afternoon of Sept. 21, 2016, the day after she filed suit in federal court in Colorado to challenge an aspect of the state’s anti-discrimination law. She said in the suit that the law violated the First Amendment by forcing her to espouse beliefs at odds with her faith.

The lawsuit was the subject of news coverage and may have prompted the submission.

The form was said to have been filled out by someone named Stewart, and it included a real email address and phone number. “We are getting married early next year and would love some design work done for our invites, placenames etc.,” Stewart wrote, saying his partner was named Mike. “We might also stretch to a website.”

It is undisputed that Ms. Smith never followed up on the request. But she later mentioned it in court papers, apparently to suggest that her case was more than hypothetical.

What did the parties tell the Supreme Court?
Ms. Smith’s lawyers devoted a sentence to the matter in their main brief. “Despite Colorado barring Smith from publicizing her wedding services,” they wrote, “she has already received at least one request for a same-sex wedding website.” There followed a page citation to a large appendix of earlier filings jointly submitted by the parties, which included the form.

In their main brief in the case, lawyers for Colorado said the form was irrelevant to the court’s decision.

“The company” — a reference to Ms. Smith’s firm — “claims that, after it sued, it received a ‘request for a same-sex-wedding website,’” the brief said. “But the ‘request’ referred to by the company was not a request for a website at all, just a response to an online form asking about ‘invites’ and ‘placenames,’ with a statement that the person ‘might also stretch to a website.’”

“The company did not respond to that online form,” Colorado’s brief said. “Nor did the company take any steps to verify that a genuine prospective customer submitted the form.”

Lawrence Pacheco, a spokesman for Phil Weiser, the state’s attorney general, said Colorado’s brief had noted that the request was problematic. “We raised the fact it was not a real request,” he said.

Got a news tip about the courts?If you have information to share about the Supreme Court or other federal courts, please send us a secure tip at nytimes.com/tips.
In an interview last year, Mr. Weiser focused on what he said was the larger question in the case: a lack of a meaningful record.

“This is a made-up case,” Mr. Weiser said. “There haven’t been any websites that have been made for a wedding. There hasn’t been anyone turned away. We’re in a world of pure hypotheticals.”

What did the Supreme Court say about matter?
Neither the majority opinion nor the dissent mentioned the supposed request or appeared to give it any weight.

Meet The Times’s Supreme Court Reporter
Adam Liptak, who has been covering the Supreme Court since 2008, started at The Times as a copy boy in 1984. He left to attend Yale Law School, became a practicing lawyer and worked in The Times’s corporate legal department before returning to the newsroom. Learn about how he approaches covering the court.

March 2022
Justice Neil M. Gorsuch, writing for the majority on Friday, summarized approvingly an appeals court ruling that said Ms. Smith and her company had established standing to sue because they faced a credible fear of punishment under a Colorado anti-discrimination law if they offered wedding-related services but turned away people seeking to celebrate same-sex unions.

In dissent, Justice Sonia Sotomayor did not discuss the request or the standing question.

What do Lorie Smith’s lawyers say?
“Whether it was genuine or whether it was a troll, we don’t know,” Kristen Waggoner, the president of the Alliance Defending Freedom, which represents Ms. Smith, said in an interview.

Investigating the question would have been legally perilous, Ms. Waggoner said. “If Lorie followed up,” she said, “Colorado had already held that they would prosecute her for violating the law.”

Ms. Waggoner said critics should focus on what the court decided. “They should criticize the ruling based on its substance rather than perpetuating falsehoods about the case,” she said.

What does Stewart say?
“Nobody connected with this case has ever reached out to me to attempt to verify the information contained in the court filings as correct,” Stewart said on Monday, asking that his last name not be used. He added that he was “disappointed with the Supreme Court’s ruling and the implications for the L.G.B.T.Q.+ community.”

Adam Liptak covers the Supreme Court and writes Sidebar, a column on legal developments. A graduate of Yale Law School, he practiced law for 14 years before joining The Times in 2002.

JLeslie's avatar

As an independent graphic designer I think the person should be able to refuse the work. If they work for a company then too bad, if they won’t do the design the company has every right to fire them in my opinion.

I think some people will think this means they can refuse to serve gay people and we will have some idiot restaurant owner somewhere telling a gay couple to leave their restaurant. The owner saying they have the right to not serve gay people on their own private property. They simply don’t have that right, and I doubt that will change.

In the case of the cake, the owner sold cakes to the customer regularly, it was only doing the wedding design that he refused.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@JLeslie “As an independent graphic designer I think the person should be able to refuse the work.”

Independent graphic designers can refuse any sort of work that they want. Smith wanted her business to be a place of public accommodation in order to receive the benefits of adhering to anti-discrimination laws and then sued so that she could still discriminate. And as I noted above, she could have easily separated her work into a public business that does generic work and a private business that takes commissions.

@KNOWITALL Smith’s case was bankrolled by the ADF.

JLeslie's avatar

@SavoirFaire Overall, I think you and I agree with where the line should be drawn.

Did you find any evidence that Smith was actually being paid or making money on being willing to be named the suit?

Dutchess_III's avatar

It took a long time to get on board with Blacks being equal, but we finally got there
This the same process, different group of folks.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@JLeslie ADF was very public in their support for Smith and lists her as a client on their website. It’s not a secret. But they didn’t pay her for the suit. They paid her legal fees and connected her with better lawyers than she could have gotten on her own. It’s what advocacy groups do.

JLeslie's avatar

@SavoirFaire Would you say she was a pawn in ADF’s mission though?

SavoirFaire's avatar

@JLeslie No. While the ADF was certainly looking for someone like Smith, she reached out to them first. She wasn’t duped or used.

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