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Tropical_Willie's avatar

Have they found a way to change laws using SCOTUS?

Asked by Tropical_Willie (31435points) July 3rd, 2023

Have the Right wing found a way to change laws using the SCOTUS ?

The Colorado website designer never had a gay couple as customers ! One of the listed people as gay has been married and straight for years.

The lawyers that brought case to the SCOTUS maybe disbarred for bringing a case to SCOTUS that never happened.

I wonder which conservative group is going to pay the lawyers forever, after they lose their licenses tp practice law?

https://www.newsweek.com/how-attorneys-supreme-court-lgbtq-case-disbarred-1810520

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21 Answers

kritiper's avatar

Like it’s some kind of subversive, conscious plot? No. It just seems that way since Trump loaded the court with ultra-conservative judges.

JLeslie's avatar

It’s not like the Fascists are the first to figure out that the Supreme Court has a lot of power and can be used to push policy in the US. The court is supposed to interpret the constitution, not create laws, but in essence it is deciding if laws in states are ok or must be removed.

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Blackwater_Park's avatar

Every dog has their day. We could see a future where there are harder left leaning judges find their way onto SCOTUS and start hacking away at rights from their direction. It’s really hard, but very important to keep SCOTUS as neutral as possible. The balance is simply tipped to the religious right at the moment. I do believe it’s an advantage to keep it slightly conservative as that slows the pace of change to a degree. It’s a tap on the brakes. This is different when we actually reverse directions and overturn things like Roe V Wade. That’s unbalanced.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

THE POINT IS, IT WAS A BOGUS CASE – - IT NEVER HAPPENED !

it was at best a hypothetical case.

Served another loss of someone’s rights for the benefit of a fright-winger.

JLeslie's avatar

If the lawyers knew it was a lie they will likely be punished in some way. It is completely against their code of ethics.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@JLeslie yes, that is the reason I asked who was going to pay the bills for the debarred lawyers. . .

seawulf575's avatar

I hadn’t heard of this case that was brought forward. What I saw was that she (the graphic artist) was thinking of moving into wedding announcement efforts, that there was no one that had actively asked for services, and that she was opening the suit to settle pre-emptively that the Colorado law was illegal because of the conflict with the First Amendment in regards to religious beliefs.

If there was such a request that was so key to the case, it would seem it was probably an e-mail request or an inquiry left on her company’s info page. It wasn’t a service she was refusing…it never got that far. And it hits me as odd that after going to lower courts all the way up to the SCOTUS that no one thought to actually reach out to the guy during previous cases to prove the veracity of the information. And it is highly unlikely that the woman verified it was legitimate either. Why would she? She gets a request for services that are specifically asking for services for a same-sex wedding, why would she call them up to verify they are gay?

I’m not even sure it really matters. If someone left the inquiry, it doesn’t matter if the person was serious or if they were scamming the owner. The only reason this would be a big deal is if the owner faked the inquiry…made it up. Which seems really odd that she would do that and that she could come up with some guys email and phone number without knowing him. His claim is that he never left the inquiry. So someone did. According to the article cited, when they asked “Stewart” about the inquiry he claimed it sounded like someone was using false information in a Supreme Court filing. Seems odd if he had nothing to do with it that he would jump right to that conclusion. If I got a call from a reporter asking about this, I’d tell them I didn’t know anything about it, that I never left the inquiry. I probably would not jump on the idea that someone was using false information in a Supreme Court filing. Even if I realized that was the import of the information, I doubt I’d say it. Possible he is lying? Possible he was trying to set her up for a lawsuit?

In the end, this was a civil rights case about the owner against the state of Colorado’s law.

As for the right wing trying to use the SCOTUS to change laws, isn’t that what the left has done repeatedly? Look at the Obergefell decision. There were quite a few examples of laws that were overruled around the country by that decision. Isn’t that what the left was doing? Trying to use the SCOTUS to change the laws?

JLeslie's avatar

It absolutely matters if the case is based on a fabricated incident or lie. It’s incredibly suspicious considering what is being pushed in front of this particular court.

Being preemptive makes me think of that woman who studied up on stand your ground laws and then shot a girl through a door.

People are being persuaded to be fearful and full of hate.

I hope they investigate the woman in the graphic design case to make sure she wasn’t paid to bring suit.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie But the graphic artist that brought this case was not denying services because she hadn’t moved into the wedding side of the business. And let’s be honest, the baker that refused to do a same-sex wedding cake ended up winning his case, but it took 5 years. Being preemptive only makes sense since the alternative is to put yourself into that same situation where your name is being smeared and you are putting out tons of money for legal defense.

jca2's avatar

Cut and pasted from the NY Times, July 5, 2023. Details about the hypothetical request and other things are in the article.

After the Supreme Court ruled last week that a Colorado graphic designer has the right to refuse to create websites for same-sex marriages, critics of the decision raised questions about a form included in court papers in the case that appeared to show that a gay couple had sought the services of the designer, Lorie Smith.

The man who supposedly submitted the form said he was unaware of its existence until a reporter for The New Republic called him. He is, moreover, straight, married to a woman and a supporter of gay rights. The apparent falsehoods, critics said, undermined the court’s decision.

What is known about the request?
It was apparently submitted on the website of Ms. Smith’s company, 303 Creative, on the afternoon of Sept. 21, 2016, the day after she filed suit in federal court in Colorado to challenge an aspect of the state’s anti-discrimination law. She said in the suit that the law violated the First Amendment by forcing her to espouse beliefs at odds with her faith.

The lawsuit was the subject of news coverage and may have prompted the submission.

The form was said to have been filled out by someone named Stewart, and it included a real email address and phone number. “We are getting married early next year and would love some design work done for our invites, placenames etc.,” Stewart wrote, saying his partner was named Mike. “We might also stretch to a website.”

It is undisputed that Ms. Smith never followed up on the request. But she later mentioned it in court papers, apparently to suggest that her case was more than hypothetical.

What did the parties tell the Supreme Court?
Ms. Smith’s lawyers devoted a sentence to the matter in their main brief. “Despite Colorado barring Smith from publicizing her wedding services,” they wrote, “she has already received at least one request for a same-sex wedding website.” There followed a page citation to a large appendix of earlier filings jointly submitted by the parties, which included the form.

In their main brief in the case, lawyers for Colorado said the form was irrelevant to the court’s decision.

“The company” — a reference to Ms. Smith’s firm — “claims that, after it sued, it received a ‘request for a same-sex-wedding website,’” the brief said. “But the ‘request’ referred to by the company was not a request for a website at all, just a response to an online form asking about ‘invites’ and ‘placenames,’ with a statement that the person ‘might also stretch to a website.’”

“The company did not respond to that online form,” Colorado’s brief said. “Nor did the company take any steps to verify that a genuine prospective customer submitted the form.”

Lawrence Pacheco, a spokesman for Phil Weiser, the state’s attorney general, said Colorado’s brief had noted that the request was problematic. “We raised the fact it was not a real request,” he said.

Got a news tip about the courts?If you have information to share about the Supreme Court or other federal courts, please send us a secure tip at nytimes.com/tips.
In an interview last year, Mr. Weiser focused on what he said was the larger question in the case: a lack of a meaningful record.

“This is a made-up case,” Mr. Weiser said. “There haven’t been any websites that have been made for a wedding. There hasn’t been anyone turned away. We’re in a world of pure hypotheticals.”

What did the Supreme Court say about matter?
Neither the majority opinion nor the dissent mentioned the supposed request or appeared to give it any weight.

Meet The Times’s Supreme Court Reporter
Adam Liptak, who has been covering the Supreme Court since 2008, started at The Times as a copy boy in 1984. He left to attend Yale Law School, became a practicing lawyer and worked in The Times’s corporate legal department before returning to the newsroom. Learn about how he approaches covering the court.

March 2022
Justice Neil M. Gorsuch, writing for the majority on Friday, summarized approvingly an appeals court ruling that said Ms. Smith and her company had established standing to sue because they faced a credible fear of punishment under a Colorado anti-discrimination law if they offered wedding-related services but turned away people seeking to celebrate same-sex unions.

In dissent, Justice Sonia Sotomayor did not discuss the request or the standing question.

What do Lorie Smith’s lawyers say?
“Whether it was genuine or whether it was a troll, we don’t know,” Kristen Waggoner, the president of the Alliance Defending Freedom, which represents Ms. Smith, said in an interview.

Investigating the question would have been legally perilous, Ms. Waggoner said. “If Lorie followed up,” she said, “Colorado had already held that they would prosecute her for violating the law.”

Ms. Waggoner said critics should focus on what the court decided. “They should criticize the ruling based on its substance rather than perpetuating falsehoods about the case,” she said.

What does Stewart say?
“Nobody connected with this case has ever reached out to me to attempt to verify the information contained in the court filings as correct,” Stewart said on Monday, asking that his last name not be used. He added that he was “disappointed with the Supreme Court’s ruling and the implications for the L.G.B.T.Q.+ community.”

Adam Liptak covers the Supreme Court and writes Sidebar, a column on legal developments. A graduate of Yale Law School, he practiced law for 14 years before joining The Times in 2002.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 So to sum it up, the request showed up after the case was started (after it was filed in federal court). The request specifically stated that they were looking for work to support their upcoming wedding and that Stewart indicated his partner was Mike. The parts that seem odd in this are that (a) the timing of the request, (b) the mystery surrounding the person that submitted it, (c) the big to-do saying that an attorney could be disbarred when the request played no part in the entire case other than a data point that wasn’t needed anyway. This seems like the request was an effort to poison her case.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 Steward is straight and has been married to a woman for years and years.

BOGUS case paid for by right wing christian organization that hates LGBTQ+ people and want to changes laws so they can persecute “to subject (someone) to hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of their ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation or their political beliefs.”

In short a known hate group paid for the lawyers and supported a lie to change a Federal law!.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Someone knew Stewart. They knew his cell phone number and his email address since both of these were used in the request for information that was left on the Graphic Artist’s web site. And whoever did that claimed to be gay. And they put this on the website after the lawsuit was filed with the Federal Court.

So let’s take a look at what you are saying here. Someone that knew both Stewart’s cell phone number and his email address sent in a request to the website. This someone was working for a right wing Christian organization that hates LGBTQ+ people. They did this because they wanted to try changing the laws. Hmmmm….seems illogical. First off, it would be too easy to forensically track back to who sent the request so their deception would likely come to light if it was really a clandestine operation. Secondly, the lawsuit was already filed. She did not do wedding work for anyone at the time she filed the lawsuit. So why would someone suddenly send in a request for something like this the day after the lawsuit was filed? Thirdly, The lawsuit had merit on its own without this. The state law was violating the Constitution by superseding someone’s religious rights. That in itself is enough for a case. So how exactly would this request have any real bearing on the case at all? The only thing it could do is to show that there is a verifiable possibility of a gay person requesting wedding work. But that precedent was already set with the case against the baker.

This isn’t some convoluted plot by the right. What it MIGHT be is someone from the left trying to muddy the water by blasting her as a bigot. Had she responded to that request, they could use that response against her. She did not respond, however, so that plan fell through. And “Stewart” did not give his last name and it was not in the court filings so we don’t really know if he is straight and married at all. All we have is his word on it. That is a question mark.

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LifeQuestioner's avatar

Actually them rulling on the a case that’s not actually based on a real event totally goes against what the Supreme Court is supposed to do. It should be overturned, but it doesn’t mean it would be.

seawulf575's avatar

@LifeQuestioner How so? Why should someone be made a victim by a law that is violating their rights before we can say that law is wrong? By your logic, gay marriage should still be outlawed in many parts of the country. After all, there were laws that outlawed it but there was no individual case showing that someone was injured by it. But the laws violated people’s rights, correct? So lawsuits are taken to address the issue. And in this case, there was precedence where this law was used to punish someone already…a baker that didn’t want to do wedding cakes for same-sex marriage because of religious objections. How many victims are needed of an unjust law before it can be considered a bad law?

LifeQuestioner's avatar

@seawulf575 I’m probably talking to a brick wall when I’m talking to you about political issues, but the point is, that cases that come before The Supreme Court are supposed to be based on actual cases, not on something hypothetical. And it’s been debunked that the person was even gay. So obviously this was a false narrative that was put forward to try and get the Supreme Court to make a ruling, but of course you won’t believe that.

seawulf575's avatar

@LifeQuestioner If you are expecting me to not discuss this, then yes, you are talking to a brick wall. If you are willing to discuss and debate, I’m your man.

This is an actual case. It is a case between a business owner and the Director of the Civil Rights division of the Colorado State Government. The crux of the case is the Anti-Discrimination law the state civil rights department made that infringed on the business owner’s religious civil rights. This is a valid case. If it was not, it would not have gone through the courts all the way up to the SCOTUS and the SCOTUS would not have heard the case. It is not hypothetical. There is an actual law that violates someone’s rights. Jack Phillips is a baker in Colorado that already had to fight against this sort of discrimination by the Colorado Civil Rights Dept.

As for “Stewart”, I wouldn’t say it is debunked. He claimed he is straight and didn’t send the request. That may be true or it may be a lie he is now telling because he was up to no good. Since we only have his word and we don’t even know his last name to verify his word, it isn’t debunked. It is a question mark. Because if he didn’t send the request, who did and why did they claim to be him and that he was gay? How did they know his email and phone number to use on the request? But debunked? Nah. That’s like someone breaking the law and getting picked up for questioning and then saying “I didn’t do it”. Is that debunking the suspicion? Should the cops then just say “Well, he says he didn’t do it so we can cross him off the list of suspects!”?

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