Have you heard that right wing christians nowadays are starting to reject the teachings of Jesus as being "too liberal"?
https://www.newsweek.com/evangelicals-rejecting-jesus-teachings-liberal-talking-points-pastor-1818706
”“Multiple pastors tell me, essentially, the same story about quoting the Sermon on the Mount, parenthetically, in their preaching—‘turn the other cheek’—[and] to have someone come up after to say, ‘Where did you get those liberal talking points?’” Moore said.
“When the pastor would say, ‘I’m literally quoting Jesus Christ’ ... The response would be, ‘Yes, but that doesn’t work anymore. That’s weak,”
Do you deem this surprising, or do you consider this to be a matter of inevitability considering the current state of right wing politics?
Observing members:
0
Composing members:
0
82 Answers
Also he gave away free healing. Without going through insurance.
It’s been 2000 years; It is about time for an update.
Why are we not surprised? Their stance makes perfect sense.
Remember that according to legend, Jesus was a rabble-rousing Jew who called out the Romans for their empire and cruelty, who railed against financial transactions (money-lenders at the temple), who fed the hungry (socialism) and cured the sick (state-provided health care).
Jesus in his actions was the anathema of everything that the right wing supports – they hate that he was anti-business, they hate that he healed people, they hate that he fed people without charge—in essence, Jesus was a liberal democrat.
No wonder the right wing hates him.
The bigger question is: if the christian right wants to get rid of Jesus, who would they replace him with? Hitler? Stalin? Who would be their replacement idol?
I haven’t heard that, but it’s pretty scary. I’ve been hoping the Christians would be the ones to correct the course of the US. That real Christians would break the brainwashed ones out of their trance.
For about 15 years I noticed plenty of Christians have been promoting greed and saying building wealth is what God wants, so in my opinion already they were diverting away from the teachings of Christ.
@JLeslie – yes, that’s the so-called ‘Prosperity Gospel’ – very big in the south.
from the Harvard Divinity School(PG)%20is,through%20devotion%20and%20positive%20confession.
Interestingly, more than one of the prosperity gospel leaders has gone to jail on financial crimes….
@elbanditoroso I didn’t know the term prosperity gospel or that some of those preachers went to jail.
@JLeslie When I had cable TV, I watched Joel Osteen, and Creflo Dollar. They are prosperity gospel preachers.
They call themselves the stewards of Earth’s riches.
Stewards of God’s riches on Earth.
I had been reading about that today. There sure are going to be a LOT of surprised christian nationalists when they finally cross over!!! They also had plans to rewrite the Bible replacing every reference to Jesus with old 45’s name. It takes a LOT to piss off God, but I do think that would do it!!!
When they say its too weak, what they mean to say is that they see Trump as their Jesus Christ. Think about it. It makes sense. If one were to actually follow Jesus teaching then life would be difficult. Christianity teaches people about being kind and caring.
Here comes Trump to the rescue. You don’t have to be kind and caring. You can be hateful and selfish and it’s all good. Trumpism is a cult. The right doesn’t know it yet but it’s not liberal ideas that are killing faith. Trump is killing faith. The extreme right is killing faith. They are no different than the Taliban which uses holy ideas to persecute others and gain power. It’s always been easier to follow the devil.
There are already faction of christian faiths breaking off with each other and some pastors spewing hate and violence and saying they need to do more like the taliban more or less. They are becoming radicalized. Like I said. The devil is so welcoming.
Anyone can be evil. Way harder to be good.
An interesting question. Years ago the left pushed hard for people to leave the church, to brand it as radical, to ridicule it as superstition, etc. That continues today. Now there is a push from the other side and it is a surprise? Why?
But from the posted article what you are seeing is one person that the church disagreed with because of his anti-Trump preachings. This disagreement made him leave the church, but as can be seen in the article, he continues his Trump hatred. So now he is bashing the church because he believes it supports Trump, not because of something one or two people said, if it was said at all. It may even have been said as a joke…a jab at him for his rabid hatred of Trump and his uber-leftist views. We only have his word that anything of the sort was said or the context of it. We do have his word as to his hatred of Trump.
But let’s say it was true. Both sides in this are wrong in my view. They both miss the point behind Christianity. It isn’t political in nature at all. Jesus’ teachings were not about government or politics. They were about how a person should act to keep their soul in line with what God wanted for them. When confronted about whether He believed Jews should be paying the taxes that Rome was levying on them, his response was simple: “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”
@seawulf575 Who exactly is the left in your mind? 90% of Congress is Christian. Biden is a practicing Catholic, Pelosi was a practicing Catholic. Obama and Clinton were/are Christians. Maybe you don’t count Catholics as Christian? Our representatives in our government identify as Christian more than the general population. Many of those representatives are Democrats. Just here in our little community plenty of our Christian jellies are Democrats.
You say Jesus wasn’t political, yet on another Q you argued for religion in government.
@Pandora That’s the backlash I was talking about on another Q. The religious fanatics in the end will likely cause people to leave Christianity. Unfortunately, it will probably have to get worse before it gets better.
Pose as Catholics? Are you being sarcastic?
@JLeslie I think he means it. Conspiracy theorists generally try to weave a bunch of convenient facts into a vast quilt of conspiracy to build their theory.
It’s not just this, and it’s not just @seawulf575—you can look at any number of conspiracy theories (Jewish Space Lasers, JFK assassination, even coronavirus, just to name three) where a couple of disparate facts are knit into a wacko ‘solution’.
I agree with @seawulf that Jesus was calling out corruption – but would expand that to say – not just Jewish corruption but also that of the Roman occupiers.
But the broader question is this:
“Christians” tend to include the Catholic Church when it’s convenient to do so (anti-choice) but then they tend to denigrate and dismiss Catholicism when doing so makes their right wing Pentecostal point. It almost makes you want to be sympathetic to Catholics.
One final note: if it weren’t for their stances on celibacy, abortion and birth control, Catholic theology is actually pretty liberal on social issues. It’s a shame.
@elbanditoroso I feel like Catholics are being duped into thinking the Protestant community is now accepting of them. I do think parts of the Protestant community is accepting of Catholics as Christians, but some parts no. If Christianity became more a part of the government and our schools, it’s not going to be the Catholic bible in our schools.
Maybe most of the Catholics aren’t duped, but just care about some of the same issues so they don’t mind lining up with them. It’s like the conservative Jewish people who vote Religious Right Republican Christians because of Israel even if they disagree with many other policies. They vote for them in spite of knowing those Christians just want to use the Jewish people to fulfill the prophecy and then we don’t even get to go to heaven.
Because most opinionated, closed-minded, “Christians” have never actually read the Bible. They certainly haven’t read historical thought of Jesus, like Bart Ehrnan’s work.
@JLeslie I think you’re right – and as you wrote, there are lot of Jews (and in particular Israelis) who buy into the idea of protestant support for Israel, when in fact the protestants are lending this support in order bring about the next apocalypse. See paragraph 3 of this document
Ridiculous, and that person certainly doesn’t represent all Christians.
I do feel like many have continually had issues reconciling some issues with Jesus teachings such as LGBTQ issues, and we kbow the Catholics are being soft on abortion.
It’s funny how some see “the Left” (which most of us Jellies are not) as a monolith and some see religion or Christianity as a monolith. I know many Christians whose values align with liberal views and I myself, as a Jewish person, am a member of a socially conscious denomination that derives from Protestantism. I don’t align all people of any religion with certain values, I think as the question states, they are talking about far right Evangelical Christians.
I’m not sure why anyone is getting their knickers in a twist about this.
@JLeslie Pose as Catholics? Absolutely. I believe that many politicians were Catholics or Christians in their youth, maybe even when they entered politics. But they certainly aren’t GOOD Catholics or Christians. They have become those that Jesus would have railed against.
The part I find interesting is that you had outrage that I dared to impugn the politicians and had absolutely nothing about Catholics being branded as Domestic Terrorists by the DOJ. Would you have had the same feelings if Jews were suddenly branded with that same title?
Whoa! @seawulf575 – who decides who is a GOOD catholic (or any other denomination)? That’s a scary thought… an external source determining who is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ in that religion..
@seawulf575 I named Biden and Pelosi as practicing Catholics and I stand behind that. I believe the Clintons are Christian too, not just using it for politics. Do I think some politicians fake being religious? Yes I do, I think it happens on both sides of politics and more on the right if I had to guess, because part of being a Republican politician in many parts of the country is marketing themselves as religious. I firmly believe Trump isn’t religious or a theist. If I’m wrong, are you going to call him a GOOD Christian? What makes someone a good Christian?
I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the DOJ. Our DOJ called Catholics terrorists? All Catholics as a group? When?
When people were angry with ultra-orthodox Jews having parties during the height of covid other Jewish people had no problem being angry and criticizing them for their behavior. I really don’t understand why some Christians get so offended when we are angry about a specific group of Christians. We know Christians have all sorts of differing opinions and beliefs and varying levels of religiosity.
@elbanditoroso Who decides if they are good or bad Catholics (or Christians)? They do. It’s very simple. They are all told what is expected of them, what God wants the to do and not do. They opt to do the things they are not supposed to do and not do the things that are expected of them. No external source involved.
Your view would be like saying that someone saying that it is scary that some external source could think King Ferdinand II and Queen Isabella I of Spain were BAD for funding and pushing the Inquisition. Gee…how could any external source ever come to a conclusion like that?
@JLeslie I firmly believe that the religious hypocrisy extends to all politicians. Someone that tries to live the life of a good Christian would get eaten alive by the corruption in our government.
As for the DOJ calling Catholics Terrorists, go look at the links I already provided. The last one spells it out pretty good. And here’s the kicker…the FBI had CHS’s spying on many Catholic Churches to try finding out if there is anything to use against them long before they decided to call them terrorists.
As for getting angry about calling out specific Christian groups, I have no problem with that. Technically the KKK was a radical Christian organization. The problem is that we can easily see it never stops with just one group that gets blasted. Much like goes on with Jews, if someone gets angry about something and blames Jews, it just grows on its own until it isn’t one group of Jews, it’s Jews in general.
@KNOWITALL As for the LGBTQ issue, here is an interesting take on it.
I think our pastor once had a perfect answer for the LGBTQ issue. He started talking with a lesbian that started attending church services but kept hiding in the back. When he finally approached her she revealed that she was a lesbian and that she was afraid that if the people in the church found out they would drive her out. The pastor told her that she was perfectly welcome in the church. He told her that the bible says homosexuality is a sin so he isn’t affirming her lesbianism. But he pointed out that we are all sinners. We are all flawed creatures that fall short of perfection. So not a single person in the church had a leg to stand on to start pointing out her sins. He said that God had wanted her to check out the church and he was happy she was there.
Calling her flawed and sinful. How does that make her feel welcome?
I said Jewish people called out the ultra orthodox. We didn’t take it as all Jews, and we clarified for anyone who didn’t understand. What we didn’t do as Jews is get hyper-defensive and start blaming other people for accusing all Jews.
@seawulf575 Sure now if all preachers leas that way we’d be in good shape.
I have a lesbian couple as friends really going thru turmoil right now because one is more religious and is feeling their relationship may be more than she’s willing to confess at Judgement. I’m pretty shook up over it. Many of my LGBTQ friends have serious issues in relation to their truth and religion. I wish Jesus was here to clear it up.
I’m not sure calling someone “flawed” is a good strategy. He could have said “not in line with church teachings” or something like that.
I was reading something about a week ago about how the percentage of people who identify as Christian read this, there other analyses as well has gone down and continues to do so.
Basically, right wing christianity is giving ‘standard’ or mainstream Christianity a bad name, and people don’t want to be associated with it any more.
If I were a clergyman (which – thank god, I am not!!) I would be looking for ways to include peopleand make them feel welcome. Not to insult them.
@elbanditoroso That’s called ‘watering down the gospel’, usually derogatorily, here.
We are all flawed sinners, none greater or smaller, so in that context we are all the same.
I very much agree some give everyone a bad name, primarily politicians and those who ‘speak for God’. I know a few sadly.
@JLeslie Yes, honesty is bad. He pointed out that the bible says homosexuality is a sin. It does in several spots. Pretty sure some of those are echoed in the Talmud too. But he also went on to say effectively “So what? Everyone sins. Your sin is no different than the sin committed by everyone else.” Talk about inclusive!?! And amazingly, despite your ridicule, she did feel welcome.
@elbanditoroso Go back and read again. He said EVERYONE is flawed, he didn’t single her out. That is you, that is me, that is the preacher…everyone. We are all flawed in the eyes of God because we are sinful creatures. Are you saying you are not flawed? That you are perfect?
I’m really a bit confused here. You fine folks always talk about inclusivity and accepting people as they are. Yet when I give you a situation where that was done you all start flipping out, trying to find fault. Must be because it was a church thing…you all just hate churches and are quick to find fault.
@seawulf575 Sinning and flawed.
Is that what you say to someone born with only one arm? They are flawed? Being gay is what she is, it isn’t like she forgot to call her aunt back to say thank you for a gift.
I can’t answer for @elbanditoroso but I’ll guess he’s similar to me that we were not raised with that language. Maybe that lesbian girl was raised Christian and it didn’t make her feel terrible, but I have my doubts. My family says things like “we all make mistakes” but mistakes don’t include purposely hurting someone else.
Saying all sins are equal doesn’t make sense to me at all, our laws and punishments don’t even reflect that idea. Sounds like convenient language for people at the top to do whatever they want. Just like telling people to worship suffering, that God only gives you what you can handle, and not to question your circumstances.
Edit: Jews aren’t told we are flawed. Most Jewish parents and adults tell children and others they are perfect and beautiful and smart and they are also expected to be good. To make the world a better place through good behaviors.
@seawulf575 my religion (Judaism) does not have the belief that we are all flawed and need to be fixed. That is very much a Christian belief.
Judaism celebrates life and good deeds and ‘betterment of the world’ (Tikkun Olam) but it doesn’t put all people in a hole from birth that they need to dig their way out of.
It’s a totally different world view than Christianity.
^^I feel like that’s a “jinx.” You were writing when I added my edit.
@JLeslie FFS! Get it through your head. We aren’t talking about physical flaws, we are talking about spiritual flaws. Are you saying you don’t sin, that you’ve never sinned? That you are perfect?
@elbanditoroso So you are saying that Judaism doesn’t teach that humans sin? That they are perfect for ever and ever? There aren’t any sins listed that you can (and probably do) commit on an almost daily basis? Really?!?!?!? I throw the bullshit flag on that one. Let me refer you to the Mosaic Law. I found a nice List that spells out a whole lot of sins you can commit. And if Jews are so perfect, why do you have Yom Kippur, your holy day of atonement? Why do you need a day of atonement if you don’t sin?
Oh, please. I’m not going to teach you Judaism from the beginning. It took me 12 years of synagogue school to learn.
If course we sin, and of course we atone on Yom Kippur. But as I wrote above, we don’t start out in a whole with the assumption of being flawed. And we don’t live every day trying to unflaw ourselves. It is a whole different outlook on the world.
That’s the end of the argument for me. If you can’t see that there is a difference in our religious outlooks, there’s nothing to talk about.
@elbanditoroso Oh! I just noticed…#103 says sodomy with a man is wrong. Guess you are against homosexuality, eh? You have to say yes because #36 says you have to rebuke sinners. Oops! Guess you have sinned on that one.
As for trying to atone yourself of your sins, that is exactly what Christianity is about. The only difference is that we recognize and readily accept that we are sinners. You believe you enter the world free of sin and then have to live by all your laws or you become a sinner. Do you believe you have made it through a day without sinning?
@seawulf575 Somewhere you were talking about morality and ethics coming from religious belief and using that for laws in our country.
You know, both @elbanditoroso and I are explaining the different POV from Christianity and Judaism. I said the terminology you use is very different than what I would use. I think the meaning is confused since we hear it so differently and maybe define it differently. I’m trying to understand it.
Maybe take a step back and be interested in the message that we are explaining rather than defensive. The basic message in religious terms is we are all God’s children. We are here to please God by helping each other. We are here to complete what He started, He is the creator.
There are jokes made about Jewish mothers wanting their children to be doctors or lawyers, but it is from the Talmud that when you save one life you save the world. Additionally, Judaism teaches justice and equality, and lawyers fight for justice.
Sure there are bad people and any and all of us do bad things at one point or another. We ask people for their forgiveness and then we ask God for His forgiveness.
Is the lesbian woman supposed to ask for forgiveness for being gay? That’s where the problem is. That means her very existence is bad. I can’t accept that. Why would she even want to exist or feel worthy with that message being told to her?
If you are interested in reading a little more, I recommend the book the Idiots Guide to Jewish History and Culture. It has a little religion in there and explanations that might help you understand how Jewish people tend to look at the world and think and act. Of course everyone is different, it’s not like every Jewish person thinks and acts the same, but there are generalizations that can be made too. It’s easy to skip around if a chapter is boring to you and overall it is an easy read. I haven’t read it in 20 years, it’s probably updated since then.
@JLeslie The question was about Christianity. We are trying to explain our POV as Christians raised in said belief system.
@seawulf575 was simply pointing out that other religions also have anti-LGBTQ laws for believers.
The question seems like a hasty generalization based on the personal opinion of a disgruntled man.
Christians have been picking and choosing which aspects of religion support their own biases and bigotry for ages – this is the next logical step for them.
Yes, this colloquy began with christianity.
But that train left the station around posting 7 or 8, and the discussion veered elsewhere as it often does in this forum.
So to dismiss other peoples’ views because ‘the question is about Christianity’, @KNOWITALL , is somewhat disingenuous.
@elbanditoroso Who’s view did I dismiss? I was pointing out two facts.
@JLeslie I understand completely what you and @elbanditoroso are saying. I understand the basic difference between Judaism and Christianity. But that difference that you are pushing is meaningless. Yes, you’ve not been raised with the words I used, but the point is not semantics. It’s that we are all sinners. I’ve noticed neither of you dared to say you weren’t so we can put that to rest. Humans are sinners by just about every religion in one way or another. I don’t care how pious you are, I don’t care how good you are, I don’t care how meticulously you try to avoid sinning, you will sin at one point or another.
The point I was making, and that my pastor made, was that understanding that…that we all sin…would make anyone that ran down someone for their sins a hypocrite. And in our religion, we openly acknowledge that we sin. Apparently you do not. You keep it hidden until Yom Kippur. If you did openly acknowledge it, I would not have gotten the tandem attacks on how callous that response was.
Typical christain response. Telling Jews how they should live.
I’m tired of this crap.
@elbanditoroso Where am I telling you how to live? Where am I suggesting Jews should live a different way? YOU are the one that explained your view and how mine was horrid. And your view was that you were sinless…right up until I challenged you on that. So tell me…are you sinless? Do you live a life without sin?
@elbanditoroso Go back to the list I cited before. Look at # 28, 29, 30, 32, 53 & 54. Might want to meditate on those when you go back and look at your answers to this and every other thread. ESPECIALLY on threads where Trump is brought up and you are interacting with me.
@seawulf575 Total bullshit. Nobody here is saying they don’t make mistakes. If you want to call some of it sins according to your holy book, fine go ahead. I have sinned according to you. I’m not perfect, I freely admit that. I had sex before marriage, I assume that’s a sin. There you go.
My point, which I don’t think you are hearing, is when you sin you probably think of it as something you did one day and hope you do better in the future. The Lesbian will have a LIFE of never escaping the sin. NEVER being able to work towards being a “better” person, maybe never feeling she can go to heaven, not unless she completely denies that part of her. It’s not like someone who steals who can finally make their way to earning an honest living. We are talking about who she loves ñ, who she wants to share her life with. Two consenting adults where they are not harming others. She has no escape. No way out.
That’s how I hear what you are saying, and if your meaning is different, I’m just telling you probably a lot of gay children hear it my way no matter what your intent is. I’m not gay or Christian, so I can’t speak for gay Christian children, but I’m just imagining it. As an adult it sounds just as bad I would think, but maybe easier to dismiss it.
Put yourself in the other person’s shoes.
I just realized I never responded to the accusation that the DOJ is targeting Catholics. The last article states the DOJ is looking at “RADICAL, traditional Catholics.” That is not targeting Catholics. That is targeting a radical religious group.
Probably, places like this WS training camp south of me created by Michael Flynn.
@JLeslie I’m not calling sins according to MY holy book, I’m calling sins according to YOUR holy book. And according to both books, homosexuality is a sin. So by YOUR book, that same lesbian is sinning. And by your religion, you are sinning right now by not rebuking her. What my pastor said was exactly that…the same as in your book and mine…homosexuality is a sin. But it isn’t the only sin, nor is she the only sinner. He rebuked the sin but offered her acceptance and the chance of redemption from her sins.
Another thing you are forgetting in my tale is that the lesbian came to church repeatedly before this exchange. She obviously was looking for something and was afraid her lesbianism would not allow her acceptance. How did his answer not put that fear to rest?
As for the “RADICAL, traditional Catholics”, digest that label a moment. If they are “Radical” how can they be “Traditional”? And I suggest you read the article. The FBI coordinated between multiple FBI field offices to send undercover agents into Catholic churches to see if they could find anything wrong. They had no indications of anything wrong, they just didn’t like Catholics. And their claim was that if Catholics did not readily accept the Second Vatican Council, they could have “anti-Semitic, anti-immigrant, anti-LGBTQ and white supremacist ideology.” This raises MANY red flags in my mind. Why were they focusing on Catholics? What were they really looking for in the beginning? When did the FBI get to establish what a proper religion looked like…what their beliefs should be? And then Wray lied under oath claiming it was only limited to a single field office. Why? They since retracted the memo, but I have to wonder if that was because they realized how crooked it made them or if they truly believed they were wrong. So yes, the DOJ is targeting Catholics. Let me ask, what would you think if the FBI put out a memo that suggested that radical, traditional Jews were potential domestic terrorists? Would you then be trying to support the FBI? Would you be throwing your fellow Jews under the bus?
@JLeslie And that’s the same problem I have with most religions and homosexuality. If it occurs naturally in the abimal world how can it be a sin?
I think it’s an issue everyone (religious) has to resolve for thenselves but I know my God would want me to show love regardless.
@seawulf575 If radical Jews were doing something to undermine our Democracy or planning violence against other groups, I’m fine with the DOJ looking into it. If they also go into other synagogues because of concern, and then find nothing subversive is being discussed or happening, then fine. I have zero concern that the DOJ or FBI is confusing mainstream Catholics with the radical groups.
As far as my book. I am not religious. All the religious books have contradictions from what I can tell. We can choose to follow the good. We can choose to help people feel they have worth and matter. Why do you think suicide is high in the LGBT community?
My husband usually doesn’t wear a beard, should I be worried? I don’t observe the Sabbath. I don’t try to follow “my book” to the letter. I think it was written during a different time.
I would guess Reform Judaism is ok with homosexuality. I’m not familiar with official Jewish stances on homosexuality. I’m pretty sure Judaism is ok with things we cannot choose, so if they believe we are born that way maybe the Orthodox are ok too? I don’t know. I know there is something about man should never lie with another man as he would with a woman. Not sure exactly how that is interpreted. What about a woman lying with another woman? Is it even mentioned?
Is the lesbian woman still attending that church? Like I said, maybe to her those words are words of acceptance.
@KNOWITALL :)
@JLeslie That wasn’t the question. If radical Catholics or other Christian groups were doing something and the FBI started looking into them, I’d support it wholeheartedly. But the question was “What if the DOJ suddenly branded radical, TRADITIONAL Jews as a terrorist threat?” That is part of the problem. AND, don’t forget, the FBI started sending undercover people into churches before anything was done…and nothing has been done that I know of. They made the brand on the idea that “they might have feelings of….”. So mull that one around but put Jews in place of Catholics. Are you saying you are okay with federal agents going undercover to spy on your synagogue? And then creating a problem that doesn’t exist?
All religious books have contradictions, at least on the surface. If someone in the bible or Torah goes to war, suddenly people are up in arms that that book supports war and murder. But that is taking basically one word out of context and making mean something that it wasn’t meant to mean.
You start talking about “Reform Judaism”. I’m pretty sure what you are talking about is people that are starting to rewrite the holy scriptures, picking and choosing what fits man’s desires. People can believe whatever they want. But if you go back and look at what was considered to be THE truth from God, what you are saying is that He didn’t know what he was talking about and that He couldn’t see what was coming. It’s a slippery slope you are walking when you do that.
As for the lesbian woman, she is no longer with the church. However she stayed for a year or two before moving on. Not once was she treated like a leper.
@seawulf575 I never was thinking she would be treated like a leper.
@seawulf575 THE book has some crazy stuff in it that we wouldn’t do or think today. Plus, THE book has been translated and originally was an oral book, and stories get changed as they are passed from person to person.
I think you are using traditional differently than me and different than the article. Radical tradition. Not radical and tradition like they are two separate groups. It’s the radical that is important. Radicalized.
@JLeslie You are reading things into the article that aren’t there. They didn’t say “radicalized Catholics”. They said “Radical, Traditional Catholics”. It is impossible to be both unless you view Catholics as a threat overall. And none of your efforts explain why they would spy on religions to start with without any prompting events. Again, what if they sent spies into your synagogue for no apparent reason and then determined that you might be terrorists?
What is a “traditional” catholic anyways?
Well known, time-honoured catholic traditions include military campaigns of conquest and forced conversions, slaughtering rival christian sects (euphemistically called “sectarian violence”), torturing heretics, burning alive alleged “witches”, and last but not least, and which is still going on unabated, raping little boys on the alter.
^^Good point. I don’t really know how the term is used.
@ragingloli and @JLeslie Exactly my point. Not sure what is meant…assume it means all! However you are still missing the point that the FBI started spying on these folks BEFORE they had any valid reason to. And they didn’t find any sleeper cells, no extensive (or even miniscule) networks, nothing. Yet for some reason this warning was sent out and the terrorist label was assigned. Why do you keep avoiding this?
It doesn’t mean all. Come on now.
I found a couple of articles on Traditionalist Catholics, but lets remember it’s not even everyone in this group that concerns the DOJ, it’s people who have been radicalized.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholicism
https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/is-traditionalist-catholicism-a-sect
In my opinion it sounds like Michael Flynn. The report I saw about him was he was raised by an extreme Catholic mother. During Trump he went QAnon and now he basically built a camp for extremists.
Previously, I was mystified how Catholics could link up with these groups that somewhat grew out of the KKK in America or attract what was formerly KKK. The KKK put Catholics in with the Jews and Blacks. Plus, you have NeoNazi, and Nazis traditionally didn’t trust Catholics. In the last few years I understand better about the different “sects” within the Catholic church.
The people radicalized I see as ignorant to history, used by extremists, and in turn they are extremist and dangerous themselves.
To be clear I do not think all Traditional Catholics are radical.
Politically, I see it as an outgrowth of the Republican party actively soliciting Evangelical Christians, and this also has reached out to the more fundamental Catholics I guess, mostly through the issue of abortion. Catholics have been kind of split politically, because some very Catholic parts of the country are heavily unionized and some Catholics remember or know the stories of the antiCatholic sentiment by other Christians in the US or have experienced it themselves.
@JLeslie So let me ask…Why did the FBI decide to target Catholics in the first place? There was no driving force I can see other than they want to make Catholics the target. Subsequent questioning in Congress has shown this to be the case. In fact, Christopher Wray actually lied to Congress about this. He said he knew about the memo, that it was isolated only to one field office (Richmond VA) and that he was aghast at it and he had them retract it. He also said there was no reason for them to target Catholics. However it wasn’t isolated to one office. It was at least 3 offices: Richmond VA, Portland OR, and Los Angeles CA. Kinda hard to believe that they just randomly all decided to move on this at once and to work together. AND these other field offices were reference in the memo. So how can he claim it was only one?
Again, I’m with you that bad players can and do exist in all walks of life and in all religious groups. Some are worse than others. But if you find a bad player you take care of that player. If they hint or tell you that they had been sought out by a group and that they were told to be bad and how to be bad by that group, THEN you have a reason to start investigating that group. But to take a bad player, say he was looking for a Catholic church to join and then make the jump that the church is the source of the problems? Certainly not worth sending undercover agents into the church to try finding wrongdoing. That is a huge stretch to connect those dots and make the entire thing legit. And as Wray said, even he was aghast at the memo. That might be that he was aghast that they put it in memo form (now a legal record) or it might be that he was aghast that they would target a religious group like that.
I have no problem with sending in undercover agents. If they found nothing they did their job. They weren’t planting evidence to accuse Catholics of something they weren’t doing. They were not going after Catholics nor going after the Catholic religion. They didn’t go into every Catholic church. The government is threatening to close Catholic churches. I’d bet some of agents are Catholic! That would make it easier for them to be undercover.
It’s not an attack on Catholics. It’s well known some bad players use religion as part of their schtick and might try to recruit in churches or several extremist attend the same church, even if they weren’t organized in the church.
@JLeslie So you would be okay with the FBI sending agents into your Synagogue? And if they determined there “might” be something to target because they believe there are terrorist ideals going on?
A religious temple should never be considered a save haven for crime.
@ragingloli Sanctuary in church has been used since Medieval times though in the Jewish and Christian faith.
A-ok. I’m not a member of a temple, but yes I’m ok with it. I don’t want terrorists meeting in a synagogue. You make it sound like as long as it’s not my religion I don’t care. I care about everyone’s freedom of religion the same as my own. This isn’t about freedom to practice, it’s about possible terrorists.
Edit: sanctuary to people planning to destroy the country and hurt people doesn’t sound like something real Catholics would want to do.
@JLeslie I keep coming back to this because I have asked a number of times and you have skirted away each time. Hard to tell if you would feel differently if it was Jews involved instead of Catholics when you avoid actually answering.
As for terrorists meeting in the synagogue (or the Catholic church), let’s reinforce that there weren’t terrorist meeting there. There was no real indications of that at all. Yet the FBI still “infiltrated” the church and came up with a wishy-washy way of branding traditional Catholics as “radical” and “possible domestic terror threats. So take away the ideas that there were actually terrorists in the Synagogue. The FBI had no evidence of wrongdoing, as I have said. So given that there is no evidence, what they effectively did was to try digging into a religion (in your case would be Judaism) to find a way to make them a threat. Would you feel the same way about terrorists in the synagogue if the FBI determined that everyone that went to that synagogue was a potential terrorist?
@JLeslie It actually was Roman law. Christian and Catholic churches stile the idea to compete with pagan temples who offered sanctuary. It was thought that secular authority was less important than getting right with God. But they had to convert to use it.
Its a similar concept as Sanctuary cities for illegal immigrants. In 2014 Ruiz successfully claimed Sanctuary in Arizona church to stave off deportation.0
I don’t know who Ruiz is.
Taking sanctuary for safety or shelter is different than harboring criminals who have a specific agenda to cause great harm. The crime of crossing a border illegally or hiding from Nazis is not the same as planning to blow up a federal building in Oklahoma.
@seawulf575 WTF?! I said I feel the same if it’s a temple or if a radical Jewish group was a terrorists group.
My inlaws are Catholic, and if there are extremist terrorists meeting in their church I hope there is a secret agent checking it out.
@JLeslie Ruiz is the illegal immigrant who used the church for sanctuary.
Careful, you’re starting to sound Republican as harboring criminals was their whole problem with sanctuary cities. If not checked by secular authorities, they could be a terrorist, no one knows.
So I agree its an outdated practice that should be illegal today.
As far as I know it is against the law to harbor criminals in the US, including against the law for churches to do it. In the end the law trumps religion, but I understand the law might look the other way in some circumstances and the churches might be willing to break the laws.
The church is to help someone without means or in a dire circumstance, but not to help people do something evil.
If we don’t know someone is a terrorist we don’t know. If we have good reason to suspect it’s worth pursuing. If we know the person is a terrorist I don’t care where he is, go get him or her.
I have never really understood sanctuary cities. I sound Republican sometimes, I’m fine with that. I don’t think I sound like the television Republicans or Democrats regarding immigration, although there are some reasonable politicians on the topic. I am against local authorities questioning someone about their legal status, but if they commit a crime then I’m fine bringing the fed in to evaluate their legal status in the country.
Even if someone is here legally, if they commit a felony and are anything short of a citizen they can be deported or of course sentenced to time in jail or both. That’s the law.
Domestic terrorists are citizens or at minimum legal residents. We aren’t really discussing santuary cities on this Q. That’s about immigration.
@KNOWITALL
That is why there is very little justice when it comes to all the sexual abuse in churches.
The organisations protect the perpetrators, and because churches are considered sacred cows, the law refuses to bring the hammer down on them.
@seawulf575 So given that there is no evidence, what they effectively did was to try digging into a religion (in your case would be Judaism) to find a way to make them a threat.
I thought they found nothing? They didn’t make things up to make them into a threat. The DOJ and FBI are welcome to come to services at my temple here as far as I’m concerned. I hope they pay a membership fee.
@JLeslie That’s a slippery slope when citizens or the church decide who is a criminal or not, which is the problem with Sanctuary in churches or cities.
@ragingloli You are right. I fully support arresting all criminals who break US laws with no exceptions.
@KNOWITALL There is no perfect answer. If the government is part of the evil, like Nazi Germany, then the church might decide to allow Jews to stay there. Or a church might help Black people as part of the underground railroad. That is the clergy following what they believe is morally right at great risk to themselves.
@JLeslie Agreed. History is rich with those seeking justice, from different perspectives.
@JLeslie “As far as I know it is against the law to harbor criminals in the US” you just described why the right is so against Sanctuary Cities (and states).
As for the FBI finding something, they didn’t. That’s what makes the memo so egregious. They didn’t have any evidence of a crime to drive them to start targeting Catholics and when they did target them, they still found nothing. The entire memo is along the line of “We believe that their beliefs might lead to something in the future that we will need to take action on. Therefore they should be considered domestic terrorists.” Now do you see why this is so bad? There weren’t terrorists being hidden in the church, the church was not a front for terrorism, there weren’t bad actors inside the church, using the indoctrination of the church as a basis for their wrongdoings…nothing. Yet they still put out a memo calling them domestic terrorists.
Answer this question 
Composing members:
0
