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JLeslie's avatar

What do you think about Trump misstating how large his apartment is?

Asked by JLeslie (65743points) October 3rd, 2023 from iPhone

From what I understand Trump wrote on documents that his apartment (that he owns) is 30,000 sq. ft. when it is only 11,000. He stated an inflated value to get loans and a lesser value for taxes. Did he pay the loans that used the apartment as collateral? He still has the apartment so I assume so.

I don’t see how a bank or other professional lender doesn’t check the size of a property. Is it incorrect in the county records? This is an experienced business entity or experienced person making the loan. If the county record is correct, then taxes are based on that. The county evaluates the assessed value, not Trump. Did Trump fight the county and some point regarding his assessed value for taxes?

How far is the NY AG going back? I hear on the news talk of Trump doing these things back to the ‘70’s. Ok, so why was nothing ever done? Was anything done in the past? How far back can the NY AG go for her case?

Bonus question: Do you think Trump should have to take his name off his buildings? I really don’t see how that happens. He’s not the only Trump.

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86 Answers

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

I think he is faking it until he makes it.
I suspect that he is not even a billionaire.

Pandora's avatar

I read they will basically lose their licenses for several of his businesses that were involved. At least for real estate. But in all likelihood, it will be more likely like a suspended license for a few years, so it would include his children as well if they have official ties to the businesses. For the businesses not involved, I believe they can still keep their licenses. But I think all this is guessing. It depends on the judge now. As for his buildings keeping his name, I wonder if that would still be considered part of it. Don’t care either way. But I’m sure it would make him blow his top if it had to be removed.

seawulf575's avatar

I guess it would depend on a lot of things. The value of a property is never just on the size of it. In fact it is mainly NOT on the size of it, though size could be used as a comparison. I once sold a house. When the appraisal company came out they took pictures, did measurements, etc. Then they went out and found the last 3 houses that sold in the area, averaged the sales price of those three and that was the appraised value. That was, I felt, unfair to me. I had a 1400 sqft house with a detached 2 car garage and a concrete driveway that could fit 7 cars, all on an oversized corner lot. I was compared to a house that was 1100 sqft with no garage, a house that was 900 sqft that had a grass driveway and a detached 1 car garage and a house that was 790 sqft with a garage that was falling in. All were on smaller lots. Some didn’t even have the same number of bedrooms or bathrooms I had.

Another thing issue is the size. Was it still 11,000 sqft? Was it ever 11,000 sqft or could the county have it wrong? Was it listed as 30,000 in error? Had it been added onto? When was the last time the county did a physical evaluation for tax purposes? These are just things I don’t know.

And the last would be what the loan rules are from the banks. Do they just run over to tax records to check? Or do they get an appraisal? Or did they do anything? When you get a home loan, the lending institution will get an appraisal done unless they had one done within a certain time frame (usually <6 months). They also do a title check. These things are done to determine the worth of the property. This is where it all gets a bit wonky. The bank never takes the word of the person they are going to loan money to as the final determining factor in any of this. Nor do they take the word of the appraiser if they didn’t hire him. So the bank had to have had someone that told them the value of the property. As I said earlier, the square footage may or may not matter in that appraisal.

And the last part of all this that really hits me as odd is that they are trying to get Trump on a Fraud case. I had to look up the definition of Fraud to see what it is, legally. Here is an explanation I found:

“Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant’s actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.

These elements contain nuances that are not all easily proved. First, not all false statements are fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must relate to a material fact. It should also substantially affect a person’s decision to enter into a contract or pursue a certain course of action. A false statement of fact that does not bear on the disputed transaction will not be considered fraudulent.

Second, the defendant must know that the statement is untrue. A statement of fact that is simply mistaken is not fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must be made with intent to deceive the victim. This is perhaps the easiest element to prove, once falsity and materiality are proved, because most material false statements are designed to mislead.

Third, the false statement must be made with the intent to deprive the victim of some legal right.

Fourth, the victim’s reliance on the false statement must be reasonable. Reliance on a patently absurd false statement generally will not give rise to fraud; however, people who are especially gullible, superstitious, or ignorant or who are illiterate may recover damages for fraud if the defendant knew and took advantage of their condition.

Finally, the false statement must cause the victim some injury that leaves her or him in a worse position than she or he was in before the fraud.”

So going to a lending institution to get a loan and putting a property up as collateral seems to challenge these requirements. Yes, one could claim something that was materially false to start with. But again, lending institutions don’t take your word for it. They have procedures in place to verify for themselves. So this claim doesn’t mean much. The “victim” doesn’t reasonably rely on anything the defendant said since they check for themselves. Another problem is that even if they did just take Trump at his word, did it change anything? Did he default on the loans and leave them holding a worthless property? No. As was noted, he paid the loans so the bank didn’t get hurt by anything.

This seems to be an overblown effort to “Get Trump”. Probably for political reasons.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Both DJT and Eric have claimed Mar-a-Lago is worth a billion dollars . . . the city appraised it at $18 milliom ! ! !

I think they used the same math for all the properties for loans ! !

Forever_Free's avatar

A normal tactic of an Organized Crime Family.

It took the IRS to bring down Al Capone too.

smudges's avatar

I suspect it’s not the only thing he exaggerates the size of.

elbanditoroso's avatar

He lies about the size of hands, the size of crowds, and I imagine the size of his pecker.

Why wouldn’t he live about his apartment?

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Yet in this article it shows that Forbes estimated the value in 2018 to be $160M. According to Wikipedia it cost $7M to build in 1927. That equates to $118M in today’s dollars. Improvements have been made since then. So where is the source of your claim of $18M?

seawulf575's avatar

And just curiosity: If Trump is valuing these properties higher than they are worth, wouldn’t he have to pay the extra tax on them?

elbanditoroso's avatar

The state/city of New York does property assessments – either annually or biennially – to determine what the value is of a property for tax purposes. Most states/cities do that; these are public documents and usually can be viewed online. (here for NYC )

The assessed value is not what is in question here. The city or state of NY’s value is for taxation only.

What Trump is lying about is his net worth (including the value of his apartment) – when he lied to make it higher, it made him look richer and more credit-worthy, and therefore it would qualify him for larger loans from various banks.

Further, it made his companies look more successful than they really were, which is fraudulent representation.

Bottom line: this misrepresentation of wealth, which has nothing to do with property tax.

JLeslie's avatar

@ebanditoroso Usually, an appraisal is done when taking out a mortgage or credit line on a property.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@JLeslie yes, but that’s for the loan/mortgage. The city does it annually for tax purposes/

JLeslie's avatar

@elbanditoroso Right, I realize that. I don’t know if it’s annually in NYC, but I realize the city/county (city and county are the same entity for Manhattan). When I lived in TN it was every 3 years there was a new appraisal, where I live now I’m capped under homestead so the county appraiser does nothing basically, I pay on $220k and my house is worth $500k.

The news keeps making it sound like Trump lied about the value for tax purposes, in other words undervaluing it, and then overvaluing it for loans. Are they talking about property taxes, or taxes on a sale? Trump doesn’t get to decide the assessed value done by the county unless he specifically challenged it or somehow lied about square footage to the county.

seawulf575's avatar

@elbanditoroso I understand the taxation valuation. And it is not physically checked every year. They make adjustments for several years based on what the market is doing and how homes are selling, but not on the specific property. Every few years they start getting the hint that the values are either over or under what is real and they go out to do a physical appraisal.

But again, it really doesn’t matter what TRUMP says the value of his property is, it matters what the bank assessment values it at. That is where everyone one of you folks fall flat. If you go put in for a home equity loan and tell the bank it is worth 10x what it really is, do they just accept that and give you the loan? No they do not. They will get an appraisal done to see what it really should be worth. That is what they base the loans on.

And the other part you are missing in your scramble to crucify Trump is that it makes not one whit of difference. If he gets the loan and pays it back there is no victim of anything. If it makes his companies look more profitable, same thing. He has to show through accounting reports how the property and performance has increased or decreased. Getting a loan on your home doesn’t reflect spit on your business. If you take the loan and sink it into your business it can help increase the value of your business, but it still has to be accounted for. Anyone investing in his companies has the right to see all these figures. And if they aren’t taking it in the shorts for their investments, again there is no victim.

You are struggling to fit the narrative into the facts. That is where the left often fails. Facts are facts. Facts SHOULD tell you what reality is. Reality should tell you what the narrative is. But the left has reached the point where they determine what reality they want in any given moment and then want to make the facts bend to their desires.

jca2's avatar

Should we assume that Trump, a real estate mogul, doesn’t know the difference between a house or condo that’s 10,000 square feet and a house or condo that’s 30,000 square feet? If you think that someone who has been in the real estate business for decades doesn’t know the difference between that, I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Pennsylvania haha.

JLeslie's avatar

@jca2 Exactly right! I don’t understand such a HUGE difference in square footage.

elbanditoroso's avatar

so @seawulf575 – basically you are saying that lying is OK as long as no one loses money.

Is that really an honest way to live?

Forever_Free's avatar

Trump lied intentionally to get a higher ranking on Forbes as well as get preferences on banking rates.
He will end up being the King of Nothing

Blackwater_Park's avatar

IMO it’s up to the banks to verify this information. I have to assume they did not care that much and quite frankly, there likely was collusion between Trump’s businesses and the banks to get these deals cut. That’s just how they made paperwork look as to not raise database flags on the bank’s ledger. With Trump’s hard ties to Las Vegas and the fact that Vegas is essentially mafia run, you have to assume that this is just part of that network also. Even outside of this, people like Trump don’t play by the same rules us peasants do. Think people like Pelosi haven’t done deals like this? Trump is not unique here. Insider trading is much worse than this if you asked me, but I think this sort of thing is just rampant with the power elite. We would all be disgusted if we knew how deep it really goes.

seawulf575's avatar

@elbanditoroso No, I’m not saying it’s right. I’m saying it is basically a victimless crime in this case and not fraud. I could say my house is worth a million dollars and if I could find a bank that would take my word for it I’d be surprised. I’m saying that there are many steps between what Trump says and what the bank says before they give him a loan. Lying is not right, I get that. But how is it fraud if the bank approves a loan (following their procedures) and then gets that loan paid back?

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 I haven’t seen anything that shows Trump tried passing it off as 30,000 sqft because, as usual, no one on the left supplied a citation to back their claim. But in the end, the question remains the same: if he is getting a loan for this property, what did the bank say the property was worth? That is the final determination. Not what some judge says, not what the tax valuation is, not what some political pundit says…what the bank that is loaning him money says it is worth. And worth doesn’t necessarily depend on square footage.

jca2's avatar

A quick Google search found many links that talk about the size difference. As requested, here is one (Newsweek from last year):

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-tower-apartment-size-value-letitia-james-1670655

seawulf575's avatar

@Forever_Free It’s interesting. I just ran a search and came up with this property that shows a 2 acre plot, basically in the same area as Mar-a-Lago that is selling for $150M. That’s just land. Mar-a-Lago is 17 acres and has more development and amenities than this property. I’d be fully surprised if 17 acres of property that spans the island from the Intracoastal Waterway to the Atlantic Ocean in the Palm Beach area is worth and which is fully developed with a private country club is worth only $27M.

JLeslie's avatar

I keep thinking about watching Warren Buffet during his annual stockholders meeting. So many times he talks about trusting the people you do business with and being trustworthy and a good person. Especially when young people ask him questions, he veers off on that over and over again.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Finally! A link! Why do I always have to shame you folks into this? But again, reading your link, where is the crime? Who is the victim? So he claimed they were worth more than they were later determined to be? Or they were smaller than he claimed? Where is the crime? Who is the victim? The banks aren’t going to take his word for it. As for the valuations based on potential development of an area, that is, again, up to the banks as to whether they will accept those valuations. And has he defaulted on loans? Has he gotten a loan for the inflated value and then defaulted on the loan…giving up the property to the bank…so he could pocket the difference?

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575 You’re not shaming me as it’s not my post, and you know I always post links to what I am saying so there’s nobody saying I made it up. It’s funny you’re saying “why do I always have to shame you folks into this” when it is usually me or others here begging for you to post a link for your claims and you hardly ever do.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575 Has Donald Trump defaulted on loans? Why yes, yes he has. 278 million dollars in loans. Read my LINK! I love to post links!

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-287m-loans-did-not-233435951.html

LadyMarissa's avatar

Palm Beach County official’s assessment that the property was worth between $18 million and $27 million between 2011 and 2021 & he claims it’s worth over a billion. He did the same thing with the penthouse in NYC & the Bedminster property in NJ. He buried Ivana there & claimed the land was a cemetery. Now, her grave is so grown over that you can’t tell where she was buried.

I worked for an accountant in my younger days & we took the word of the financial statement to do our work. It was illegal to falsify a financial statement & the CPA had written proof of the info turned over to us. We did NOT do a line by line verification because that was NOT considered part of the service because crooks don’t pay for that kind of service!!! The accounting books were the same when it came time to do the tax return. It’s NOT that hard to falsify a financial statement & cook a 2nd set of books for the IRS & have your CPA verify both.

The banks won’t take YOUR word for the valuation, but they WILL take HIS mainly because they want HIS business!!! Deutsche Bank admitted as much. Now that they know the reality of his practices, they will NO longer back his loans. You don’t have to have a victim in order to have a crime!!! IF you listen to Michael Cohen, he claims to be a victim of the scheme!!! Back in the late 80’s 45 filed bankruptcy on over $900 million. Somebody was a victim there!!! Thinking further, I’m pretty dayum sure that the American citizens are victims when he underflated his net worth to keep from paying any taxes every year because he was a “brilliant man” because “smart men don’t pay taxes!!!

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Yet I have given 4 citations in this thread alone. 4 citations in 8 responses. Huh. When did you have to have to beg me for a citation? Amazing. Meanwhile all 10 other jellies have only put out 6 citations and several of them were off topic.

And the citation you gave shows nothing involving his apartment or any loans he got based on what he said it was worth. The citation you gave shows a dispute between Trump and a lending institution…one he said was using predatory lending practices. I don’t know if they were or weren’t, but it shows there was a dispute over their claims. And in the end they settled most of that out of court, writing off the last portion of it. Now, I’m not a real estate mogul, nor am I a lending institution. But it looks like the lending institution was making an investment loan. There wasn’t property put up as collateral. So we are back to the same questions: who was the victim and why did the bank give him a loan without their own appraisal of the property being put up for collateral? And did he pay those loans back? The OP seems to think he did. Do you know different?

seawulf575's avatar

@LadyMarissa If Trump had a property that was appraised at $10M and he claimed it was only $100k for taxes, you’d have a claim of a victim. But what is being accused here is that he went the other way with it…that he had a lower priced property and he is claiming a higher price. That would result in more taxes being due, not less. And still, changing the square footage doesn’t change a single thing. Appraisals are not usually based on square footage.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575 I was referring to other posts, where you’d make claims and not post a link.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575 A few posts up, you wrote “And has he defaulted on loans?” which was why I posted a link about him defaulting on loans. Whether or not it was settled out of court is besides the point. If you decide not to pay back a loan and it’s settled out of court, does that make it ok?

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Soooo….did he used the overstatement of the size of his apartment have anything to do with loans that he defaulted on?

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575 you asked a question, I answered it, now you’re asking if it has to do with the conversation at hand. You didn’t say it had to do with the conversation at hand. I answered it as asked.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 He didn’t claim a higher worth to the tax authorities, it was when he applied for a loan.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 And now I have asked another question you have dodged.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575 I have found that in discussing politics with you, you just don’t stop with the questions and the arguments, and I really don’t have time to answer everything you throw at me. Maybe you have a lot of free time for arguing but I don’t.

rebbel's avatar

@seawulf575 Are you a person that would wear a “Never Surrender” t-shirt, with Trump’s mugshot on it, in a pro Trump rally?
You know, the shirts that were printed right after he surrendered to the Georgia authorities.

mazingerz88's avatar

What do I think? Why wouldn’t
a pathological liar douchebag lie about the size of his condo?

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Yep, you usually quit when you get to the point where your views are being challenged and then you bail.

seawulf575's avatar

@rebbel Interesting you should ask that. I have a whole lot of nothing in the way of Trump gear. No shirts, no hats, no pins, no signs…nothing. I’ve also never been to, or even tried to go to, a Trump rally.

What I am is a person that is tired of the constant b.s. being thrown around about him. I got tired of it long, long, ago. The left has lied and cheated about so many things when it comes to Trump and yet they just cannot actually admit it. Someone says something that sounds bad about Trump and the left erupts with attitudes that make it “real”. They don’t actually check facts or, as you can see in this thread, fully understand what is being said. They don’t care. It’s Trump! It MUST be bad! Trump is arrogant, he is loud-mouthed, and not someone I would associate with in my personal life. But then, I don’t have to. But none of that is criminal.

Ignorance offends me. Inability to see or acknowledge reality fascinates me in the same way watching a train wreck in slow motion would fascinate me. And yes, I recognized your “contribution” to this discussion as rhetorical and sarcastic and basically nothing of value to the discussion. No answer was required. But since you are part of the problem I felt I would include you.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575 No, I quit when I feel it’s no longer a fruitful use of my time, or when I feel it’s a challenge to my solace and serenity. If you want to assume it’s for another reason, that’s ok.

LuckyGuy's avatar

Remember, He very successfully duped banks and their depositors out of billions by declaring bankruptcy 6 times on his over inflated real estate valuations and ventures. He has perfected the scam.

Here is a nice summary

Forever_Free's avatar

@seawulf575 there are so many listing out there (esp for land only) that are so far above their reality price. People are just phishing for buyers. In my little town that has 50% NYC second homeowners this is still the case even after Covid. Land offerings more than double or triple what they end up getting sold for.
I have a friend in town here that put his house up for $5.5 Million three years ago. It has steadily been lowered over that time to $3.3 Million now.
Listing price and reality is something very different.

Pandora's avatar

@seawulf575 You forget that banks are responsible to their clients who bank with them. Fraud is fraud. If a thief returns the item that they stole, it’s still theft. They are still punishable by the law. It’s possible also that banks don’t follow the same procedures with rich people as they do with simple homeowners. They may simply need some official-looking document from their accountant stating the value of their property. No matter how you try to paint it, fraud is fraud. If you and I did it on a much smaller scale, I’m sure we would face a harsher penalty than just paying some fine. We would face jail time.

Here is a link on just lying on a personal loan application. Now of course a person who has no respect for laws or rules may find this unfair and may likely find that white-collar crimes are no big deal but all crimes add up.

Think of it this way. What if he couldn’t pay back the loan and the banks couldn’t get their money. Who is left holding the bag? Taxpayers who have to bail these banks out. And if you let Trump off the hook then I guess we should let everyone off the hook. No one should ever have to tell the truth on a loan application. Why even have an application? Just go to a bank and swear you will pay them back on your honor. Fraud is fraud. Theft is theft. Murder is murder and lies are lies, and treason is treason. The laws should apply to everyone equally. Can’t deal with the consequences then don’t do the crime.

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora I read your article and it is interesting to me that what seems to happen is that lending institutions have procedures they are supposed to follow which includes verifying information the lendee supplies…but they decide they don’t want to for whatever reason. So really, the problem is the lending institutions. If I say I make $1M/yr and provide pay stubs that show I make only $100k/yr, did I lie or did I just accidentally add an extra zero? I provided the backing documents so it is likely it was the latter. If the bank grants me a loan on the idea I make $1M/yr because they didn’t follow their own policies, who really screwed up?

This plays into your question of what would happen if Trump couldn’t pay back his loan. If the bank didn’t do their due diligence and verify the information and then get into trouble because they rarely do their due diligence and need to be bailed out, it isn’t Trump’s fault…it is the laziness of the bank.

Pandora's avatar

@seawulf575 Wow, I mean no real offense but that seems like something a crook would say. It’s the mark’s /victim’s fault. Never the conmans fault for the con. Yes, banks have also gotten in trouble for not doing their due diligence, but like I said there may be other ways to provide proof for big businesses. Especially considering that sometimes they need quick funding to acquire a business. No one is going to sit around waiting for you to clear hurdles from a bank. They will move on to the next buyer who has cash in hand. Either way. You made the false statement. Banks didn’t make them make the false statements.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Part of the banks at fault was Deutsche Bank; they were in Trump’s pocket !
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/12/deutsche-bank-severs-ties-with-donald-trump

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora I’ve been told that I have to do due diligence a number of times. And I don’t have set policies…it’s just a really good idea. Like when you buy a house. You check it over to ensure there are no hidden faults the seller is keeping from you. You get a title check to ensure there aren’t multiple people listed as potential owners. Lots of little things to ensure you aren’t scammed. And if you don’t do them, you have a lot bigger headache trying to undo the damage. Banks have set policies. There is a reason they ask for all the information. They ask for personal information so they can run a credit check. They ask for proof of employment and income. If you are putting up a property as collateral for a loan, they have to ensure it is equal to or greater than the price of the loan they are giving out. All this is done to ensure, or be reasonably sure, they will get their money back plus the interest.

This is very similar to what caused the housing crash of 2008. The government pushed for banks to make loans without proper verification of ability to repay. This was done so that people that normally couldn’t afford a house could suddenly get into a loan they couldn’t afford. They gave loans to people that didn’t make enough to pay that loan back. That brought about the bank bail out that you mentioned earlier and which cost the US taxpayers a ton of money, not to mention cost individuals their homes or a big chunk of value in their homes. So the banks didn’t change their habits…they started violating policies again. So that makes them complicit in any dealings. In fact it makes them probably MORE criminal than the person overstating the size of their property.

Or are you supporting the banks giving loans without verification? You don’t see that as fraud? After all, you said it…US taxpayers can be the victims.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Fraud is FRAUD ! ! ! !

seawulf575's avatar

^^So the bank is committing fraud too?

Pandora's avatar

@seawulf575 No one is saying that banks are equally not responsible. Not a single soul. But it doesn’t mean the criminals who commit fraud in the first place should be given a free out-of-jail card. As it is, Trump isn’t even going to face jail time for this. Just monetary punishment and his license to do business in NYC. Something very much available to rich scammers but not regular people. You keep making excuses for breaking the laws. Fraud is fraud and it doesn’t change because the banks didn’t do their job.

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora Actually, YOU were saying the banks were not equally responsible. Remember? When you accused me of victim blaming? And still, the questions remains out there: Did he or did he not pay back the loans he got from his alleged valuation of his apartment? If he did, then what is the crime? And if the bank was in on it with him and he paid them back, who is the victim? And if they were just incompetent then why aren’t they under investigation for doing the same criminal activity they did before that cost taxpayers? Are they looking for another bail out?

mazingerz88's avatar

^^The fraud is the crime! Where are your senses? Lol

Pandora's avatar

@seawulf575 Nowhere did I say that. I said banks are not responsible for people who commit fraud. That part is not on them. Its also possible that they followed the rules and laws that regulate them. If I make a contract with you and I tell you that you must tell the truth and not hide any facts because you can be prosecuted then if you lie that is clearly on you. I didn’t make you lie. As I stated, it could be that banks don’t go around looking into rich people’s assets. They may just need some certified statements. Trump also runs a building business and could’ve easily paid off someone to provide phony papers and that may be legit in the banking world. I’m not a banker and I’m sure you aren’t either. Or hell Trump could’ve paid off the banking officer to look the other way. I’m sure if the bank did something illegal they will face consequences as well. But none of this has anything to do with whether Trump should face legal consequences. You are simply trying to make excuses for his behavior. We all get it. There isn’t a crime Trump couldn’t commit that you would believe unforgivable. Which leads me to believe you like criminals. Maybe because you engage in such activity. I have nothing further to say on this subject.

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora “Wow, I mean no real offense but that seems like something a crook would say. It’s the mark’s /victim’s fault. Never the conmans fault for the con.” Gee, how could I be so mistaken as to think you were saying I was victim blaming?

I get it. You got clocked on your claim and now want to deny you said it.

And now you are saying the banks are not responsible at all because they don’t look into rich people’s assets. ??? I’d think they would look MORE into them as they are usually giving larger loans to the rich people. And after all, as many jellies have tried to point out, Trump has a colorful past with business dealings. But hey, don’t look at his stuff, just give him a loan. That’s your belief? Please.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 The case is a civil case. Where’s the victim?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

The end victim will be the Trump Organization to the tune of $250,000,000 !

And loss of New York state licenses ! It will hurt their business and DJT’s ego.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie I understand that is your hope, just as it was your hope he would be put into jail for conspiring with Russia to steal the 2016 election. Funny how that isn’t a crime…to say an election wasn’t legit….when someone on the left says it.

But your answer shows the truth of the issue: There is no victim. The AG is bringing a civil case. First question should be “Why?”. And AG is supposed to prosecute criminal activity. Civil cases are for one party to recoup some justice from another. In the case you guys are so bunched up about there is no victim. Trump got a loan, he paid it back. The bank wasn’t hurt, Trump wasn’t hurt, the public wasn’t hurt. There is no victim. So who is suing? The Democratic AG. Why? That is a truly good question. It seems for political reasons. It looks like election interference, just like all the organized efforts to keep Trump from running for POTUS again.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Trump has already been declared having fraudulent business practices!

Fraud is fraud – - – again you think his wide ass is free to do anything to anybody.

Bet you wouldn’t your 14 year grand daughter to be alone with him.

The trial is to determine the amount of money to be paid, $250 million to $650 million.

. . . and who will be the receiver of the properties.

Pandora's avatar

@seawulf575 You are trying to twist my words and yes you were victim blaming. Maybe you should read what I wrote slowly or get a friend to help.

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora I cut and pasted directly from your own post. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way. Maybe you should try to rewrite it the way you really meant. Or get a friend to help. Because when you start off with “I mean no real offense but…” that means you were saying that was what you felt I was and you knew it was offensive. So gee…maybe you have no writing ability?

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Gee, I thought the trial was to determine if a civil crime had been committed. According to you, the trial is just to divvy up his property. Guess I learned something. Of course what you are saying is that it is a kangaroo court with complete political bias as the basis for it, but hey, you said it, not me.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“Justice Arthur Engoron on Sept. 26 said Trump committed fraud, finding “conclusive evidence” that he inflated his fortune by overvaluing his Mar-a-Lago estate, his Trump Tower penthouse apartment, office buildings and golf courses.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-appeals-new-york-judges-fraud-ruling-2023-10-04/

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie You are bragging about that like it is a good thing. You are showing ignorance here. The judge did, indeed, make that ruling. He also just retracted it. Why? Because it is illegal and ignorant. He made that ruling which basically said Trump was guilty before any evidence was presented, before Trump had a chance to defend himself, before anything. And precedence says that even if he is guilty, it would be a fine. Seizing personal property like this is unheard of and sets up the precedence that the government can come in any time they want, make a charge against you and then just seize your property without any due process. Yep, that ugly Due Process…you know…the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution?

By ruling as he originally did, this judge has shown complete bias, political corruption, and arrogance that he is above the law….that he can actually do whatever he wants, to whomever he wants, whenever he wants.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Bet ya it will be $650,000,000

seawulf575's avatar

Until appeals.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Trump Is Lying About Another Election Being ‘Stolen’ From Him — The One Still A Year Away !!

He is a liar. a cheat, a conman and people with questionable ethics and morals support him.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie What does that have to do with the case involving his apartment? It’s no secret you don’t like Trump. But you are really out there.

rebbel's avatar

@seawulf575 Much appreciated.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

He is a liar . . . .

He lies about the size of his hands, the size of his apartment and lies about his election loss.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^That’s not the bigger problem though. The tragedy is people believe him.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Which is the reason . . . “What does that have to do with the case involving his apartment? It’s no secret you don’t like Trump. ”

Can’t connect the dots because of Hero Worship.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie So Biden lies all the time. Does that mean he is automatically guilty of selling power to our adversaries? By your logic, it does. That is why you are so loony on this. You really have a love affair going with Trump. You think of him morning, noon, and night. Get some help!

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Know what’s funny about all the Trump “lies”? Those that categorize them are, themselves, lying. For example: Trump says the Russia Collusion claim is false and that he never worked with Russia for anything to do with an election. Yet places like the WaPo claim he lied about this. And every time he repeats it, they call it another lie. They tally up hundreds and hundreds of “lies” for that. Yet in the end, Mueller concluded that no Americans knowingly worked with Russia to interfere with the election. And following that you get the Durham report that shows that not only was the claim false, it was purposely made up by Hillary, the DNC, and the Obama administration to interfere with Donald Trump’s presidency.

So you have “fact checkers” calling something a lie using deceptive or outright false claims as their justification. Then, when it is proven they are wrong, they don’t go back to remove their claims from the tally they keep. Throughout the time WaPo was keeping a running tally of Trump’s “lies” it turns out that quite a few (thousands) ended up being true statements and the WaPo was lying, but keeping those thousands of true statements firmly in their tally of “lies”.

It is how the left works. And you eat it up.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie I also notice you avoided discussing how much Biden lies. Just in the lies that could concern national security he has demonstratively lied quite a few times. His claim that Hunter’s Laptop was Russian Disinformation was a lie. His claim that he never talked with Hunter about his business dealings or that he was involved with them in any way was another. The paper trail show he lied on both of those. But I know…he’s a Democrat so it must be Trump’s fault that Biden is lying so much.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Trump claims he has a better physique than Biden.

DJT is a lard ass from all the Mickey Dee cheeseburgers.

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